Was Ilúvatar sufficiently involved in Arda?

[Gil-Galad]

I would like to open Round 7(finally)!
I honoured to to host the debate between The Guild of Scholar's Hall and The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil!

I would like to ask the both teams to post the names of their debators.

[Ithrynluin]

Here's the debate question:

Was Iluvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?

Any feedback on the question is welcomed ASAP. If this topic does not suit you for some reason, a new one will be picked.

[Ancalagon]

Was Iluvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?
I must say, I am a little perplexed by the vagueness of the question. If this relates to the entire History of Arda, then I feel it is an immeasurable and impossible task, for both sides. If it relates to moments of 'devine intervention' then how do you quantify or qualify such interventions, if indeed they even exist? Even for those scholars who have debated Eru's influence in Arda previously, it has ever proved inconclusive.
I like the scope of the question, I guess I am just a little uncertain how it may be judged, for who among any of us is qualified to decide whether Eru was sufficiently involved or not?

Is every document produced by Tolkien fair game in this debate?

[Ithrynluin]

I pretty much left it vague on purpose, just to see which possibility each team would go for. Perhaps this was not a good thing?

Is every document produced by Tolkien fair game in this debate?

Of course. Isn't that always the case?

Anc, if you feel that this topic is too overwhelming and your team would not want to debate it, please say so. Another topic will be suggested then.

[Ancalagon]

Rather like a philosophical question, it is not that it is overwhelming, but simply difficult to quantify. I certainly can debate the question, just like any other, but my fear is that it would appear to be something from the same ilk as 'do Balrogs have wings?' and I wonder if any of us are truly qualified to answer it. However, as I said, I would be happy to give it a shot.

[Maedhros]

Was Ilúvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?
Ilúvatar was sufficiently involved in Arda. Why is that? It is because Ilúvatar is God and he can't be wrong. Simple.

As we all know, Ilúvatar delegated the ruling of Arda to the Valar. There are 3 concepts that involve Arda:
Arda Unmarred.
Arda Marred.
Arda Healed.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
But even the Elves had the notion that this would not be so: that the end of Men would somehow be bound up with the end of history, or as they called it 'Arda Marred' (Arda Sahta), and the achievement of 'Arda Healed' (Arda Envinyanta). (They do not seem to have been clear or precise - how should they be! - whether Arda Envinyanta was a permanent state of achievement, which could therefore only be enjoyed 'outside Time', as it were: surveying the Tale as an englobed whole; or a state of unmarred bliss within Time and in a 'place' that was in some sense a lineal and historical descent of our world or 'Arda Marred'. They seem often to have meant both. 'Arda Unmarred' did not actually exist, but remained in thought - Arda without Melkor, or rather without the effects of his becoming evil; but is the source from which all ideas of order and perfection are derived. 'Arda Healed' is thus both the completion of the 'Tale of Arda' which has taken up all the deeds of Melkor, but must according to the promise of Ilúvatar be seen to be good; and also a state of redress and bliss beyond the 'circles of the world'.)

Arda Unmarred is Arda without the evil influence of Melkor. It exists only in concept.
Arda Marred is the Arda that actually existed with the influence of Melkor.
Arda Healed is Arda Marred that was healed by the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar in the End of Days.

Arda was created as an habitation for the Children of Ilúvatar. The Ainur were the creators of Arda by the themes, and the Children were the inhabitants. Ilúvatar, by letting the Valar handle Melkor, made Arda a better place in the end. You see, Arda Healed, will be greater than Arda Unmarred.

An interesting thing is that the Valar (Manwë) had the resource of consulting with Eru, as Manwë did in the Númenórean revolt. Eru’s intervention was unwarranted because Manwë did his will.
From Ósanwe-kenta
Nay, Manwë was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always

We as readers may think that the Valar (Manwë) were foolish to free Melkor after his imprisonment in Mandos, but Manwë did the right thing. The greatness of Ilúvatar comes from the fact that he works through his creations. It will be ultimately the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar that will make Arda a better place in the end.

[Snaga]

A quick request from a judge to Maedhros: can give a fuller citation for that 2nd quote please. Thanks:)

[baragund]

To support my esteemed colleague Maedhros, I offer the references from the Ainulindale in the published Silmarillion that describe the greatest music ever will be made before Iluvatar by the combined choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days. That is when the "...themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

Then, of course, is the famous admonishment of Iluvatar to Melkor when he says "...no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

This supports the Scholar's position that Iluvatar intended Melkor to subject Arda to all of his trials and tribulations. And the reason for this is that Arda Healed will be a superior 'product' to Arda Unmarred.

I think a valid parallel can be drawn between the versions of Arda and human nature. Consider two hypothetical people who begin life equal in all aspects. The first person goes through life with absolutely zero conflicts, stresses, or antagonisms, a life of unmarred bliss. The second suffers all of the pain and suffering along with the joys typical of real life and, one way or another, works his way through life's issues like we all do. At the end of the day, who do you think will be the stronger, wiser and better rounded person? You can bet it will be the second, the one who fought his way through the hard knocks.

[Maedhros]

A quick request from a judge to Maedhros: can give a fuller citation for that 2nd quote please. Thanks

I think that this raises an interesting point. I can't control what the judges have read. Some may feel confortable or not with quotes from works they haven't read.
I will ask the judges that if they or my opponents can't prove that my quotes are bogus, that they be taken as true. If I am making them up, it will be easy to prove that.
I will not make fuller citations that I need to.

[Maedhros]

I had a little chat with Snaga before I posted the clarification. I'm ok with his concern, and we cleared up the situation.
It was meant as a general clarification.

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Ilúvatar was sufficiently involved in Arda. Why is that? It is because Ilúvatar is God and he can't be wrong. Simple.

That is just funny.
How can anyone debate against such a statement: "Ilúvatar is God. A God can't be wrong. Therefore, Ilúvatar was sufficiently involved in Arda."

And of course baragund throws in the inevitable quote:
no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined
Again, a statement and a quote that should shut all doors on any further discourse on the topic raised.
They probably hoped...

But! Those statements can only be valid if it was Ilúvatar himself that wrote the mythology. And that is not the fact. The mythology that we call The Silmarillion was written by JRR Tolkien, and put together by his son. Let me quote Prof. Tolkien to make it clear why I emphasize this point:
What really happens, is that the story-maker proves a succesful "sub-creator". He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is "true" : it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from the outside.
Might not sound like much, until he continues:
Every writer making a secondary world wishes in some measure to be a real maker, or hopes that he is drawing on reality: hopes that the peculiar quality of this secondary world (if not all the details) are derived from Reality, or are flowing into it.
Quotes taken from the Andrew Lang Lecture, delivered at St Andrews on 8 March 1939.

Therefore: God is only perfect because the Sub-creator (ie. Tolkien) writes the way he does, and because the Scholars believe that what is written is that Ilúvatar is flawless.

But he is not, and one of his major flaws, is his lack of involvement in Arda.
One part of this is because of his 'delegation of Authority' to the Valar.
From Morgoth's Ring: 'The Converse of Manwe and Eru': Eru answered: Have I not given to the Valar the rule of Arda, and power over all the substance thereof, to shape it at their will under My will?
When he did this, Ilúvatar trusted that the Valar would rule over Arda the exact way he wanted it to be run. But this did not happen:
Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it
Quote taken from the same piece of writing.

And Eru's absence from Arda caused other grieves as well. FromMorgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed; Notes on motives in the Silmarillion:
Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Ea, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more
So even Sauron believes that Ilúvatar doesn't care anymore. That does say a lot about the sufficiency of the involvement of Ilúvatar.

[Feanorian]

Therefore: God is only perfect because the Sub-creator (ie. Tolkien) writes the way he does, and because the Scholars believe that what is written is that Ilúvatar is flawless.

What then are we debating? Are we debating something that happened outside or inside of this secondary world? Obviously it being the latter. This point is invalid because we are not debating something outside of Arda even the debate question itself says "Was Iluvatar sufficently involved in Arda" or something to that effect. This point is invalid.

I believe you also contradict yourself here: Eru answered: Have I not given to the Valar the rule of Arda, and power over all the substance thereof, to shape it at their will under My will?

You do this by failing to provide context. Look at the lines above:
Eru Answered: Let the houseless be re-housed!
Manwe answered: How shall this be done?
Eru answered: Let the body that was destroyed be re-made. Or let the naked fea be re-born as a child

What then has Eru just done? He has involved himself with Arda once again. This point I also propose to be invalid.

[baragund]

Arvedui stakes a very lawyerly position in that one of the Scholar's positions, being the infallibility of Iluvatar, should somehow be considered void because of the point of view of the author of the stories. This is a dangerous position to take on two levels:

1. If statements from the texts are to be considered invalid because the author is JRRT, and not Iluvatar himself, what does this do to the fundamental manner in which all of the debates in this tournament have been conducted? Always, we state our positions and back them up with logical reasoning and, most importantly, passages from the texts to support our positions. Are our worthy opponents from Ost-in-Edhil suggesting that the texts are meaningless because JRRT wrote them and not Iluvatar? If that is the case then I have to wonder what we are doing here?? :confused:

2. The point of view of the author in and of itself can be subject to debate. The Silmarillion is the history of Middle Earth through the end of the First Age as recorded by the Elves. The events of the Ainulindale were recorded by the Eldalie as told to them by the Valar. Not unlike the manner in which The Bible and The Koran, The Book of Mormon, etc. were written.

Keep in mind this is a work of fiction (although I wonder if some folk in this forum believe otherwise:) ). I think Arvedui's position may be more applicable to writings of non-fiction.

Besides, I read through the quotes Arvedui provided three times, and I'm not really sure how one is to conclude that Tolkien did not intend Iluvatar to be the omipotent and omniscient God that he is. The quotes tell me simply how an author needs to create a subordinate world in his writing in order to be believable.

The other main thrust of our worthy opponent's opening post is that the Valar, as instruments of Iluvatar, was not involved in Arda. I would have to disagree and point out the following passages from the end of the Ainulindale the published Silmarillion:

Thus began the first battle of the Valar with Melkor for the dominion of Arda ... Yet it is told among the Eldar that the Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them... And yet their labor was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended, slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm. And thus the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars.

That sounds to me like some pretty extensive intervention on the part of the Valar! They kept after it and kept after it until the Children could come and they could inhabit Arda.

[Arvedui]

The question we are debating is:Was Iluvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?
It was not if Ilúvatar was involved in Arda.

Therefore I state that he was not, using the quotes given in the previous post to show that:
A) Ilúvatar handed over the responsibilities for running Arda to the Valar. The quote that Feanorian thinks is a contradiction, is no more than a quote from to actually prove once more what Maedhros stated in his opening statement:As we all know, Ilúvatar delegated the ruling of Arda to the Valar.
B) That the Valar was not sufficiently involved in Arda, as is said by Ilúvatar:though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier
C) That this caused Sauron to believe that Ilúvatar didn't care about Arda anymore:He (Sauron) probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Ea, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more
And we all know what came from that, didn't we?

Now that both sides obviously agree that Ilúvatar handed over the responsibility of day-to-day management of Arda to the Valar, then we must also have a look at what the Valar did. Also from Notes on motives in the Silmarillion:
The Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not destructive in purpose). The Past, once 'achieved', has become part of the 'Music in being'. Only Eru may or can alter the 'Music'. The last major effort, of this demiurgic kind, made by the Valar was the lifting up of the range of the Pelori to a great height. It is possible to view this as, if not an actually bad action, at least as a mistaken one.
Even their lastdemiurgic kind of action was at the best a mistaken one. Why?
Thus the 'Hiding of Valinor' came near to countering Morgoth's possessiveness by a rival possessiveness, setting up a private domain of light and bliss against one of darkness and domination: a palace and a pleasaunce (well-fenced) against a fortress and a dungeon.
While all this happened, where was Ilúvatar? Not sufficiently involved with Arda, thats for sure.

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by baragund
Keep in mind this is a work of fiction (although I wonder if some folk in this forum believe otherwise:) ). ]U]I think Arvedui's position may be more applicable to writings of non-fiction.[/U]
Well, you might think what you want, but I follow what the author himself was talking about.
The topic of the Andrew Lang Lecture was Fairy-stories...
If you look closer at the date given, you will also notice that this was given when Tolkien was busy writing The Lord of the Rings. The lecture is given some space in Humphrey Carpenter's Biography, and I quote from that:He made a good many points in the lecture, perhaps too many for an entirely cogent argument. But at the end he asserted in powerful terms that there is no higher function for man than the 'sub-creation' of a Secondary World such as he was already making in The Lord of the Rings, and he gave expression to his hope that in one sense this story and the whole of his related mythology might be found to be 'true'.
He hoped that they might be found to be 'true.'
Are our worthy opponents from Ost-in-Edhil suggesting that the texts are meaningless because JRRT wrote them and not Iluvatar?
I think there is quite a long way between asking questions about the flawlessness of Ilúvatar, and stating that the whole mass of texts are meaningless. And to think that this was written by the same person that thought some people on the forum might believe that Tolkien's works are not mere fiction... (see the opening quote)
If statements from the texts are to be considered invalid because the author is JRRT, and not Iluvatar himself, what does this do to the fundamental manner in which all of the debates in this tournament have been conducted?
Just about the same as entering the quote that you did in the beginning:
no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined

[Gothmog]

Was Ilúvatar sufficiently involved in Arda? Well let us look at something.

As Maedhros has already pointed out Ilúvatar delegated the ruling of Arda to the Valar. This shows that he was not as involved as he could have been but this is not what the debate is about. The question is " Was Ilúvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?" Or to put it another way "Was he as involved as he Should have been?" I am not going to look at the far past when Arda was being first formed. Nor even at the grave errors that Ilúvatar allowed the Valar to make in their dealings with Melkor and their miss-guided efforts of attempting to drag the Elves from Middle-earth before their time.

For now I am going to look at Men. Did Ilúvatar delegate the care of Men to the Valar? Not at all. If we look at the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" we find that the Valar did not send any word to Men or have anything to do with them before they entered Beleriand and became involved in the wars of that land between Morgoth and The Elves.

From Morgoth's Ring: The Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.Andreth looked up and her eyes darkened. 'The Valar?' she said. 'How should I know, or any Man? Your Valar do not trouble us either with care or with instruction. They sent no summons to us.' This is followed by a comment which seems to be all too true.'Has it never entered into your thought, Andreth, that out there in ages long past ye may have put yourselves out of their care, and beyond the reach of their help? Or even that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could govern? For ye were too great. Yea, I mean this, and do not only flatter your pride: too great. Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One. So then. The Valar had nothing to do with Men in the beginning. So who else could? Well even the wise Finrod thinks this to be the One, that is Ilúvatar.

Let us now look at "The 'Tale of Adanel'" which gives some insight as to the first years of Men in Arda.Some say the Disaster happened at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died. The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listened. The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.'
First Paragraph.
This "Voice" can only be Ilúvatar talking to his second born children who were not in the care of the Valar but under his direct surveillance. So he was involved in Arda directly at this time but was his involvement sufficient? I think not.

In a later paragraph we haveThen one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed,' he said. 'The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock. Ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye could have dwellings of ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I.' This is where Melkor or one of his servants come to seduce Men away from Eru.

And further onAll that he taught seemed good, for he had great knowledge. But ever more and more he would speak of the Dark. 'Greatest of all is the Dark,' he said, 'for It has no bounds. I came out of the Dark, but I am Its master. For I have made Light. I made the Sun and the Moon and the countless stars. I will protect you from the Dark, which else would devour you.'
Then we spoke of the Voice. But his face became terrible; for he was angry. 'Fools!' he said. 'That was the Voice of the Dark. It wishes to keep you from me; for It is hungry for you.'
A claim to be greater than Ilúvatar!

NextThen he went away, and we did not see him for a long time, and without his gifts we were poor. And there came a day when suddenly the Sun's light began to fail, until it was blotted out and a great shadow fell on the world; and all the beasts and birds were afraid. Then he came again, walking through the shadow like a bright fire.
We fell upon our faces. 'There are some among you who are still listening to the Voice of the Dark,' he said, 'and therefore It is drawing nearer. Choose now! Ye may have the Dark as Lord, or ye may have Me. But unless ye take Me for Lord and swear to serve Me, I shall depart and leave you; for I have other realms and dwelling places, and I do not need the Earth, nor you.'
Much was done by this power to show how great it was. Then demands were made.

And what was Eru's Actions about this?The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.' Then our terror of the Dark was increased; for we believed at the Voice was of the Darkness behind the stars. He had allowed Melkor to terrorise his children and did nothing to help them. He simply cursed them for believing what they had been shown.

Had Ilúvatar been sufficiently involved there is no doubt that he could have prepared Men better to deal with the lies of Melkor. All they had was a Voice that said little and a power that seemed to be able to do anything. Ilúvatar it would seem did not even give Men the opportunity to learn of their mistake and repent. No he just watched them take the wrong path and then turned his back on them and cursed them.

This cannot be put down to the Valar making mistakes in trying to follow Ilúvatar's will. It was Ilúvatar not doing enough for the Children he had kept to himself away from the care of the Valar.

[baragund]

I think there is general agreement that the Children of Iluvatar had their share of suffering and evil befall them. However, as we debate whether or not Iluvatar was sufficiently involved in Arda, we need to look at whether this suffering at the hands of Melkor was actually intentional, a necessary evil imposed by Iluvatar on the Children in order for them to mature and realize their full potential.

If Iluvatar wanted to spare his Children all evil, pain and suffering, why did he create Melkor in the first place? Wouldn't it have been so much easier if Melkor never existed and the Children could just dwell in bliss in Arda Unmarred? Well yes, but it would be a mindless existence, with no challenge and nothing to push the Children to improve their lot and, hence, become stronger and wiser for it. Melkor, and the evil that he embodied, gave that 'trial by fire' that was needed to inspire the great accomplishments of the legendarium.

The history of ME is scattered with instances in which the Valar or Iluvatar himself intervene on behalf of the Children. (The reference I gave earlier from the end of the Ainulindale is the earliest and most extensive.) As I reviewed these major events, I noticed a pattern that I think is frequently overlooked. The pattern is that Evil (or Melkor's Shadow, the Darkness, etc.) is never truly vanquished. Instead, the interventions restore a degree of equilibrium that was in danger of being irreparably thrown out of whack by overpowering evil.

Consider the following from Myths Transformed: Morgoth’s Ring:

quote:
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Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come…
… The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind.
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As the ages wore on, and the Children grew in wisdom, the degree of intervention declined, to the point of coaching where the Children are taught to help themselves.

The last major act of direct intervention, done by Iluvatar himself, was the remaking of the world resulting in the destruction of Numenor as described in the Akallabeth. Given that evil will "constantly arise", Iluvatar had no choice but to remove the Undying Lands, which was nothing more to the societies of Men than an attractive nuisance.

After this cataclysmic event, the interventions were much more subtle. This would be the dispatching of the Istari. The Children had developed in wisdom to a point where direct intervention would no longer be productive. Again, the idea is helping the Children help themselves. As described in the following passage from "The Istari" from UT:

For with the consent of Eru, they (the Valar) sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, ... And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in form of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and undersanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavor to dominate and corrupt.

Note, in particular, the passage that describes the earlier interventions of the Valar "to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed" as "errors of old". This seems to support a more hands off approach by the Valar and to let the Children sort through things for themselves.

[Maedhros]

Posted by OiE
How can anyone debate against such a statement: "Ilúvatar is God. A God can't be wrong. Therefore, Ilúvatar was sufficiently involved in Arda."
You can’t really.

Posted by OiE
Therefore: God is only perfect because the Sub-creator (ie. Tolkien) writes the way he does, and because the Scholars believe that what is written is that Ilúvatar is flawless.
This is funny. In his letters, Tolkien states that Ilúvatar is god. A definition of god is:
A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe
And Tolkien states:
Letters 181
There is, of course, a mythological structure behind this story. It was actually written first, and may now perhaps be in part published. It is, I should say, a 'monotheistic but "sub-creational" mythology'. There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers.
Of course the professor was awarded a First Class Honours degree in English Language and Literature, and worked in the project of the New English Dictionary in 1919.
If JRRT uses the word God, then he means it. If my friends of OiE state that Ilúvatar made a mistake, then it means that they think that JRRT does not know how to use correctly the word God. Hmmmm. I wonder who to believe, JRRT or OiE. I’ll go with JRRT in this one.

posted by OiE
When he did this, Ilúvatar trusted that the Valar would rule over Arda the exact way he wanted it to be run.
This is a common and understandable mistake. The Valar are not perfect. They could never be. Only Eru is.

posted by OiE
So even Sauron believes that Ilúvatar doesn't care anymore. That does say a lot about the sufficiency of the involvement of Ilúvatar.
Hehe. Sauron had fallen like Morgoth. Sauron too believed that he could rule ME, but did that happen? Nooperz.

posted by OiE
That the Valar was not sufficiently involved in Arda, as is said by Ilúvatar
This is of course not true. JRRT wrote that the Valar didn’t act as fast as they should have, not that they were not sufficiently involved.
Earlier: Near the beginning of a given series, period of time, or course of events.
Involve: To engage as a participant; embroil.
Different words different meanings.

posted by OiE
While all this happened, where was Ilúvatar? Not sufficiently involved with Arda, thats for sure.
Hehe. He is there, just not obvious to the untrained eye. As it will be explained later.

posted by OiE
Well, you might think what you want, but I follow what the author himself was talking about.
You might follow what he was talking, but obviously not the correct meaning of his words.

posted by OiE
Did Ilúvatar delegate the care of Men to the Valar? Not at all. If we look at the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" we find that the Valar did not send any word to Men or have anything to do with them before they entered Beleriand and became involved in the wars of that land between Morgoth and The Elves.
This is a no no. The Athrabeth is a dialogue between Finrod and Andreth. What Andreth told Finrod is a tradition that Men had. This dialogue took place circa 409 F.A. Men awoke aprox. In the year 1 of the F.A. This has been a tradition in the generations with them. It cannot be taken as a fact.

posted by OiE
Let us now look at "The 'Tale of Adanel'" which gives some insight as to the first years of Men in Arda.
This "Voice" can only be Ilúvatar talking to his second born children who were not in the care of the Valar but under his direct surveillance. So he was involved in Arda directly at this time but was his involvement sufficient? I think not.
This cannot be taken as a fact. Some of the things that Andreth said, like that Men thought at the beginning that their hröa was the same as elves was an error. This is a legend of mannish origin which cannot be taken very seriously.

posted by OiE
Had Ilúvatar been sufficiently involved there is no doubt that he could have prepared Men better to deal with the lies of Melkor. All they had was a Voice that said little and a power that seemed to be able to do anything. Ilúvatar it would seem did not even give Men the opportunity to learn of their mistake and repent. No he just watched them take the wrong path and then turned his back on them and cursed them.
What I find interesting is the fact that my friends of OiE use the part about the voice as belonging to Ilúvatar as a fact. Of all that Andreth said, this is true to them, but what about this part:
So I learn from Adanel. They say plainly that Men are not by nature short-lived, but have become so through the malice of the Lord of the Darkness whom they do not name. 'Much could be said concerning this belief (be it a true guess or no). But first I would ask: how do ye say that this has come about? By the malice of Melkor I guessed, and you have not denied it. But I see now that you do not speak of the diminishment that all in Arda Marred suffer; but of some special stroke of enmity against your people, against Men as Men. Is that so?'
'It is indeed,' said Andreth.

Is this true? Of course not. Morgoth could not change the fate of Men, only Ilúvatar could. If that part of their beliefs is wrong, why couldn’t that other part about the voice be wrong too? Do OiE picks the part of the tale that agrees with them as true and the other not?

[Maedhros]

Arda Unmarred and Arda Healed
First lets take a look at The Published Silmarillion
'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
Yes, even Melkor is an instrument of Ilúvatar in the greatness of Arda.

And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'
Then Ulmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain.
This is a little example of it.

The way that things turned out had a purpose. It was the plan of Ilúvatar:
From Morgoth’s Ring: Myths Transformed
Even so, and on the grounds of the stories as received, it is possible to view the matter otherwise. The closing of Valinor against the rebel Noldor (who left it voluntarily and after warning) was in itself just. But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
The More Melkor was thought of working for himself, he was in reality working for the greatness of Arda.

Note the words of JRRT regarding the actions of the Valar:
From Vinyar Tengwar: Ósanwe-kenta
Manwe had the authority to rule and to order the world, so far as he could, for the well-being of the Eruhíni; but if Melkor would repent and return to the allegiance of Eru, he must be given his freedom again. He could not be enslaved, or denied his part. The office of the Elder King was to retain all his subjects in the allegiance of Eru, or to bring them back to it, and in that allegiance to leave them free.
Therefore not until the last, and not then except by the express command of Eru and by His power, was Melkor thrown utterly down and deprived for ever of all power to do or to undo.
Manwë was not perfect, he never was, but he acted under the guidance of Eru. The logical question then is: Why did the Valar not intervened in ME to save Men with the return of Melkor? The answer is very simple. If they had gone there to do that, the ensuing battle between the Valar and Melkor would have destroy them. Consider the War of Wrath. Almost of all Beleriand was destroyed, and in that time, the power of Melkor was dispersed, now imagine if they had fought and Melkor had retained more of his inherent power, how much of Arda would have been destroyed and would the race of Men have survived such battle? Not really. The way that history unfolded was that the Ñoldor in ME instructed some elements of Mankind for the time when the Elves would fade.

From Morgoth’s Ring: Myths Transformed
And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.


This is a belief that the Elves had about the ultimate fate of Men:
From Morgoth’s Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth
'This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!
'For that Arda Healed shall not be Arda Unmarred, but a third thing and a greater
Which agrees with what it is said in The Published Silmarillion
Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

God’s plan was made. He only intervened when it was necessary. To remove Melkor from the World and to remove Númenórë.
There are also almost unnoticed interventions of Ilúvatar, but I will mention that in another post.
Isn't it ironic that it was Men who were supposedly abandon to Melkor, where in the end the agents of the creation of a better Arda. The supposed instruments of Melkor turn out to be the instruments of Ilúvatar in the creation of something greater that no one had imagined.

[Gothmog]

baragund

It is not whether this suffering was necessary in the way you say. We must look at whether Ilúvatar did enough to prepare his children for the trials and torments that would lead to them realising their full potential. This I believe he did not do.

First of all you are assuming that Ilúvatar Created Melkor for the purpose of being evil! This is something that has not been proven. The reason that he created Melkor in the first place was the same as for the rest of the Ainur. He did so for reasons not disclosed in the legendarium although it is inferred that they were created for the Great Music in which the Ainur helped in the creation of Arda.

I agree that the "Trial By Fire" was good for the children. However, the Elves had at least some schooling to help them. The Noldor due to living in Aman and learning from the Valar and the Moriquendi because the Noldor brought that teaching back to Middle-earth. In the case of Men this is not so. They had a short time where "The Voice" spoke to them and it told them to learn for themselves. For the most part this was good advice to allow Men to learn about the World itself. However, this fell far short of what was needed when it came to learning about the "Master of Lies" Melkor.

I doubt that the pattern you refer to is frequently overlooked. It has been stated quite clearly that this is so. However, the interventions of the Valar have no place in this debate. Please show Ilúvatar's intervention in the passage you cited. The question under scrutiny is

"Was Ilúvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?"


You speak of the later ages where the degree of intervention declined. In Ilúvatar's case where does it decline from? Where was this coaching or even the most Basic teaching when it would do the most good. When Men were in their collective infancy!!!
It was nowhere to be found.


As for the Last Major Act of Direct Intervention, done by Ilúvatar himself. This seems to be the ONLY act of direct intervention done by Ilúvatar himself, since he did not do much to prepare Men when they were in his SOLE charge!

The Interventions following the changing of Arda and the removal of Aman from the circles of the World were by the Valar with the Consent of Ilúvatar. Not much done by Ilúvatar himself. (other than an up-grade on Gandalf of course)

As for the quote. Note, in particular the question of this debate concerns the actions or lack thereof of Ilúvatar not the Valar.

Let us look back a little further.
But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; From the Silmarillion: Chapter 1: Of the Beginning of Days.

How could it otherwise. Ilúvatar did not allow them the choice of working in harmony. By withholding teaching and then turning his back upon Men they had no other path to follow. Having been deceived by that most powerful of darks creatures, Melkor, Ilúvatar did not even allow for a path back to himself.

The Mountains of the Pelori in Aman were simply shadows of a barrier beside this total block imposed by Ilúvatar on Men. Indeed, the mistakes of the Valar are more understandable when considered against this. How could they do other than to be lesser examples of Ilúvatar himself.
Posted by Maedhros
What I find interesting is the fact that my friends of OiE use the part about the voice as belonging to Ilúvatar as a fact. Of all that Andreth said, this is true to them, but what about this part:

So I learn from Adanel. They say plainly that Men are not by nature short-lived, but have become so through the malice of the Lord of the Darkness whom they do not name. 'Much could be said concerning this belief (be it a true guess or no). But first I would ask: how do ye say that this has come about? By the malice of Melkor I guessed, and you have not denied it. But I see now that you do not speak of the diminishment that all in Arda Marred suffer; but of some special stroke of enmity against your people, against Men as Men. Is that so?'
'It is indeed,' said Andreth.

Is this true? Of course not. Morgoth could not change the fate of Men, only Ilúvatar could. If that part of their beliefs is wrong, why couldn’t that other part about the voice be wrong too? Do OiE picks the part of the tale that agrees with them as true and the other not? Let us have another look at the quote provided by the esteemed Maedhros.So I learn from Adanel. They say plainly that Men are not by nature short-lived, but have become so through the malice of the Lord of the Darkness whom they do not name. 'Much could be said concerning this belief (be it a true guess or no). But first I would ask: how do ye say that this has come about? By the malice of Melkor I guessed, and you have not denied it. But I see now that you do not speak of the diminishment that all in Arda Marred suffer; but of some special stroke of enmity against your people, against Men as Men. Is that so?' Well by the Malice of Melkor Men were deceived and seduced away from Ilúvatar, this resulted in Ilúvatar shortening the span of life for Men. So it was by the Malice of Melkor that the lives of Men were shortened even though Melkor could not do this directly himself. So I will accept the truth contained in the quote used and until there is evidence to disprove the earlier quotes I accept also the truth of them.

[Maedhros]

A closer look at the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

The Athrabeth is a conversation between Finrod Felagund and Andreth, the Wise. Their conversation basically was about the notion that Men had regarding their coming into the World. In it a discussion began about the nature of both Elves and Men. Men believed that they were at first immortal as the Eldar were and that they were changed by the malice of Melkor. But as we know, that is not possible, Melkor had not the power to alter the fate of the Children of Ilúvatar.

posted by OiE
Well by the Malice of Melkor Men were deceived and seduced away from Ilúvatar, this resulted in Ilúvatar shortening the span of life for Men. So it was by the Malice of Melkor that the lives of Men were shortened even though Melkor could not do this directly himself. So I will accept the truth contained in the quote used and until there is evidence to disprove the earlier quotes I accept also the truth of them.
This is interesting but not true. In the Tale of Adanel, it is stated that the voice of the One, is the one that shortens the life of Men, but remember that the Tale is only a tradition that had approximately 400 years of existence and it can’t be taken as fact. But we might use Finrod’s word concerning the Marring of Arda and the effects on the hröa of the Children.
From Morgoth’s Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth
'That I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'that your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda was tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hröar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only maybe Aman before he came there. For know, it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years.
'And likewise with the hröar of Men, they are weaker than they should be. Thus it comes to pass that here in the West, to which of old his power scarcely extended, they have more health, as you say.'

Interesting aspect about the Tale and opportunities
My friends of OiE complain that Ilúvatar had not actually been involved in the coming of Men and that the Valar had abandoned them. That is of course not true.
Tale of Adanel
Some say the Disaster happened at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died. The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listened. The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.'

In the tradition of Men, this voice is Ilúvatar and notice that it was the first message that Men had when they reached ME. Ilúvatar had communicated with them.
In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'
But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice.
Notice that while they had a communication with Ilúvatar, they decided to do as they would. Free will.
Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed,' he said. 'The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock. Ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye could have dwellings of ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I.'

Then this is Melkor, and he tried to deceive Men:
We fell upon our faces. 'There are some among you who are still listening to the Voice of the Dark,' he said, 'and therefore It is drawing nearer. Choose now! Ye may have the Dark as Lord, or ye may have Me. But unless ye take Me for Lord and swear to serve Me, I shall depart and leave you; for I have other realms and dwelling places, and I do not need the Earth, nor you.'
Then in fear we spoke as he commanded, saying: 'Thou art the Lord; Thee only we will serve. The Voice we abjure and will not hearken to it again.'

But ultimately, Men chose to disregard The Voice (Eru) in favor of Melkor. Even in this Tale, Ilúvatar was involved with Men, he taught them, but they chose Melkor instead. How would my friends of OiE would have it then? Should Eru force Men against their will then? I think not. It is noteworthy that some Men fled away from the influence of Melkor to the west and even aided the Valar in the War of Wrath.

Estel
Even though Men had no knowledge of the future, they had hope for the future, that healing could be found.
'It cannot be unsaid,' answered Andreth, 'if you would understand the despair in which we walk. Or in which most Men walk. Among the Atani, as you call us, or the Seekers as we say: those who left the lands of despair and the Men of darkness and journeyed west in vain hope: it is believed that healing may yet be found, or that there is some way of escape. But is this indeed Estel? Is it not Amdir rather; but without reason: mere flight in a dream from what waking they know: that there is no escape from darkness and death?'

Where does that hope comes from then?
'Ask me not yet,' he answered. 'For it is still to me but strange news that comes from afar. No such hope was ever spoken to the Quendi. To you only it was sent. And yet through you we may hear it and lift up our hearts.' He paused a while, and then looking gravely at Andreth he said: 'Yes, Wise-woman, maybe it was ordained that we Quendi, and ye Atani, ere the world grows old, should meet and bring news one to another, and so we should learn of the Hope from you
Is it not interesting that while Men had a far shorter life than Elves, it would be Men that would teach Hope to Elves.

The supposed absence of the Valar concerning Men
While reading the Athrabeth, one can gain important motifs regarding the wisdom of the Valar. If you take as true, (as my friends of OiE) the Tale of Adanel, then the Valar had no reason to interfere with them because Eru was already involved with Men since the very beginning.
There is also an important aspect about the nature of the Valar and Men. The Valar are beings that are tied to Arda and bound to remain in it to the end. Men, as we know, have a faith entirely different from them.
'Has it never entered into your thought, Andreth, that out there in ages long past ye may have put yourselves out of their care, and beyond the reach of their help? Or even that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could govern? For ye were too great. Yea, I mean this, and do not only flatter your pride: too great. Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One.
So you see, the supposed absence of the Valar is non existent. Simple.

Is it not ironic that Men, the ones who according to OiE were abandoned by Eru, would be in the end, the instrument of the final defeat of Melkor and in the making of Arda Healed a thing greater than Arda Unmarred.
Then this must surely follow: the fëa when it departs must take with it the hröa. And what can this mean unless it be that the fëa shall have the power to uplift the hröa, as its eternal spouse and companion, into an endurance everlasting beyond Eä, and beyond Time? Thus would Arda, or part thereof, be healed not only of the taint of Melkor, but released even from the limits that were set for it in the "Vision of Eru" of which the Valar speak.

The supposed victim becomes the savior in the end.

I think that this passage from The Book of Lost Tales I: The Music of the Ainur, explains it beautifully:
Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder: -- for lo! Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Ilúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest."

[Ancalagon]

I sometimes wonder if I would be just as well served to post entire chapters of Tolkiens work as a post, rather than actually deliver a post with a touch of my own thoughts on the matter. However, on this occassion I shall post my thoughts and possibly throw in an odd quote in support.

My dear colleagues of Ost-in-Edhil have already put forth some wonderful posts in relation to this vexing question. "Why is such a vexing question," I hear you cry! Well, for one it would seem quite difficult to quantify such an arguement considering there is scant evidence that Ilúvatar chose to interfere in the affairs of Arda, other than a few references which have been pointed out.

Yet, the facts speak for themselves, that Ilúvatar distanced himself from the mechanics of Arda, and allowed his own vice-regents and children to govern their own affairs. Self-determination, self-governance and of course the classic 'free-will.' Ilúvatar from the outset had no intention of intervening in the ordering of the affairs of Arda. His influence can be seen in all things in Arda, because all originates with him, yet this does not satisfy a suitable response to the question of whether he was sufficiently involved in Arda by his actions, nor specifically whether he could have done more.

Already my esteemed colleagues have made reference to Men; Children wandering aimlessly in the dark. Even the voice in the wilderness does little to guide them, irrespective of the fact that Melkor encircles Ilúvatar's own secondborn, as a wolf encircles his prey. Consider for a moment, your own child, new to this world and ignorant of the evil that lurks within it. Do you allow them to grow up without your guidance, your teaching, your care and support? Do you send them out unwittingly and unprepared into a world fraught with traps and pitfalls without first seeking to prepare them?In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'
But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice.
Is this a suitable way to raise your own while the wolf waits at the door? For even when Melkor comes among them, Ilúvatar offers no advice, no guidance, no warning of their peril. They are eager to learn and he shows them nothing. They seek to understand the world around them yet know nothing of what dangers lie in wait. Maedhros has cunningly produced his statement of evidence that is supposed to support the theory that Ilúvatar's involvement in the coming of Man was more than mere lip service. Yet, all I see in the quotes posted are evidence that Men were left unguarded and unsupported. Melkor is ever accused by many of deciept and lies, yet ever in the web of Melkors words lie seeds of truth. Surely this is the secret of his success! Consider this quote from The Athrabeth.
But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice. Who's Children are they that seek and yearn, thirst for knowledge to understand and grow? Who gave rise to the thoughts of Man? These thoughts arise before Melkor appears, these are the Children of Eru himself and yet he neglected them when they were most vulnerable. Is there not truth then in the words of Melkor?Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed,' he said. 'The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock. Ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye could have dwellings of ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I.' Surely he fathomed the minds of Men and saw the neglect, else why would he use such cunning words to tempt them in such a manner?
Then again, did Melkor not also know that Ilúvatar gifted Man with 'free-will?' Was this not a tool with which he was able to manipulate and devise his most heinous acts upon such unsuspecting prey? Melkor exploited Ilúvatar's inaction in Arda to devastating effect for much longer than was ever necessary.

[Gothmog]

by Maedhros
In the Tale of Adanel, it is stated that the voice of the One, is the one that shortens the life of Men, but remember that the Tale is only a tradition that had approximately 400 years of existence and it can't be taken as fact. But we might use Finrod's word concerning the Marring of Arda and the effects on the hröa of the Children. Yes it is true that this tale is only a tradition. It is also true that it is a tradition of mere Men and of course the Histories of the Elves would have greater weight. However, where are the "Histories of the Elves" that we can refer to? The words of JRR Tolkien from Myths Transformed
It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to their measure of understanding). But we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon actors, such as Feanor) handed on by Men in Numenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back from the first association of the Dunedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas So if we cannot trust the traditions of Men we are left with the problem that nothing can then be trusted as all of it comes to us tainted by the stain of being of "Mannish Tradition". Therefore all is of equal relevance.My friends of OiE complain that Ilúvatar had not actually been involved in the coming of Men and that the Valar had abandoned them. That is of course not true. Where is the complaint that Ilúvatar had not actually been involved in the coming of Men? Ilúvatar created Men, how could he not be involved in their coming???

And as for the Valar not having anything to do with Men, this is not a complaint. It is a statement of fact. Nothing more, nothing less. The Valar did not Abandon Men. They had nothing to do with Men because Men were the province Solely of Ilúvatar himself.

OiE maintain not " that Ilúvatar had not actually been involved in the coming of Men" but that He did less than he should have in respect of Men. Something totally different to the claim of my friend from the Scholars.
Should Eru force Men against their will then? I think not. Nor do I think that Ilúvatar should have forced Men against their will. But this was not needed. Let us look again at the tale of AdanelThen he went away, and we did not see him for a long time, and without his gifts we were poor. And there came a day when suddenly the Sun's light began to fail, until it was blotted out and a great shadow fell on the world; and all the beasts and birds were afraid. Then he came again, walking through the shadow like a bright fire.
We fell upon our faces. 'There are some among you who are still listening to the Voice of the Dark,' he said, 'and therefore It is drawing nearer. Choose now! Ye may have the Dark as Lord, or ye may have Me. But unless ye take Me for Lord and swear to serve Me, I shall depart and leave you; for I have other realms and dwelling places, and I do not need the Earth, nor you.'
This shows that Ilúvatar allowed Melkor to prove to Men that he was indeed Master. Ilúvatar could have, and should have, prevented the blotting out of the Sun. Then Melkor would have at the least have had to work much harder and Men would not have had what seems to be proof that Melkor was indeed the greater.There is also an important aspect about the nature of the Valar and Men. The Valar are beings that are tied to Arda and bound to remain in it to the end. Men, as we know, have a faith entirely different from them. I wonder why there is this need from the Scholars to constantly include the Valar and their actions in this debate? The Valar did their work. How well or how badly is a different question. We are debating about Ilúvatar's involvement. Arvedui only referred to the Valar to show that Ilúvatar had delegated his authority to them.So you see, the supposed absence of the Valar is non existent. Simple. And so obvious I still wonder at it's constant inclusion by the scholars.Is it not ironic that Men, the ones who according to OiE were abandoned by Eru, would be in the end, the instrument of the final defeat of Melkor and in the making of Arda Healed a thing greater than Arda Unmarred. And would not these "instruments" not have been more effective had it not been "Proven" to them that Melkor was greater than Ilúvatar? Melkor Blotted out the Sun and darkened Arda, how then could Men see other than Melkor as the greatest. Doubt as to the power of Melkor did not come to Man until they entered Beleriand and saw the Elves defying Melkor with limited success. Had Melkor been prevented from showing himself to be so powerful would not the "Instruments of the creation of Arda Healed" not have been even better when they joined with the Eldar?

Had Ilúvatar been only a little more involved in Arda personally then I say that Men would have had even longer to exercise their freedom of choice within the confines and limits of Arda and been even better instruments for Arda Healed.

[baragund]

For my last post in this really interesting discussion, I’d like to address the comments by The Lord of the Balrogs in his last post of Sept. 30 and Anc's post from earlier this evening. In the process, I'll expand on my mad ramblings of Sept. 29 and provide some closing remarks.

Gothmog subtly rephrases the question at hand by asking if Iluvatar “…did enough to prepare his children for the trials and torments that would lead to them realizing their full potential.” This is a slight but important change in focus from the debate question, which is “Was Iluvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?” This change in focus is important because of course Iluvatar could certainly have done more to prepare or protect his children just as parents in Real Life could always do more to prepare their children for life and shelter them from peril. However, just as parents can cross a line and become overprotective and provide such extensive guidance that the children cannot think and act on their own, so too would Iluvatar run the risk of his Children being over dependent on him and, hence, stunting their potential.

This ‘hands off’ approach applies particularly well to Men. There is a reason why The Voice did not provide a whole lot of detailed guidance to the Fathers of Men, and why they were told they had to learn things on their own. It was because of their Free Will! Using again the analogy of Real Life children, they frequently refuse to listen to their parents and the best lessons are the ones they learn themselves… the hard way. My father would frequently start a serious conversation with me when I was a teenager with “I wish I could put my old head on your young shoulders”, and like many typical teenagers, my eyes would just glaze over and I would tune him out. Boy! If I took to heart at the time one quarter of the wisdom being imparted to me, I would be sooo much better off today! I think there was a lot of the same thing going on with the Fathers of Men. Iluvatar understood he just had to let Men learn the hard lessons on their own.

Regarding Melkor, Gothmog makes a fascinating assertion that it is not a given that Iluvatar created Melkor for the purpose of being evil. This begs the question that if that was not Iluvatar’s intent, was Melkor some kind of monstrous mistake on the part of Iluvatar, who is supposed to be infallible? Talk about the baker messing up his first batch of cookies! I’m sorry to keep dragging out this quote from the Ainulindale but Iluvatar’s admonishment to Melkor that I referred to in my post of Sept. 25 addresses this issue quite well. Iluvatar basically tells Melkor that whatever he does, it is only a part of Iluvatar’s themes, and any of Melkor’s actions are simply Iluvatar’s “…instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.” It seems to me that Iluvatar knew what he was doing when he created Melkor.

Now let’s talk about the degree of direct action made by Iluvatar himself and the involvement of the Valar that we Scholars so stubbornly keep returning to. The number of times Iluvatar interceded himself is really beside the point. Iluvatar operated on an ‘advise and consent’ basis and he allowed the offspring of his thought, the Valar, to run Arda under his guidance. Another analogy that strikes me as well suited for this situation is Iluvatar being like the CEO of a large corporation and the Valar are his staff. Now I think most of you taking part in this conversation have experience in the world of work, jobs, bosses, the 9-5 thing. How many of you liked working for a boss who was a micro-manager, the type of control freak who wouldn’t let you blow your nose without his/her review and approval? Or doing all of the work himself, leaving you feeling worthless? I’ve had one and it ain’t fun! It’s stifling and miserable, and it leaves you not caring about the quality of your work because you know the boss will redo it anyway no matter how much effort you put into it. The best kind of CEO is the one who truly delegates authority, and allows his staff to make mistakes but learn from them. He steps in directly only when the issue is something simply beyond the capabilities of his staff. So it was when Iluvatar had to remake Arda and separate it from Aman because of the uppity Numenoreans. The ‘advise and consent’ approach (otherwise considered to be the councils Manwe would take with Iluvatar) is a proven management technique.

In closing, I’d like to review the ‘Big Picture’ that is being offered by the two sides of this discussion. The Scholars are basically saying that the hands-off approach by Iluvatar was intentional and necessary in order for the Children to reach their full potential and properly implement the transformation from Arda Marred to Arda Healed, being a superior product compared to Arda Unmarred. It is a hard road the Children had to take but a necessary one so "...the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright...".

Our friends from Ost-in-Edhil give a kind of “would’ve, should’ve, could’ve” argument, describing the lack of direct involvement by Iluvatar, dismissing his advisory role to the Valar and how he could have reduced the degree of trials and torments of the Children in Arda Marred. But would this really have facilitated the transformation from Arda Marred to Arda Healed? I’m not sure. I think the final product would be more like Arda Unmarred.


I'm beat. I'm going to bed now.

[Maedhros]

posted by OiE
Consider for a moment, your own child, new to this world and ignorant of the evil that lurks within it. Do you allow them to grow up without your guidance, your teaching, your care and support? Do you send them out unwittingly and unprepared into a world fraught with traps and pitfalls without first seeking to prepare them?

This is of course not true in the case of Men. I think that my friends of OiE share the same views as the common reader of the Silmarillion. It would seem at first that Men were treated unfairly, but that is not so. Consider this:
Men are not bound to Arda as the Valar and Elves are. They have the power to shape their own destiny.
From The Published Silmarillion
' Therefore to willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

Men had the power to shape their life, regardless of the powers of the World, something that neither the Valar nor the Elves had.
posted by OiE
For even when Melkor comes among them, Ilúvatar offers no advice, no guidance, no warning of their peril. They are eager to learn and he shows them nothing. They seek to understand the world around them yet know nothing of what dangers lie in wait.
This is not true of course. Just look at the quote provided by OiE:
In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'
But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds.
Don’t you see, Men had that innate ability to do that. The things that they wished to make awoke in their own minds. Eru knew that Men had to find the answers from their questions by themselves because he had given them that ability.
From Morgoth’s Ring: Athrabeth Finrod An Andreth
'Nay, tell me!' said Finrod. 'For if you do not know, how can we? But do you know that the Eldar say of Men that they look at no thing for itself; that if they study it, it is to discover something else; that if they love it, it is only (so it seems) because it reminds them of some other dearer thing? Yet with what is this comparison? Where are these other things?
'We are both, Elves and Men, in Arda and of Arda; and such knowledge as Men have is derived from Arda (or so it would appear). Whence then comes this memory that ye have with you, even before ye begin to learn?

posted by OiE
Who's Children are they that seek and yearn, thirst for knowledge to understand and grow? Who gave rise to the thoughts of Man? These thoughts arise before Melkor appears, these are the Children of Eru himself and yet he neglected them when they were most vulnerable. Is there not truth then in the words of Melkor?
Why did Eru neglected them? Because he didn’t give them the easy way? Have you ever wonder what would have happened if he did? Men would be unable to discover things, to seek the new, he would have hinder his gift to them. He would have killed their creativity and desire to learn and experience. Consider that you had a child who has a homework. You can either give him the answers, or you can allow your child to grow by giving him the tools that he needs to make the homework for himself. If you give the answers to your child, then he will be forever dependent upon you, and he will never cease to be a child. Do you really think that is what Ilúvatar intended for Men, to be forever children? Of course not.

posted by OiE
Surely he fathomed the minds of Men and saw the neglect, else why would he use such cunning words to tempt them in such a manner?
Then again, did Melkor not also know that Ilúvatar gifted Man with 'free-will?' Was this not a tool with which he was able to manipulate and devise his most heinous acts upon such unsuspecting prey? Melkor exploited Ilúvatar's inaction in Arda to devastating effect for much longer than was ever necessary.
Ilúvatar had given free will to all, not just Men. Men had free will. They knew that the voice of the One never threatened them or made them choose. They chose unwisely, but some of them left the service of Melkor and wandered away to the west.
It is interesting the much longer than was ever necessary remark. How does our friends from OiE know that? Should the Valar had kept Melkor imprisoned in Mandos forever then? Would that have been better for Arda in the End? No.
From Vinyar Tengwar: Ósanwe-kenta
Who then can say with assurance that if Melkor had been held in bond less evil would have followed? Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. Yet some ruinous outburst of his despair is not the worst that might have befallen. The release was according to the promise of Manwe. If Manwe had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force. Would we then have the sorrows that indeed befell; or would we have the Elder King lose his honour, and so pass, maybe, to a world rent between two proud lords striving for the throne? Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough.


posted by OiE
This shows that Ilúvatar allowed Melkor to prove to Men that he was indeed Master. Ilúvatar could have, and should have, prevented the blotting out of the Sun. Then Melkor would have at the least have had to work much harder and Men would not have had what seems to be proof that Melkor was indeed the greater.
Are you sure that that would have made a difference. The excuse of OiE is that Men were ignorant and that is why they chose badly. Let me use another example in the legendarium. The Men of Númenórë. They had received instruction from the Valar, and lived in their island, they knew of Ilúvatar. They went to ME to battle Sauron and brought him back to their land. If the númenórëans had all of that knowledge, how is it possible that they were tricked by Sauron into worshipping Melkor. What is their excuse then? Ignorance? No. Men had free will and the ability to shape their fate, regardless of anything. In the case of Númenor, most of Men fell to the shadow but some of them, remained faithful, just like in the Tale of Adanel.
posted by OiE
And would not these "instruments" not have been more effective had it not been "Proven" to them that Melkor was greater than Ilúvatar? Melkor Blotted out the Sun and darkened Arda, how then could Men see other than Melkor as the greatest. Doubt as to the power of Melkor did not come to Man until they entered Beleriand and saw the Elves defying Melkor with limited success. Had Melkor been prevented from showing himself to be so powerful would not the "Instruments of the creation of Arda Healed" not have been even better when they joined with the Eldar?
Men are not fools. They wanted the easy way out. Had Ilúvatar ever threatened them? No. Could Men had chosen to abandon Melkor? Yes, and some of them did. That is exactly the thing that Ilúvatar was trying to teach them. They had the ability of learning by themselves, of growing, it would be slow, but it would be worth it. And that is exactly what happened in the end. Men with all of their troubles in the end became greater because of it. The difficulties did not destroyed them, only made them stronger. They stood up to the evil in the end of the F.A., and as Ilúvatar foretold, it is the seemingly instruments of Melkor, Men, who would in the End, make the world a much more greater place than it could ever be.

Have you wondered why my friends of OiE fail to post about the 3 concepts of Arda, and that Arda Healed, (Arda with the influence of Melkor redressed) would be better because of Men at the end of the World?
It makes me wonder.

[Ithrynluin]

I have copied this thread from the debate tournament, and cropped it of irrelevant posts.

Clearly, I would like to see it continue, as I think that much has gone unanswered and there are lots of arguments and potential routes to take! Everyone and anyone is welcome to participate!

[Arvedui]

Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it
If Ilúvatar was sufficiently involved in Arda, then why did it take so long for him to 'rebuke' Manwë for not taking actions against Melkor sooner?
How much hurt did Ilúvatar's absence cause?
When Melkor captured, tortured and maimed a number of the Firstborn, where was Ilúvatar?
When spirits and Elves where transformed into Balrogs and Orcs, where was Ilúvatar?
When the Lamps where overthrown, where was Ilúvatar?

He surely wasn't involved in Arda.