Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates?

[Arvedui]

Eru's gifts to humans. Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates in that creepy music thing towards the beginning of time.
Another topic from the Debate-Tournament.
I hope it is elligible, as I have just copied the topic as Yay wrote it.

[Celebthôl]

In some respects yes, they go to Ilúvatar, they meet The One, they are not bound to the world and are free of grief, pain and anguish :) they only suffer a little while as OAP's ;) but when they pass they leave as a legend in some cases (e.g Túrin and Aragorn) and are happy ever after. :)
However, Elves get to live in all the histories of Arda, and its hard to think of something cooler to say that "I was there 3000 years ago when Isildur cut the ring from Saurons hand", something a Man would never get to say. ;)

[Starflower]

I think it's better for the Men, they know that they live only for a short while, so they make the best of it, where as Elves knowing they live forever just go along for centuried without actually doing anything. Maybe the beauty of the Gift of Iluvatar is in that the so-called gift bit only comes apparent at the end, Men get to leave the world and its griefs behind , all the horrible things that happened to them will not follow them beyond the world. Whereas think of Galadriel, she bore the scars of the Kin-Slaying, the horrors of Helcaraxe and the fear of Morgoth with her for millenia, and even when she goes over the Sea, she will not forget.

[Nóm]

Eru's gifts to humans. Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates in that creepy music thing towards the beginning of time.

This question is not the one that was answered in the debate. I think Yay ment exactly what he said, not what some seem to assume he ment.

If he wants to know which was better: Dying of old age, or being able to shape one's fate beyond the music, then I will say I don't know.

Maybe after I've been dead awhile I can make the call. But surely from the point of view of being alive, being able to shape one's fate seem better than knowing one is aging and will die!

But even if we could not shape our fates beyond the music - would we know this? Would we feel that we are constantly being forced along? No. We would still have freewill... the higher powers would know what we would come to, we wouldn't, nor would they force it.

[Bethelarien]

I so did not enjoy this topic. Not fun at all.

I agree with Yay's statement/question. I think that dying and being released utterly from the Circles of the World and Time itself would be a much better alternative that just waiting in the Halls of Mandos until the End.

You think first hour Chemistry seems endless....:rolleyes:

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Bethelarien
I agree with Yay's statement/question. I think that dying and being released utterly from the Circles of the World and Time itself would be a much better alternative that just waiting in the Halls of Mandos until the End.


But they dont, they can be released from the Halls of Mandos, after they repent all bad things they did in life or somthing like that. ;)

[Elfarmari]

I could be wrong in this, but I think that Eru's original gift to Men was not to 'die of old age.' In my mind, I have seen the original Gift having been that of the Numenoreans: to be able to choose willingly to leave the world, not linger on until old age kills. Again, in my mind, this was only altered by Melkor. Both gifts seem to intertwine with each other; the Elves, being bound to the life of Arda are bound in its fate and can do less of their free will. Men, being 'guests', have much more freedom to literally change the future of Arda by themselves, in the same way that a new CEO today would have less trouble house-cleaning and making major changes in a trouble-ridden company.

I am not sure which gift would be better, because in Ea I cannot picture one without the other. (i.e. I'm feeling very indecisive and can't make up my mind:rolleyes: )

[Starflower]

I could be wrong in this, but I think that Eru's original gift to Men was not to 'die of old age.' In my mind, I have seen the original Gift having been that of the Numenoreans: to be able to choose willingly to leave the world, not linger on until old age kills. Again, in my mind, this was only altered by Melkor

Well the Gift of Iluvatar was extended to ALL Men, the ones in Numenor just got the slight modification of it, in that they were allocated a longer lifespan than lesser Menand they could give their life at will. The early Men I would imagine were pretty much the same as we today, lived their livesd and died of old age if they were lucky, in sickness or war if they weren't. The corruption of Melkor could be seen in Men's fear of death, that is the curse Melkor put on them, that they started to fear the unknown, whereas before they had gone willingly. This is what the Elves marveled at, when they first met the Edain, that they were willing to give up their life and leave this world, and noone knew where they end up after death.

[celebdraug]

his gift to men was not all that bad for the person dying because he wont be there to feel the sorrow but it also kind of bad because the people that loved you would feel the sorrow!

(i hope you understand what im trying to get at, im not excellent at debating)

[Lantarion]

I'd like to look at this philosophically:

The inherent desire of Mankind (in real life and in M-e ;)) is to understand their existence, and to know what happens after it. Their fate after death is unkown.

Elves do not have this inherent curiosity, but have great love for everything natural around them. They know their fate after they die (read: are killed) or after Arda ends, which means that they can concentrate more on the aesthetic nature of their world and not be bothered by philosophical questions.

So really neither way is 'better' when you look at it: each race is 'designed' to fit their overall fate, and will live as well as they can or will.

That's how I see it anyway. :)

[Helcaraxë]

Being a some-what warlike person (in a good way:D ), I think I would get bored being bound to the world until the second Music of the Ainur. It's like being trapped in a bottle. I suppose it might depend on what kind of bottle, but overall I expect the effect would be very similar. If anyone can figure out who said those last two sentences...well, be proud of yourself.;)

[Gildor]

The gift is that men are not forever caught up in the circles of the world, their spirits depart and go into the great unknown beyond it all...whereas the elder races are bound to Arda and will be reborn again and again as the world is renewed. Only the Eldar that have chosen mortality like Luthien and Arwen can depart the world forever.

The Gift of Iluvatar is basically freedom.

[The-Elf-Herself]

To answer this question, one also has to remember one other thing: men KNOW that when they die, they will have a part in the Second Music(okay, maybe most of them don't, but the point is they do-did, oh shoot, stupid tenses). *coughs* Henceforth, all references to beings of Middle Earth will be past-tense because it's easier for me.

Anyways: according to HoME, men will have a part in the Second Music-that's definite. However, elves have no real idea what's in store for them once Arda ends, because they are bound to it to deeply. Only Finrod had some sort of inkling, I believe, and even he wasn't sure. They have to trust in estel, blind hope, in Eru's plan for them.

Ideally, I suppose that you could consider both men and elves immortal. After all, while men die physically, their fea travel on beyond the reaches of Arda, so they're not truly dead in the complete and total sense; they've just moved on and they will continue on after the end of Arda. It's the fear of the unknown that makes men view this with dislike. Elves, however, can live millenia and never truly die in the physical sense, since they can be reborn. Yet they know nothing of their fate once Arda ends, so you can't truly call that a definite form of immortality.

I've messed up tenses again. Ah well. Even with all of this to consider, I cannot truly say which is 'better'-they both are simply as Eru made them(or Tolkien wrote them *shrugs* ) and work out evenly on both counts.

[Sarah]

Has anyone seen Bicentennial man?

Robin William's character could have lived forever and said "I was there 3000 years ago when that happend" But he wanted to die? Why? Everything around him was changing and everyone he loved was leaving. I'd prefer man's fate.

[Theoden_king]

Originally posted by Sarah
everyone he loved was leaving. I'd prefer man's fate.

This is why I would prefer the fate of Men. Some elves do mix with Men and become good friends with them, imagine if you have to witness one of your friends becoming old and dying while you remain young, maybe you would move on but it would be a very distressing life to live like that.

[aulendil]

To look at the issue of mans mortality from a varying viewpoint.. That of modern man.

The time of the histories is set prior to the raising of organised mono-deity religeons in the East (Judaism > Christianity > Islam). The men of these regions learn there true destiny to die and be at one with Iluvatar in "heaven" at around 3000BC (Note the fall of atlantis/akkalabeth is dated at around 10000BC, work out dates for the remainder of tolkiens histories from that yourselves.) clearly an "age" beyond the end of the war of the ring.

Taking Tolkiens own Catholicism into account (which I do not share) the whole issue of what happens to mortal man after there death runs concurrant in "real" and "imaginary" histories.

Thus put in context of Tolkiens beliefs, the fate of Man is clearly the better when compared to that of the Elves, doomed to degenerate in the circles of the world for eternity.

[Éomond]

What I'm wondering is, did Men really get the better deal or "gift" from Eru? I would think that the Elves would grow/get tired of Valinor after awhile, even if they did die, they'd just come back. And Valinor doesn't seem anywhere near the size of Beleriand and/or Middle-earth, so it would seem crowed, and nothing new to see (but maybe I'm wrong on size).
But, if I was with the Valar, I don't think I'd get tired of it all for awhile.