Round 7:GoS vs.GoiE

[Gil-Galad]

That is the judging thread of the Debate between The Guild of Scholar's Hall and The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil.
The judges are:
Gil-Galad -The Guild of Tolkienology-host-GoS
Snaga 1 -The Guild of Periaurs-GoS
Bethelarien -The Guild of Eves/Dwarves-GoS
Nom -The Guild of Outcasts-GoS
Ithrynluin -neutral-GoiE

This judging thread is not opened yet.I would like to ask the judges to post their decisions after I close the debate.:)

[Gil-Galad]

Ok,I would ask the four judges to post their opinions as soon as possible!
Enjoy the judging!

[Nóm]

Maybe no one in this tournament is really qualified to handle this question (which I was against by the way) but these brave guilds went for it. I did type up a long judgement... but think it doesn't need to be posted in full... enough trouble keeping them short as it is. Because of the nature of this topic, I am just going to list some main points and give in breif as possable a summary of the definitive point. By the way... I hope you guys will continue it, maybe even with it open to other members... because too much is still unanswered. If it is okay with the teams, then this debate might become a regular discussion thread. Maybe a mod can clone it, and stick it in Annals of Eldanyare with the opening junk cleared out and little note added to the front telling how the thread came to be, and that it is now open for all.

Not that I am qualified to judge this thing but here goes:

I vote for GoS whose entire arguement (perhaps except the weak attempt to invalidate the tale of Adanel, there was probably a better way to have done that) in addition to demonstrating thorough knowledge, made perfect sense to me, and all their points fit into a perfect whole without contradiction, (not too common in debates), in general went against the claim that Iluvatar should have done more for the new race of Men, to have prevented them from falling into Morgoth worship. This was the arguement that it really came down to for OiE... that Iluvatar should have prevented the Fall of Men.

Those GoS points:

1) Arda Marred to Arda Remade is greated than Arda Unmarred
2) Melkor was Iluvatar's instrument
3) Men had free will
4) Iluvatar did, according to the Tale... instruct men but they failed to listen
5) Iluvatar is God, so he pretty much can't be wrong
6) Less ignorance does not mean getting into less trouble/evil for men
7) The Valar were not expected to be perfect

All of this taken together goes against OiE's claim that men unfallen would have been better for their purpose, but it does so indirectly. GoS's case supports an idea opposite of this. It supports that if Iluvatar let men fall, it was just that: he 'let' them... he allowed it for some reason.

A lot of other lines of arguement went on. That Iluvatar was perfect because that is how Tolkien wrote it... but GoS took care of that claim. About Morgoth being Iluvatar's intent... GoS won out on that one. That Iluvatar making it plain the Valar should have went up against Melkor much sooner means that Iluvatar thought the Valar were insufficient, was proven untrue by GoS, (regardless of how irrelevant OiE came to claim the Valar were in all of this). OiE didn't hinder any of GoS's opening arguement. The only place where OiE really beat out GoS was their claim that the Tale of Adanel should be considered in this and have some validity... which was mostly done by pointing out that The Silmarillion was eventually made to be mannish.

But really, I view this as a fragment of a debate.. in which GoS came out on top, but that could change if this thing would be allowed to finish... either between the teams or open to all... this topic is too good for discussion and was debated too well to be abandoned.

[Snaga]

I am glad that Nom has saved me the trouble of putting into words the reasons why I also give the verdict to GoS.

I also feel the question was ill-advised, and made life quite easy for GoS. I really think that hosts must think more carefully about whether each side is sustainable before posting the topic.

Maedhros opened well, with the 'Eru knows best' position which frankly, withing the confines of Arda, is unanswerable. Arvedui's first post in which attempted to steer the debate OUTSIDE the confines of the mythos was the closest I felt OiE came to breaking the GoS stranglehold on the debate. This was original and intriguing, but it appeared that they were unwilling to follow through. GoS specifically argued that this line of argument was invalid, which I disagreed with (since all is fair in love, war and debates) but OiE tacitly accepted this. In that moment, their defeat became inevitable.

Congratulations particularly to Maedhros for his thorough and steadfast posts.:)

[Ithrynluin]

Ilúvatar was sufficiently involved in Arda. Why is that? It is because Ilúvatar is God and he can't be wrong. Simple.


It was quite easy to see that this was going to be the GoS's first/main argument. It is an obvious one. Though I don't think there's any absolute truth in this statement, and that it can still be disputed and proven wrong.

We never see Arda Healed coming to 'life', we never see Arda actually being healed and every wrong set aright - what if Iluvatar was mistaken all along? Should we believe him? ;)

I would liked to have seen something in this line of argument from the OiE: Iluvatar was not sufficiently involved in Arda. He should have been more involved, and prevented more evil deeds and tragedies from taking place, while Arda Healed could still
have been just as enriched and fair in the end as it was without the sufficient interventions of Eru. The OiE might have done this, though very vaguely and subtly, they never stated it outright.

I feel that OiE's first posts were very powerful and persuasive (as were the GoS), even though it 'is a dangerous position to take', as the GoS notes. ;)

This quote I think was very helpful:

Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it

Then this by Gothmog:

He had allowed Melkor to terrorise his children and did nothing to help them. He simply cursed them for believing what they had been shown.

Had Ilúvatar been sufficiently involved there is no doubt that he could have prepared Men better to deal with the lies of Melkor. All they had was a Voice that said little and a power that seemed to be able to do anything. Ilúvatar it would seem did not even give Men the opportunity to learn of their mistake and repent. No he just watched them take the wrong path and then turned his back on them and cursed them.

Excellent!

A good argument by baragund:

If Iluvatar wanted to spare his Children all evil, pain and suffering, why did he create Melkor in the first place? Wouldn't it have been so much easier if Melkor never existed and the Children could just dwell in bliss in Arda Unmarred?

And another convincing one:

The Children had developed in wisdom to a point where direct intervention would no longer be productive.

Then Maedhros makes what looks to be a strong post. He states:

This is a common and understandable mistake. The Valar are not perfect. They could never be. Only Eru is.


From whose point of view was Eru perfect? It is highly relative and it all depends on the eye of the beholder. I'm sure generations upon generations of Men in the far East who were deprived all their lives and corrupted and lied to by Melkor and Sauron would have preferred that Ilúvatar was more involved at some point! It doesn't just matter what happens in the end, what about up till then?

Another thing by Maedhros:

This is a legend of mannish origin which cannot be taken very seriously.


But weren't all the histories passed down to us by Men? Why should Andreth's story be doubted, but not the Qenta Silmarillion, the Valaquenta and the Ainulindale? I see this is tackled by Gothmog later on:

So if we cannot trust the traditions of Men we are left with the problem that nothing can then be trusted as all of it comes to us tainted by the stain of being of "Mannish Tradition". Therefore all is of equal relevance.

Then we have this quote by Maed:

He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil.

But does this offer any definite conclusion? Not really. It just tells us the way things work in Arda.

By baragund:

Regarding Melkor, Gothmog makes a fascinating assertion that it is not a given that Iluvatar created Melkor for the purpose of being evil.

But if Eru created Melkor for the sole purpose of being evil, was Melkor given a choice? Free will?

By Maed:

You can either give him the answers, or you can allow your child to grow by giving him the tools that he needs to make the homework for himself.

I agree Men were not given answers by Eru, and this is a good thing. But they weren't given any tools either, or any knowledge how to use them.

I agree that this is a complex subject to debate, and that one side seems to have it more easy perhaps, but I think that given more time to debate (and perhaps specifying the debate topic to make it more narrow) the outcome could have been different.

From my point of view, the Scholars debated extremely well, but the OiE team won me over by the narrowest of margins.

[Gil-Galad]

I would like to ask Bethelarien to hurry up with her decision,because I'm waiting for her and then I will post mine and close the judging.
Thus,I hope,finally Aule will be satisfied with me.;)

[Bethelarien]

Sorry for the delay in my judgement. I've read that whole thread so many freaking times I think my head is about to explode. Or implode.

I'm also very glad for Nom's long post. She said it all. Now I don't have to post all that, since she's already done it.

It was a very close call, as I can see both sides of this debate. But, for reasons stated in Nom's post which coincide quite nicely with my own views, my vote goes to the Guild of Scholars.

[Gil-Galad]

First of all sorry for the delay,but you know on Tuesday our beloved WM did some changes and yesterday I was busy.
I would like to thnak the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil and The Guild of Scholar's Hall for the wonderful debate they made.I really enjoyed it and think that it has been one of the best debates since the beginning of the tournament.

GOS decided to concentrate their time on several very interesting points.Some of them were pretty risky I think,but at the same time,their arguments were really strong.
-Nothing could be perfect-GOS mentioned it,stating that the Valar were not expected to be perfect.
- A very strong argument is the fact that Men had free will

One of the weak points is,as Ithy mentioned:Why should Andreth's story be doubted, but not the Qenta Silmarillion, the Valaquenta and the Ainulindale?

and really Ithy is right once again with the words about Gothmog's response.

Yes,I think GoS had to defend the easier side and they did it in the simpliest way.And sometimes the simpliest way is the better way.

[Gothmog]

I wish to give my thanks to the GoS and my fellow OiE members for a very interesting and enjoyable debate. Also Many thanks to the Judges for their time and their comments.

I congratulate the GoS for a well earned victory. :)

I just wish to comment on one point brought up by Snaga. It was not only for the host to consider the question. Both teams were given the option to reject the question. Both GoS and OiE thought about it and accepted it. ;)

[Snaga]

Indeed, that is very true Gothmog. In your place I think I would have been inclined to object, but you did not and chose instead to argue your corner. Balrogs must be more honorable than orcs!;)

[baragund]

Thanks to you too, O-in-E!! I enjoyed this debate immensely and it was a great learning experience as well.

I particularly appreciated the more genteel tone of this debate. It allowed much better focus on the material instead of trying to 'one-up' the other side.

Looking forward to having more discussions with you guys!:)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by baragund
Looking forward to having more discussions with you guys!:)
Me too.It was a real pleasure to read your debate!!That has been one of the few really intersting things in the forum for since the debate between GoT and GoS!!!!