Finweans That Never Were

[Inderjit S]

In his compiling of the Published Silmarillion, C.T made many alterations from ideas put forward by his father in various essays that contradicted long-running ideas in his fathers work. Some made more sense then others, though some of the omissions seem rather senseless, that is if the faux pas on C.T's part in leaving out Findis for example can be seen as imprudent, though I suppose, hindsight is a useful tool , and if he had envisaged the general brouhaha that would be associated with his (in)accurate picture of Tolkien's later views on who was the son of whom, and who the fattest Elf was (Or to spare the Elf's blushes a more conservative phrase surely would have been used by Tolkien-diet intolerant maybe?). Anyway, apart from boring you to death-this essay DOES have a purpose, to discuss the various Finwëans that were left out or whose progeny’s or parentages differ from the Published Silmarillion in regards to Tolkien's later view on the subject.

To begin, I will discuss the absence of some Finwëans from the Published Silmarillion. Now, we hear in the Published Silmarillion that Finwë had three sons, Fëanor from Míriel Þerinde and Fingolfin and Finarfin from Indis, niece (though sometime sister) of Ingwë Ingweron, High King of the Eldar. Simple, yes? Three Kids-that's all? Well, no. Finwë varyingly had something between 4-6 children. The first instance of this is Finrun Felageomor (HoME 4) but he was dropped from the genealogies. We then hear in LQII (HoME 10) that Finwë had a daughter, or rather three. 'Findis' and he sisters, 'Irimë' and 'Faniel' are here mentioned for the first time. Findis is noted as being the eldest of his children with Indis. As the Shibboleth of Fëanor (HoME 12) shows us, 'Faniel' was dropped, though both Findis and Irimë were kept. 'Findis' remained with her mother Indis and siblings in Tirion after Finwë went to Formenos with his banished son Fëanor. After he was slain by Melkor, they dwelt with the Vanyar, presumably on the slopes of Oiolosse where Indis's kin resided and where Finwë first met Indis. Irimë, on the other hand, did go on exile and was said to be close to her elder brother Fingolfin. Presumably she resided with him in Hithlum. We never hear whether or not Findis or Irimë have any children or marry, but I will pick up on that later. 'Irimë' like all the Etyañgoldi. Her mother name was 'Lalwendë' (Q. 'laughing maiden') and when it was Sindarinized, her name became 'Lalwen' which was a loose fitting of the Sindarin form 'Glaþwen'. We have no record of her fate though presumably she was slain after the Bragollach or may have died of grief from the death of Fingolfin. So already we have two 'missing' children of Finwë, Findis and Irimë Lalwendë. We also have two that were dropped. Why didn't C.T include Findis and Irimë? Well it could be because the version that Finwë only ever had two sons from Indis, Finarfin and Fingolfin (apart from the version in the Qenta Noldorinwa (HoME 4) where he has a son named Finrun, as I have mentioned) was so deeply embedded in the mythos that he didn't wish to make a drastic alteration of the Quenta, esp. considering the daughters of Finwë entered the genealogies at such a later stage (LQII circa. 1958-9) and the fact that they weren't really central characters to the story.

Next we get Arakáno, son of Fingolfin. Now, wait! Hold on you say, Fingolfin only had two sons-Fingon and Turgon. The emergence of Arakáno (S. 'Argon', 'High-Commander, also Fingolfin's mother name, re-used) comes in the Shibboleth of Fëanor (circa. 1968) and was thus a late addition to the family tree. Pretty much the same excuse can be used for Arakáno's exclusion as Findis's and Irimë's, and the fact that the final story on Arakáno perishing in a Battle with the Orks at Lammoth contradicts the statement that Fingolfin and Finarfin's host weren't attacked upon entering Beleriand plus of course the fact that he was such a late addition.

[Inderjit S]

That, is all the Finwëans who were left out of the Published Silmarillion. We then move on to those Elves whose parentages differ from Tolkien's final thoughts on the matter.

The infamous case of Gil-Galad, naturally crops up. In the Published Silmarillion Gil-Galad is the son of Fingon, High-King of the Ñoldor who was sent to live with Círdan at Falas after the Dagor Bragollach

He is also mentioned as being the son of Fingon in Of The Third Age and The Rings of Power and Aldarion and Erendis in the letter addressed to Tar-Meneldur. The original statement concerning Gil-Galad in Of The Third Age and The Rings of Power listed him a son if Finrod Felagund, eldest child of Finarfin. This matches the story given in the 'Making of Appendix A' (HoME 12) in which he is named as a son of Finrod and the story in the Grey Annals whereby his mother is Meril, one of the Falathrim and Gil-Galad sends him and Meril to Círdan. He is also the son of Finrod in Annals of Beleriand (HoME 5) The statement in Aldarion and Erendis whereby he is named as a son of 'Fingon' is also altered from the original statement 'Finnelach Gil-Galad of the House of Finarfin' which C.T altered to keep in consistence with the Published Silmarillion. Gil-Galad is also briefly a descendant of Fëanor, in the drafts writings to the chapter 'At Rivendell' which later became 'Many Meetings'. This is found in HoME 6, The Return of The Shadow.

The version whereby he is a son of Fingon is found in the Grey Annals. in which a late pencilled note for the Year 456. C.T later claims this was a 'ephemeral’ (short-lived) idea. Now I must digress a little, if I may.

'Orodreth' is listed in the Published Silmarilion as being the son of Finarfin. This was at variance with Tolkien's latter views on the subject. 'Orodreth' is first moved down a generation in the LQI. (HoME 10) when he is struck out of the list of Finarfin's children. In the essay The Ellesar which was included in the series of essays entitled History of Galadriel and Celeborn Galadriel doesn't mention him amongst her brothers to Celebrimbor, here a Elf of Gondolin. We later hear that Tolkien dropped him down a generation, though a parentage is not specified. In the Shibboleth of Fëanor (HoME 12.) It turns out that in the Genealogical Tables of the Finwëans Finrod was given a son, thus contradicting the story that he had no child and the 'Amárië' story. His son's name was Artanáro Rhodothir. Tolkien then made him into a son of Angrod (Aegnor had fallen in love with a Bëorian lady named Andreth) and his name was changed to 'Artaresto' and later to 'Artaher' (noble lord)and his Sindarinized name was Rodreth, though it was changed to 'Orodreth' because of his love for mountains. (S. 'Orod'; mountain.)

Gil-Galad is made into a son of Orodreth in a note which is given in the Shibboleth of Fëanor (HoME 12.) Here Gil-Galad is given his fathers original name of 'Artanáro' (S. Rodnor) and Gil-Galad is given as a epessë in reference to his bright mail (His mail is also mentioned in Sam's rendition of the 'Fall of Gil-Galad, which was translated by Bilbo). This is a change from the version whereby 'Gil-Galad' is his mother-name. (The 'Grey Annals' (HoME 11) says it was a refernce to the brightness of his eyes). The name 'Ereinion' (S. 'Scion of Kings') is also first used in the Shibboleth of Fëanor as well as the statement about his mail so any reference to 'Ereinion' is a editorial one was well as the statement about his mail given in Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age. So C.T knew about the changes to Gil-Galad's parentages, he used things from the essay where it is discussed when working on the Silmarillion. He claims it was to problematic to include it and it would have been best if he left his parentage obscure. On the change of Orodreth's parentage, the reason may be that Orodreth as son of Finarfin was a long running idea in the mythology.

But Orodreth's parentage change causes problems to the story. Orodreth is said to be the warden of Minas Tirith after Finrod leaves for Nargothrond. Of course there is no reason for this story to change when Orodreth is dropped down a generation. But a note in the Shibboleth of Fëanor (HoME 12) that he dwelt with Angrod in Dorthonion and there fled to Nargothrond. Angrod and Aegnor both always stay in Dorthonion. In the map that accompanies Of Maeglin (HoME 11) (circa. about 1972-3) Orodreth is given the land in the far-west of Dorthonion, close to the River Rivil. Could Orodreth's land stretch beyond the Western Mountain Range of Dorthonion and include Minas Tirith? Or was there a different Elf in charge? Edrahil, maybe? Gil-Galad is also said to have escaped from the sack of Nargothrond-was he at the battle or did he remain in Nargothrond? Maybe he escaped with Celebrimbor?
Another question that arises is the possibility of other Finwëans in M-E. 'Gildor Inglorion' the Elf encountered my Sam, Pippin and Frodo at Woody End is a possible Finwëan. The name 'Inglorion' means 'Scion of Inglor'. At the time of the writing of LoTR, 'Inglor' was the name if 'Finrod' (Finrod was the name of Finarfin) and so the name translates as 'son of Inglor' (Finrod)). He also claims to be 'of the house of Finrod'. Finrod should imply Finrod Felagund, not Finarfin, since Tolkien would have altered this in the S.E unless this was a overisght? But it seems probable that at one time, Gildor was descended from Finrod in some form or another. This is of course contradicts the statement in the Shibboleth of Fëanor that Elrond and Gil-Galad were the only male descendents of Finwë. But it seems this is a reference to the S.A Gildor may have crossed the sea with Glorfindel in the S.A (he is said to have come with a 'small group') and what about Elladan and Elrohir? It seems probable that Finrod would have had children in Aman

[Inderjit S]

'Voronwë', friend of Tuor is also a possible Finwëan. He tells Tuor that he holds kinship with Turgon, king of Gondolin. His mother is a unnamed Sindarin lady who is related to Círdan. His father's name is 'Aranwë'. 'Aran' is Sindarin for 'King' whilst the 'wë' suffix is said to be C.E for 'person'. So could the name 'Aranwë' imply some kind of royal lineage? Could Aranwë be the son of Lalwen? Of course when Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin was written the charcter of 'Lalwen' didn't exist, Finwë had no daughters. Could he be related to Turgon's wife, Elenwë. Of course Elenwë was a Vanya and Voronwë a Ñoldor but his father may have been half-Vanya and inter-marriages did take place between Vanya and Ñoldor. Or maybe he was related to Anairë?

Glorfindel is also said in Last Writings (HoME 12) to be the kin of Turgon. Could he be the relation of either Elenwë or Anairë? But Glorfindel was a Ñoldo, and it is said in Last Writings (HoME 12) that all his kin had either perished or were in M-E. How could this be if he was half Vanya? Gandalf also says he is from a house of Princes. Could he be descended from Tatyar (But we never actually know if Finwë was descended from Tatyar) or related to Finwë in some other way. (i.e one of Finwë's cousins) but we never hear about Finwë having any siblings wheras Elwe Þindikollo, Olwë Ciriáran and Ingwë' all had relations.

Another aspect about the Finwëans that was left out of the Published Silmarillion was the altered fate of the twin sons of Fëanor- Amrod and Amras.

In the Published Silmarillion they are both slain in the Third Kinslaying. But Tolkien had thought of a different fate for them. This concept fitst emerges in the Annals of Aman but the full story is told in the Shibboleth of Fëanor when Fëanor unwittingly burns his youngest son, Amras was killed, after he sets fire to the ships.

Thank you and I hope you enjoyed my essay :)

[Nóm]

That's pretty good Inder, thanks for sharing! (Though I can hardly handle all that Gil-galad business ;))

A couple questions...

I find two references to Glorfindel's kin having perished. One says 'all or most' and the second, later one, says that 'all' of his kin had perished and were in Mandos... but I can not find this bit about some of them remaining in Middle-earth?


Could he be descended from Tatyar....
I assume this should be 'Tata' and not 'Tatyar'? It is just that most of the Noldor were of the Tatyar... so being so would be nothing too special among the Noldor. So I'll assume the typo for now...

It's interesting you suggested this mysterious house of princes form which Glorfindel comes may be descendants of Tata. I wonder if there is something in the text which implies those from Tata may have been considered princes, or is it just an idea that you think makes sense?

Regarding Voronwe, I like your Lalwen theory. Aranwe would likely (or so I think) have to have been very young when he married and had his first son though... but Aredhel was only in Nan Elmoth for 4 years before Maeglin was born... though in Aman there was a much longer time between the wedding of Finarfin and Earwen an the birth of their first child. Laws and Customs isn't very clear about the amount of time that passes between wedding and child. So I can't think of any reason Aranwe could not have been the son of Lalwen. I just get the impression Lalwen was not married when she went into exile... it seems to me if she was he would be mentioned instead of it saying she was with her brother, but that doesn't prove anything - just my impression.

The name 'Inglorion' means 'Scion of Inglor'.

So I have been hearing for a year... where does one go to get this 'scion' information? What I am driving at, is if 'ion' there, could have a looser meaning than scion.

[Ithrynluin]

I assume this should be 'Tata' and not 'Tatyar'? It is just that most of the Noldor were of the Tatyar... so being so would be nothing too special among the Noldor.

I also assume he means 'Tata' not 'Tatyar'. What I am wondering at though is that you say 'most of the Noldor were of the Tatyar'. I believe all of them were 'descended' from the Tatyar, not just most. Half the Tatyar became the Noldor, all the Minyar became the Vanyar and a certain percentage of the largest group - the Nelyar - became the Teleri.

If some of the Noldor had mixed origins they would still be of Tatyarin heritage, plus whatever mixed origin they had besides that (either Nelyarin or Minyarin).

Inder m'lad, another great production from you. Two thumbs up. :)

[Nóm]

Nevermind the 'most'. I was confusing something I read in Cuivienyarna awhile back. One of the groups of elves (the 36) that came to be Tata's is the group from which most of the Noldor came... I had somehow come to think that it was from all the Tatyar that most of the Noldor came.

[Beleg]

This is of course contradicts the statement in the Shibboleth of Fëanor that Elrond and Gil-Galad were the only male descendents of Finwë. But it seems this is a reference to the S.A Gildor may have crossed the sea with Glorfindel in the S.A (he is said to have come with a 'small group') and what about Elladan and Elrohir? It seems probable that Finrod would have had children in Aman

I must say I don't agree with it. About Elrohir and Elladan it is said clearly that they were offspring of Elrond, so one can take them for granted that they are descendants of Finwe. While for Gildor there is no such thing, and the best we have got is his name which you classify as 'scion of Finrod'. Now this can easily mean that he was one of his people, those he commanded, or were under him in Nargothrond.
Besides it can also be a possible hint that Elladan and Elrohir later choose to become man. Otherwise Elros was also Finwe's descandant and so were all the Kings of Numenor, and yet they aren't take as his descendants.
I think in Shibelloth, Tolkien is talking about all the characters mentioned in these histories or which come within the scope of these histories. Otherwise it is probable that some of the sons of Feanor that might have been reborn might also have some children, and what about the children of Fingolfin's sisters? They might have children which were part Finwean?

Gil-Galad is also said to have escaped from the sack of Nargothrond-was he at the battle or did he remain in Nargothrond? Maybe he escaped with Celebrimbor?

Care to explain it a bit more? Because I have always been a firm believer that Celebrimbor is off the kin of Feanor; Tolkien extrapolated this change in S.E and I believe all the later ideas that he broughts up, after 65, he was ignorant of the change he had incoporated and as C.T says in 'Of Dwarves and Men', If Tolkien would have remembered his alteration in S.E, he would have stood by it.
On the matter of Gil-galad, I believe he was sent to the heavens and later to Balar. [not by Fingon, but either by the orders of Finrod or Orodeth].


Could he be the relation of either Elenwë or Anairë? But Glorfindel was a Ñoldo, and it is said in Last Writings (HoME 12) that all his kin had either perished or were in M-E. How could this be if he was half Vanya?

Couldn't they have died in the Last Battle in which Beleriand was broken?

Great job anyway.

Oh and a Query: How does one type this [P type thingy] in perinde?

[Inderjit S]

I find two references to Glorfindel's kin having perished. One says 'all or most' and the second, later one, says that 'all' of his kin had perished and were in Mandos... but I can not find this bit about some of them remaining in Middle-earth?

Well, now that the quote from 'Last Writings' comes to mind, it seems that I may have erred in my statement. But I always found it odd that all of his kin were slain, surely one or two would have survived?

I assume this should be 'Tata' and not 'Tatyar'? It is just that most of the Noldor were of the Tatyar... so being so would be nothing too special among the Noldor. So I'll assume the typo for now

Yes, I meant descendents from 'Tata' and 'Tatië'.

It's interesting you suggested this mysterious house of princes form which Glorfindel comes may be descendants of Tata. I wonder if there is something in the text which implies those from Tata may have been considered princes, or is it just an idea that you think makes sense

'Tata' would have been considered the 'father' (though the use of this term is inaccurate) of the Tatyar. Therefore one can assume that his descendants would have been held as leaders of the Tatyar, or, as the family tree began to branch out, there may have been several 'princely' houses who could claim to be descended from Tatyar. (i.e. something similar to the houses of Fëanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin descended from Finwë) it may be that there were divisions between princely households prior and after the march in Aman, within each of the Three Hosts, but each appointed leader was the over-lord of the Three-Hosts. For example, Lenwë seems to have his own small group within the host of Olwë and in the LQI (HoME 10) we get the story of the two Avarin leaders Morwë and Nurwë, though these two were seemingly dropped, but still more then three divisions between each host. The Avari may have represented the more 'traditional' ways of Quendian life and any information on their customs may have been reflective of early Elven life. The Avari had numerous tribes. They may or may not have had central leaders. The Avari who crept into Beleriand seem to have been in small families or clans, not in a general group whereby they could create realms of their own. The 'Nandor' or latter 'Silvan' Elves are as close to the Avari as we can get, the Nandor didn't take any leaders after the death of Denethor and the Nandor in the Vale of Anduin were said to have no princes until the coming of the Sindar into the East. The realms of Amdir Mal-Galad and Oropher were two of the most well known. The Nandor were also said to be dwelling in scattered companies in Eriador. A lot of the Nelyarin Avari later joined the Silvan realms in Mirkwood and Lorien. The Avari were also said to have close relations with Dwarves.

Regarding Voronwe, I like your Lalwen theory. Aranwe would likely (or so I think) have to have been very young when he married and had his first son though... but Aredhel was only in Nan Elmoth for 4 years before Maeglin was born... though in Aman there was a much longer time between the wedding of Finarfin and Eärwen an the birth of their first child. Laws and Customs isn't very clear about the amount of time that passes between wedding and child. So I can't think of any reason Aranwe could not have been the son of Lalwen. I just get the impression Lalwen was not married when she went into exile... it seems to me if she was he would be mentioned instead of it saying she was with her brother, but that doesn't prove anything - just my impression.

I pretty much agree with you on this. In regards to Laws and Customs I think that is primarily a essay dealing with Eldarin customs within Aman not M-E. I think there would have been a shorter span in the bearing of children in Aman and M-E. We get a gap of 21 years between Elladan and Elrohir's birth and the marriage of Elrond and Celebrían for example and a further gap of 111 years between their birth and Arwen's. Though this was in a time of peace.

So I have been hearing for a year... where does one go to get this 'scion' information? What I am driving at, is if 'ion' there, could have a looser meaning than scion

'Ion' means son.

His father till then was contented to call him Iôn, son. (His mother secretly gave him a N. Quenya name Lómion 'son of twilight'; and taught Maeglin the Quenya tongue, though Eöl had forbidden it.) Of Maeglin; HoME 11

When Tolkien was writing the chapters involving Gildor, he may thought them to be 'Dark Elves'. Gildor in the course of writings seems to be a Etyañgoldi not a son of a Exiled Ñoldo who was born in M-E.

'Then who are you, and who is your lord?' said Bingo. 'I am Gildor,' said the Elf who had hailed him. 'Gildor Inglorion’ of the house of Finrod. We are exiles, one of the few companies that still remain east of the Sea, for our kindred went back to the West long ago. We are Wise-elves, and the elves of Rivendell are our kinsfolk.' From Hobbiton to Woody End; HoME 6

If some of the Noldor had mixed origins they would still be of Tatyarin heritage, plus whatever mixed origin they had besides that (either Nelyarin or Minyarin).

I always got the impression from Quendi and Eldar (HoME 11) that each group was rather segregated and there were little or no inter-marriages.

Besides it can also be a possible hint that Elladan and Elrohir later choose to become man. Otherwise Elros was also Finwe's descandant and so were all the Kings of Numenor, and yet they aren't take as his descendants.

Elladan and Elrohir were Peredhil, the Númenóreans were Men. There's a difference.

Otherwise it is probable that some of the sons of Feanor that might have been reborn might also have some children

That could apply to all of the descendants of Finwë.

Care to explain it a bit more? Because I have always been a firm believer that Celebrimbor is off the kin of Feanor

The idea that Celebrimbor is a Elf of Nargothrond doesn't refute, but supports the idea that he was the son of Curufin. He remained in Nargothrond after the driving out of his father and his uncle, Celegorm and Curufin. Presumably he remained in Nargothrond until it was destroyed and then escaped. Him and Gil-Galad would have been great lords in Nargothrond so they would have lead any retreat maybe.

Couldn't they have died in the Last Battle in which Beleriand was broken

Any Vanyrain casualties would have been re-incarnated. He would have had some female relations who didn't go to war. Elven Nissi generally didn't go to war.

Just like to point out the statement, "'Irimë' like all the Etyañgoldi. Her mother name was 'Lalwendë' " it meant to read "'Irimë' like all the Etyañgoldi had a Sindarin name.

And thanks for all the praise! :) :D :)

[Nóm]

I think the LotR implies Gildor was an exile just as much as that bit you quote from HoME XI.

In the case of Lomion... ion does not mean 'son' literally does it? Could it be that Inglorion does not have to mean Son of Inglor... but could mean follower of Inglor? But I forgot what point I was trying to make with this, so nevermind for now.


I would have gussed the sons of Feanor, the oath-takers, would not be released from Mandos until the end, but the fact that Feanor alone is mentioned as an exmaple of an extreme case where one must await Eru's judgement, can give one the impression that his sons were not in the same situation. But I have to say I can't imagine Curufin being released. His attempt to murder Luthien from behind is worse than what the Noldor did at Alqualonde, in my opinion. Curufin had nothing to gain but personal satisfaction from it.

[Khôr’nagan]

Technically speaking, each and every Dunadan is a descendant of Finwe, because even though Elros chose to be Human, he was still a descendant of Finwe. Thus Aragorn is also a descendant, which I find kind of cool. Also, since Aragorn's ancestors can be traced back to Melian, one could say that Gandalf and Aragorn are distant relatives (walking on thin ice here, I know).

[Inderjit S]

*bump*

Also, since Aragorn's ancestors can be traced back to Melian, one could say that Gandalf and Aragorn are distant relatives

Sam notices the similarities between Faramir and Gandalf and Pippin notices the similarities between Aragorn and Denethor and Gandalf. Denethor was said to be a lot like Aragorn and Faramir a lot like his father. Although the Stewards weren't descendants of Elendil, they were of a high Númenórean family. The blood of Númenor was said to run true in Faramir and Denethor.

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwe and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth. Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story, the descendants of that union were called 'the children of Lúthien'. The world has grown old in long years since then, but it may be that their line has not yet ended. (Lúthien was through her mother, Melian, descended also from the Máyar, the people of the Valar, whose being began before the world was made. Melian alone of all those spirits assumed a bodily form, not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation in form and powers like to the bodies or the Elves. This she did for love of Elwë; and it was permitted, no doubt because this union had already been foreseen in the beginning of things, and was woven into the Amarth of the world, when Eru first conceived the being of his children, Elves and Men, as is told (after the manner and according to the understanding of his children) in that myth that is named The Music of the Ainur.) Shibboleth of Fëanor (HoME 12)

Note: Aragorn and Arwen were not direct descendants of Ingwë, Indis (Second wife of Finwë) was (variantly) the sister and niece of Ingwë.