Round 8: Guild of Tolkienology vs Guild of Scholars' Hall [Archive]

Eriol

10-09-2003, 03:26 PM

Well, assuming that the Scholars are ok with that question, here is the opening post... if they are not ok with it, forget this post :).

***

The Tolkienologists will defend the position that the limitation of the Istari's powers DID prolong the war against Sauron.

There are a few issues of definition that we'd like to clear up at the beginning.

First: the two options being considered here are (1) limited Istari (what took place in the actual story) and (2) unveiled Istari. If we extend the discussion to all possible actions by the Valar, it would become very open-ended. For instance, we could discuss whether Eönwë was supposed to let Sauron slip away or not... whether the Valar should have arrested Sauron in S.A. 1... many variables that would be very hard to sort out.

Second: a definition of what exactly was involved in the "limiting" of the Istari's powers.

From Letter 156:

... By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.

From UT, the Istari; forgive the translation, I only have UT in Portuguese:

[Spoken at the Council of the Valar deliberating on the Istari's mission]

'Who would like to go? For they must be powerful, Sauron's peers, but they will have to forget the power and clothe themselves in flesh, so as to deal with elves and men with an equal standing and to win their trust. But this will place them in danger, diminish their wit and knowledge and beset them with fears, worries and fatigue coming from the flesh'

So, as it seems, the limitation was incarnation; of a fuller and more complete kind than the "raiment" of the Ainur. This incarnation would result in weariness, pain, fear, and other bodily concerns. Another limitation (I'm not sure if it is directly related to incarnation) is the ban on imposing themselves by sheer power upon the free peoples. Again free translation from that UT essay:

... now their [of the Valar] emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of awe, or to attempt to govern the wills of men and elves by sheer demonstration of power, but rather by presenting themselves in weak and humble shapes, with instructions to advise and persuade men and elves toward goodness and to unite in love and understanding all those who Sauron would, upon his return, attempt to dominate and corrupt.

Whether or not this limitation is inherent to their incarnate forms or a simple command is not important; it may be added to incarnation as the two major modes of limitation of the Istari which are to be discussed in the debate; unless there are other limitations which escaped me in this opening post.

Now, we must consider the alternate scenario; the Valar send unveiled Maiar to deal with Sauron. That means Maiar who are not incarnate, and who are free to use their power in the attempt to achieve their goals; rooting out Sauron's servants, and altogether preventing Sauron’s reappearance.

I suppose it is unquestionable that the Istari were faithful at the beginning; Gandalf himself say so of Saruman. So if we had unveiled and faithful Maiar in charge of the "resistance" against Sauron and his servants, there is no clear reason why they would not achieve their goals much more quickly and efficiently. Not having to persuade Elves and Men, being able to command them, they would have kept strict guard over Mordor, destroyed Angmar and the Ringwraiths, etc. We are talking about at least five Maiar of the same stature of Sauron (though less powerful), as Manwë says. The total number of Istari is unknown... we know only of the five sent to the North of Middle Earth.

While the question of the debate encompassed the wisdom of the decision, it was more debatable; my own personal opinion is that the limitation of the powers of the Istari was very wise, for reasons set out both in the Letters and in the UT essay. But it prolonged the war. Five (or more) Istari set without any limitations to rally the free peoples and fight Sauron’s minions would shorten the war enormously. Consider: Gandalf alone remained faithful, and he managed to do it almost by himself. If there were five faithful unveiled Maiar in action, what chance would Sauron have?

What would happen after Sauron was defeated is open to speculation; would they take up his throne and become tyrants themselves? Who knows? But one thing we do know – the war would have been shorter; more likely it would not have happened at all, as Sauron would be down before he got up.

baragund

10-09-2003, 11:00 PM

The Scholars are OK with the topic. Maedhros should be posting his devastatingly brilliant response:D late this evening or tomorrow.

Maedhros

10-10-2003, 07:42 AM

The Topic is: Did limiting the powers of the Istari by the Valar prolong the war against Sauron?
Lets us make some clarifications on certain concepts:

From Morgoth’s Ring: Later Quentas
Ëalar: 'spirit' (not incarnate, which was fëa, S fae). ëala 'being'.
Maiar and Valar are of course ëalar.

From Vinyar Tengwar 39: Ósanwe-kenta
Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of [i]hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.
"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate."

So we can see that actually the difference between the self-arrayed and the incarnate. The restriction set by the Valar on the Istari, was that they used a body for their interactions in ME, therefore they became incarnates. They had the same necessities as the other incarnates in ME not because the Valar made it so, but because of the process of Incarnation itself.

One might question then, what exactly was the limitation that the Valar had on the Istari:
From Unfinished Tales: The Istari
whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.
So it would seem that the limitation on the Istari were:
1. Were incarnated.
2. Could not display openly their powers.
3. Seek to unite in love and understanding the peoples of ME against Sauron.

The Valar send the Istari to fight against Sauron. They were supposed to free ME of his evil influence and not to simply replace one evil lord for another, for that would serve no purpose at all.
A note, those were the limitations that the Valar had set upon them. This does not mean however that all of the Istari acknowledged them. For instance, it is no where stated that they were less powerful than their normal spirit state, they were just prohibited to display such powers openly.

Why would one think that unrestricted maiar would be more effective in the fight against Sauron? How could one make both Elves and Men fight against Sauron if not because they believed it to be the right thing to do? Why would revealing themselves in their majesty would help them in achieving this?
The Valar had tried that before to make the Elves go with them to Valinórë, and while some of them did eventually go, some of them didn’t (a very big part of the Elves). If the great Valar failed to do that, why would lesser Maiar succeed? It of course makes no sense, and that is why the Valar used those restrictions.

Why would unrestricted maiar would be more faithful to the War against Sauron than with their restrictions?
Saruman in the beginning was jealous of Gandalf because of the Ring that Círdan gave him. And that was just before they began their journey. Why would they be able to work together, harmoniously? If the Istari as my friends of GoT state,
I suppose it is unquestionable that the Istari were faithful at the beginning; Gandalf himself say so of Saruman. So if we had unveiled and faithful Maiar in charge of the "resistance" against Sauron and his servants, there is no clear reason why they would not achieve their goals much more quickly and efficiently. Not having to persuade Elves and Men, being able to command them, they would have kept strict guard over Mordor, destroyed Angmar and the Ringwraiths, etc.
From Unfinished Tales: The Istari
And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.
Is this faithfulness? I don’t think so. If the Istari behaved as my friends of the GoT states ordering Elves and Men, what would make them different from Sauron? They would have taken their first steps towards becoming him.
I think that Ósanwe-kenta explains this beautifully:
How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwë and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwë was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom.
If Manwë had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force. Would we then have the sorrows that indeed befell; or would we have the Elder King lose his honour, and so pass, maybe, to a world rent between two proud lords striving for the throne? Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough.
If the Istari could not compel Men and Elves to fight against Sauron of their own free will, if they made them do it, they would have just become like Sauron or worse, prolonging the War against evil. The War is a war against evil, which Sauron was the enemy. If you would replace Sauron with another Maia or Maiar, it would be the same thing or worse.
Posted by GoT
What would happen after Sauron was defeated is open to speculation; would they take up his throne and become tyrants themselves? Who knows? But one thing we do know – the war would have been shorter; more likely it would not have happened at all, as Sauron would be down before he got up.
So, one or two Istari would have overthrown Sauron, and taken his place, would the Valar need to send more Istari to oppose them? It makes no sense. The War was against evil, which Sauron personified, the objective was defeating the evil not Sauron per se. If Sauron was defeated and Saruman would take his place, then it would be the same thing. Worse even if one of the Istari would have taken the One Ring as their own. If they did that, the spirit of Sauron would have lived still.

Lhunithiliel

10-10-2003, 02:05 PM

Did limiting the powers of the Istari by the Valar prolong the war against Sauron?

Did it, really?
But of course it did!
Why I think so, I'll come to that a bit further herein.

Before I comment on that, I’d like to throw in just a few words in response to what my beloved sonny has said:

Maedhros:

The Valar send the Istari to fight against Sauron. They were supposed to free ME of his evil influence and not to simply replace one evil lord for another, for that would serve no purpose at all.

I see here some misunderstanding and contradiction in those words of yours my sonny! ;):
Look at the quote from UT again!
…..(the Istari) were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.
It is so clearly stated! The Istari were NOT sent to fight Sauron! Nor it was expected from them to throw down one king (whoever) and provide ruling for another!

They had the task of uniting the races of ME. Their main task was to spread the “seeds” of “good” and thus “cure” those mental “wounds” that evil (Melkor first and Sauron later) had inflicted upon the once healthy and friendly social environment in which the Children of Eru used to live.

And all that needed time! Long were the years in which evil in ME was left untaken care for!
If the war against it was for this reason prolonged it is only a side effect, which of course is both – a logical consequence and an inevitable one (see above reasons).

As for the other comments in Maedhros’s post I get the feeling that there is some misunderstanding mostly concerning the matter of the Istari’s influence upon Men and Elves. But I’ll leave this to Eriol to handle! ;)

Because …. I’d rather like to comment on another aspect – namely duration of the war.

I am paying attention to this aspect for I find it asked in the very question of the debate: “Did limiting the powers of the Istari by the Valar prolong the war against Sauron?”

I’d say it was a long war…. But of course we should be careful at using words! For the word war is :
1/ A situation in which two or more countries or groups of people fight against each other over a period of time.
2/ A situation in which there is aggressive competition between groups companies countries etc.
3/ A fight or an effort over a long period of time to get rid of or to stop sth. unpleasant.
Oxford Dictionary of Contemporary English, 2000.

Now… What is there to be seen and learnt, that would concern our debate?
The very essence of the word “war”! It clearly states that this phenomenon is time-absorbing and time-involving.

Further on, taking into consideration the events as described in the book, it’s simple to see and agree on, that the war itself in the meaning of direct military strikes took not too much time in comparison to the period of the events that preceded those battles!

And that preliminary period was the one when the Istari did their work under the limitations imposed on them.
Should they’ve come to ME in forms and with powers others than the ones imposed upon them, should they’ve come in the form of glorious and invincible warrior-kings then it would’ve quickly led to direct military actions = war.

But that war would’ve been completely meaningless! That war would’ve been a battle between powers that did not belong to ME. That war would’ve not changed the situation, for one evil representative would’ve been thrown down only to be in time replaced by another one (as Maedhros commented in his post and provided marvellous quotes).
Was that the purpose of sending the Istary to ME?

Not at all!

At the beginning of my present post I made myself clear on this point.
So… to send “unrestricted” Maiar = Istary would’ve shortened the period of time one would call a war.
But the aim was never this one! The aim was never the war itself!
The aim was to … let me again quote those words so well said:
… to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding…

Therefore the only logical and inevitable consequence of limiting the powers of the Istary was that the war against Sauron as the representative of Evil, was indeed a long one… taking into consideration and NOT forgetting about the period of time that proceeded the direct military actions.

baragund

10-11-2003, 05:33 AM

This is intended to complement Maedhros' opening post to describe the Scholar’s position that the limiting of the Istari’s powers did not prolong the war against Sauron. And although it is not intended to specifically counter Eriol's and Lhun's positions, it does give a holistic contrast to the Tolkienologist’s position. The passages I'm quoting is from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in the published Silmarillion. Toward the end of that section of the book is discussion on the coming of the Istari, the forming of the White Council and the events leading up to the War of the Ring. Referenced dates are from The Tale of Years, Appendix B, LOTR.

The passage in question begins by verifying the purpose of the Istari, to "... contest the power of Sauron, if he should rise again, and to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds." It then goes on to describe the Istari and their initial mission with respect to Sauron, which was one of surveillance and monitoring. It was after the first meeting of the White Council, when Saruman successfully argued to continue their policy of watching and waiting, did Elrond make the prediction to Gandalf that “…The One will yet be found, and then war will arise again, and in that war this Age will be ended. Indeed in a second darkness it will end, unless some strange chance deliver us that my eyes cannot see.” Now keep in mind the Istari had been in Middle Earth since about the year TA 1000. The first meeting of the White Council was in 2463 and there was no outright conflict with Sauron until 2941 when the White Council supposedly drives Sauron from Dol Guldur. The conflict, of course, reaches its climax with the War of the Ring in 3019.

What this suggests is a narrowing of the definition of the “war against Sauron” to the actual War of the Ring in TA 3019. During most of their stay in Middle Earth in the Third Age the Istari was following a policy of containment toward Sauron as opposed to warfare. Now you may ask ‘What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?’ and the answer is the war ended in the cataclysmic action (to Sauron anyway) of Frodo throwing the One Ring into the Cracks of Doom. The valiant deeds of Frodo, the Fellowship and the events leading up to the assembly of that famous group were inspired, coordinated, encouraged and cajoled by Gandalf, the only Istari to remain true to his mission. This approach turned out to be way more effective than some kind of new War of Wrath with the Istari descending to ME in all their unveiled glory.

What would be the alternative? Maedhros already discussed the very real possibility of Sauron being merely replaced by one of the Istari due to the corrupting influence of the Ring or their own hubris. Well the only other scenario is no better. Suppose Sauron was defeated by strength of arms but the Ring was not destroyed. The unveiled Istari could not take the Ring themselves without falling under its power and they could not force an Elf or Man to cast it into Mt. Doom. The result would be Sauron never being truly vanquished and an endless cycle of Sauron rising again and again, and multiple wars of attrition. Looking at the matter this way, the Istari coming in a humble form and using the power of persuasion to inspire the free peoples of ME to undertake the task of willingly destroying the Ring SHORTENED the war against Sauron by bringing it to it’s only possible successful conclusion.

Eriol

10-11-2003, 06:50 AM

There are two main points to be addressed in the Scholars’ arguments:

1)The definition of the mission of the Istari (Maedhros)
2)The definition of the war on Sauron (Baragund)

What was the mission of the Istari?

Posted by Maedhros:

The War was against evil, which Sauron personified, the objective was defeating the evil not Sauron per se.

I can’t agree... it seems to me that the mission of the Istari would be completely hopeless, since there was no way in which they could defeat evil. It is an inherent part of Arda Marred. I won’t post quotes from the Athrabeth and from other parts of HoME X unless the Scholars require it… I think it is pretty much accepted by all.

I will post some quotes from Gandalf himself as pertains the scope of his mission, though.

Before that, I must point out – also – that even if the mission of the Istari were to defeat evil, that is not the question of the debate. If they, in an unveiled state, could wipe out Sauron in a single day, and immediately afterwards take up his throne and begin a new age of oppression, this would still have shortened the war against Sauron… to the great grief of the peoples of Middle-Earth, no doubt; but it would be a shortening, still.

Now, quotes from Gandalf regarding his mission:

RotK, The Last Debate

‘Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule’

And even more clearly:

RotK, The Steward and the King

‘The Third Age was my age. I was the Enemy of Sauron; and my work is finished. I shall go soon. The burden must lie now upon you [Aragorn] and your kindred.’

No, for me at least it is clear that the Enemy was Sauron, not impersonal evil; so much so that Olórin says that he does not want to come “because he fears Sauron”. They had a clear job description, to deal with Sauron; at least this is how Gandalf apparently perceived it. New evils might come, and would come, but they were not to be his burden.

There are other questions in Maedhros’ post, such as the possible unfaithfulness of Saruman; the quote he offered pointed at Saruman’s pride, I think, not treachery. We know Saruman was proud. But there is no evidence – and there is Gandalf’s testimony to the contrary, as well as the entire White Council experience – that he was not faithful at the beginning...

I think his incarnation, and his forced humility (which is among the limitations imposed on the Istari by the Valar – within the scope of the debate’s question), helped to push him over the brink. But the point about the lessened risk for unfaithfulness is not focused at that... it is rather that the Istari would arrive as victorious commanders who could not be withstood by any (since Sauron was still missing). They would face no opposition. There would be no one “on the other side”.

This is also a point that has some bearing in my answer to Baragund... unveiled Maiar would be like a preemptive strike :D. There would be no war against Sauron; since there would be no Dol Guldur, no Angmar, and a prosperous Northern Kingdom under the protection (or as thralls) of the Istari.

You can’t shorten a war more than that ;).

Now, point 2: When did the war on Sauron begin? (Baragund)

The Scholars are arguing for a narrowing of it to the beginning of the actual hostilities at the War of the Ring, in 3019. Now, there are several grounds for this opinion to be rejected. One is that many conflicts happened way before Sauron reappeared, but undeniably through his influence, since the Ringwraiths don’t have a will of their own. When the Witch-King founded Angmar, he was doing it for Sauron. When the Ringwraiths took over Minas Ithil, they were doing it for Sauron. The fact that the Free People did not know that Sauron was behind it does not make it less true. Note also that the White Council did know that Sauron would eventually reappear – when Gandalf discovered the Necromancer’s true identity, his (and the Council’s) reaction was not surprise at the resurrection of an enemy, but rather the acceptance of a struggle that was foreseen of old. They knew Sauron would reappear some day.

Another reason for this narrowing to be rejected is the very creation of the White Council – a body created for the express purpose of opposing Sauron. As baragund said, this took place in 2463; but there were some scary moments before that. From the Tale of Years:

2060 – The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again.

2063 – Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East. The Watchful Peace begins. The Nazgûl remain quiet in Dol Guldur.

2460 – The Watchful Peace ends. Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur.

There are many instances of battles and confrontations in the Tale of Years that are directly attributed to Sauron; even if we overlook the fact that any action by the Ringwraiths falls into that category, we have, as examples,

c. 2480 – Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.

(in 2509 Celebrían was waylaid at the Redhorn pass...)

2885 – Stirred up by emissaries of Sauron the Haradrim cross the Poros and attack Gondor. The sons of Folcwine of Rohan are slain in the service of Gondor.

Another reason to consider the whole of the Third Age, or at least the last two millenia – after the foundation of Dol Guldur – as “the war on Sauron” is the perception of the characters involved. “The long defeat”, Galadriel calls it...

And this enormous timespan is the one we are claiming would be shortened – considerably – by the appearance of unveiled Istari, in unknown numbers.

But let us assume, for one moment, that we are considering only the War of the Ring. Would the unveiled Maiar have shortened that conflict? Most assuredly! They would have prepared for it with more efficiency; Gandalf would probably have discovered the true nature of the Ring much more quickly (we are speaking of the wisest of Maiar here... there were many discussions in TTF about Gandalf’s delay in perceiving that; and I think that the “diminishing of the wit” that Manwë said would accompany the incarnation can’t be overlooked). They could have travelled to Mount Doom invisibly! And, if they fell to the temptation of the Ring – that would still have shortened the war. For if one of the Istari fell to that temptation and became the master of the Ring and became a tyrant... what chance would Sauron have? Not much.

As long as we focus on the question asked – which points at the war on Sauron, not the war on evil or the happiness of the free people or the wisdom of the Valar – then the answer is clear, in my opinion: the war would have been shortened.

Maedhros

10-11-2003, 09:10 AM

Posted by GoT
It is so clearly stated! The Istari were NOT sent to fight Sauron! Nor it was expected from them to throw down one king (whoever) and provide ruling for another!

Are you sure?
From Letters 156
Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain.
It is interesting to note that, if the Istari were not send to fight Sauron, why would JRRT state that Gandalf at that point had failed in his mission, and that mission being to direct the resistance to Sauron. Of course the Istari were forbidden to use their powers directly, but their purpose was to fight the evil of Sauron.
ibid. Gandalf speaking:
In the end before he departs for ever he sums himself up: 'I was the enemy of Sauron'. He might have added: 'for that purpose I was sent to Middle-earth'.
I think that Gandalf knows what he is saying.
Posted by GoT
And that preliminary period was the one when the Istari did their work under the limitations imposed on them.
Should they’ve come to ME in forms and with powers others than the ones imposed upon them, should they’ve come in the form of glorious and invincible warrior-kings then it would’ve quickly led to direct military actions = war.
It is interesting to post effects with no causes and their explanations. Suppose that the Istari came with forms glorious and as warrior kings as my friends of GoT says, why would both Men and Elves would follow them blindly to war? How much time would they need to do such a thing?
Remember, all of the unrestricted Istari would not be perfect? None were:
ibid.
But in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with this world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the fainéance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods'.
Image as my friends of GoT say:
So if we had unveiled and faithful Maiar in charge of the "resistance" against Sauron and his servants, there is no clear reason why they would not achieve their goals much more quickly and efficiently. Not having to persuade Elves and Men, being able to command them, they would have kept strict guard over Mordor, destroyed Angmar and the Ringwraiths, etc.
If the faithful Maiar would not have to persuade by command them, they would have taken their first steps toward becoming Sauron or worse. Saruman could have well become jealous of the other Istari and allied himself with Sauron as he did. What then if they had won? What if they were in a stalemate? The War would have been longer that it normally was?
Using the definition given by my friends of GoT, the actual warfare would have been longer. The good thing is that my friends of GoT agree with this:

That war would’ve not changed the situation, for one evil representative would’ve been thrown down only to be in time replaced by another one (as Maedhros commented in his post and provided marvellous quotes).

Posted by GoT
I can’t agree... it seems to me that the mission of the Istari would be completely hopeless, since there was no way in which they could defeat evil. It is an inherent part of Arda Marred. I won’t post quotes from the Athrabeth and from other parts of HoME X unless the Scholars require it… I think it is pretty much accepted by all.
This is what happens when you don’t read my quotes as they should be:
The War was against evil, which Sauron personified, the objective was defeating the evil not Sauron per se.
The Istari were send to ME to resist Sauron because he was a maiar of greater powers than the Men or Elves in ME. If the Istari would have defeated Sauron but one of them would have taken his place instead, then they would have accomplished nothing. Suppose that Sauron was defeated, and that Saruman would have taken his place as the New Lord, do you think that Gandalf would have said: “Well, Sauron is defeated, my work is done?” Of course not, it makes no sense whatsoever. But our friends of GoT say that:
No, for me at least it is clear that the Enemy was Sauron, not impersonal evil; so much so that Olórin says that he does not want to come “because he fears Sauron”. They had a clear job description, to deal with Sauron; at least this is how Gandalf apparently perceived it. New evils might come, and would come, but they were not to be his burden.
Saruman usurping the place of Sauron as the dark Lord would have not bothered Gandalf then. Wow.

If they, in an unveiled state, could wipe out Sauron in a single day, and immediately afterwards take up his throne and begin a new age of oppression, this would still have shortened the war against Sauron… to the great grief of the peoples of Middle-Earth, no doubt; but it would be a shortening, still.
Wipe out Sauron in a single day? Hehe. I guess these are the nukes Istari then. Nowhere it is stated that the incarnate Istari have less power than being disincarnate if you will. They just had restrictions on them by the Valar. But Saruman broke the rules, how does my friends of GoT know that he didn’t use all of his power. My guess is that he did use his might. Which means that they have not all of that great power that my friends of GoT would have us believe.
Posted by GoT
We know Saruman was proud. But there is no evidence – and there is Gandalf’s testimony to the contrary, as well as the entire White Council experience – that he was not faithful at the beginning...
From Unfinished Tales: The Istari
And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.
Faithful to the quest, but bore ill-will to one of his fellows. I wonder if that would hinder his task.

it is rather that the Istari would arrive as victorious commanders who could not be withstood by any (since Sauron was still missing). They would face no opposition. There would be no one “on the other side”.
So at that time there were no Orcs or creatures of Sauron anywhere in ME? The Istari would just come and by their inherent powers destroy all of the evil creatures in ME? Hehe. A good fairy tale perhaps, but it doesn’t makes sense. Consider. In the First Age, if Sauron with all of his might, Morgoth could have send him to go and destroy the elves with his inherent power. He would just go there in spirit and when he saw his enemies he could use his power of magic balls (or whatever) and vanquish his enemies in no time. But, why didn’t that happen then. Perhaps it is because that is not the way that it works. Either that, or Morgoth is a complete moron. I will go with my first option then.

Posted by GoT
And this enormous timespan is the one we are claiming would be shortened – considerably – by the appearance of unveiled Istari, in unknown numbers.
Hehe. Unveiled Istari in unknown numbers who can cast magic powerballs from their beings and destroy hundreds and hundreds of Saurons servants in an instant. Hmmmmm. Let me think about it. Naaaaa.

Posted by GoT
But let us assume, for one moment, that we are considering only the War of the Ring. Would the unveiled Maiar have shortened that conflict? Most assuredly! They would have prepared for it with more efficiency; Gandalf would probably have discovered the true nature of the Ring much more quickly (we are speaking of the wisest of Maiar here... there were many discussions in TTF about Gandalf’s delay in perceiving that; and I think that the “diminishing of the wit” that Manwë said would accompany the incarnation can’t be overlooked).
Why would they have prepared with more efficiency? Because you say so? I don’t buy it. Saruman, using not magic powerballs as our friends from GoT would have us think, would have still had a grudge against Gandalf and could ultimately twarth the plans of the good guys so to speak. If the unveiled Istari would command armies because of their might, they would have become very much like Sauron and they could have battled themselves.

Posted by GoT
They could have travelled to Mount Doom invisibly! And, if they fell to the temptation of the Ring – that would still have shortened the war. For if one of the Istari fell to that temptation and became the master of the Ring and became a tyrant... what chance would Sauron have? Not much.
This is a very odd thing to post. The Ring is part of Sauron, it was made with his power. You can’t really separate the two. If an Istari would gain the ring and usurp the place of Sauron, his power would have remained in the Istari and his influence. He would be forever bound with him.

Lhunithiliel

10-11-2003, 08:52 PM

It was numerous times pointed out what the exact mission of the Istary was and it is quite clear that none of them was sent from the West to directly oppose Sauron.

The Schollars asked:
Are you sure?[

How can I not be, if I read the following:
Letter 144:
Istari. Their origin was not known to any but a few (such as Elrond and Galadriel) in the Third Age. They are said to have first appeared about the year 1000 of the Third Age, when the shadow of Sauron began first to grow again to new shape. They always appeared old, but grew older with their labours, slowly, and disappeared with the end of the Rings. They were thought to be Emissaries (in the terms of this tale from the Far West beyond the Sea), and their proper function, maintained by Gandalf, and perverted by Saruman, was to encourage and bring out the native powers of the Enemies of Sauron.
..or
Letter 156:
Why they should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them.
To my understanding, it cannot be said clearer than that! And whatever interpretations might be on part of the readers, the ultimate authority has the author himself. If Tolkien says so, then it is so!
The limitedIstari were sent with a difficult mission and that mission needed great efforts but taking into consideration their limited powers it also needed a large span of time. Which in fact occurred.

I try to keep it simple.
The question of this debate is whether or not the limiting of the powers of the Istary prolonged the war against Sauron. And keeping it simple and trying not to lose the main subject out of sight, I say a simple “Yes”.
And the simple reason for this I have explained in simple terms and words, which may not be too impressive and perhaps lacking many quotes to back them up… But a simple fact should not be IMHO turned into a complex one just for the purpose of concealing its simplicity. For me it is enough to trust the words of Tolkien.

Yet, I’ll try to stay “tuned” with the going on discussion, which in its own is a very interesting one, though slightly drifting away, perhaps, from the question of the debate.

The question what the Istari’s power and influence upon the events and the main forces of the greatest conflict of that age would’ve been, should they’ve come to ME unlimited, seems to have already strongly engaged the minds of the debaters here ;)

It has been already pointed out by my team-fellow Eriol, that unveiled=unlimited Istary would’ve ended the conflict “in no time” ;) He provided his arguments in many details and these details were taken up by our opponents and commented on also in details and backed up with numerous quotes therefore ….. Even “What if”- scenarios have been suggested and analysed…
Our friends, the Scholars try to persuade us that this can not be so.
A debate within a debate? ;)
No harm! ;)
It may eventually lead to find some conclusions concerning the main question of the main debate!

For all that has been said on part of GoT tends actually again and again to make it clear that limiting the Istary’s powers prolonged the war against Sauron. Otherwise that war, that heavy crisis in ME, would’ve been settled and done with in much shorter terms.

True to the principle of simplicity, I’d rather seek a counsel on this matter again with Tolkien himself.
Here what the Professor has to say about it all, quoting him from that letter 156, which seems to have become the “Bible” for this debate ;) :
The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned…. Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' …
Now… this has everything to do with the quote our opponents brought up, namely:

Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain.

So… you see, it turns out that as many efforts and much time had been spent in vain – persuading and teaching etc… the mission of the Istary, limited by the Valar, obviously failed!
Then and only then, the ultimate Authority – Eru himself, made his move by sending an Emissary with powers. To what purpose? To end the conflict as soon as possible using his “angelic” powers openly whenever it was needed. The result of sending to ME a new-generation-Istary brought the events to a swift and fortunate end.
ONLY ONE was enough with such special and not too much restricted powers to take the whole plan to a favourable end! Only one… but with powers only partially limited! And that strongly speeded up the events towards their end.

Now tell me, what would’ve happened if all those Istary, who were sent at the start came to ME with the same only partly limited powers?

As I said earlier in this post – this inner debate within the main one eventually did lead us to some conclusions.

Namely that: Limiting the Istary prolonged the war against Sauron.
Because unlimted Istary would’ve shorten it.

Eriol

10-12-2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Maedhros
The Istari were send to ME to resist Sauron because he was a maiar of greater powers than the Men or Elves in ME. If the Istari would have defeated Sauron but one of them would have taken his place instead, then they would have accomplished nothing. Suppose that Sauron was defeated, and that Saruman would have taken his place as the New Lord, do you think that Gandalf would have said: “Well, Sauron is defeated, my work is done?” Of course not, it makes no sense whatsoever.

But that's what he said when Sauron was defeated. And it is also beside the point of the debate -- the war against Sauron would be finished. Perhaps the "mission of the Istari" wouldn't; but the war on Sauron would be finished.

Saruman usurping the place of Sauron as the dark Lord would have not bothered Gandalf then. Wow.

Perhaps it would have bothered him enough to ask for reinforcements ;). But the war on Sauron would still be finished.

Wipe out Sauron in a single day? Hehe. I guess these are the nukes Istari then. Nowhere it is stated that the incarnate Istari have less power than being disincarnate if you will. They just had restrictions on them by the Valar. But Saruman broke the rules, how does my friends of GoT know that he didn’t use all of his power. My guess is that he did use his might. Which means that they have not all of that great power that my friends of GoT would have us believe.

It was stated in the essay of UT, both by the author of the essay and by Manwë, that the incarnate Istari would have many "ailments of the flesh", including pain, weariness, fatigue, a diminishment of the wit... all of these result in a diminishment of power. These quotes were offered before. The incarnation itself takes away a few powers -- like the power to "change raiments". So yes, it is stated that the incarnate Istari have less power than disincarnate Istari. Also, the "wiping out Sauron in a single day" is just an example. Make it 10 days, or 10 years, if you wish :). But if they had done that, they would have shortened the war; even if they had wiped out not only Sauron but half the population of Middle-Earth in the process.

We are questioning the duration, not the wisdom, in the debate...

So at that time there were no Orcs or creatures of Sauron anywhere in ME? The Istari would just come and by their inherent powers destroy all of the evil creatures in ME? Hehe. A good fairy tale perhaps, but it doesn’t makes sense. Consider. In the First Age, if Sauron with all of his might, Morgoth could have send him to go and destroy the elves with his inherent power. He would just go there in spirit and when he saw his enemies he could use his power of magic balls (or whatever) and vanquish his enemies in no time. But, why didn’t that happen then. Perhaps it is because that is not the way that it works. Either that, or Morgoth is a complete moron. I will go with my first option then.

Hehe, I like the magic balls :D. There isn't any in GoT posts, but I like it.

As for the method the unveiled Maiar would employ to fight Sauron, in my view it is simply... the same thing they used to fight him in their incarnate state. Mustering armies to kill orcs, strengthening military positions, increasing goodwill among the Free Peoples... they would do it more efficiently, that's our claim. Why? Because they would have the authority and the power of open emissaries from the Valar. Elves would not disobey them, and faithful Númenóreans wouldn't, either -- they had a bad record of disobeying the Valar ;).

This is a very odd thing to post. The Ring is part of Sauron, it was made with his power. You can’t really separate the two. If an Istari would gain the ring and usurp the place of Sauron, his power would have remained in the Istari and his influence. He would be forever bound with him.

And the war on Sauron would be over... it's not the war on evil, it's the war on Sauron we're talking about.

Elfarmari

10-13-2003, 02:47 AM

My personal logic, with no real quotes to back it up, is this: If the Istari had come to ME with all their native power and authority, perhaps elves and men would have followed them. However, what would they have done? At the time the Istari came, Sauron was still without physical form, and the One Ring was still hidden. Would it have been possible for the Istari to discover the One Ring? Would even unveiled Maiar be able to find the location of Isildur's demise and find the ring hidden at the bottom of the river? I would think the answer would be no. Even if the Istari were able to defeat Sauron in his invisible form in a short time, the Ring would have still remained. The destruction of the Ring was brought about by an improbable chain of events, all stemming from the fact that Olorin the maia was unable to use his inherent powers. Gollum found the ring when it was seeking for its master, Sauron, who was gaining power. Gandalf worked with Thorin Oakenshield to destroy Smaug, which he would not have needed to do had he not been incarnate. For whatever reason, he insisted on bringing along Bilbo, who found the ring and took it from Gollum. Without this chance occurrence, the Ring could not have been found by Gandalf and destroyed.
Originally posted by Eriol
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a very odd thing to post. The Ring is part of Sauron, it was made with his power. You can’t really separate the two. If an Istari would gain the ring and usurp the place of Sauron, his power would have remained in the Istari and his influence. He would be forever bound with him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the war on Sauron would be over... it's not the war on evil, it's the war on Sauron we're talking about. [/B]
If the One Ring remained, Sauron would not be completely defeated. Sauron was defeated as far as his incarnate form went in the downfall of Numenor and at the end of the Second Age when he was overcome by Elendil and Gil-galad and had his ring taken by Isildur. These were not really victories in the fight against Sauron, as Sauron was not completely vanquished. Only by destroying the Ring as well as Sauron himself could Sauron be utterly destroyed.

Maedhros

10-13-2003, 08:34 AM

Fundamental Flaw

As I read the opening post of the debate by my friends of the GoT, I have to admit that I was amazed at their approach support their view. Even as I read it, I knew that there was a fundamental flaw in it. I just didn’t notice it until now. Consider the following:

The topic is:
Did limiting the powers of the Istari by the Valar prolong the war against Sauron?
One thing that has been erroneously assumed in this debate is that the Istari would use the powers openly and reveal themselves in all of their majesty to the Free Peoples of ME, but that should not be taken for granted. The topic only says that the Valar would not limit their powers, it doesn’t say that they couldn’t limit their powers on their own accord.

Now, the logic of my friends of GoT is that
Posted by GoT
While the question of the debate encompassed the wisdom of the decision, it was more debatable; my own personal opinion is that the limitation of the powers of the Istari was very wise, for reasons set out both in the Letters and in the UT essay.
Posted by GoT
Five (or more) Istari set without any limitations to rally the free peoples and fight Sauron’s minions would shorten the war enormously. Consider: Gandalf alone remained faithful, and he managed to do it almost by himself. If there were five faithful unveiled Maiar in action, what chance would Sauron have?
And
Posted by GoT
What would happen after Sauron was defeated is open to speculation; would they take up his throne and become tyrants themselves? Who knows?
Consider, my friends think that the restrictions set by the Valar upon the Istari were very wise. They think that the war against Sauron as a result would be more shorter and that it is very possible that they could replace Sauron with one of the Istari.
Posted by GoT
Therefore the only logical and inevitable consequence of limiting the powers of the Istari was that the war against Sauron as the representative of Evil, was indeed a long one…
But wouldn’t the wise Istari know this? Wouldn’t they know that if they reveal their powers openly, they would risk becoming like Sauron or worse?
From the Letters: 156
In any case none of my 'angelic' persons are represented as knowing the future completely, or indeed at all where other wills are concerned. Hence their constant temptation to do, or try to do, what is for them wrong (and disastrous): to force lesser wills by power: by awe if not by actual fear, or physical constraint.

Why were the Istari send to ME?
From the Letters: 181
There is no 'embodiment' of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology. Gandalf is a 'created' person; though possibly a spirit that existed before in the physical world. His function as a 'wizard' is an angelos or messenger from the Valar or Rulers: to assist the rational creatures of Middle-earth to resist Sauron, a power too great for them unaided.
The problem is that Sauron was a being of native power which was greater for the creatures of Middle-Earth to deal with them, that is why the Valar send the Istari. The Istari being maiar like Sauron could lead the resistance against the evil that Sauron represented. If Sauron was defeated but one or several (Istari) would take his place as a Dark Lord, then the new Dark Lord or Lords would still be a power far too great for the peoples of Middle-earth to handle. Their mission was to overcome that greater than life evil, be it Sauron or anyone else. Can you imagine for one second, that if Saruman would have overtaken Sauron and would have ruled in his place, can you imagine Gandalf and the other Istari leaving ME because they had defeated Sauron only, while leaving a maiar like Saruman to rule instead? I can’t.

In view of all that we have seen, and with the previous fact that the Valar had tried before to use their full might to attract the Elves to Valinórë, which didn’t end up well. Wouldn’t the Istari know that the only way they could defeat the evil that Sauron represented was to convince the peoples of Middle-earth to resist him by their own free will, and not to either force them or dazzle them, both approaches which could make them take their first steps into becoming Sauron. Wouldn’t the Istari, instead of showing themselves in forms of majesty and splendour, would try to convince them by reason, and that the only way to do that was to become incarnate as to feel for themselves how the peoples of ME were and how did they feel in order to appeal to them better? Wouldn’t they know that it would be a long resistance against Sauron? Yes they would, as my friends of GoT have already said. Wasn’t that the only way they could have succeeded against him. Yes, it was the only way for them, because to force the people of ME by either force or awe was wrong and they knew that. They would have had to incarnate themselves, and the story would have just been the same.

Lhunithiliel

10-13-2003, 09:34 AM

Elfarmari:
My personal logic, with no real quotes to back it up, is this: If the Istari had come to ME with all their native power and authority, perhaps elves and men would have followed them. However, what would they have done?
They would have speeded up the events and the war against Sauron, as the new arising evil over ME, would have been finished much earlier!

But….I see it’s worth repeating once again that this was NOT the Istari’s mission! And drawing one more quote out of “my sleeve”, let me again point at this mission :
The istari are translated 'wizards' because of the connexion of 'wizard' with wise and so with 'witting' and knowing. They are actually emissaries from the True West, and so mediately from God, sent precisely to strengthen the resistance of the 'good', when the Valar become aware that the shadow of Sauron is taking shape again.
Tolkien’s Letter 156

Apart from pointing to the true mission of the Istari, the highlighted section in the above quote also shows that the Istari were sent when the presence of Evil was once again sensed “in the air”. So, the Gods tried to make their move in due time as to do everything possible to organize the races in ME who still were faithful to Eru and the Valar against the arising evil.
No direct conflict a Maia vs. a Maia was ever planned by the Valar, therefore they limited their Emissaries’ powers.
Time was needed!!! Time to strengthen the faithful in ME and NOT to do the job instead of them! Time!!!
And time it took! Because of limiting the powers of the Istari.

Elfarmari:
If the One Ring remained, Sauron would not be completely defeated. Sauron was defeated as far as his incarnate form went in the downfall of Numenor and at the end of the Second Age when he was overcome by Elendil and Gil-galad and had his ring taken by Isildur. These were not really victories in the fight against Sauron, as Sauron was not completely vanquished. Only by destroying the Ring as well as Sauron himself could Sauron be utterly destroyed.
Very true! But what does this prove, concerning the question of the present debate, please?

Our friends say that Sauron would’ve not been destroyed without destroying the Ring. We do not deny this!
But let’s not forget :

1/ The question of the debate is : ” Did limiting the powers of the Istari by the Valar prolong the war against Sauron? ….and not against evil in general.

Because:

2/ Evil could never be entirely overcome completely! Remember :
'Deep indeed run the roots of Evil,' said Borlas, 'and the black sap is strong an them. That tree will never be slain. Let men hew it as often as they may, it will thrust up shoots again as soon as they turn aside. Not even at the Feast of Felling should the axe be hung up on the wall! '
UT, “The New Shadow”

Ring or no Ring, Sauron or another one…. Evil has many faces! The struggle against it will never end because its presence is woven in the very “substance” of ME – both material as well as spiritual.

While the Istari were still with limited powers their actions in ME, though sensed and with certain results, eventually failed, after having lasted for quite much time!!! But when the crisis went deeper and when it was clear that limiting the Emissaries’ powers would endanger the desired outcome of the whole “plan”, an unveiled Istari (and only one was enough!) was sent with only partly limited powers and he “saved the day” !
The Ring was destroyed and so was Sauron. Not evil! But Sauron – yes.

It wouldn’t be fair if I give all the credits to Gandalf and if I don’t mention that the resistance of the faithful in ME had grown immensely! Of course, it came as a result from the years-long work of the limited Istari (Gandalf mainly) that the forces of good had come to be already well organized and directly opposed against the direct representative of evil – Sauron by the time of the final combats.
Tolkien comments on this:
He (Gandalf) seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgûl to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed — and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands.
This was able because of the long-years of efforts by Gandalf mainly to “strengthen the resistance of the 'good’ ”.
But we are here to debate whether or not the war against only one of evil’s personifications – Sauron, was shortened because of limiting the powers of those opposing him – the Istari.

Should the Istari have come to ME unlimited they would’ve used their special Maiar’s skills for quite many reasons. Can we be sure that they wouldn’t have found and destroyed the Ring earlier using these unlimited powers?
Please! The “What if”-scenarios could be numerous!!! IMO, we should stick to the events as given in the story as it was written.
And the story tells us that the Istari were limted in their powers when they first came to ME! Therefore, a lot of their actions were hindered and subdued to the incarnate form they were limited into.

Limited Istari were all right for a mission with the main purpose of “strengthening the resistance of the 'good’”. This mission was aimed at NO direct interference with the matters of the population of ME, but rather with “help”. This mission needed time…but what is time to immortals!?! So… “working” on their mission (succeeding or failing in it) the limited Istari had all the time they needed. And time went on! And that is why we see how the events we call “war against Sauron” developed in a large span of time.

When however this mission failed, the moment came when unlimited Emissaries were needed to speed up the events and so they did.

To sum it all up for now:
1/ Limted Istari – a perfect choice for a mission that involved only “techniques” like persuading and teaching and organizing the forces of good. This was time-involving mission, and therefore the war against Sauron, was prolonged.

But still that was the main reason – not demonstrate angelic powers but rather teach how to use “normal” powers in the never ceasing fight against evil!

2/ Unlimited Istari Gandalf – using only part of his Maia powers he makes it possible for the success of Frodo’s mission (which BTW he himself had organized).
This proves that if the Istari came to ME unlimited right from the beginning, the events would’ve been sped up to its final result in much shorter time-terms.

But to what result? Would then Elves, Men, Hobbits, Dwarves and other forces of good in ME have understood that the destiny of the world they all lived in, depended on their will to fight evil? No! It would’ve been easy – “We have the Gods to take care of us”
But the Earth was not and should not be the concern of the Gods but of the races that inhabited it. These races had to be taught from …within.
This is what the limited Istari were sent for. That was their mission. And that mission took a large span of time. Therefore the war against Sauron was prolonged.

Eriol

10-13-2003, 03:54 PM

Elfarmari points out that without the destruction of the Ring, Sauron would not be defeated at all. Surely that is a metaphor -- ask Sauron himself whether he was defeated or not at the Last Alliance :). Without the destruction of the Ring, to be sure, the evil of Sauron would linger; though perhaps it might linger dormant for many centuries, as it did before it was found by Gollum.

The only sure thing in this "Sauron x Evil" debate as concerns the Ring of Power is this: Sauron can be defeated without the destruction of the Ring; since he was defeated before in such a manner. And if we assume that "the war on Sauron" ends only with the destruction of his spirit, well, his spirit was not destroyed... so again we are imposing on the Istari an impossible job. No, their job was neither to destroy Sauron's spirit, nor to destroy impersonal evil -- it was to defeat Sauron's incarnate form. To kill him, one more time. If the Ring had not been found, the only hope would be in arms; but it would be a hope, as it was once before.

Now, if you compare the strength of the West in the time of the Last Alliance and the strength of the West in the time of the War of the Ring, you see an enormous weakening through time. The kinstrife and consequent loss of Umbar, the end of Arnor, growing estrangement between men and elves, etc. etc.

Why wouldn't unveiled Maiar, with the authority of emissaries from the Valar, prevent or at least slow this trend? I think the burden of proof is with the Scholars in this question. Why couldn't even one unveiled Maiar use his authority to stop the kinstrife, or prevent the destruction of Osgiliath? We see of Gandalf the White that he has an enormous authority, even when he faces Denethor himself. Sure, he chooses to hide this authority, but he has it; and when there is need he uses it. He is no longer limited. This is the only unveiled Maiar that we have access to in the story, and even so he is not "fully" unveiled -- he is still incarnate. But many of the limitations imposed upon him were withdrawn by Eru. Look at his performance after that!

If you consider that there were many Istari available (and not only one), this becomes a certainty. There is no way in which the trend towards weakening in the West could not be stopped or slowed by the unveiled Istari. The unveiled Maiar would be able to reason (as I did) that the only way to kill Sauron without the Ring was to use force, and they would build up the military strength of the West through centuries... How could this not shorten the war? I think it would prevent it altogether -- Mordor would surely be on the West's hands, and Minas Ithil... the Ringwraiths would be destroyed if they showed their faces around...

All this is speculation, and fun :). It's not too productive, though, as Lhun pointed out. The big question is -- why would unveiled Maiar perform less efficiently at building up resistance and preparing for war than limited Maiar? That is the question without an answer, so far; all of the scenarios imagined by the Scholars do not address it.

That is, until Maedhros' last post :).

Originally posted by Maedhros
One thing that has been erroneously assumed in this debate is that the Istari would use the powers openly and reveal themselves in all of their majesty to the Free Peoples of ME, but that should not be taken for granted. The topic only says that the Valar would not limit their powers, it doesn’t say that they couldn’t limit their powers on their own accord.

(...)

Wouldn’t they know that it would be a long resistance against Sauron? Yes they would, as my friends of GoT have already said. Wasn’t that the only way they could have succeeded against him. Yes, it was the only way for them, because to force the people of ME by either force or awe was wrong and they knew that. They would have had to incarnate themselves, and the story would have just been the same.

A good suggestion by Maedhros -- that the unveiled Maiar would act just as limited Maiar did, because it was the best chance for overall success (and this consideration is not limited to "the war on Sauron", but to success "in the big picture"). It need not be pointed out that it is but another scenario, i.e. speculation. But refer back to the example of Gandalf the White. He does not become a big bully. He does not try to force his will upon other people. In that sense, he acts exactly as Maedhros is describing. However, he is still unlimited, or less limited, than Gandalf the Grey; and it shows. He has a greater authority, and a greater power, and a sharper wit.

So yes, we can accept Maedhros' scenario without losing our position in the debate; it is far from being a fundamental flaw. It remains on the Scholars' shoulders to prove or at least try to explain why would the presence of Gandalf as "the White" from the beginning of the story prolong the war. He is the wisest of the Maiar, he would use his powers in a wise way :). Even if he uses persuasion and understanding, he will still be more efficient. If he falls to the temptation of dominating other wills, he will be more efficient still. There is no scenario in which he can be less efficient in opposing Sauron.

That sentence, "from the beginning of the story", can be taken in two ways. The first sense, restricted to the War of the Ring and its immediate surroundings -- say, the period depicted in LotR -- is quite enough for the GoT position. Gandalf the White, without the "diminishment of the wit" that is inherent to incarnation (according to Manwë), would surely be able to identify the hobbit's ring as the Ring of Power much earlier; he would be able to cast it into Orodruin or to send a hobbit to do the job many decades before Sauron declared himself openly. He would not be arrested by Saruman, since Saruman (even if treacherous) would not be aware of the Ring. There are so many small mistakes that would have been avoided... and I am again falling back into speculation. But that should be the Scholars' job. They are the ones who must point out why a sharper Gandalf would not make sharper decisions.

The second sense of "the beginning of the story" is "since the Istari's arrival" -- the sense in which the "war on Sauron" began in the depths of time, when Sauron attacked Eregion, with many victories and many defeats (as Elrond said in the Council). And in that sense the greater wit and power and authority of the unveiled Istari would be even more useful. But I don't want to repeat the military and political speculations of the beginning of the post. I'll wait for an explanation from the Scholars, as to how Istari with more power, authority, and wit, with less pain and fatigue, could have been less efficient in their job.

Remember Gandalf the White.

baragund

10-15-2003, 05:17 AM

Lhun had a wonderful suggestion a while back to keep the terms of this debate simple. I am a devout follower of the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid!)

First, I would like to establish the ABSOLUTE NECESSITY of destroying the One Ring in order to truly defeat Sauron, and then establish that only veiled Istari (partially or fully) could facilitate the destruction of the Ring and, thus, the true defeat of Sauron.

In his last post, Eriol appeared to be making an argument that it is not necessary to destroy the Ring in order to defeat Sauron, that he could be defeated by force of arms using unveiled Istari. Now he is going to have to provide a whole boat-load of backup to demonstrate this because one of the central themes of the legendarium during the Third Age is the symbiotic nature of Sauron and the Ring. Here are just a couple of quotes from “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age” from the published Silmarillion that addresses what Sauron put into the creation of the Ring and what happened when the Ring was destroyed:

quote:

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron Made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. AND MUCH OF THE STRENGTH AND WILL OF SAURON PASSED INTO THAT ONE RING; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency...

This one addresses the destruction of the One:
quote:

Then Sauron failed, and he was utterly vanquished and passed away like a shadow of malice; and the towers of Barad-dur crumbled in ruin, and at the rumour of their fall many lands trembled.

You can also scan through the last 3 or so pages of the chapter "Mount Doom" in ROTK. That has some wonderfully descriptive passages of the sheer panic that gripped Sauron when he realized what was about to happen to the Ring, and then the complete destruction of he and his kingdom when the Ring was destroyed.

Without the destruction of the Ring, the scenario that Eriol portrays would be an endless cycle of epic battles like the Last Alliance where the might of Sauron may be thrown down, but his spirit remains to regenerate. It may take a couple of millennia like it did during the Third Age, but it will happen. This is no way to hasten the destruction of Sauron!! The ONLY way to truly defeat Sauron once and for all is to destroy the Ring.

Now let’s talk about how the Istari, veiled or unveiled, would go about achieving the destruction of the Ring. Lhun and Eriol seem to think that an unveiled Istari could somehow resist the evil powers of the Ring. Eriol engages in some speculating of his own, describing how an unveiled Istari could cast the Ring himself into the Cracks of Doom or “send a hobbit” to do the deed.

Here are some particularly moving passages from “The Shadow of the Past” from FOTR. The first is the famous passage where Frodo tempts Gandalf with the Ring:

“’You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?’

‘No!’ cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. ‘With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.’ His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. ‘Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.’”

Gandalf’s reaction here was something that struck at the very core of his being, not some technical diminishment of power as a result of his veiling. The Ring was supremely corrupting to any of the Istari. Gandalf was wise enough to understand this. Saruman fell to the corrupting power of the Ring and he never even got near it! No, they could not destroy the Ring themselves. A third party had to do it.

The second passage from “The Shadow of the Past” addresses how someone could not be forced to destroy the Ring, for it would “break [his] mind”. So the only way the Ring could be destroyed, thereby achieving the true defeat of Sauron, was if one of the free peoples of Middle Earth were to willingly cast it into the Cracks of Doom.

I do not see how an unveiled Istari could do a better job of persuading somebody to carry out such a mission than a veiled Istari. Indeed, the veiled Istari would be more effective, being cast in a Man’s body and fully aware of all of the trials and tribulations the Children of Iluvatar go through in Middle Earth. They can and did relate better to the different peoples than appearing as some kind of deity out of the sky.

Regarding to the partially veiled Gandalf that the Tolkienologists alluded to, and his interventions during the war, this was merely a leveling of the playing field between Sauron’s forces and the forces of the West. Don’t forget, it was predominantly mere mortal Men who were fighting “magical” and “mystical” creatures such as the Maia Sauron, along with his Nazgul, orcs, and trolls. The Elves definitely had a secondary role in the war, and without a “ringer” like Gandalf on their side, Gondor and Rohan would have been simply outgunned. Gandalf was buying time and creating a diversion so the real mission, Frodo destroying the Ring, could be successfully accomplished.

So here is the simple break down:

· Sauron could only be truly defeated through the destruction of the Ring.
· The Istari could not wield the Ring themselves.
· They needed one of the peoples of ME to willingly cast the Ring into Mt. Doom.
· The most viable way to accomplish this was to appear as one of them and use their powers of persuasion and encouragement.

Lhunithiliel

10-15-2003, 01:22 PM

Thanks for the KISS, baragund! ;) :D

I'll leave enough space for Eriol to comment.

I'll however return the a.m. ;) very briefly:

· Sauron could only be truly defeated through the destruction of the Ring.
And was he? What do we know exactly of what happened to his dematerialized (as far as it was ) Maia "soul"?
The thing is that for the moment, ME was freed (finally!) from one incarnation of evil. This war was meant for that in the sense of direct military actions = battles.

It was in fact the preceding period that occupied much efforts and time with limited Emissaries having been sent on a mission.

This mission, in the sense of to lead to a direct war, failed as is known. After such a long time no direct opposing was achieved. An unveiled Istari was needed for that. And he was provided. And when he came - the war finally broke out.

But it was successful in the sense of uniting the forces of good in ME against evil. 4-th Age started in bliss....and continued so...untill the rising of the "new shadow".
But this has little (if anything) to do with the topic of the debate!

· The Istari could not wield the Ring themselves.
· They needed one of the peoples of ME to willingly cast the Ring into Mt. Doom.
· The most viable way to accomplish this was to appear as one of them and use their powers of persuasion and encouragement.
True. And it all took a large span of time! - which is what the GoT is aiming to prove! That all these Emissaries with all their "techniques" of teaching and persuasion needed time and this in fact prolonged the direct war against Sauron.

A KISS from me for all of you! ;) :D

Eriol

10-15-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by baragund
So here is the simple break down:

· Sauron could only be truly defeated through the destruction of the Ring.
· The Istari could not wield the Ring themselves.
· They needed one of the peoples of ME to willingly cast the Ring into Mt. Doom.
· The most viable way to accomplish this was to appear as one of them and use their powers of persuasion and encouragement.

Point by point:

1) "Defeated" is not the same as "destroyed". Sauron was defeated at the Last Alliance. In fact I remember a quote in which Gandalf (or Elrond) in the Last Council says exactly that: that Sauron was "defeated, but not destroyed". (It is that quote that is followed by "the Dark Tower was cast down, but its foundations endured", or something like it; I'll hunt for it later).

I don't know why the Last Alliance was a "false defeat", or "not a true defeat". As I said in my last post, ask Sauron if he thought that was a false defeat ;). It's not the same as what happened when Ar-Pharazôn attacked Sauron -- that was a false defeat. That was a ruse used by Sauron to destroy the hated Númenóreans. But the Last Alliance? Surely it was a defeat for Sauron.

The rebuttal of this first point in effect negates all the other points of baragund... especially because we agree with the others :D. But to link Sauron's defeat with the destruction of the Ring is erroneous; and empirically so. He was defeated once without any harm to the Ring. Now, if you want to talk about Sauron's destruction, or crippling (I think crippling is a better word because Sauron's spirit was not absolutely destroyed), I will agree that destroying the Ring was essential.

But that is not the question of the debate.

The other points are mostly correct in my opinion, but they need clarification:

2) "The Istari could not wield the Ring themselves". Surely that omits an important caveat: "without being corrupted by the Ring's power". For the Istari could wield the Ring. As Gandalf's quote, in baragund's post, says explicitly. Sure, Gandalf would be corrupted by it, but he would still wield it. And what would be the effect of his wielding it? A shorter war with Sauron.

Remember, we're not discussing whether the limitation of the Istari's powers was wise, but only if it prolonged the war on Sauron. A "ringer" like Gandalf, with the Ring, would defeat Sauron much more quickly. What would happen later is NOT the point of the debate; Gandalf would become a tyrant, but Sauron would have been defeated. (And this shows another way in which Sauron can be defeated without the destruction of the Ring...)

3 and 4) "They needed one of the peoples of ME to willingly cast the Ring into Mt. Doom." Not to defeat Sauron, they didn't; they needed a hobbit to cripple Sauron and destroy the Ring. There is no doubt that this is the wisest way to deal with the problem; and therefore I don't see why unveiled Maiar would not do exactly that. I mention again that incarnation results in diminishment of the wit; and that therefore non-incarnate Maiar would be smarter and wiser. They would see the wisdom of point 3 as well as we are seeing it now. And they would probably follow that plan -- more efficently. What would be in Gandalf's way to realize the true nature of the Ring much earlier, and arrange things much earlier? Would Gandalf the White be a worse ally than Gandalf the Grey? Would he not see as clearly the need for getting rid of Smaug, as well as many other needs?

One thing is for certain -- the actual timetable of the War of the Ring was the most stretched timetable imaginable! Frodo casts the Ring into Mt. Doom at the same time as the forces of the West are being crushed on the last battlefield! Sure, it makes for great storytelling :D. But I doubt that a wiser and smarter Gandalf would have preferred it for that reason. In effect, the Scholars' position amounts to saying that any and all decisions by Gandalf were the perfect ones; that no improvement was possible. If there was any room for improvement; and if there was any chance that this improvement would have been effected by more powerful and wiser Istari -- then the limitation prolonged the War.

Note, this last reasoning assumes that the Istari would deal with the situation in the same way: trying to cast the Ring into the Fire. It is a reasonable assumption because they would be wiser. But that is also the slowest way to deal with the situation; if any of the Istari fell to the temptation and wielded the Ring, we'd have -- a shorter war.

Any way we look at it we have a shorter war.

And I didn't even mention again the strategic and military concerns that would occupy the mind of the Istari until the Ring was found. We'd have no Angmar, no kinstrife, a lot of seeing stones, a strong and unified Arnor, a strong Gondor, no Minas Morgul, Mordor under the control of Gondor... If the Istari could, wielding their full authority as open emissaries of the Valar, guide the Free Peoples in that aspect as well (and why wouldn't they?), we'd probably have the shorter war of all -- no war. Sauron was powerful, but he needed orcs and men to command. He needed lands under his control. The Istari knew that.

Niniel

10-15-2003, 03:13 PM

Attention debaters! The debate ends tomorrow at 2.26 PM CET! So come to your final remarks please!

Elfarmari

10-15-2003, 11:07 PM

(this is not closing remarks, sorry I wasn't able to post this earlier)

Sauron could not be truly defeated without the destruction of the Ring. While the Ring remained, Sauron remained, and could rise again. In The Last Debate in LotR, before Gandalf speaks of how it is not their part to concern themselves with all evil, he says:
Gandalf, The Last Debate, LotR
"Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough fort the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can forsee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed."
letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #131 To Milton Waldman
There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will.
My argument is that this was the purpose of the Istari: to defeat Sauron. While it was obviously not their mission to destroy all evil, and impossible task, it was their mission to defeat Sauron. Because Sauron had put so much of himself into his Ring, as long as it existed, he existed.

Gandalf, the Council of Elrond, LotR
"Then let all put doubt aside that this thing is indeed what the Wise have declared: the treasure of the Enemy, fraught with all his malice; and in it lies a great part of his strength of old."
letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #211 To Rhona Beare
The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself.

From the Council of Elrond, of the Last Alliance: Sauron was diminished, but not destroyed. His Ring was lost but not unmade. The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure.
The Istari were not to diminish Sauron, they were to defeat him. Had unveiled Maia taken the Ring, the war against Sauron would not have been over: Sauron would live on in his Ring. There was no direction to the Istari to destroy Sauron's body and call it quits. That had already been done several times. Gandalf, even in his limited state, realizes that to destroy Sauron, you must destroy his Ring. Again, in his limited state he realizes that the only way to do this is to keep it away from those possessing enough power to wield it, for the temptation would be too great. While this may have made the fighting war longer, it shortened the war against Sauron by utterly destroying him the first time. There was no need to destroy his body, and then find means to destroy his Ring, now wielded by another Maia who would not be likely to willingly relinquish it.

Captain

10-15-2003, 11:10 PM

Please forgive that I do not have the time to find quotes to back up my statements. We have seen throughout literature and history that great power and divinity causes many responsibilities. In the Hebrew Scripture, God was responsible to lead the breakup, well-being, and unification of his people. Sometimes there are those who do not have the spiritual depth to bear these resposibilities such as Saruman, whose duplitic activities we are well aware of. With no limit to a Maia's powet, we can assume that even one of great celestial nature such as Olorin would not have a will abstinent enough to engage these great responsibilities. We saw that Gandalf refused to take the Ring, for fear it should overcome him. You can not be sure that unrestricted powers would allow him to bear the Ring, let alone make choices resulting in Sauron's defeat. As a closing statement, it is very logical that this is the reason the Valar restricted the Istari, as I do not recall the reason having been stated.

Lhunithiliel

10-16-2003, 10:50 AM

CLOSING POST

The question of the present debate was:
Did limiting the powers of the Istari by the Valar prolong the war against Sauron?

The GoT team is defending the opinion that :

Yes , it was so. Limiting the powers of the Istari led to the effect of prolonging the period of time known in the history of Middle-earth as the War of the Ring which we also call here – the war against Sauron.

At the beginning of this closing post I find it necessary to provide a brief overview of the situation in ME by the time the Istary appeared, because I find it essential for the mission of the Istari to be well understood.

Third Age is the age of the war of the ring or as Tolkien calls it : “…concerned mainly with the Ring” (Letter: 131).

What does it tell us? A whole age throughout which the events were directed to one purpose - unite the forces of good against the forces of evil – the evil incarnated in Sauron and in its own turn – into the Ring and finally – destroy them.
A whole age!!!!
Can this time be called a long time? Well… who could argue this ?!?

But here comes a question - Why did it take a whole lot of years from that age for the peoples of ME to realize the danger, to finally perceive the presence of evil and to understand that unallied they will fall?!
And this one leads to the other – What did the Gods do as to help the free races of ME in their struggle against Sauron?

To answer the first one I’ll use a short summery done by Tolkien himself, describing the situation in ME, which description is absolutely enough in order to understand the dangerous circumstances and the overall very complicated and unfavourable situation in which the Emissaries from the West found themselves when they came to ME – a situation that has its roots far from the depths of the Second Age!

Letter 131:
He (Sauron) lingers in Middle-earth. Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power – and so consumed ever more fiercely with hate (especially of gods and Elves). ….. the Shadow is growing in the East of Middle-earth, spreading its sway more and more over Men – who multiply as the Elves begin to fade.

They (the Elves ) wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. They thus became obsessed with 'fading', the mode in which the changes of time (the law of the world under the sun) was perceived by them.

The Dark Lord is no longer on his throne, but his monsters are not wholly destroyed, and his dreadful servants, slaves of the Ring, endure as shadows among the shadows. Mordor is empty and the Dark Tower void, and a watch is kept upon the borders of the evil land.

The Elves still have hidden refuges: at the Grey Havens of their ships, in the House of Elrond, and elsewhere. In the North is the Kingdom of Arnor ruled by the descendants of Isildur.

Southward athwart the Great River Anduin are the cities and forts of the Númenórean realm of Gondor, with kings of the line of Anárion. Away in the (to these tales) uncharted East and South are the countries and realms of wild or evil men, alike only in their hatred of the West, derived from their master Sauron; but Gondor and its power bars the way.

The Ring is lost, for ever it is hoped; and the Three Rings of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West.
It is clearly seen that the races in ME had a way of life and policy of living separately and that they had lost the healthy atmosphere of friendship and co-operation, which only strongly facilitated Sauron in gaining more strength and influence in territories that might be considered completely forsaken and forgotten by the Gods .
And this is precisely what happened – evil started demonstrating its presence.

Pity that it took the free peoples of ME about 1000 years to really pay attention to the new danger!
But the fact is that at around year 1000 of the T.A. it became obvious that Evil had risen again and it also became obvious that it should be fought back!

This explains the necessity in organizing and uniting the forces of the free peoples of ME against the rising evil.
This was the first step – though a giant one and a most difficult one, to be undertaken.
However, the peoples of ME seemed to not care much.
Something had to be done! Someone had to intervene!

At this moment we inevitably come to answer the second of the above asked questions, namely : What did the Gods do as to help the free races of ME in their struggle against Sauron?

To start with, we should point out that the Valar, although thought to be totally neglecting the affairs of the peoples in ME through the ages, never in fact dropped their “guard” and assistance, guidance and care.

Of course, as Tolkien himself stated: “Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world.” (L.156)

The Valar were obviously highly concerned with the affairs of the peoples in ME and had to find the right w ay to overcome and hinder the rising force and influence of the new representative of evil. But they could not do that in and through direct actions .
Therefore, the Gods decided to send Emissaries to ME – Maiar – embodied and limited in their “angelic” powers, wise ones to :
>> to encourage and bring out the native powers of the Enemies of Sauron;
>> to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding;
>> to train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them;
>> to contest the growth of the Shadow, and to move Elves and Men to beware of their peril.
(all above are quotes taken from Letters and UT)

In the light of the above described situation, it is obvious that these Emissaries had quite a difficult mission which needed their whole attention, a lot of effort s and patience – all these were time-involving activities !

*******
tbc

Lhunithiliel

10-16-2003, 10:52 AM

continued| :
*********
On the other hand it is essential for the present debate to pay special attention to the fact that they were limited in powers .
What exactly the se limitations were?

UT, “The Istari”:
Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

One would of course wonder – why were they limited? Why weren’t they allowed to use their special powers as to speed up the events and to overthrow Sauron sooner?
Above I already provided a short statement by Tolkien who explains it quite clearly that the Gods were not allowed to interfere directly in the matters of the Children. Yet, they had to take care of the situation. And sending limited Istari was their solution.

But still - why limited ? !!!!
Wouldn’t it be much easier to send those “angels” in their full powers?! That would’ve helped them perhaps to find the Ring sooner, destroy it and thus defeat Sauron! Or …why not use it?! Lead the free peoples of ME into a glorious battle against the new evil and destroy it before it had gained its power?! Win a glorious war and show the Children that the Gods had not forsaken them…

A good scenario! But impossible! And unreasonable!

Tolkien once said in one of his letters: “ You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy…”
To send their Emissaries in full powers, to let them wield the Ring …all that might have shortened the “pleasant” stay of Sauron in ME…but to what end and for what reason? This could’ve only led to replacing one representative of evil with another, because the Ring was strongly and dangerously corruptive and the embodied Istari were:
“… in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed'…” which explains the “fear” Gandalf showed when offered to take the Ring.

No! The Istary had a completely other mission and the GoT has cleared this throughout its previous and in the present closing posts.
Their mission was to organize and persuade the free peoples of ME that it was time to unite against the “new shadow” and through them – oppose Sauron ; not to directly face him!

That cleared, now it is easily seen that to achieve their goals the limited Istari needed a long span of time, therefore it was the reason why the direct hostilities against the allied forces of Sauron were prolonged.

And this is exactly GoT-team’s position in the present debate and this is the logical result we see from sending limited Istari into a mission that probably needed some other approach.
But to comment on the wisdom of the decision of the Valar and on the outcome of the whole mission itself – this is not the purpose of the present debate! (although the matter was discussed throughout it) Neither it is the subject of the present debate to find out how effective the whole mission was and whether Sauron was eventually destroyed, defeated etc…
The fact stays :
The limited Istari needed a large span of time to prepare the free peoples of ME for their battle against the incarnation of evil in their age. Unlimited Istari was out of the question to be sent in the initial plans of the Gods for reasons already stated above. The only possible way to achieve the Valar’s plan was to send those “angels” but with “tied wings” and let them fight evil with the means and within the powers of the Children.

That took time! That prolonged the war against Sauron.

**********