Round 8: Ost-in-Edhil vs. Guild of Outcasts

[Bethelarien]

I have the privelege of hosting this debate. The topic has been PMed to Maedhros for approval, and judges are pending.

Please state your teams.

[YayGollum]

From the Illustrious Guild Of Outcasts --->

Me
The Confusticated lady (or Nom)
The crazy Rhiannon lady

and

The Sarah person

[Arvedui]

Sorry about being late, but here comes the OiE-team:

- Ancalagon
- Arvedui
- Ravenna
- Gothmog

Let the game commence!


EDIT: Gothmog added to the list.

[Bethelarien]

All is forgiven, Arvedui. ;)

THE TOPIC:

The Silmarillion, Chapter 9: Of the Flight of the Noldor"

[Feanor, when asked to give the Silmarils to Yavanna after the destruction of the Two Trees]
This thing I will not do of free will. But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred.

Was Feanor right in withholding the Silmarils from the Valar?

~The Ost-in-Edhil is the home team. The debate will close one week from their first post. Good luck to all!~

[Ravenna]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Silmarillion, Chapter 9: Of the Flight of the Noldor"

[Feanor, when asked to give the Silmarils to Yavanna after the destruction of the Two Trees]
This thing I will not do of free will. But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Was Feanor right in withholding the Silmarils from the Valar?


Firstly apologies for the delay. My monitor blew and I had to wait for someone to put my replacement in.
Anyway, here goes.

Ost-in-Edhil will take the view that Feanor was right to refuse the Valar's demand that he surrender the Silmarils.
Although may important events followed, few, if any seem directly attributable to the refusal itself, and therefore are largely irrelevant.

Firstly let us look at the effect the Silmarils actually had on Feanor himself. It appears to be similar to the influence of the One Ring in later ages. he became obsessive about them.

For Feanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all but his father and his seven sons.
Whether the jewels had some innate power is not conclusively proven, but their effect on their 'owners' was similar in later ages, giving some validity to the concept. For example Thingol:

And every day that he looked upn the Silmaril the more he desired to keep it for ever, for such was it's power
Feanor had also been led to believe, albeit incorrectly that the Valar wanted the jewels for themselves, and this had provoked a violent reaction.

Get thee gone thou jail crow of Mandos!
Secondly, we have the nature of the Noldor as a whole, and Feanor in particular. they were master craftsmen and were greatly enamoured of their own creations. Feanor was acknowledged as the greatest craftsman of them all. He was known to be steadfast and strong minded and to take little in the way of counsel when his mind was set.
This then, was the Elf that created the Silmarils.

Atfter the destruction of the Trees, Yavanna stated that


Even for those who are mightiest under Iluvatar there is some work that they may accomplish once and once only.
Feanor replied
For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman.
Should the Valar have asked Feanor to destroy his once in a lifetime creation, in order to save Yavanna's? His creations were equally important TO HIM, as hers were to her.
We can also see that Feanor is unsure if he is even able to unlock the jewels and is terrified that if he does manage to do so, that he will die. This may not have been the case, but Feanor certainly believed it; and in a place and time where death was heretofore unknown, it would certainly have been a powerful force in Feanor's mind.
Aule himself admitted that it was an enormous request to make and urged the other Valar not to push too hard, for

We ask a greater thing than thou knowest. Let him have peace yet awhile.
He knew, as only another craftsman could, the anguish it would cause Feanor to destroy these precious things.


We must also take into account Mandos's foretelling that

The fates of Arda, earth, sea and air , lay locked within them.
If Feanor had permitted the destruction of the silmarils, what then the Fates of Arda?


In summation, we have an Elf, the greatest craftsman around, who has created something incredible - a real one off, which has not only become a total obsession with him, but which he has been led to believe that others covet; he may have been decieved by Melkor, but since when has being gullible been a crime?
Because of this, he has an automatic distrust reaction to anyone so much as hinting that he should give tham up, or lose them.
An Elf, already punished by the Valar for being decieved by Melkor, (although I admit that it was not the only reason for his punishment). An Elf, banished from his home , and already in fear of dying if his creations are destroyed.


If we look at all these circumstances, it is hard to believe that he was wrong to refuse. For Feanor, it was the ONLY possible choice he could have made.

[Nóm]

First... I was so anxious about which side I would have to argue in this debate, and so much wanted the side OiE took that I got a little frustrated and disapointed when I saw which side you guys took. :o

I am very passionate about anything to do with the Noldor/Valar/rebellion. And these events are my favorite in the history of Arda.

But, this should be a fun task for both Yay and I, I think.

First, I agree with nearly everything OiE has said. But the two points where I disagree are vital enough that I will show Feanor was wrong.

First:
We must also take into account Mandos's foretelling that



The fates of Arda, earth, sea and air , lay locked within them.



If Feanor had permitted the destruction of the silmarils, what then the Fates of Arda?

Mandos said that because he had foresight of what would happen. Had it been that the simarilli being unlocked at the time of the darkening of Valinor had actually happend, Mandos would have had knowledge of that instead of whatever end it is that he does have knowledge of.

Also, the unlocking of the silmarilli does not exclude them holding the fate of Arda. Suppose he had unlocked them, and Valinor was once again alight, and the Valar having experienced that darkness though of Middle-earth and speared the light around the world. We really can not know what would have come up their unlocking, but it is a fact that this thing does not exclude fate of Arda being locked in them. And even if it did, my first point shows how the words of Mandos are irrelevent as he speaks of what he knows will happen, and if things had been otherwise he will have known that instead.


next:
If we look at all these circumstances, it is hard to believe that he was wrong to refuse. For Feanor, it was the ONLY possible choice he could have made.
because feanor was silent for awhile before answering, it can be concluded that he was considering handing them over. But even if Tulkas had not butted in, Feanor probably would have refused the request.

That the silmalli had a very strong hold of greed on Feanor is a reason he did not give them up. BUT, this does not make it right for him to have kept them. In fact that it was greed makes it all the more wrong.

That this would have broke Feanor's heart (or he at least believes it would have, and I don't really doubt it myself), is a better reason for him to keep them safe. However, look at all the great sacrifices people have made. For example Feanor's father staying in Mandos until the end so that Miriel would return. This information is found in the Later Quenta in HoME X and in The Shibboleth of Feanor in HoME XII. If Feanor had been willing to let his heart break, much good would have come to all the people in Aman and probably to Middle-earth as well. It also would have been the biggest blow he could have realisticly dealt to Morgoth.

Now lets take a look at what good would have come. First: That light was holy and had the power of healing the hurts of Morgoth. Second, a lot of the Noldor were very very probably going back to Middle-earth, and maybe would have taken some of that light with them. Third - ah you know what? I don't feel right about aguing Feanor was wrong... I can't outright do it and if I try to do it by saying a lot of things which might give me a chance to win this debate, I'd have to say a lot of things that I do not believe and I wont do it.

If my teammate wants to argue with you guys that is fine, but as far as I am concerned OiE is right, and I'd give you the victory if YayGollum (Sarah doesn't know this material, and I'm almost certain Rhianon does not either - they were only listed to fill out the team of 4) doesn't want to take you guys on.

You have opened up with an excellent post showing why Feanor was not wrong and all I can think to do really is add a lot more to that. It just isn't worht it for the sake of winning a debate... not a topic this dear to me.

So, even if YayGollum takes y'all on and wins the debate, I doubt he'd convince me... so this probably congratulations OiE from me at least.

Sorry for wussing out but:
I will show Feanor was wrong.
No, I wont.

Note: I editted this post - but changed nothing in the actual body of it... in the debate... just the changed the part about being disapointed and added the apology about refusing to debate.

[Gothmog]

Bethelarien, We have here a very unusual situation. Due to the problem faced by the Guild of Outcasts I would like to make a request.

Can I, on behalf of Ost-in-Edhil, ask that this debate be put on hold until the Guild of Outcasts can let us know what is happening about their team?

[Nóm]

Three times now one of us has debated alone. Sarah and Rhiannon have not read The Silmarillion. They have sat out of debates before and it was never a problem. Yay will likely show up some time and take part. Sarah and Rhiannon may debate in this one too due to my dislike of doing so and refusal to make certain claims. Rhiannon may be looking over the chapters needed too. Maybe all four of GoO will actually debate this time!

However, I'm going to debate afterall talking to Aule I've changed my mind and realise how big a wuss I am for not debating.

Back to the debate!



Feanor's words are '...and if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman.'

Note that he says 'If I must break them'... and NOT 'if they are broken'. These are different things. The death of Finwe, Feanor's father, did not cause him to die of a broken heart... but suppose he had to kill his own father? Wow! See the difference is huge. It was the breaking of them with his own hands that Feanor would not have been able to bear, not the unlocking of them itself.

Feanor should have gave them to Yavanna so she could break them. How do we know she could have? Because in the end she will.

Here:
The Quenta, HoME IV
Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurian; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees...
From the prophecy of the final battle.

Surely Yavanna breaking them would have been a grief to Feanor, but nowhere nearly as bad as if he had to do so himself. There is a special grief in destroying a thing you love, and this is what kills.


Now, let's also look at what exactly was asked of Feanor...

First, Yavanna said:
The Light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Ea I can do so never again. Yet had I but a little of that light I could recall life to the Trees, ere their roots decay; and then our hurt should be healed, and the malice of Melkor be confounded.
Manwe said:
Hearest thou, Feanor son of Finwe, the words of Yavanna? Wilt thou grant what she would ask?
Tulkas said:
Speak, O Noldo, yea or nay! But who shall deny Yavanna? And did not the light of the Silmarils come from her work in the beginning?
Aule said:
Be not Hasty! We ask a greater thing than thou knowest. Let him have peace yet awhile.

Nowhere did they ask for all three. Feanor assumes they want all three. 'But a little of that light', may very well be one or even two silmarils. Feanor, you could say, should have offered up one or two of them. It is fair to assume that no one present knew just how much light was needed, and it might have hurt Feanor much less to try with one or two than to break all three.

The request was not unreasonable. This is evident by the fact that it came from the valar. Not only Yavanna who had herself just lost something that ment as much to her as Feanor's silmarils did to him, but also Manwe, High King of Arda, who works more than any others the will of Iluvatar and is closest in thought with him. And while Aule says they ask a greater thing than they know, he does not object to their asking, and furthermore he may have been a craftsmen but Yavanna and Varda and others among them that day were also makers. Elentari made the stars and their making was 'a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda'. So Aule's opinion or assumption that they asked more than they knew one could say he was probably incorrect.

So while Feanor thought it would break his heart and kill him, should he have thought that? Maybe not since he only thought this because he was not thinking about letting Yavanna break just one of them herself. But it is a shame Feanor did not think of this.... which he probably should have. Had he done so he may not have thought it would kill him. Feanor was in a mindset to make him deny the request, however this reason alone is not enough to make a decision right. People who murder out of anger could have this same thing said about them. "Well they were so furious they could not help it, anger took over and they had no other choice"... well they're still wrong! So your reason that Feanor was right because of who he was... beliefs and mindset does not, alone, make him right. That he thought he would die is maybe due to his failure to see another easier way, which was because of his mindset, paranoia and greed... things that are not okay. Things that ill decisions always come from.

[Nóm]

For Feanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable.

Yavanna said:
The Light of the Trees has passed away, and lives now only in the Silmarils of Feanor. Foresighted was he!
Yavanna clearly thinks this was foresight, but even if it was not, Yavanna thought then that the purpose of the silmarils should be to rekindle the Trees, and so it seems did the other Valar.

The Blessed realm, the home of many of the Eldar, and the eventual home of many more of the Eldar, was hugely diminished when Melkor killed the Trees. Feanor not only denied the light to the Valar, upon whom one might lay part of the blame for the death of the trees, but also to the Eldar, who there in the Blessed Realm and nowhere else in Arda could live more according to their true nature. The holy light was the cure for the hurts that Melkor caused to Arda, and when Feanor denied the silmarils he withheld that cure, and seeming to him at the time, to the benefit of no one other than himself.

The silmarils were of much more use lighting the trees than they were hidden away in an iron chamber. Because of this some could say Feanor was wrong.

[Ravenna]

Nom said;
quote
First, I agree with nearly everything OiE has said. But the two points where I disagree are vital enough that I will show Feanor was wrong.

First:
--------------------------------
quote:We must also take into account Mandos's foretelling that


quote:
The fates of Arda, earth, sea and air , lay locked within them.

If Feanor had permitted the destruction of the silmarils, what then the Fates of Arda?

------------------------------

Mandos said that because he had foresight of what would happen. Had it been that the simarilli being unlocked at the time of the darkening of Valinor had actually happend, Mandos would have had knowledge of that instead of whatever end it is that he does have knowledge of.
________________________

My point here is that it is the SILMARILLI which have the fates of Arda locked inside them; if Feanor had let them be broken, they would not have BEEN the Silmarilli any more, and could not have held any fate at all.

From her later post, Nom said;

______________________

quote:
Feanor should have gave them to Yavanna so she could break them. How do we know she could have? Because in the end she will.

Here:

quote:The Quenta, HoME IV
Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurian; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees...


From the prophecy of the final battle.
_________________________

By your own argument, you show a perfectly good reason why Feanor should not have give up the jewels at that time, because in doing so , he would preclude himself from being able to do so at the time of the final battle, and would therefore have invalidated the prophecy, if we believe part of the prophecy to be true, then we must believe that all of it is true.

You also say that the Valar did not necessarily ask for all 3 jewels, but maybe only one or two; but they did not make this clear to Feanor. Again, 'a little of that light' is ambiguous in itself, could the trees have been rekindled by the LIGHT of the Silmarils alone? thereby removing the need for destruction, here the Valar onece again did not make their demand 100% clear to Feanor. They demanded the jewels, and when Feanor hesitated, they tried coercion 'Who shall deny Yavanna?'

Feanor was not a slave to be ordered by the Valar, he had free will, when they tried to push him into making the decision their way, it reinforced his already held (though erroneous) suspicions that they wanted the Silmarils for themselves. The more someone tries to make you do something which you are already reluctant to do, the more likely you are to seek hidden agendas and to refuse, especially given Feanor's state of mind at the time.

Finally, you state that by refusing, Feanor denied the light to the Eldar in Valinor; ok, a fair point, but by refusing, he also caused the creation of the sun and moon which gave a measure of that light to the whole of Arda and all the peoples inhabiting it, and that included the Eldar who remained in the blessed realm. Unconciously then, Feanor benefitted every living being in Arda, the good of the many outweighing the good of the few, and that alone could be said to make his decision right.

After all it is perfectly possible to make a right decision for the wrong reason, just as it is possible to make the wrong decision for the right reasons.

[Gothmog]

Ravenna Has already covered much of this topic very well indeed. But to add to what has already been posted.By NomThe request was not unreasonable. This is evident by the fact that it came from the valar. Not only Yavanna who had herself just lost something that ment as much to her as Feanor's silmarils did to him, but also Manwe, High King of Arda, who works more than any others the will of Iluvatar and is closest in thought with him. And while Aule says they ask a greater thing than they know, he does not object to their asking, and furthermore he may have been a craftsmen but Yavanna and Varda and others among them that day were also makers. Elentari made the stars and their making was 'a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda'. So Aule's opinion or assumption that they asked more than they knew one could say he was probably incorrect. The request was I agree not unreasonable. No more unreasonable than that light was denied to Middle-earth for long ages because the Valar remained in Aman where the Trees gave light to their domain only. Even the Teleri of Aman could only have this light by forsaking their havens and ships.

So then, was Fëanor wrong to refuse this request? I think not. Nôm uses the prophecy of the final battle to show that in the end Fëanor will give up the jewels. Why would it say that it is at the end Fëanor will give up the Silmarilli? Simple, because when he refused at the time the trees were destroyed by Melkor and Ungoliant this was not the time for the Trees to be restored.

As I have already said, for long ages Middle-earth had been almost completely ignored by the Valar. Only Ulmo, Orome and, to a lesser extent, Yavanna had given any thought to it. Long had it been without the light that the Pelori held within Aman. The time had come for that light to be once more spread over all Arda. This would not have happened if Fëanor had given up the light of the jewels.

You may think "But Melkor had already taken the Silmarilli therefore the Trees could not have been saved anyway." But we do not know how the Valar would have reacted to this had Fëanor said yes. It may be that they would have gone after Melkor more quickly to recover the Jewels to save the Trees. This would have caused even more harm than the path they did take. And less good would have come out of it also.

It was time for Light to be spread over all Arda. With Fëanor's refusal the Valar had to accept that the Trees could not be revived at that time therefore another answer had to be found.
Yavanna clearly thinks this was foresight, but even if it was not, Yavanna thought then that the purpose of the silmarils should be to rekindle the Trees, and so it seems did the other Valar.

The Blessed realm, the home of many of the Eldar, and the eventual home of many more of the Eldar, was hugely diminished when Melkor killed the Trees. Feanor not only denied the light to the Valar, upon whom one might lay part of the blame for the death of the trees, but also to the Eldar, who there in the Blessed Realm and nowhere else in Arda could live more according to their true nature. The holy light was the cure for the hurts that Melkor caused to Arda, and when Feanor denied the silmarils he withheld that cure, and seeming to him at the time, to the benefit of no one other than himself.

The silmarils were of much more use lighting the trees than they were hidden away in an iron chamber. Because of this some could say Feanor was wrong. So Yavanna and the rest of the Valar thought that the purpose of the Silmarils should be to rekindle the Trees? Perhaps they should have given this matter more thought from a less self-centred position.

You say that Aman was the home of Many of the Eldar and that many more would come there later. Well it is true that the Elves left in the darkness of Middle-earth were destined to go to the West but not until the time of their waning which would not happen until there was great light in Middle-earth. By your argument Middle-earth should have been left in darkness and Men remain in limbo waiting for the light that would never come while the Valar sat in comfort in Valinor in the light of the Trees.

The Silmarils were of far greater value as they were with the fates of Arda locked within them. "The Fates of ARDA", not the comfort of Aman.

Fëanor may not have known what was to be or why he felt that refusing was the only thing to do. But it is certain that it was the right thing to do. Arda would have been much lessened and Elves and Men would have paid a great price in Middle-earth had short-sighted plan of the Valar held sway.

[Gothmog]

As Nom is once more involved in this debate I ask that she be allowed to edit her first post to remove her reasons for not wishing to debate this topic. I do not want to risk any judge being unduly influenced by such comments even unintentionaly.

[Gothmog]

Ok. It is the view of OiE that Fëanor Was right to refuse the request of the Valar for the Silmarils. But let us take another look at Why this is so. To do this we must review some of the history of Arda.

We will start with the "Vision of the Music".

The Music of the Ainur was shown to them by Eru in a vision whereby they saw much of what was to come. The part that needs to be considered is this.
The Ainulindalë.
And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making. The Ainur did not know of the Children of Ilúvatar and did not decide the conditions under which each would awaken. The Elves would do so under the stars while Men would wait for the light.

So now we go on to the work of creating Arda and what the Valar did there.

After much time and great strife with Melkor, the Valar did at last create Middle-earth ready for the Children of Eru.From The Silmarillion: Chapter 1
In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna planted at last the seeds that she had long devised. And since, when the fires were subdued or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of light, Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the encircling seas. Then Varda filled the lamps and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp thy raised near to the north of Middle-earth, and it was named Illuin; and the other was raised in the south, and it was named Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless day. So the Valar gave light to the whole of Middle-earth in that time. But then Melkor struck once more.Chapter 1
But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared; and he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and cast down their pillars and broke their lamps.
So then, did the Valar replace the lamps?Chapter 1
Therefore they departed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, the westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; It would seem not. Did they ensure that Middle-earth would have light?Chapter 1
and since Melkor was returned to Middle-earth and they could not yet overcome him, the Valar fortified their dwelling, and upon the shores of the sea they raised the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon Earth. andBehind the walls of the Pelóri the Valar established their domain in that region which is called Valinor; and there were their houses, their gardens , and their towers. In that guarded land the Valar gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and Valinor became more beautiful even the Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; alsoBut as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn, Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Eä. So they did not at that time give light to Middle-earth.

However, this was not a problem.Chapter 3:
But at the bidding of Manwë Mandos spoke, and he said: 'In this age the Children of Ilúvatar shall come indeed, but they come not yet. Moreover it is doom that the Firstborn shall come in the darkness, and shall look first upon the stars. Great light shall be for their waning. To Varda ever shall they call at need.'
The Elves were destined to awake in the darkness. Yet, look at what Mandos said again. "Great light shall be for their waning". This is important. The dominion of Men could not happen while Middle-earth was in darkness.

After the Elves had been discovered by the Valar and Melkor had been captured, the Valar summoned the Elves to live in Aman. What then of Middle-earth?

The Valar once more left Middle-earth and returned to Aman. There they had light while the rest of Arda was in darkness.

Now we come at last to Fëanor himself.Chapter 7
For Fëanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable. Then he began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils.
What I wonder was this "Shadow of foreknowledge" that may have come to him? Our opponents of the GoO would probably say it was of the destruction of the Trees. However, this was an incident far too minor in nature for the need of the Silmarils. No the foreknowledge was not because of the death of the Trees but the due to the reason the Trees had to go!

It was coming up to the time that Men must awake. While the Valar lived in contentment in the light of the Trees in Aman there was no reason for them to worry about lighting Middle-earth. What then could cause the "Great light" that would signal the waning of the Elves and the dominion of Men?

We now come to the time in question. Melkor and Ungoliant killed the trees and plunged Aman into the same state as the rest of Arda. Yavanna asks Fëanor to give up the Silmarils to allow the Valar to restore the light of the Trees. Had he done this Middle-earth would have remained in darkness. While Fëanor may not have known that this Was indeed the reason he should refuse, he did have some idea of the problem.

When he spoke in Tirion one of the things he mentions is this.
Chapter 9
'Here once was light, that the Valar begrudged to Middle-earth, but now dark levels all.
So what was it that his refusal accomplished?Chapter 11
Then Manwë bid Yavanna and Nienna to put forth all their powers of growth and healing; and they put forth all their powers upon the Trees. But the tears of Nienna availed not to heal their mortal wounds; and for a long while Yavanna sang alone in the shadows. Yet even as hope failed and her song faltered, Telperion bore at last upon a leafless bough one great flower of silver, and Laurelin a single fruit of gold.
These became the Moon and the Sun and were set to give light to all of Arda.Chapter 11
These things the Valar did, recalling in their twilight the darkness of the lands of Arda; and they resolved now to illumine Middle-earth and with light to hinder the deeds of Melkor. For they remembered and Avari that remained by the waters of their awakening, and they did not utterly forsake the Noldor in exile; and Manwë knew also that the hour of the coming of Men was drawn nigh.
Finally the Valar gave thought to Middle-earth and it's need for light. Manwë "Knew also the hour of the coming of Men was drawn nigh". So then, if this was the case, "Why was it only at this point did he give thought to light for Middle-earth? Because until now he had been content in Aman. The death of the Trees and the Refusal of Fëanor had forced him to remember his duties as "High King of Arda" and vicegerent of Ilúvatar!

Therefore I say once more that Fëanor was indeed correct to refuse the request of the Valar.

[YayGollum]

A strange analogy --->

I cut off my right arm and put it out on display to bring joy to the hearts of all who come to witness the glory of it. :rolleyes: Feanor comes along, chops off my thumb, puts it in a box, and calls it a silmaril. I have no problem with that. The arm was there to bring joy to all. He just has his own crazy way of having fun with it, I guess. Later, the evil but still superly cool Mel shows up and cremates my arm for no good reason. Poor Smeagol. Nothing for the common man to see anymore. Very sad. I waltz up to Feanor and ask for the thumb back since that's all that's left. He says ---> "Argh! Do what? Craziness! You had no problem with me taking part of you earlier! Besides, I put it in a box and like to call it a silmaril! It is my own achingly wonderful work of art!" I roll my eyes and point out that the thumb is mine and he can keep the nasssty box. I guess I just felt like being uncharacteristically polite since the Valar types ended up not taking the silmarils when they could have. oh well. Is it right for Feanor to keep my thumb? Sounds evil to me.

[Nóm]

The Darkening of Valinor could have been enough to remind them to light all of Middle-earth, even had Feanor not refused.
Also, the Noldor were bound to leave Middle-earth, do you think this wouldn't have reminded the Valar that it needed light?

Causing the Valar to think of Middle-earth being dark and then put up the Sun and Moon because of this, is not the puprose of Feanor's foreight (if he even had foresight) nor it is the puprose of the refusal. One thing common to the legendarium from the very beginning and lasting for many years, is men waking with the coming of the light. Because men must have woke in the light, and you have provided a quote to show this, the Valar were bound to light Middle-earth eventually, regardless of if Valinor had light or not.

The true puprose of the foresight (if there was any) and the higher purpose achieved in the refusal on the silmarils, if not the relighting of the Tree as that point in time, must be the role they play in the end when Arda is re-made. But unless Feanor refused to give them up for this reason, it doesn't matter as it can not justify his refusal, nor can it make his action right in hindsight.

To think the high purpose of the simarils was to have them denied to the Valar who would then, being in darkness, think to light all of Middle-earth, is absurd, as it could have been achieved just is well if the things were never created.

The simple fact is that the silmarils were of more use lighting Valinor than being locked in iron.

Feanor, because of his mindset, assumed all three should be opened and assumed Yavanna and none of the other Valar could open them. One may excuse Feanor's refusal on the grounds that he was on a mind that doomed him to deny the silmarils, but all the same this isn't enough to make him right for doing so. Even Morgoth was of a mind that caused him to destory thousands of people, does this make him right in doing it? Of course not.

[Arvedui]

A very funny story, Yay.
But I am afraid it is totally off the mark.

Fëanor didn't take anything from the trees, not even a tiny piece of wood, instead:
he began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils.
About the Silmarils:Like the crystals of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda. Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Ilúvatar; the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor,
He used the light that radiated from the Trees, nothing more.

That light radiated about all of Valinor, and according to your way of explaining things, that light was the property of Yavanna? That sounds plain stupid too me. How can someone claim ownership to something that is emitted from a source?
If I use a mirror to reflect the light from the sun into someones eyes just for fun, should I expect that the sun tells me that I cannot do that, because I am using its light?
The reaction from the Valar were plain to understand:
All who dwelt in Aman were filled with wonder and delight at the work of Fëanor. And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, Not even a hint that someone is claiming ownership of that light.

[Arvedui]

Nóm argues that Fëanor is wrong, because the Silmarils were better used to bring light to Valinor, than being locked up in an iron box, and also that his mind doomed him to deny the silmarils.

Let us have a look at what is written in the Silmarillion:
Then he began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his powers, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils.
Fëanor was the most skilled of all the Eldar when it comes to making things with his own hands. When it is told that he put forth all his skill, his lore, and his powers, then making the Silmarils is no small feat accomplished on a Sunday afternoon.
Also take note of what Fëanor said when was asked to hand over the Silmarils:For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels,
He isn't even sure if he is able to unlock them, and why should he believe that he could? Like the crystals of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda. Noone could.
The Silmarils were Fëanor's own work:For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone, and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman,
So there it is: The Silamrils were the product of Fëanor's own work, even his own idea, made with all the lore, skill and powers that the mightiest Noldor ever could put forth. They were so strong that none could break them, and filled all with wonder and delight.
It is easy to understand what effect such an accomplishment might have on the one who made them, and also why he were so protective of them that he felt that his life was linked with them. To Fëanor, breaking his own work was the same as suicide.
And suicide is not the right solution.

[YayGollum]

No, I wouldn't expect you to expect the sun to start talking to you, Arvedui person. Sounds a little too scary for me. The Valar types could talk, though, and did ask for some of that creepy light stuff. Is it my fault that this Tolkien person decided to make some character act nicely and politely and things? Was there some huge rush to get some lights up and running again? No, not really. Did I read the story wrong? Why wouldn't I get to think of the light as something that was part of the Valar types? Maybe I should change my analogy just a little bit. Instead of taking a thumb, Feanor gathered many dead skin cells that floated off. They were emitted from the source just like the light from the boring trees, but those dead skin cells should still be mine. Hmph. :rolleyes:

[Gothmog]

The Darkening of Valinor could have been enough to remind them to light all of Middle-earth, even had Feanor not refused.
Also, the Noldor were bound to leave Middle-earth, do you think this wouldn't have reminded the Valar that it needed light?
Yes the Darkening of Valinor might have been enough to do so. However, we only see the Valar wanting to re-light the Trees and put things back as they were. The Noldor had already left Middle-earth. I am sure that this is a typo but I am not sure if you mean :-

1 The Noldor were bound to leave Aman

or

2 The Elves were bound to leave Middle-earth.

If it is 1 then my answer is that Fëanor was also responsible for the Noldor leaving Aman and going back to Middle-earth. This was after he rightly refused to give the Valar the Silmarils. So it would seem that he served a double purpose there. Both of which reminded the Valar of their obligations to Middle-earth.

If it is 2 then I would say that there is not much to show this.
Causing the Valar to think of Middle-earth being dark and then put up the Sun and Moon because of this, is not the puprose of Feanor's foreight (if he even had foresight) nor it is the puprose of the refusal. One thing common to the legendarium from the very beginning and lasting for many years, is men waking with the coming of the light. Because men must have woke in the light, and you have provided a quote to show this, the Valar were bound to light Middle-earth eventually, regardless of if Valinor had light or not. How do you know this? I have provided a quote to show that Men woke with the light. But since the Valar were doing very little to provide this light something had to be done. If the Trees had been saved at that time just when do you think the very content Valar would have stirred themselves enough to do some work for Middle-earth?The true puprose of the foresight (if there was any) and the higher purpose achieved in the refusal on the silmarils, if not the relighting of the Tree as that point in time, must be the role they play in the end when Arda is re-made. But unless Feanor refused to give them up for this reason, it doesn't matter as it can not justify his refusal, nor can it make his action right in hindsight. I agree that the purpose of the Silmarils must be at the later point in time. Therefore even if his reasons were not of the highest he was still right to refuse to give them to the Valar too early. His reasons are not used to justify his action. The fact that it was the Wrong time does that.To think the high purpose of the simarils was to have them denied to the Valar who would then, being in darkness, think to light all of Middle-earth, is absurd, as it could have been achieved just is well if the things were never created. Who said that the purpose of the Silmarils was to have them denied to the Valar? I said that the Foresight of Fëanor had to do with the reason the Trees had to go. He then preserved the light of the Trees for a time far in the future. When he was asked to open them too early he very rightly refused. Although he may not, and no doubt did not, know fully the reasons why he made them nor why they should not be used for such a lowly purpose as the simple comfort of the Valar, he did know that he should refuse. This he did.The simple fact is that the silmarils were of more use lighting Valinor than being locked in iron. The simple fact is that if the Silmarils were used to allow Valinor to have once more the light of the Trees it would have meant the Valar had no reason to make the Sun and the Moon. They were too content with the way things were in Aman.Feanor, because of his mindset, assumed all three should be opened and assumed Yavanna and none of the other Valar could open them. Fëanor and only Fëanor knew the secrets of the Silmarils and how they were made. The Valar did not know how the open them and could not "Break" them. Therefore it is obvious that Fëanor would have to open them for the Valar. And as for possibly only one or Two being needed, I very much doubt this to be the case. By doing it in this fashion the greatest risk is that by using less than is available in the first attempt all that would happen is that you waste the little you have. In such a case it would be only simple wisdom to open all three and divide the light equally between the two Trees.


Yay. It is not a part of the Trees that Fëanor used. And the Trees are not Valar. To use an analogy referring to yourself would mean having you ask for the sound you made in speaking to be returned to you. It has gone and is no longer yours.

[YayGollum]

Hm. So my arm analogy isn't very good? Maybe it was just too strange. oh well. The sound thing doesn't seem to fit very well, but then, maybe I'm just crazy. Ick. I hate magically powerful type things, but that's how I gots to describe things in here. sorry about that. Why would these Valar types ask for the silmaril thingys? Because with the light inside, they could somehow recreate those boring trees. Those boring trees only got to come about because of all kinds of evil and magically powerful type things. Seems to me to be that the light is full of the same stuff. Why shouldn't I call that light part of the Valar types? Part of their evil and magical type powerses. It's not like a sound or just some normal light that gets tossed around. It's creepy and evil and magical type power that belongs to people. Ick.

[Ravenna]

Whilst Yavanna made the Trees, it is nowhere explicitly stated that she owned them, that they were her own private property.
The Trees, and therefore, the light that they spread were more in the nature of a gift, given freely to all.
What Yay appears to be saying, to go along with the analogy idea; is that it is as if Yavanna had some sweets, gave some to others, then carelessly dropped hers in the mud and demanded the rest back.
You cannot simply demand a gift back once it has been given. Ownership, (if anyone can be said to own light) is transferred when a gift is given.

Also, the question here is 'Was Feanor right to refuse.....?', not 'were his reasons right?'
We have admitted that Feanor's state of mind was not particularly good, and that maybe his reasoning was flawed. However, as I stated earlier, it is possible to make the right choice for the wrong reasons, and this was what Feanor did. Nobody said he was a particularly nice person at the time, and certainly his reasoning was not laudable, but taking events as a whole, and looking at the end result of that decision, it was the correct one to make.

[Nóm]

Also, the question here is 'Was Feanor right to refuse.....?', not 'were his reasons right?'
In opening OiE used his reasons for justification, that is why I argued against them being right.

You guys now claim Feanor was right, not for his reasons, but because of the result of them and the part his refusal plays in the history of Arda. So now I will argue against that part.


Earlier I said: "The true puprose of the foresight (if there was any) and the higher purpose achieved in the refusal on the silmarils, if not the relighting of the Tree as that point in time, must be the role they play in the end when Arda is re-made. "
OiE then said:I agree that the purpose of the Silmarils must be at the later point in time.
I said "if not the relighting of the Tree as that point in time".. which of course should have been: "if not the relighting of the Trees at that point in time" Perhaps you thought "if" was a typo for "is" as "as" was for "at". But if so, I did not say the Purpose was for the silmarils to be used many ages later, I said that must be the purpose if not the relighting the Trees at the dakrneing of Valinor. But GoO does claim that the puprose of the silmarils was to be opened many ages later in the scenario were Feanor denied them. Had he given them up, their purpose and the scenario would be otherwise.

Now... OiE goes on...

Therefore even if his reasons were not of the highest he was still right to refuse to give them to the Valar too early. His reasons are not used to justify his action. The fact that it was the Wrong time does that.

But was it the wrong time? Will explain more below.

..but taking events as a whole, and looking at the end result of that decision, it was the correct one to make.
and...
When he was asked to open them too early he very rightly refused.
Those OiE statement show that you claim Feanor was right due to the result of what Feanor did, since what Feanor did, denying the silmarils, will prove to have been critical in the fulfillment of Arda.

"Rightly" you say... but: Why right? Because it would be a critical event in the fulfillemnt of the fate of Arda as it happened to unfold in the scenario where Feanor denied the light?

Had he not denied the light, his having done so would not need to be taken up in the tale of Arda and used in it as it was/will be/is (hehe). It could not be used in it because it would not exist in it. Had he allowed them the light, a different tale would follow.

The problem with arguing GoO's side here is that throughout the histroy of Arda there is a series of events which seem to have been doomed, and are all at the heart of the fullfillment of the 'fate' of Arda. The unchainging of Melkor,Feanor making the Silmarils, the dakrening of Valinor, Feanor refusing the silmarils... War of the Jewels... Voyage of Earendil... all of those things... are at the heart of it.

For me to say one of those things should not have happend, or was wrong for happening, would be for me to say that 'fate' of Arda must be achieved by another route.

This event we debate about is central in the achievement of what seems to be the later Dooms. Looking back it was perfect that Valinor was darkened and Feanor refused his silmarils, and that the Noldor went back and met the Sindar and Men, but this exile of the Noldor, meeting of the Sindar and Men, and the war of the jewels, were only necessary because Morgoth was still out there.
If feanor had chosen to hand the silmarils over, how might things have happend? The possablities have no end. The best GoO can do it suggest how it most likely would have gone given what we know.


Morgoth would have been taken care of much sooner if Feanor had said yes. As OiE mentioned, the Valar would have went after Morgoth to get the silmarils had Feanor said they could have them. Then the Sindar would live in peace, so would Avari and Men for the most part. So the peoples of Middle-earth, all of them, would have been better off... Morgoth would be back behind bars. But it gets better...

The simple fact is that if the Silmarils were used to allow Valinor to have once more the light of the Trees it would have meant the Valar had no reason to make the Sun and the Moon. They were too content with the way things were in Aman.
They had been content in the past... before the darkening. The darkening, even if iit had been healed by the rekindling of the Trees by the Silmarils, may have been the thing to remind the Valar of the rest of Middle-earth. But that doesn't even matter as much as this: Men were coming, Men needed to come with the Light.

Men had to come with light. Men had to come. Therefore the Valar had to give light. We can not know for sure how they would have done this.... perhaps lamps like the ones of old...or maybe a Sun and Moon. But there is no way around it, Middle-earth would get light. If it was light that came from Trees that were healthy having been healed by the silmarl light, then the Sun in the sky would be untainted... which means that a holy light would pour down on Middle-earth all the time,healing the hurts of Morgoth. This holy light shining down on the earth healing it, would be the same holy light to do so according to the prophecy which exists in the scenerio where Feanor denied the silmarils at the dakrening of Valinor. The difference is that it would happen much sooner.

PS: Beth hasn't answered about me editting my first post... so if it is okay with OiE I would dare to do it anyhow with your permission. You guys have read my posts and if you look them over after I edit, you will know that I didn't try to sneek some excellent new arguement into it. :D

[YayGollum]

Ack! No, I don't remember reading any book saying that these trees or the light in them was some Valar type's property. I'm just using common sense. This creepy and evil and unfair and magical power is part of somebody. Ick. I hate magic. Power has to do with magic, yes? Mel was running out of the stuff and got weaker. Yavanna used up a lot to make the trees and couldn't come up with enough to remake them. She asked for the powerful type light back. It came from her in the first place. I guess you could say that it belonged to her in the first place, but I don't often say that my thumb or dead skin cells belong to me. They're a part of me. just like that light seems to me to be. It's pretty clear to me, but maybe I'm just crazy.

I don't think that the candy analogy helps me very much. I mean, I don't think that it works as well as my skin cell idea. :rolleyes: You call the Yavanna lady careless due to the fact that some big and scary spider sucked her trees to death? I'm thinking that the lady dropping some candy is a little different. oh well. Sure, you could call the light a gift, just like the priviledge of getting to see my cut off arm, but the light and the arm are still part of some people. Argh.

[Bethelarien]

THIS DEBATE WILL CLOSE TONIGHT AT 5:30 PM CST (11:30PM GMT).

[Gothmog]

Morgoth would have been taken care of much sooner if Feanor had said yes. As OiE mentioned, the Valar would have went after Morgoth to get the silmarils had Feanor said they could have them. Then the Sindar would live in peace, so would Avari and Men for the most part. So the peoples of Middle-earth, all of them, would have been better off... Morgoth would be back behind bars. But it gets better... GoO agree that there was a good chance that had Fëanor said yes the Valar would have gone after him straight away to regain the Silmarils to re-light the Trees. They also claim that this would have been for the good of Arda, the Sindar, the Avari and Men.

But is this so? Let us look at the thoughts of Tolkien himself.
From Myths Transformed
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.
The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.(8)
The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand.
So far from improving things the Valar chasing after Melkor at that time could well have caused the destruction of the Sindar, the Avari and Men unborn along with Arda itself. It would certainly have prevented Men from achieving that "Fullest achievable stature" therefore weakening them. As things stood the Valar attacked at the right time. Had Fëanor said yes they might have launched this attack too soon trying to regain the Silmarils.


P.S. I certainly have no objection. After all I suggested it on behalf of OiE. ;)

[Nóm]

As the years went by Tolkien made the Valar less and less wrong.. and more all-knowing, less mistaken...and with very high intentions... at lot more so then had originally. So it is not far fetched to believe the Valar had timed this out.... but... It doesn't really fit in this case.

Do you believe the gods had it set up... wanted the Noldor to rebel and go through such ruin for that purpose?

I do not.

If so, why is it that when the hosts of the Noldor were setting out, the Valar believed that Feanor would not hold sway over them?

Because they did not (except probably Mandos) know that the Noldor would end up making it to Middle-earth.


What if the Noldor had not rebelled... or very few had done so? Then what would the Valar do? If we take that idea of Tolkien's, then a lot of things do not fit. If Noldor had not returned to Middle-earth (and they went willingly.. so there was always a chance they would not have) then what? The Valar just let Morgoth take over? Men could not stop him and most would have been used against the Eldar in Beleriand. Only the Sindar of Doriath and the dwarves would have been armed for such a fight, and even then they would stand no chance against Morgoth. It would be so easy to whoop them that Morgoth would have ended them before he spent as much power as he ended up doing with the Noldor.

If Feanor said yes and the Valar chased down the silmarils, then men would never have had that shadow which the Noldor helped them overcome in part. Morgoth got into it with Ungoliant and it didn't ruin Middle-earth... and he was in such trouble that his balrogs had to save him. He would have been fighting at his strongest at that moment when his life was in danger... but didn't break Middle-earth.

[Nóm]

ahhhhhh!!

nmo no no!!!
ahahah help help!!1
2 minuts left and i just saw Gothmog at whos onlien rpelying help help help!!!
hsahahahaha
ppanic pianciiicic P A N I C!!!

[Gothmog]

Morgoth got into it with Ungoliant and it didn't ruin Middle-earth... and he was in such trouble that his balrogs had to save him. He would have been fighting at his strongest at that moment when his life was in danger... but didn't break Middle-earth. Morgoth was fighting with Ungoliant for different reasons than he war with the Valar. The Valar were trying to prevent him from taking over Arda. Ungoliant was trying to take the Silmarils from him.

Had the Valar attacked him his responce would have been "If I cannot have it, neither can you!".

[Bethelarien]

DEBATE CLOSED.

Well done, everyone. Judging thread will be up in a bit.