What is faith?

[Lhunithiliel]

This is not any provocation to the believers!!!

I myself am an Orthodox Christian...but to be one is a relatively new experience for me.
So tell me.....

What is it inside of your mind and soul to believe in a God?

I have grown up educated as an atheist ...But then all things changed and now I can believe or not in whatever religious views I want
Yet, being a Slav and as historically the Slavs have for centuries been Christians (Orthodox mainly), I have entered this ...."system" if I may call it like that.
I wish I could find the thought, the feeling...or whatever it is inside of me that I could call faith...Only that my mind seeks answers in order to accept the necesity of believing in a God....
What is faith? Faith in a God.

[Bethelarien]

For my English class last year, I had to write a definitive essay, and I chose to define faith. I can post it probably later tonight, if you wish to see my views.

[Bethelarien]

Okey dokey. Here's Bethy's nice little high school essay on faith.

As long as people are different from each other, there will always be varying opinions. Abstract ideas are at the very heart of these differing opinions. One such concept is faith. Some define it as simply a religious concept, while others say it goes even deeper than that, and is essential to the very survival of the soul. Faith, like so many things, can be perceived in a multitude of ways, though the most popular by far is the religious conception of it.

So what exactly is faith? A religious person would say that it is believing in God, even if people cannot see Him. Indeed, this is one of the most popular views of faith. However, it can also be seen as a principle of action. True faith moves the believer to both physical and mental action, causing one to look deeper into oneself, and to explore the outer reaches of one's knowledge and understanding. Faith can be compared to a tiny seed-it must be nourished and encouraged in order to grow. An example of faith is believing the sun exists even when it cannot be seen. When the sun cannot be seen, a person cannot know that the sun is there; yet they can believe it is. Faith is not a perfect knowledge of things. If someone has a perfect knowledge, there would be no need for faith, because he or she would know for certain. Faith is not merely belief; belief is passive, whereas faith promotes action. It is not just trusting in something or someone; it is trusting in them no matter what the circumstances.

Faith can also be defined as a virtue. It is a moral quality that many religious people seek to possess. Because of this, faith is largely construed as a religious concept. In many religions, faith is seen as an essential quality to have. People spend years in their endeavor to develop true and lasting faith.

The abstract concept known as faith can be extremely bewildering to a person who is endeavoring to possess it. He or she must hope for and believe in things which are not seen, but which are true. Faith is certainly not mere belief, as it pushes its possessor to both mental and physical action. It is not to have a perfect knowledge, for knowledge is not faith. In short, faith is a quality essential to a good life that should be earnestly sought after.

[Eriol]

Welcome, Lhun :D :)

I think faith is simply trust. Trust in God. God, as you know, is Love... He is also merciful, and just, but most importantly He is Love. So to have faith is simply to trust that God loves you and did a lot to save you, and to put your life into His hands for Him to guide.

It is not as easy as it sounds :(.

Remember my deep thoughts:

The object of our Faith is not a proposition, but a Person - St. Thomas Aquinas

And have faith in Christ the Person, not in theology.

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you Beth and Eri for your opinions!
Yet....May I address some of them...

Beth:
True faith moves the believer to both physical and mental action, causing one to look deeper into oneself, and to explore the outer reaches of one's knowledge and understanding.
But isn't that believing and having faith in MY true self and not in someone OUTside me?
Faith can be compared to a tiny seed-it must be nourished and encouraged in order to grow.
Why? Isn't it then forcing my mind to accept faith ?

Faith is not a perfect knowledge of things....It is not to have a perfect knowledge, for knowledge is not faith
I cannot accept this.... I guess, one has to be firmly walking on the ground in order to live better. If I have faith in smth. I have never known - then isn't it just an illusion? How to convince myself in illusions? They may turn out to be just this - illusions

Eri:
I think faith is simply trust. Trust in God. God, as you know, is Love...
There are different Gods, Eri, aren't there? Ages back people had pagan Gods and some of them were good and others - evil...Yet people worshiped them all ... praying to them for lots of things. But basically those Gods were some sort of people's personification of the forces of Nature ..So they were in fact worshiping Nature and its powers.
Then came the One and Only. And people were taught that he was the Allmighty.
Good. ...I can take that as a subject of the historical and the psychological development of the human mind as well as to many other factors.
But .... see...we are here speaking of God as a being, yet believers say he is not one! But they have faith in him as if he were!
Perhaps he is the personification of all the things that the nowadays man understands as good and everyone wants to have faith in good! Right?
Isn't it then just the ever-present hope that a human mind is "blessed" to have?
But I don't think hope is faith.
It must be sth. else. Sth. deep inside a human soul, sth. that has no words and no explanation - it is just there ...

So...What is it? How does it feel ?

So to have faith is simply to trust that God loves you and did a lot to save you, and to put your life into His hands for Him to guide.
I don't know much about what is said in the Bible ...Yet it is said there that "if you help yourself God will help you as well."
Good!
Then isn't it all again about MY-self? NOT about some OUTER force that I should have faith in?
I guess I am living up to this "canon" but.....it feels so lonely!
I hear what believers say, I see how believers live and I sometimes think that perhaps I'm wrong in not trying to understand that internal force that makes them solid as a rock in their concept of life.
I always doubt ....I doubt everything!
There is no black or white for me.... For I always think : "It depends!"
Am I right to think so?

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I guess I am living up to this "canon" but.....it feels so lonely!
I hear what believers say, I see how believers live and I sometimes think that perhaps I'm wrong in not trying to understand that internal force that makes them solid as a rock in their concept of life.

It's not an internal force: it is a person. Jesus Christ. It's not impersonal, spiritual, untouchable thing. It is there. It is a real person. You are never lonely once you realize that.

I always doubt ....I doubt everything!
There is no black or white for me.... For I always think : "It depends!"
Am I right to think so?

Well, if you ALWAYS doubt, you can't say that you ALWAYS think that it depends. There are only two alternatives:

1) You ALWAYS doubt. Then it NEVER depends, since you always doubt.

2) It depends. Then it is a sure thing that it depends; otherwise you would be certain that it is black (or white). You have one rock to cling to: the fact that it depends. The fact that you don't know. That is a fact. So you can't say "it always depends"; sometimes you have a clear grasp of a truth.

I hope that's not too weird :D.

And no, there are not different Gods. People have believed in different Gods, but that does not make them real. The One God would be real even if I did not believe in Him. We are not talking about beliefs, but about reality.

That is the major stumbling-block :(. To forget about beliefs and accept reality. Would it sound very odd to you if I told you that "believers" are less "believers" than "non-believers"? Because they are. A non-believer chose a belief, and tries to twist reality to fit into his belief; a believer chose to look at reality, and to believe in it. Or, to make it less muddled: a non-believer is deceiving itself, and a believer is not.

Someone once said that converting means coming out of the looking-glass world into reality. It is very accurate. The world is a looking-glass world if you don't look at reality in the face. And its face is God; or more precisely, reality is the face of God.

God is not "a Being", and He is not even "THE Being"; he is simply "Being". All that is, is through Him. He is not the king of the hill; He sustains the hill.

Keep on doubting; those who search shall find :).

[Lhunithiliel]

LOL.....Eri!!! Your post shall need more than one cup of coffee in this early morning in order to understand and comment...

But as I'm already having my second one, let me address a few things.
It's not an internal force: it is a person. Jesus Christ. It's not impersonal, spiritual, untouchable thing. It is there. It is a real person.
Where?.......... Only don't you now say "It's in you, Ross!"

As for the two alternatives to my statement "I always doubt" .... a true puzzle it was to understand your point... but after all.... you're just trying to cause me ever more doubts and in fact INcrease the level and the strength of doubting!
I hope that's not too weird
But it WAS!!!!! :p
The rest of your post made me all of a sudden get the sharp and rather unpleasant feeling that I'm living in the Matrix! ;) .... No! I'm serious! Because if I could understand you right, I live my everyday life, I walk in the everyday streets, I meet the everyday people, I talk about everyday things... Yet all this is NOT reality! ? ! ? :eek:

reality is the face of God.
Are you saying that reality is not what is around me - touchable, see-able, feel-able.... but I should look for it somewhere else?
WHERE, Eri?!!!!

Besides....Wasn't God a "real person"?! Well, YOU said it!
If reality is the face of God >>> God is a real person >>> :confused:

But.... we are shifting the subject!
I am looking forward to "hear" some confessions about how it feels to have faith!
Besides.... the more I think, the more I convince myself that in fact faith is that force in one's mind that makes a person actually DO things and make them happen.
So, if this is faith... then I guess it is an inseparable part of the common sense of a human mind, hence I have it as well!
But I am here looking for some answers about the faith in a God!

You know.... I have a very good friend of mine and she is very much like me with the only difference that she is a deep believer in God. Whenever she's happy or in deep trouble she says she turns to God. And she has often advised me to do so myself. .... Only .... it is that I do not understand all that!
Turning to God IMO does not mean really talking to an existing creature! And one does not need to run to the church for that either! It is as if you turn to the true self of you ....
So eventually it turns out that it is YOU that is your God! :confused: :eek:
From here on ...some other veeeeeery "peculiar" thoughts have come to my mind...but I am afraid people here might think I've got completely nuts if I post them! ;) :D

So........

Again.........

Tell me please, how does it feel to have faith in God? :p

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Tell me please, how does it feel to have faith in God? :p

I can only show it to you, as I'm trying to do ;); "explaining" it wouldn't work.

He is not "yourself"; if anything, he is "the other". Any other. He is the neighbor.

The emphasis on the personhood of God is to dispel the notions that God is a force, an energy, pure spirit, the Blob God. He may even be some or all of these things, but His personhood is much more important to us than these things.

I never said that reality is not what is around you. Quite the contrary; reality is exactly what is around you. And this is the face of God. It is not hidden; it is not something invisible to unenlightened eyes. It is clear for those who want to see. Do you want to see? Do you want to look at God? It can hurt. All of our petty faults are painfully exposed when we look at Him, even at the clouded face of Him that we can see at this point in our existences. We have plenty of darkness within, and it shuns the pure Light.

(Just a reminder of the use of "light" in a spiritual context -- remember that thread? :D)

Turning to God IMO does not mean really talking to an existing creature!

Well, He is not a "creature", but he is a Being; and he definitely exists. So turning to God means talking to a Being, a Being who loves you, a Being from whom every other Being derives. God is the supreme subject, Lhun... he can never be seen as an object. We can't look at Him "objectively". We are the objects; He is the subject.

I still hope this is not too weird ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

I can only show it to you
How can this be shown?:confused: What expression might it have?

Then....if the see-able and touchable realuty IS God, do you mean to say the whole material world IS him?

Jesus, Eri.... you have found a tough case with me! :o
Do I want to look right in the face of reality = God? Ha! I'm looking into it every single day!!!! And you're right when you say that it can hurt! Sometimes I don't want to go to sleep because I know that after the nigth comes the day when I shall have to face the same this reality = God!
No! I just can't understand this.
Have patience with me, Father, and try harder! :o

If God is a being - quite a material and existing one...again... WHERE?

And I STILL wait to hear about your personal experience of feeling faith in God!

I still hope this is not too weird
Guess! ;) :p

[Angoreth]

If I may be so bold as to come into this conversation late. I would like to say a few things. Of my personal experience in faith with God.

I have been to an acquire the fire and that is a convention where Christians gather together for worship over a four day period. When you first get there it is like, “Keep to yourself and put your money in your front pocket, lol” sorry bad joke. Any way the first day your given to get rested for an hour the go to the center where every one meets. The next day every one is gathered early for morning worship and there you let the music take you. And for me I let the music take me I felt like I wanted to cry but also scream because I didn’t know what was going on. I thought I was being stupid and I was over reacting. I started to feel really Hot even though it was pretty cold in the center and I started to get shaky. By then I was wanting to know what was going on, so I went to my youth pastor and asked him what the deal was? He said it was God moving through the music. I was like no way, yeah right. What ever you spiritual freak. I just went on an took it like I was getting sick. Any way that night when I went to sleep I felt drained like I had ran around a building fifty times. The next day it happened again though this time I cried a little( and keep this in mind, I am not one for emotion, before then I never cried unless I was stabbed with something. I was freaking out I thought something was wrong with me. They had an alter call and I went down not really knowing what to do. A woman that worked there came up to me and asked me if I wanted her to pray with me I was like,” O.k. sure what ever” she started going off saying dear lord we thank you for this girl coming here and choosing to hand her life and all she is over to you. By this time I was like o.k. this sounds odd maybe I should get out before it’s to late. Then she looked up at me and said something I will never forget. “You are forgiven, God loves you and never has stopped. You might feel out of place and lonely and you might not under stand. But if you give God a chance he will let you. He has been waiting for this moment a long time and has been saying all the time ‘Come home child it has never left’ I started to cry. Which again freaked me out more and I couldn’t stop it was like all the past hurt I have felt and guilt of past sin’s I never thought I would be good enough for God to hand out forgiveness. She then lead me through the prayer of salvation. No once it was done I am not saying an all miraculous ting happened and I was made new I am still walking out thing’s I have done. But then at that very moment I felt a weight of my shoulders and mind. I felt light headed and I felt like I was all clean inside( like I had nothing in me) I sunk to my knee’s and kept crying I couldn’t stop. She knelt own beside me and hugged me and said, “It is an amazing thing, salvation. It can bring a lost child home and love to a broken heart. I didn’t answer I was still crying ,lol. When I went to bed that night every one was surprised because I was all puffy eyed and red nosed and they were like” wow are you o.k.” OI just said leave me alone, cuz I felt embarrassed I was crying so much. That next day, when we went to worship time I was open I felt like when I breathed in the air itself was cleansed and like every thing was sanitized and there was nothing to take in except clean air and worship music. I sang the praise songs and told God I was sorry like the night before when I said the prayer of salvation and I felt like I didn’t need to any more. Just keep up with my vow to follow God from now on. Now just to let you know, being a Christian does not necessarily mean you’re a slave, it does mean you have to follow certain rules. But you are able to live a free life. I know Christian who smoke and God still loves them, it is a bad addition but God is willing to look past that. I know Christians who drink and God still loves them( It’s not cool to get drunk but just like having a beer with a friend is fine). God loves you even though you don’t believe in him, and you don’t see his love. God is all things and in every thing we do, like I write poetry I keep God in every poem I do, or I make it in an emotion I am going through at the moment. I let him in on all of it. Even though there are something’s I know I should and shouldn’t do, God still loves me and is willing to forgive me.

Hope that was what you were looking for. I am afraid that is the best I can explain my faith.
Love in him
Angoreth-

[Lhunithiliel]

Angoreth, thank you for sharing your experience with us!
Lots of tears! :p ...Kidding! :D

What you describe, however, is sth. people do experience often .... I have had those feelings and that unexplained crying in some cases.... But it never occured to me in ANY occasion even close to a church or some holy place.... And I do go to church sometimes! :rolleyes: But I can not feel any strong feelings when I'm in a church! Stupid me!!!
Sometimes, trying to find a way to communicate with the power...or ....the Being God, it just takes me to go to the beach to a quiet place in a quiet hour of the day...and there I sit and I ...contemplate and ... In fact, in those moments I manage to completely free my mind and I feel sort of .... "empty"..... Later, I realize this has in a way helped me get rid of negative emotions.

Can I call this the presence of God?

[Beleg]

Faith to me is very simple: belief in God and giving His word preference over every other thing. We [Usually] remember and pray sincerely to God [Atleast in my experience] when we are in a tight situation but if we recal God during our prosperous times and thank Him for His blessings and enrichment then that to me points out that we have a strong faith.

[Angoreth]

Yes, I agree Beleg. That is a good point.



Sth?



I could say that you might have been feeling the presence of God yes. Because even none believers it is said, can feel God at certain moments. I think right there He is showing himself to you in your comfort. You dont have to go to church to know God, as long as you know he is lord and you except him in your life
(prayer of Salvation) you are intuned to the Lord, so to speak. But thats not it you can't get saved and think it is a free ride. Kinda like a job when you get a job you have to keep up with it and make sure you know what is going on. As if you were to get saved, a good thing would be to go to church( even if you dont feel those exsperiance there). I go to church every sunday and I dont feel any thing, it is only when I go to special events and every thing there is truely heart felt, you know? Because some people go to chruch becasue they feel they have to, but that is more for Christian fellowship to be aroudn other Christians and have a good influence. You see what I mean? Some think the prayer of Salvation is just a thing to get saved, but it's not just that. It is showing you know God is there and you are wanting him in your life where you feel void.
when I say this please don't get ofended. From what very little I know about orthodox christianity, the rituals seem to me would happen your relationship with Jesus and not help it get better. All of my freindships are based on faith and freindship.

Faith; I have faith that if I'm in trouble I can count on my friends to help me the best they can.

Relationships; We hang out together. spend time together. We know eachother. And as we spend more time together we know eachother better.

Structured 'friendships', where I have to be careful what I say, so I don't offend someone. Or I have to approach them thru a specific protocal, I don't call these people friends. These are acquaintances. God doesn't want acquaintances, He wants friends.