PDA

View Full Version : Was Bilbo right to offer the Arkenstone of Thrain to Bard?



Arvedui
10-14-2003, 01:27 PM
Was Bilbo right to offer the Arkenstone of Thrain to Bard?

Another topic from the Debate-Tournament.

Enjoy:)

Celebthôl
10-14-2003, 06:53 PM
No i dont believe so at all, I believe that Thorin should have been with the jewel of his house one last time at least, i think it was very wrong what Bilbo did, he may have had good intentions by doing it, but it didnt bring about any results at all. The way i always saw it was that Bilbo was a busy-body. ;)

Sarah
10-14-2003, 09:21 PM
Thorin did say he could chose what he wanted didn't he? Well he chose the stone. The stone was his. He gave it to whom he wanted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Celebthôl
10-14-2003, 09:23 PM
No, Thorin said he can have anything BAR the Arkenstone ;)

Sarah
10-14-2003, 09:32 PM
Bilbo didn't know what the arkenstone was tho. Thorin didn't say, the arkenstone is this big and it's this color, and it's very shiney. NO. Bilbo didn't know. no, he was just like 'ooo, pretty, i want one!'

What can I say, I like shiney things:rolleyes:

Celebthôl
10-14-2003, 09:38 PM
Then why did he run off to Bard and the Elven-king yelling "Here is the Arkenstone of Thrain"? ;)

Legolam
10-15-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Celebthôl
Then why did he run off to Bard and the Elven-king yelling "Here is the Arkenstone of Thrain"? ;) If memory serves me correctly, Bilbo was doing what he thought was right at the time. He saw this stand-off between 2 proud people who wouldn't back down and, being the peace-loving, argument-avoiding little hobbit that he is, he tried to sort things out himself. I get the impression that he was thoroughly fed up with the constant threat of violence, especially AFTER the dragon had been removed and the quest accomplished. Bilbo just tried to get the whole thing over and done with quickly and painlessly so he could go back to his nice little hobbit hole.

Of course, in his naivety, he didn't realise that the Arkenstone was something of great importance to Thorin and unwittingly caused more problems than he solved. But you can't doubt that his heart was in the right place.

Celebthôl
10-15-2003, 05:21 PM
But he stole the Arkenstone BEFORE he decided to use it as a tool for bartering. Before he even knew of the stand-off. He was a thief and he should never have kept the Arkenstone from Thorin. :mad: :)

Arvedui
10-15-2003, 05:37 PM
I believe the question was if Bilbo was right in offering the Arkenstone to Bard, not if it was right to keep it from Thorin...

Once again, I think that Legolam has provided a good explanation. Bilbo was tired of the stand-off and the hatred between Men and Elves on one side, and Dwarves on the other. Also there was a clear danger that there might be war between them.
Bilbo had the Arkenstone. He knew how much it meant to Thorin. He then saw that offering it to Bard was perhaps the only course of action to unlock the stalemate without fighting.

And mind you, he did this without thinking of his own personal safety. After giving Bard the Arkenstone, he went back to the Dwarves, and was honest enough to admit his actions to Thorin, even if he knew that he would get into trouble.

Celebthôl
10-15-2003, 05:44 PM
And what did he have to show for it? What did his actions repocurse to?

Dont forget how much normal jewels and metals are to Dwarves, the Arkenstone meant even more to Thorin, its like one of your friends taking away you most loved possesion and giving it to your rival.

Arvedui
10-15-2003, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Celebthôl
And what did he have to show for it? What did his actions repocurse to?
Not sure what you mean with this.
Are you thinking of what happened after he gave the Arkenstone to Bard?

Celebthôl
10-15-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Arvedui
Not sure what you mean with this.
Are you thinking of what happened after he gave the Arkenstone to Bard?

Indeed i am, what did it ammount to?
Lots of yelling, Bilbo and all Hobbits being cursed, NO gold to change hands, more yelling, possibly some hatred arising(?).
From what i remember anyway. . .

Arvedui
10-15-2003, 06:01 PM
Not to forget that Thorin was willing to give up one fourteenth of the wealth (Bilbo's share) to Bard, thereby unlocking the stalemate.
So Bilbo would have been without his share, but that was the price he was willing to pay, wasn't it. In the end, he didn't bring much with him home, even if he was offered a lot.

Celebthôl
10-15-2003, 06:04 PM
He didn't do this willingly (Thorin), he was cheated out of it, and i can almost guarantee that if the Lake Men and Wood Elves had left, Thorin would have distributed it fairly. But still my point stands ;) nothing came about from Bilbo giving the Arkenstone to Bard.

Aulë
10-15-2003, 06:13 PM
The Hobbit
Soon he stood upon the top, and still went on. Then they saw him halt and stoop for a moment; but they did not know the reason. It was the Arkenstone, the Heart of the Mountain. So Bilbo guessed from Thorin's description; but indeed there could not be two such gems, even in so marvellous a hoard, even in all the world. Ever as he climbed, the same white gleam had shone before him and drawn his feet towards Slowly it grew to a little globe of pallid light. Now as came near, it was tinged with a flickering sparkle of man colours at the surface, reflected and splintered from the wavering light of his torch. At last he looked down upon it and he caught his breath. The great jewel shone before he feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves, who had dug it from the heart of the mountain long ago, it took all light that fell upon it and-changes it into ten thousand sparks of white radiance shot with glints of the rainbow.
Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by it enchantment. His small hand would not close about it for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes, and put it in his deepest pocket.
"Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it-some time. The did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.
As Thol mentioned before, why did Bilbo keep the Arkenstone secret in the first place? He knew that he was doing wrong, yet he kept hold of it.
He considered taking the Arkenstone as his 'share', but what help would that have been had he taken that back to the Shire with nothing else? There wouldn't have been enough gold in the Shire to pay for suck a gem, so he would have been stuck with it for life, with the constant risk of burglars. He also wouldn't have gained any monetary value from it, since he couldn't really buy anything with it.

He was rather silly in keeping it to himself, and probably should have given it to Thorin (given that he didn't know that it would serve useful in the near future). Perhaps Thorin was reluctant to start handing out rewards to the Men of Esgaroth until he had found his prized possession?

Arvedui
10-15-2003, 06:19 PM
Nothing?
Have we read the same book?:D
It was up to Thorin if he wanted to give up an amount of the gold to get the Arkenstone back, and what did he decide?
"It was rightly guessed that I could not forebear to redeem the Arkenstone, the treasure of my house. For it I will give one fourteenth share of the hoard in silver and gold, setting aside the gems; but that shall be accounted the promised share of this traitor, and with that reward he shall depart, and you can divide it as you will.
What then was the reaction to this from the Men and Elves?
"We will give you until tomorrow. At noon we will return, and see if you have brought from the hoard the portion that is to be set against the stone. If that is done without deceit, then we will depart, and the elf-host will go back to the forest. In the meantime farewell"
So this was nothing?
What happened was exactly what Bilbo had hoped!

Celebthôl
10-15-2003, 06:29 PM
Was there any other choise?

The Arkenstone to Thorin was a PC/Mac to us :D (at closest), i mean who can live without it? ;)

He was none to happy about it notice he uses the word "traitor".

Did they bring forth the ammount agreed? NUH UH! :p

ely
10-15-2003, 06:31 PM
No, Bilbo was not right to offer the Arkenstone of Thrain to Bard. It was not his to keep and not his to give. Even Bilbo admits that actually he doesn't have to right to give it to Bard.

But that doesn't mean the Bilbo didn't do the right thing. It was probably the best thing he could do. Desperate times need desperate measures. So, if you catch my point, Bilbo did the right thing by doing the wrong thing. I mean, it was a wrong thing to do in a different situation but it was the right thing do to in that situation.

About Bilbo keeping the stone, no he didn't have the right to do that either, but he felt that a time comes when he will need it, and I'm sure that if the situation had been different, he'd given the stone to Thorin. He trusted his instinct, his inner feeling... and so he also did the right thing by doing the wrong thing.

:D ;) :p

aragil
10-16-2003, 06:47 AM
Was Bilbo wrong in keeping the stone?
From the Hobbit
"All the same, I should like it all plain and clear," said he obstinately, putting on his business manner (usually reserved for people who tried to borrow money off him), and doing his best to appear wise and prudent and professional and live up to Gandalf's recommendation. "Also I should like to know about risks, out-of-pocket expenses, time required and remuneration, and so forth"-by which he meant: "What am I going to get out of it? and am I going to come back alive?"
...
"Thorin and Company to Burglar Bilbo greeting!
For your hospitality our sincerest thanks, and for your offer of professional assistance our grateful acceptance. Terms: cash on delivery, up to and not exceeding one fourteenth of total profits (if any); all travelling expenses guaranteed in any event; funeral expenses to be defrayed by us or our representatives, if occasion arises and the matter is not otherwise arranged for.
"Thinking it unnecessary to disturb your esteemed repose, we have proceeded in advance to make requisite preparations, and shall await your respected person at the Green Dragon Inn, Bywater, at II a.m. sharp. Trusting that you will be punctual.

"We have the honour to remain
"Yours deeply
"Thorin & Co."
There you have it- burglar, not thief, and no mention of exclusion of the Arkenstone. A forward-thinking Thorin should have put it in the contract, if it meant so much to him. In terms of burglaring Bilbo did his fair share- he was certainly more responsible for accomplishing the quest than the thirteen Dwarves put together! Once he posessed the stone, was he right to offer it to Bard and the EK? From the legally binding sense he had no further obligations to the Dwarves- the quest having been fulfilled and he having 'accepted' his payment. Was it morally correct? Other people have argued well that it was the best thing he could do in the situation. For all he knew it was the only way to repay the Lakemen and Elves (who were the ones who had not only helped Thorin and co. out, but who had also slain the dragon and paid the price for his destruction), while at the same time avoiding further bloodshed.

Legolam
10-16-2003, 10:44 AM
The Hobbit
All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it. Don't forget that Bilbo had recently come into possession of the One Ring, the one object in Middle Earth likely to corrupt his innocent little hobbit mind. Maybe he wouldn't have normally taken it, but the Ring was already exerting a subtle influence over him. Does anyone know if he was wearing the Ring at the time of this quote? I don't have my Hobbit handy (in a manner of speaking).


Once again, I think that Legolam has provided a good explanation Yay, thanks Arvedui! It's been a while since I actively searched out some good LOTR topics to get my teeth into, and with all this GoP rubbish going on, I reckoned I may as well start discussing what I came here to discuss. But I'm a bit out of practice, so it's nice to be appreciated!

Arvedui
10-16-2003, 11:39 AM
As Thorin carefully explained, Mr. Baggins was still officially their expert burglar and investigator. If he liked to risk a light, that was his affair. They would wait in the tunnel for his report. So they sat near the door and watched.
They saw the little dark shape of the hobbit start across the floor holding his tiny light aloft. Every now and again, while he was still near enough, they caught a glint and a tinkle as he stumbled on some golden thing. The light grew smaller as he wandered away into the vast hall; then it began to rise dancing into the air. Bilbo was climbing the great mound of treasure. Soon he stood upon the top, and still went on. Then they saw him halt and stoop for a moment; but they did not know the reason. It was the Arkenstone,
I guess the answer to your question is no. Bilbo was not wearing the Ring when he found the Arkenstone. The dwarves could clearly see him.
But that does not take away the influence the Ring might already have on him from previously wearing it.
it's nice to be appreciated! You're most welcome!:)

Celebthôl
10-16-2003, 02:47 PM
2 points. . .

1) That was a letter, NOT a contract ;) therefore it was only a swift guidline on the quest as im sure the Dwarves were running out of time when it was written and didnt have time to read it over and make it perfect. :rolleyes: ;)

2) I think this Bilbo character is a bit greedy ;) 1st the one ring, then the Arkenstone arguably the greatest gem left on ME, tut tut. ;)

Arvedui
10-16-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Celebthôl
2 points. . .

1) That was a letter, NOT a contract ;) therefore it was only a swift guidline on the quest as im sure the Dwarves were running out of time when it was written and didnt have time to read it over and make it perfect. :rolleyes: ;)

2) I think this Bilbo character is a bit greedy ;) 1st the one ring, then the Arkenstone arguably the greatest gem left on ME, tut tut. ;)

LOL!
Grasping for straws, are we?

Celebthôl
10-16-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Arvedui
LOL!
Grasping for straws, are we?

:o

Is it that obvious? :D

Red Istar
10-25-2003, 05:11 PM
Gandalf himself told Bilbo he had done well, methinks. *scrambles to find the quote* ;)

Idril
10-27-2003, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Celebthôl

1) That was a letter, NOT a contract ;) therefore it was only a swift guidline on the quest as im sure the Dwarves were running out of time when it was written and didnt have time to read it over and make it perfect. :rolleyes: ;)



The letter would constitute a legally binding contract as we have an offer for work and consideration (the payment) and Bilbo turned up - therefore an acceptance of the terms. It matters not that it was done in haste.

I think Bilbo did the right thing in offering the stone to Bard and I feel his deed showed that there was infact no greed on his part (about taking and keeping the stone in the first place), only the desire to end the impasse.

Eriol
10-27-2003, 09:08 PM
Was not the Ring at that time just an ordinary magic ring in Tolkien's mind, and not the Superly Wicked One Ring To Rule Them All?

Tolkien changed the Hobbit later to account for the change in the Ring's character... but that action of Bilbo's (keeping the Arkenstone to himself) could not be changed, right? Has anyone here read the 1st Edition of The Hobbit?

What I'm trying to say here is that we can't ascribe Bilbo's actions to the effects of the Ring; unless Tolkien was doing it unconsciously :D.

And I think Bilbo was right -- and very much so.

Snaga
10-27-2003, 09:16 PM
Aragil: the letter said cash. Tell me in what realm gems such as the Arkenstone would be considered 'cash'?

In any case, although it 'appeared' that Thorin might pay for the Arkenstone, they didn't ever receive any. At the same time as he was saying that he would pay, his thoughts were turning to other ideas:
And already, so strong was the bewilderment of the treasure upon him that already he was considering whether by the help of Dain he might not recapture the Arkenstone and withhold the share of the reward. To my mind, Bilbo inflamed the anger felt by Thorin, rather than helping it. The Lakemen and especially the Elves had no right to come and try to threaten Thorin for the treasure. Bilbo's action just added to his sense of injustice.

Dragon
10-28-2003, 01:32 AM
I believe that bilbo giving the arkenstone to bard was
right intentionally ~~in that his intentions were for the best, he was hoping to help everyone

wrong tactically ~~I'm almost positive that was the worst possible way to go about it and yet still get positive results, I can think of a number of other ways to fix the problem that was at hand

and wrong morally ~~while the question is not whether it was right for him to take the arkenstone in the first place, but whether it was right for him to give it to bard, I believe that the morals of him endowing bard with the arkenstone are crudely based on him taking it in the first place. I believe it was wrong for him to take it, and that it was not his, therefore, he didn't have the right to give it away

thol argues that nothing good came of bilbos actions, I disagree, some good things did come, it was simply not apparent that they were in subsequence to bilbos decisions. my point however, is that people often do things in vain. things do not always work as planned, bc of all the factors involved. As far as bilbo could see, it would work perfectly, and his perceptions were all he could base his behavior on. whether good or bad things became of it does not tell us anything, because ppl cannot adjust the future to their liking, they can only predict with so much accuracy before the must use chance, and chance is where the problem lies. there was only a chance that bilbos plan would work correctly.

hope ppl actually understand this....:D :rolleyes: :)

Kelonus
11-25-2003, 09:39 PM
I believe it was somewhat wwrong for Bilbo to give the stone to Bard, because it wasn't his. It belonged to Thorin. Bilbo was going to keep it for himself. How would you like it if someone found something of yours that you worked so hard to find and kept it? I do believe Bilbo gave the stone to Bard for a reason though.

Eledhwen
11-25-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Celebthôl
That was a letter, NOT a contract ;) therefore it was only a swift guidline on the quest as im sure the Dwarves were running out of time when it was written and didnt have time to read it over and make it perfect. :rolleyes: ;) Definition of a Contract in English Law: An OFFER (the job of burgling the dragon's lair) which is ACCEPTED (Bilbo ran to the Green Dragon without even a pocket handkerchief) becomes a CONTRACT (Thorin's letter) when it promises a CONSIDERATION (one fourteenth share of the treasure). The contract is completed when the goods and/or services are exchanged for the consideration.

Thorin's letter was a contract, no matter how hurriedly made or ill considered. His spoken amendment later, excluding the Arkenstone from the contract, was not a valid amendment. Therefore Bilbo could do what he liked with the Arkenstone.

Kelonus
11-25-2003, 09:56 PM
I understand that, but what I meant by I felt it was somewhat wrong, was Bilbo knew how badly Thorin wanted the stone. That was mostly what he wanted. Just the fact of not being considerate I meant.

Eledhwen
11-25-2003, 10:08 PM
On that logic, Frodo should have given the One Ring back to Sauron. Sometimes the greater good is served in another way. If Bilbo had given the Arkenstone to Thorin, received his 14th share in gold, given it to Bard and the Elves who then toddled off back home, the Orc attack would have wiped the dwarves out, swiftly followed by the lakemen, then possibly Thranduil too.

omnipotent_elf
11-26-2003, 02:13 AM
To my mind, Bilbo inflamed the anger felt by Thorin, rather than helping it. The Lakemen and especially the Elves had no right to come and try to threaten Thorin for the treasure. Bilbo's action just added to his sense of injustice.

snaga is right. Bilbo added to the mistrust which throin had with the lakemen and elves. Anyways, the elves inparticular had locked Thorin away. The matter should have been dealt with...diferently



On that logic, Frodo should have given the One Ring back to Sauron

I hate that idea. I encountered it many times in debating. Different situations require a different logic. Different circumstances influence what happens.

anyways, this is purely of the top of my head, but did bilbo ever know it was the one ring?

Eledhwen
11-26-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf
I hate that idea. I encountered it many times in debating. Different situations require a different logic. Different circumstances influence what happens.

anyways, this is purely of the top of my head, but did bilbo ever know it was the one ring? The logic matches. Kelonus argued that the stone should have been given back to Thorin because he wanted it so badly and it was his, which would have been Frodo's reason for giving the Ring back to Sauron.

And no, Bilbo didn't know it was the One Ring at that time; but I was talking about the Arkenstone, not the Ring.

Kelonus
11-26-2003, 12:42 PM
Good thing Sauron didn't get the ring though.

Eledhwen
11-26-2003, 03:15 PM
If it happened today, he'd sue and get it back.

omnipotent_elf
11-27-2003, 04:54 AM
was the Arkenstone of thrain a threat to all races of ME. NO. Therefore, they are unrelated matters.


If it happened today, he'd sue and get it back.

good reason for bilbo not to steal it from thorin :rolleyes: :rolleyes: