Noldondili

[Nóm]

Wouldn't it be fun to have a group of us Noldor fanatics together working on Noldor topics?

Maybe eventually put together a Noldor webpage with genealogies, etymologies on the names of the Noldor, a paper of the overall history of the Noldor from their Tatyar origin to Galadriel's departure from Middle-earth. Perhaps a chronology that is as completely as can be. We could also put together a Noldor FAQ. Paper on Noldorin culture and customs, as well as enteries for major events such as battles, and each Noldorin elf that is known. These entries could be as extensive as possible. The lay-out for this information can be figured out later, I guess. We'll decide on something efficient. But for now we can keep the information here at TTF, and bother about a webpage later.

An important thing is that we use only Tolkien's writings as our source (unless for special situations which may come up?), and will cite or give our sources when presenting information for entries. Speculations or opinion should be clearly distinguished as such.

So far it's only me. I am hoping to get a good writer in on this so people like me can have someone look things over for grammer and give suggestions for better wording. Any ideas are welcome. I am thinking no deadlines or schedules really... just contribute when you can, as you like.

We could use any or every Noldor fanatic! Who wants in?


Noldondili?

I get the name Noldondil using Note 19 in Quendi and Eldar:

"In Q Eldameldor, S Elvellyn. That is, 'Elf-lovers'. The words Quendil, Eldandili, though not exluding affection and personal loyalties, would have implied also deep concern with all lore relative to the Elves..."

and Note 10 includes: 'Elf-friend' would have been more correctly represented by Quen(den)dil or Eldandil.

If this is not correct please let me know so I can get the thread title changed so I don't look like too much of a moron for long. The only other thing I can think of would perhaps be Noldili since the 'den' is cut out of Quendil, but the 'dan' is not cut out of Eldandil... so that's it.

[Khôr’nagan]

Interesting. I will definitely participate, though I warn you: I am currently in school, and I have very little opportunity to even go online, much less doing research and posting it. I will do what I can when I can, but that might not be too often.

[Nóm]

That's good. Every bit adds up. You're welcome to drop by and add something whenever you like.

[Lhunithiliel]

Nom, I'm in! :)

You know well my "obsession" with FirstAge ;) :)
I will be delighted to discuss every and all points about accumulation of such information. And of course - participate in the process itself as much as I can.
As for a future possible Web page - that would be just GREAT!!!

OK.... Count me in and let's start think and discuss stuff.
What to begin with?....Hmmmm. I guess, first of all - organization, organization, organization! :p

And one more thing...... Can I add "Nildolil to my sig. ;)

[Nóm]

Yes, another Noldondil! But you might not want to put it into your sig until someone with lots of Quenya knowledge can confirm it is correct. Just a matter of not looking more foolish than we have to. :p

This is my general vision for the organization of the information to be posted:


One thing we could start right away is doing entries for characters and events.

For the characters we can open one thread. An index keeper can open the thread and maintain an Alphabetical list of characters. Anyone can then post character entries in that thread. The index keeper would link the names in the character list to the post which contains that entry. For now the most common names can be used, and later on the addition names can be added.

Some people will have to gather all the etymology information which can then be added to the entries. This is because not everyone has all the books to get that information from.

The exact same thing could be done with events. An index keeper.

Any minor discussions or suggestions can go into these threads, but some things may require a long discussion in which case a person can open up a thread for that.

We might put together a list of all sources... that is the texts within the HoME books as well as LotR, Letters... and any other books published with J.R.R. Tolkien writings in them. Then assign a number to each one of these. In this way the entries can simply have numbers inserted into them at the point where infomation is given. This will make for easy and unabtrusive reference to sources. In fact a thread needs to be opened to discuss this now.

general essay type writings on the Noldor, such as a laws and customs one, can be placed in their own thread and opened for discussion.

In addition to the encyclopedia type information and articles, we can also have any general writings on the Noldor, such as 'Why I love the Noldor' or 'How I imagine the Nirnaeth' but this stuff should not be mingled in with the other information.

All of those things are pretty straight-forward in most cases.


As for the chronology... someone can put one together and start a thread with it, and then anyone else can post in suggestions and additions to be made to that first post. Here things will get a little more complicated in some cases, but those can be disucssed in the thread.

So threads that can be opened next would be:

Characters

Events

Chronology

Sources

Chronology should be opened by someone with Annals of Aman and Grey Annals in HoME X and XI. Anyone else who knows the Silmarillion and who knows how to make links could start the others.


This is just what I have mind, what you do think?

[Nóm]

I started a thread on Noldondil over in the languages forum. Cian suggested Sindarin, and though I prefer Quenya, at least we know the Sindarin is approved by someone with his level of knowledge... so we're safe to use Mellyn-in-Gelydh 'Friends of the Noldor'. Sound cool?


Aegnor
Amrod
Amros
Angrod
Aredhil
Arminas
Caranthir
Celegorm
Curufin
Ecthelion
Edrahil
Erestor
Feanor
Finarfin
Fingolfin
Fingon
Finrod
Finwe
Galadriel
Gelmir
Gelmir
Gil-galad
Gildor Inglorion
Glorfindel
Guilin
Gwindor
Idril
Lindir
Maedhros
Mahtan
Miriel
Orodreth
Rumil
Turgon
Voronwe

(list also includes those who are likely Noldor)

Thats off the top of my head and probably missing a few. In addition it only includes those mentioned in LotR and The Silmrillion, for now. So some of the work is done for whoever ends up keeping the Characters index.

One thing yet to be worked out is what exactly we should say on people like Gil-galad, Findis, Argon... who are either not mentioned in The Silmarillion or who have a different parent in it... or who burned up in a ship in a late writing but not in The Silmarillion. *sigh* The inclusion of certain information from later writings given in HoME is indeed a bit tricky. I am going to invite Inderjit, and hopefully a couple other who are aware of this issue will join us and we'll figure something out. If someone doesn't know of or has not read the later writings in HoME, it's not a problem as far as joining us and contributing, others can fill you in or take care of that stuff.

It has entered my crazy mind to maybe eventually include elves even back to BoLT material... but I'll see what you all think on that eventually. Could get complicated, I suppose. ;) I sort of envision this thing as a guide to the Noldor throughout the external history of the writings too. But we'll see what others think on that and not get too far ahead quite yet.

[Inderjit S]

I'll join I'n I'll see about Argon etc in my next post

:)

Heres a intersting theme-what about 'enigmas' in terms of parentage or specifically possible desendants of Finwe, apart from the ones named. i.e:

Gildor Inglorion-'Inglor' 'Ion' Scion of Inglor-Inglor early name for Finrod. Claims to be of the 'House of Finarfin'. Is going back to Aman.

Others to consider, Glorfindel (Last Writings, said to be 'kin of Turgon', from a 'house of princes'),

Voronwe (Of Tuor and Fall of Gondolin, claims to be kin of Turgon. Son of unamed Sindarin lady, who is related to Cirdan. Father 'Aranwe', which means 'King' (Aran) and 'We' Which is used as a suffix to several names, but is said in the Shibboleth of Feanor to represent 'person'. Could aranwe, be the son of Lalwende, daughter of Finwe who was said to have gone to M-E and been close with Fingolfin. Nothing said about marriage or children in Shibboleth or LQ II. Prob. with this-Lalwende going to M-E was not yet around when 'Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin' was written, nor were any daughters of Finwe at least , until LQ II (1958/9), it is hinted that Irime may have gone to M-E, or maybe Tolkien dropped her from the genealogies at the time? Lalwende going to M-E discussed in Shibboleth of Feanor. Maybe it's just obscure wording by Tolkien?

With regards to BoLT Elves, or more specifically FoG-What about certain names given in there that don't fit in with later meanings. i.e 'Rog', lord of the House of Hammer of Wrath here means 'doughty, strong' but meaning changed to 'demon (hence Balrog) C.T notes in footnote to discussion of FoG that his father would almost certainly drop this. I think BoLT should be left for later anyway.

[Khôr’nagan]

I'm pretty good at Quenya, (mostly because I downloaded a dictionary of it).

Noldoron ---- "of the Noldor," the genitive plural form of Noldo, the 2nd of the Three Kindreds of the Eldar.

-(n)dil ---- Literally "friend," plural form -(n)dili

Thus, Noldorondil is "Friend of the Noldor," plural form being Noldorondili, meaning "Friends of the Noldor."

The problem with Noldondil is that it means literally "Friend of a Noldo," not "Friend of the Noldor." See where you made your mistake? You need to have the Noldo plural, otherwise you'd be talking about being the friend of a specific Noldo. However, I am almost (almost because nobody's perfect, and mistakes do happen) possitive that Noldorondil(i) is the correct form. So, now you have a Sindarin expert's phrase and a kid with a Quenya dictionary's phrase, so you can pick and choose (or have both) as you'd like. Personally, I like Noldorondil(i) better...

[YayGollum]

Hm. This sounds cool. Even though elves are way too sickeningly popular for me. I'm more interested in helping out with that achingly informative webpage idea. You people can do all of the research and find out all of the facts and things about every little piddly thing while I add my pithiness. I wish that these little IMy things would work over here, or I'd explain myself better to the Confusticated lady. oh well.

[Khôr’nagan]

Well, the following Elves are all of the House of Finwë:

Amrod
Amras
Aredhel
Arwen
Caranthir
Celebrían
Celebrimbor
Celegorm
Curufin
Eärendil
Eldarion
Elladan
Elrohir
Elrond
Elros
Fëanor
Finarfin
Finduilas
Fingolfin
Fingon
Finrod
Finwë
Galadriel
Gildor
Gil-galad
Glorfindel
Idril
Maedhros
Maeglin
Maglor
Orodreth
Turgon

Of course, technically speaking, the Dúnedain are also of the House of Finwë and are Noldor, but this is just concerning the Elves of the Noldor (I think), so they don't really count. Although, I do find it funny how Aragorn is related (however distantly) to all of those High Kings and great Warriors of the Eldar. And what's more, he's also related to Lúthien and thus to the Maiar, so you could even say that Aragorn and Gandalf are distant relatives.