Does your religious belief tell you to have Sundays off?

[Celebthôl]

Does it?

What for?

I know of a certain few people that do, and they don't come online, i have no idea what they do on Sunday's.
If you have Sunday off what do you do?

What is the point in it?

From what i see, its a waste of 1/7 of your life, do you have this Sunday off out of choise?

[Ithrynluin]

I know of a certain few people that do, and they don't come online, i have no idea what they do on Sunday's.

Why do they stay offline on Sundays? Do they consider it 'work'?

[Celebthôl]

I don't know, its something about their belief. . .

[Sarah]

nope, for jews it's saturdays

[Celebthôl]

But why?

Its a waste of 1/7 of your life which you cant get back, i mean you might want to really badly do something but not be able to because its your "day of rest". . .

And, what do you do on this "day of rest"?

[Idril]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Its a waste of 1/7 of your life which you cant get back, i mean you might want to really badly do something but not be able to because its your "day of rest". . .

Why is it a waste? I think it's a good thing, to have 1 day to not do anything - I guess if it's religious based, you'd need to worship. It would be a day to spend with family and friends, relax, read (Tolkien preferable) and forget momentarily about the rat race. There is nothing (short of life-threatening), absolutely nothing I can think off that must be done and can't wait.

Thinking about it.... I WANT 1 DAY A WEEK LIKE THAT!;)

[Celebthôl]

I have a collegue at work that is forbidden to work sundays, he misses out on double pay.

[Idril]

While that seems unfair, on the other hand at least he doesn't have to work on Sundays as many of us do. The reason double pay is paid on a Sunday (and most firms have stopped this now) is because it's unsocial and it's the Lord's Day. Whats more important - abiding by your religious rules or money.

[Celebthôl]

Well what if you need to work because you have a family of 3 kids and a wife to feed and you have to work loads to keep them in a healthy state, but you are also very religious. Then what?

[Idril]

You could only have 2 kids to feed instead? I know it sounds harsh and mean:(.

Double pay is compensation for working on the Lord's Day - simple as that. His problem is more that he's not being paid enough basic pay to adequately or comfortably support his family.

[Celebthôl]

So he has to give up a kid and deal with his poor predicament?

[Idril]

I did say that - but perhaps he should have stopped at kid no. 2. £ is a consideration when having kids.

[Celebthôl]

But not all kids are planned, it may have been an accident, but they didnt want an abortion, as they are humain.
They are still stuck with a 3rd child none the less, and i would love to see the person/people that could give up one of their children just because they think they shouldnt work on a sunday.

[Idril]

Is he claiming all his benefits if he's low waged? like Working Tax Credits and Child Tax Credit. They can be worth a fair bit. Apart from getting a second job - there's not much you can do. Hubby works Sundays and Bank Holidays and he doesn't get anything extra - as I said not many firms pay extra for Sundays now.

[Celebthôl]

(Before we go any further; this is hypothetical, not the guy I know. . . )

Well would the benefits meet his and his families needs?

[Idril]

Depends on what his needs are. But why should he have kids and expect others to support them either through benefits or a higher salary? We need to live within our means.

But we are drifting off-topic.;) we may get into trouble;):eek:

[Thorin]

I fail to see what the whole issue is with Sunday. Why can't people work on it? There is no biblical commandment or rule that Christians aren't allowed to work on Sunday. What exactly is the "Lord's Day"? Because Christ resurrected on that day? Okay. But how does that mean that you cannot work? The 4th commandment? You cannot appeal to the 4th commandment because it is talking about Saturday, the 7th day, not the 1st day. God established the Sabbath at Creation after 6 days of work and rested the 7th, thus ending the week. That is why there is the command to rest the 7th day. There is no such command for the first day, nor can the merits of the 7th be applied to the 1st. We are called to not work on the 7th day, not the first. Yet everyone seems to think that Sunday is the exact same as the "Jewish" Sabbath.

To even go and say that "The Seventh Day Sabbath is not binding for Christians anymore", still does not justify applying all the rules of the Sabbath to Sunday. I find it funny that most who don't work on Sunday still treat it as a holi-day instead of a holy-day. They go to restaurants, watch TV and all the other things on Sunday. How is that observing the "Lord's Day"? Either Sunday is exactly like the Sabbath, or it is not. So many Christians don't understand the Sabbath issue at all.

[Mrs. Maggott]

The proscription given in the Ten Commandments is to "Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy". Again, this is a commandment that is meant to help man, not God. When every day is like every other day, people frequently experience burnout, depression, melancholia and other effects of a neverending pressure to perform. While it is true that keeping the Sabbath holy means attending a religious service or some other acknowledgement of the existence not only of God but of higher and greater things than we generally meet in our day to day existence, its main purpose is to "break the cycle" of our daily lives and, for one day, give us the taste of another life. God as the "Manufacturer" has created us in such a way that we need some "time off" from our mundane activities. Most people are well aware of the value to our psychological and physical well being that comes about from what we call "vacations". Well, the Sabbath is God's "vacation", a time when we are supposed to abandon the daily grind and permit ourselves the luxury of a different lifestyle.

There was a time in the culture when all commerce (except perhaps pharmacies, movie theaters and ice cream parlors) was closed down on Sundays (the normal "Sabbath" in a Christian culture). However, in certain places in New York, stores were closed from Friday at sundown and didn't open again until Sunday for the Jewish Sabbath. There are still states which have "blue laws" on the books mandating that commerce closes down on Sundays. In fact, this acknowledged "need" for a break in the work week has lead to the 40 hour week and the concept of the "week end" (Saturday and Sunday) when many businesses, schools and government services close down.

Again, in just about all of the Ten Commandments, God is trying to show man how he can live his life in such a way as to suffer the least amount of disaster. It isn't a "deep Christian plot" nor is it an attempt to "foist" or "force" Christianity or any other "religion" on people. But off the top of my head, I cannot think of anyone who wishes to return to the seven day work week. Can you?

[Starflower]

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. Rom. 14:5-6

I think the important thing is what the person them selves regard as appropriate for them. If a Christian family feels that they should not work on a Sunday as it is considered Sabbath,then so be it, they are doing it to honor God. But the person who does not think he needs a day put aside for special worship does so because of his own convictions tell him so , he is not doing wrong in GOd's eyes.

[Celebthôl]

But really, does the huy who has Sunday's off, spend it all worshipping God?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
But really, does the huy who has Sunday's off, spend it all worshipping God?
God certainly demands all of us: that is, all of our hearts to love Him and all of our souls to obey Him, but He has never demanded all of our goods (10% is the going rate) or that we spend all of our time in ritual worship (when would we eat, sleep and work then?). It is obvious that He expected us to spend a part of the Sabbath with Him in worship (usually in some formal setting - church, synagogue etc.), but I doubt very much that He would frown upon the rest of the day being spent on pleasant pursuits! Indeed, even in such things it is possible to worship Him if we do whatever we do to His glory and in enjoyment of the life He has bestowed upon us.

Far too many people see God as a "spoilsport" who isn't happy unless we are unhappy or, at best, toiling away diligently at some "worthwhile" pursuit. There is a sort of "puritanism" in this attitude that has nothing to do with The Church or Christ. As it says in Ecclesiastes, for every thing there is a season - and that includes enjoying oneself (innocently, of course) and worshipping God.

[Celebthôl]

Which brings rise to the question:

Why must God be worshipped? (I know Lúthien has some incites into this)

And, I spend every day of my life having innocent fun and partaking in worthwhile pursuits, not just Sunday's.
Yes it is a day of rest, (and I believe it should be in the non-religious sense aswell) but that shouldn't stop people say coming on the internet, or playing a game of football, or even working. What if the person in questions idea of "worthwhile pursuits" is to work? Seems worthwhile to me. . .

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Which brings rise to the question:

Why must God be worshipped? (I know Lúthien has some incites into this)

And, I spend every day of my life having innocent fun and partaking in worthwhile pursuits, not just Sunday's.
Yes it is a day of rest, (and I believe it should be in the non-religious sense aswell) but that shouldn't stop people say coming on the internet, or playing a game of football, or even working. What if the person in questions idea of "worthwhile pursuits" is to work? Seems worthwhile to me. . .

God must be worshipped because, in the first place, He has demanded it. He is, after all, the Creator. He wants our "love", that is true. But the fact is that if we really knew Him (which only a very few on this earth seem to accomplish to the extent to which our poor, fallible minds are capable), we would WANT to worship Him. Indeed, medical science has discovered that mankind has the desire to worship "hotwired" into the system! That is why man has always worshipped something: nature, himself, the State, various "gods" or God Himself. Why, in our present age, we even have the "cult of the celebrity" wherein we "worship" movie stars or sports figures.

Yes, you may spend every day having innocent fun and pursuing worthwhile endeavors, but on "the Sabbath", the idea is to have different priorities. Remember (and perhaps you can't because you are too young), that it is only in the last 50 years or so that people did not work most of their lives with very little time for the matters of which you speak. Indeed, most people only had one day a week (the Sabbath) in which they did not pursue the "daily grind". We are a culture with great amounts of leisure time (although, of course, we don't think we are!). But I suggest you read about what occupied the day of the average man or woman even such a short time ago as the middle of the 20th century and you will find that most of the luxuries of daily life which we take for granted (frozen foods, microwave ovens etc.) were unknown and the ordinary daily activities of life (cooking, cleaning, shopping, raising kids, working at a job) took up so much time that the Sabbath was a welcome change of pace.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Starflower One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom. 14:5-6

I think the important thing is what the person them selves regard as appropriate for them. If a Christian family feels that they should not work on a Sunday as it is considered Sabbath,then so be it, they are doing it to honor God. But the person who does not think he needs a day put aside for special worship does so because of his own convictions tell him so , he is not doing wrong in GOd's eyes.
Another seriously misunderstood verse. As if Paul would reduce something as serious as a 4000 year old doctrine observed by Jews and Jewish Christians to a mere personal choice. The issue here was holidays that the Jews considered important. The feast days, the many celebrations that they felt was necessary. These were not necessary anymore because many of them pointed to Christ. They had cultural significance in themselves, however, and Paul was saying that if you want to celebrate it, go ahead. The Sabbath, however, was not involved in this commandment because observing or not observing the Sabbath was not an issue for the Christians and worshiping on Sunday wasn't an issue for the Christian church until around 150 AD.

The Sabbath is a day when we can set aside our worries and cares and dedicate it to the Lord. It should be different than all the other days. God calls us to put away some time for Him so He can more fully work His redemptive work in us. It is not only a necessity for the human race, as Maggot has pointed out, but it also is a matter of obedience. God set aside the seventh day not because He needed the rest, but because He wanted us to fellowship with him away from the rat race of life. It is a celebration and remembrance of Creation and redemption.

[Bethelarien]

According to Exodus 20 vs. 8-11, the Fourth Commandment says:
[/quote]8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.[/quote]
According to this, the Lord has commanded us not to work on His holy day, the Sabbath, which for Christians is Sunday.

Of course, it all depends on your perspective of what "work" is.

For those of us who belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "work" can be defined as all activities we would do during the normal week, which includes parties, movies, working, ball games, and other things that can be done for enjoyment; neither do we patronize businesses on this day, because that is forcing others to work as well. We do do necessary things, i.e. cook, drive, blah blah blah. But the Sabbath is a time for us to worship the Lord our God, and to spend time with our families.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Most probably, the definition of "work" at the time of the bestowing of the Commandments - and for centuries thereafter - had to do with those activities that constituted daily chores that could be otherwise eliminated or what a man did to earn a living. Obviously, things that had to be done (feeding one's family and any livestock) were performed, but in many instances, Jewish wives cooked the day before for the Sabbath and merely served what had already been prepared.

However, the definition of "work" - and the cessation therefrom - has obviously changed radically over the centuries. What bothers me most of all is to see "business as usual" by just about everyone (myself included). It is especially irksome to see various athletic events for children - many of which are sponsored by "churches" - being held on Sunday even in the morning! When you add this obvious disregard for ordinary Sunday morning worship to what is happening to so called "religious" holidays such as Christmas and Easter/Pascha, it becomes quite clear that any consideration of "the Sabbath" as being a "holy" day has gone by the boards. I would suggest that some people go back and watch "Chariots of Fire" to see what the Sabbath used to mean to people of faith in Western culture. It can be illuminating!

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
It is especially irksome to see various athletic events for children - many of which are sponsored by "churches" - being held on Sunday even in the morning! When you add this obvious disregard for ordinary Sunday morning worship to what is happening to so called "religious" holidays such as Christmas and Easter/Pascha, it becomes quite clear that any consideration of "the Sabbath" as being a "holy" day has gone by the boards. I would suggest that some people go back and watch "Chariots of Fire" to see what the Sabbath used to mean to people of faith in Western culture. It can be illuminating!
Skipping church to play, I can understand no matter what the day. The problem here, though, Maggot, To most christians, Sunday has been only a day to go to church. And rightly so, for there is no command to keep Sunday holy in any way in the scriptures.

The first day is not the Sabbath, therefore the demands of the Sabbath cannot placed on Sunday.Most Christians worship on Sunday because the Church 'changed' it's sanctity in the second century. It was to first of all commemorate the creation of the Sun on the first day of the week, but also to honor the resurrection of Christ. There is no biblical justification for any transfer of the Sabbath's virtues to the first day of the week.

It is one thing to say that Sunday worship should occur because Christ rose on that day. It is a whole other issue to say that Sunday is the new Sabbath day. Both days are different in function and purpose. Even if the Sabbath was done away with and Sunday in its place as a day of worship (which is unbiblical and quite debatable - another thread perhaps?) it doesn't mean that the sanctity of the Sabbath commandment was transfered to Sunday as well. To do that is to make the change redundant. If the observation of the days is exactly the same, why change it? If the Sabbath was only for the Jews, then the rest of the 10 commandments are as well. Most people do away with the commandments because they have a problem with the Sabbath.

Again I say, the days are different. The seventh day was created by God for man at creation week for man to cease from his labors and weekly routines. It was to be a reminder of God as Creator and Redeemer. The first day was used by 2nd century Christians as a commoration of light being created and Christ's resurrection, but it was never to be treated as a Sabbath for the Sabbath was kept along side with Sunday by Christians until the 4th century.

[Mrs. Maggott]

From the beginning of the Church, Sunday was considered a weekly "Pascha" or "Easter". That is why, in the Orthodox Church at least, one was not permitted to kneel on Sunday because one is not permitted to kneel on Pascha. Sunday began on Saturday evening (as it continues to do in the East) because of the Jewish understanding of the day beginning in the evening as presented in Genesis (It was evening, it was morning, the first, second, third etc. day.) The Church also consecrated Sunday as "the Sabbath" for that reason, replacing the Jewish Saturday, the last day of the week. Sunday was considered "the eighth day - or the first day of the new creation - and, like it or not, was represented as the Sabbath virtually from the beginning of the Church.

The laws forbidding commerce on Sunday were called Sabbath or "blue" laws (have no idea about the latter term) but the day itself was important. Observing Jews who closed their business establishments on Saturday were not permitted thereby to be open on Sunday. That means that it was not simply a matter of having to be closed once a week. Sunday itself was important from the point of view of a generally "religious" culture as this country once had. The termination of "blue laws" and the end to a mandatory "day of rest" was the result of a declining religious influence in the culture. In areas where religion is still strong in the populace, you will find that such laws remain on the books and, furthermore, they are observed.

As to whether you believe that "play" constitutes an acceptable alternative to worshipping God, well that is, as you noted, your opinion. However, the veriest flip through Scripture and the doctrines and traditions (both capital and lower case "Ts") of the Church might indicate that your view is not widely held. To my mind, we have more than enough opportunity to "play" in our culture. It might do us all a great deal of good to spend less time suiting ourselves and more time (if, of course, we present ourselves as "godly" people), attempting to suit God.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
From the beginning of the Church, Sunday was considered a weekly "Pascha" or "Easter". That is why, in the Orthodox Church at least, one was not permitted to kneel on Sunday because one is not permitted to kneel on Pascha. Sunday began on Saturday evening (as it continues to do in the East) because of the Jewish understanding of the day beginning in the evening as presented in Genesis (It was evening, it was morning, the first, second, third etc. day.) The Church also consecrated Sunday as "the Sabbath" for that reason, replacing the Jewish Saturday, the last day of the week. Sunday was considered "the eighth day - or the first day of the new creation - and, like it or not, was represented as the Sabbath virtually from the beginning of the Church.It wasn't until around 150 AD that Sunday worship or any change became an issue. Barnabas and Justin Martyr appealed to Emporer Hadrian to recognize Christians as separate from the Jews. This appeal was put forth in the form of Christian's recognizing Sunday instead of the Sabbath The reason they gave was because light was created on the 1st day of the week, not because the Sabbath was done away with. Why would he do this? It was basically because of the anti-semitism many Christians had towards the Jews and because of the persecution of the Jews by the Romans. The Romans associated the Christians with the Jews through many areas, the greatest of these being Sabbath. To avoid this, Justin Martyr claimed that Christians were going to be worshipping on Sunday. By doing this, it was easier to convert the Romans easier (though this wasn't brought to Hadrian, of course) from Paganism.

One of the main Jesuits at the Gregorian University in Rome admitted that research does not support any apostolic change or substitution, but that this occurred well after the last apostle died.As a matter of fact, records go back to the Christians in Jerusalem, the hub and center of Christianity at the time, who were observing the seventh day Sabbath as was commanded well into the 4th century. Your comment:
Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
The Church also consecrated Sunday as "the Sabbath" for that reason, replacing the Jewish Saturday, the last day of the week. Sunday was considered "the eighth day - or the first day of the new creation - and, like it or not, was represented as the Sabbath virtually from the beginning of the Church.Is totallly without universal support or merit and only shows where the church moved away from scripture and apostolic authority, not that the change of the day was divinely mandated.
Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
As to whether you believe that "play" constitutes an acceptable alternative to worshipping God, well that is, as you noted, your opinion. However, the veriest flip through Scripture and the doctrines and traditions (both capital and lower case "Ts") of the Church might indicate that your view is not widely held. To my mind, we have more than enough opportunity to "play" in our culture. It might do us all a great deal of good to spend less time suiting ourselves and more time (if, of course, we present ourselves as "godly" people), attempting to suit God. Wait a minute here, Maggot. I'm agreeing with you. The issue I have is not how the Sabbath is to be kept, but which day is the Sabbath. I agree that the Sabbath (whatever you hold it to be) is not to be idly wasted on play and other sources of entertainment.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Sorry. Misread your post there (eye medication is making on-line difficult for me). Please accept my apology.

Certainly, nothing in the beginning was "universal" in the Church. Indeed, the Constantinopolitan-Nicene Creed wasn't even written until the 4th Centry and many different "churches" had many different practices. The "Jewish" churches were more likely to follow Jewish traditions while those which arose in previously pagan areas were more likely to embrace those things (like the Sunday sabbath) that were directly connected to Christ. However, by the 4th Century, the Church was indeed becoming "universal" in its concepts and most of its rituals. But it was a decidedly "messy" process, I agree.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
The "Jewish" churches were more likely to follow Jewish traditions while those which arose in previously pagan areas were more likely to embrace those things (like the Sunday sabbath) that were directly connected to Christ. However, by the 4th Century, the Church was indeed becoming "universal" in its concepts and most of its rituals. But it was a decidedly "messy" process, I agree. But that doesn't make any sense, especially after Paul. Paul said that there was neither "Jew nor Greek, rich or poor etc". A Christian is a Christian whether he be from Greek origin or Jewish origin. If Paul is saying (as some churches say) that the law and/or the Sabbath was done away with and Sunday replaced it because of the resurrection of Christ, then no Christian should be keeping the seventh day. If the Jewish Christians were worshipping on Sabbath, then the Sabbath was not done away with for the Christian and was still binding for the Christian no matter his origin, or at least the early post apostolic church believed it.

You are right about one thing. The pagans did cling to Sunday more quickly because they worshipped the Sun god on Sunday. That was a deciding benefit for the church in emphasising Sunday over Sabbath: to easily convert the Romans and Greeks to Christianity. Because of this compromise we also have paganism influence in the current forms of Easter and Christmas.

However, if the apostles followed the Sabbath, and Paul followed the Sabbath (and there is more evidence in scripture for that then for any Pauline-sanctioned first day practices), and the Jerusalem Christians followed the Sabbath and God commands us in the scriptures to hallow the seventh day, and there is no sanctity for the first day of the week by the disciples' writings or anywhere else in the scriptures, and the Sabbath was not a Jewish practice but a universal one, then to me that is the authority that I follow. Not church leaders who decided on their own to change the day because of anti-semitism, pagan convenience or wanting to institute a remembrance of Christ's resurrection.

Other than Easter, we honor and remember Christ's resurrection as an existential reality we experience every day by a changed heart and the sanctification process. It was not, nor was ever sanctioned as a liturgical practice. As a matter of fact, most of the institutions we hold as a church have a Christ driven liturgical practice to commemorate the event. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are two examples. However, we have no practice whatsoever established by Christ when he resurrected to commorate the resurrection. Nor was it ever to replace the Sabbath day in its function. There are many Christians that are observing BOTH Sabbath and Sunday because both serve different purposes.

[Mrs. Maggott]

There are still some denominations who consider the Sabbath to be Saturday. But as far as Paul is concerned, most of the real problems arising in the early Church were such that the "Sabbath" question was not considered much of an issue. Remember, there were heresies popping up all over the place. Indeed, it was Arianism which caused the Council which produced the Nicene Creed, so the Sabbath as an issue was not that big a deal.

Actually, the "Sabbath" issue is more of a problem here because even the pagans in those days had some understanding of "holiness" albeit to their own gods. Today, materialism and secularism has replaced much of what used to be a fairly "religious" culture. Therefore, the concept of a "holy" day (from which we get the word "holiday" itself) is becoming ever less prevalent in the society. Even days such as Christmas or Easter are becoming the Winter holiday or the Spring holiday (and not even in the old pagan understanding either!) and the Christ Child has been replaced not even by St. Nicholas but Rudolf and Frosty while the Easter Bunny rounds out the trivialization of our former High Holy Days! Is it any wonder that the concept of "Sabbath" itself is somewhat lost on younger people?