Unfallen Men?

[Nóm]

Taking all things into consideration, especially the text 'Aman' in Myth's Transformed, would Men Unfallen have been fit to live in Aman?

[Beleg]

No, No man, fallen or unfallen was fit to live in Aman.

Myths Transformed, Aman and Men

Now these things are but matters of thought, and might-have-beens; for Eru and the Valar under Him have not permitted Men as they are to dwell in Aman. Yet at least it may be seen that Men in Aman would not escape the dread of death, but would have it in greater degree and for long ages. And moreover, it seems probable that death itself, either in agony or horror, would with Men enter into Aman itself

according to the Eldar men's fea was destined to depart from Arda.

. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar

[Beleg]

So would you agree that Men Unfallen could not have lived in Arda Unmarred?

No. Aman was a land Valar created for themselves to live in, it wasn't even designed for The Eldar.

Aman, Myths Transformed
But the Eldar were not native to Aman, which had not been, by the Valar, designed for them. In Aman, before their coming, there had dwelt only the Valar and their lesser kindred the Maiar

Aman therefore would be different from Arda Unmarred since it would be created to fit the needs of Valar, who were eternal and could adapt themselves to any style of living. But in Arda Marred it was changed a little to accumulate the Elves, who also were immortal within Arda that is; and in Aman the withering of their Hroa slowed down.

Aman, Myths Transformed says,

But since Aman was made for the Valar, that they might have peace and delight therein, all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purpose of inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of the life natural to their kinds on Earth should in Aman be one Valian Year.

Now men's Hroa could have also been given that speed, but what would have happened to Men's fea which was Fated from the start to depart from Arda?
The answer iself lies in Aman, Myths Transformed
But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men. What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman nor by the will of Manwë himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.
Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hroa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hroa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy

But Arda unmarred would have been different; It would have been like Arda of later ages, without the poision of Melkor present in its very flesh and effecting those who were made of the flesh of Arda. It wouldn't have been like Aman; It would have been made in such a way as to accumulate men, whose fea wasn't longevial like Elves.

Myths Trasformed tells us the concept of Arda Unmarred,

'Arda Unmarred' did not actually exist, but remained in thought - Arda without Melkor, or rather without the effects of his becoming evil; but is the source from which all ideas of order and perfection are derived. 'Arda Healed' is thus both the completion of the 'Tale of Arda' which has taken up all the deeds of Melkor, but must according to the promise of Ilúvatar be seen to be good; and also a state of redress and bliss beyond the 'circles of the world'.)

Therefore, the question lies whether Morgoth was able to corrupt the fea of Men to such an extent that its life was effected?
No, i don't think so; men from the start were fated to die, although I belief life in Arda Unmarred wouldn't have been as fast as on Arda Marred; the hastening effected caused by Morgoth's influence, but Men would still be able to live upon it because it would designed to accumulate their life form..

[aragil]

Is the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth of any import here?

[Nóm]

Sure it is... I just mentioned 'Aman' to be sure it was taken into consideration.

[aragil]

Not having been around in a while I was unsure if there is any consensus on Andreth's position: total hogwash or one with potential merit?

[Beleg]

Aragil read this thread, specially the first few pages:

Numenorean Life-span (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12308)

On what do you base your opinion that Aman was different than Arda Unmarred in such a way that men could not live in Aman even if unfallen, yet they would have been able to live in Arda Unmarred?

On the point that Men's fea from the begining was fated to depart from the earth and due to the happiness, bliss, relatively slow aging of Hroa [Men's hroa would have been needed to be tuned with Aman time], the Hroa would want to spend greater time on Aman and the hroa and fea would thus enter into a continous dispute.

The text speaks of fallen men, that they could not have lived in Aman... but is there no way that Unfallen Men, even if destined to leave Arda, would have been different in such a way that they could have lived there?

I don't think so, what do you think about it??

I more or less agree with the Tale of Adanel, except that I don't believe All men accepted Morgoth as their Lord in the begining.

[Arvedui]

This thread is exactly one of the major reasons why I love TTF. I always learn something new, read a new angle to look at things written.

I have always thought that death was a gift given to Men by Ilúvatar. An end that they would come to even if they had not 'fallen'. Therefore, I have always thought that it does not really matter if Arda was Marred or Unmarred. The fëar of Men was not and is not bound to Arda, but is under the judgement of Ilúvatar.
Why?
Because the way I see it, there are two reasons:
First: I do not think that Morgoth have the power to un-make the designs of Ilúvatar. After all, he is only an offspring of Ilúvatar's thoughts!
And the tale of Adanhel as given is in my opinion an attempt of Men to explain to themselves that they were originally of the same stature as the Firstborn. An attempt to reason away that they were never given an immortal life.

Second: I have always believed the concept of Arda Unmarred as an utopia. Melkor as all the other Ainur, was an offspring of Ilúvatar's thought. What was so special about Melkor was that he was an offspring mainly of Ilúvatar's dark sides. (Yes, I know that this has been discussed before.) And throughout the Music of the Ainur, Ilúvatar knew very well that Melkor was not totally within his own preffered limits. Therefore the rebuke: And thou Melkor, shall see that... etc, etc.
Remember that the coming of the Children were conceived by Ilúvatar alone, after the discord of Melkor.

So to round up:
Men and Elves, both fallen and unfallen were made for Arda Marred, as there were never any "other" Arda available.

But after reading what others of you have said before me, I realize that I might have been wrong. But I could of course also be right...;)

[Arvedui]

It could certainly be.

In the case of the Firstborn, it would also explain why the Valar did not comprehend the death of Miriel.
It could also explain why a long time passed before Mandos was given the power to summon the fëar of those that died.

Now, to Men:
I still think that Man's tradition, as voiced in the Athrabeth and the Tale of Adanhel, is just some sort of excuse that they have made up to explain to themselves why Men die, and Elves don't.

They wake up in a world were there is already a human-like life-form. But they discover that there is a major difference between the two kinds: One dies (themselves), the others are immortal. How to explain this, when you don't have any connection with someone that can explain it to you?
You make an explanation.

On the other hand, you might be very right. Quite some time passed from the moment the Firstborn awoke until the Secondborn awoke. Ilúvatar may have used that time to think through his design concerning Men, and decide that he needed to change things a bit. So he made Men with fëar that were not bound to Arda!

That would of course require him to be sufficiently involved in Arda, which he was not!;)