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Nóm
10-15-2003, 11:50 AM
Okay, we're going to try opening up a thread for each chapter of LotR every few days or so.

Any questions arising from the Prologue or comments concerning the infomation given in the proglogue can go in this thread.

In the prologue we learn about the nature of hobbits, the history of the Shire, hobbits migration into Eriador from the east, and very little and vague information on the ancient history of hobbits. It is clearly implied that they had been around from the early days of Men, but nothing is said of them in the old elvish histories.

We also learn all about the Pipe Weed, and the source of the tale itself. LotR is translated mostly from a copy of a copy of the original book of Bilbo's. Other information found in the book (the appendices :D) was either added in Gondor when Findegil made this third copy from the second,or later on as with the Tale of Years that was put together by the hobbits.

Personaly the hobbits are such simpletons that it annoys me, but in a way they are a great example of how we might live, rather than being so bad to eachother. We may wish to be elves, but it is beyond our grasp.

What do you guys think about the way hobbits live and of their personalities? Something I found a little funny but bothers me slightly is the fact that some stuck into Bilbo's party again just to get another gift, or the more serious stuff that happend in Bag End after Bilbo left... hobbits showing up and tearing up the walls and trying to sneek away with things that do not belong to them. But maybe that is just because I like Bilbo so much. The interesting thing is that they are greedy people, but in a different way than elves, dwarves, and men. For the other races greed leads to evil but not so for hobbits. Why do you think this is?

Bilbo is by far my personal favorite of all the mortal people of Middle-earth. I love him, and like Merry and Pippin but for the most part hobbits as people do not have much apeal to me, not so much as their comfortable and peaceful way of life does.

In The Peoples of Middle-earth, we learn a little more about the history of the hobbits.

We learn that the hobbits had much contact with men while living around Anduin, and while invasions of unfrendly Men from the east had a part in the migration of the hobbits, we also have this interesting bit of information...
Plainly the Hobbits had sensed, even before the Wizards and the Eldar had become fully aware of it, the awakening of Sauron and his occupation of Dol Guldur.

And some more on their ancient history...
In their unrecorded past they must have been a primitive, indeed 'savage' people, but when we meet them they had (in varying degrees) acquired many arts and cussoms by contacts with Men, and to a less extent with Dwarves and Elves. With Men of normal stature they recognized their close kinship, whereas Dwarvs or Elves, whether frinedly or hostile, were aliens, with whom their relations were uneasy and clouded by fear.

one more thing...
Bilbo's statement that the cohabitation of the Big Folk and Little Folk in one settlement at Bree was peculiar and nowhere else to be found was probably true in his time (the end of the Third Age); but it would seem that actually Hobbits had liked to live with or near to Big Folk of friendly kind, who with their greater strength protected them from many dangers and enemies and other hostile men, and recieved in exchange many services.

I am just rushing to get this up before it ends up not happening. But please, add questions and comments if you have them.

Inderjit S
10-15-2003, 05:17 PM
We learn in the Prolouge that the Hobbits had some contact with elves. One wonders if they had any with Lothlorien? Haldir claims that they hadn't heard of 'Halflings' for a long time and thought they were now extinct showing they knew something of Hobbits and it seems probable that Hobbits encountered them when living close the vicinity of Lothlorien.

Personaly the hobbits are such simpletons that it annoys me, but in a way they are a great example of how we might live, rather than being so bad to eachother

You are not the only one who views it in that way. Tolkien's 'Epilouge' (HoME 9) was dropped because a lot of people were tired of the Hobbit-talk in the Book. I enjoyed the opening chapters of LoTR, they were for me entertaining and light-hearted. Every books needs a bit of comedy.

Bilbo is by far my personal favorite of all the mortal people of Middle-earth. I love him, and like Merry and Pippin

I think that Sam would have been more of a 'typical' Hobbit then any of the other main Hobbits in the story.

Letter #214; Letters of Tolkien also deals with Hobbit customs as well as the things in HoME 12 you have mentioned.

Aulë
10-15-2003, 05:45 PM
I beleive that we also find out in the Prologue that Hobbits declined in numbers after the Third Age. Was this something to do with King Elessar's edict? (Remembers a long debate on the subject ;) ) Or some other reasons? Surely the increase in numbers of Men contributed to it, forcing the Hobbits to go into hiding.

The Prologue also provides a fair bit of foreshadowing, and gives away quite a few things (eg, Elessar became a King). Was this a good thing?

Goro Shimura
10-15-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Inderjit S
You are not the only one who views it in that way. Tolkien's 'Epilouge' (HoME 9) was dropped because a lot of people were tired of the Hobbit-talk in the Book. I enjoyed the opening chapters of LoTR, they were for me entertaining and light-hearted. Every books needs a bit of comedy.

I especially like the pub conversations-- the Gaffer & the Miller, and Sam & Ted.

The contrast is great when the Black Riders show up. Can you imagine... Farmer Maggot and the Gaffer... speaking rudely to a Black Rider!!

Wonderful!

Inderjit S
10-15-2003, 06:50 PM
The Prologue also provides a fair bit of foreshadowing, and gives away quite a few things (eg, Elessar became a King). Was this a good thing?

Well I think it is a 'good' thing because it goes with the general style of the book and what Tolkien wanted it to be, (i.e a historical account.) There is a lot of 'giving away' in the Book itself anyway.

Celebthôl
10-15-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Aulë
The Prologue also provides a fair bit of foreshadowing, and gives away quite a few things (eg, Elessar became a King). Was this a good thing?

Well, the fact that the last book was called "The Return of The King" gives it away also, let alone the fact that no author would write such a long book only to make the baddies win and the world to fall etc. ;)

Nóm
10-15-2003, 07:36 PM
I think that Sam would have been more of a 'typical' Hobbit then any of the other main Hobbits in the story.
Indeed. I do not like Sam. Bilbo, my favorite, is the least like a hobbit of the bunch.

I find the hobbiton bits entertaining, but then I also find bits about orcs entertaining... this is not to say I especially like the characters.

It seems possable hobbits had met up with Lothlorien elves in the past, but I would think those elves would remember this.

Aule, I wouldn't be suprised if the Shire was eventually invaded and either there was battle or the hobbits had become less due to something and hid instead of fighting.

Beleg
10-15-2003, 07:46 PM
Why did the hobbits, never, ever, fought between themselves?

Celebthôl
10-15-2003, 07:53 PM
Im pretty sure they did, it says something about the lasts Hobbits to be killed in the Shire by the hands of other Hobbits was somewhen. . .

Aulë
10-15-2003, 08:03 PM
It says that a Hobbit never murdered another Hobbit within the Shire. I suppose that it was just in their nature. They could be greedy (like the Sacksville-Bagginses), but that desire for wealth would not manifest in them to the point they'd murder someone, nor were they too evil. They had an air of innocence about them- and would prefer to sit down and smoke pipeweed, rather than worry about killing each other. They didn't desire power, so there was no need for fighting.

Flammifer
10-16-2003, 12:19 PM
Yep, I agree Aulë.

Perhaps the reduction of the Hobbits was because of the Plague? Or am I in the wrong time zone...?

Nóm
10-16-2003, 12:33 PM
Many thousand of the hobbits died in the plague... I am not sure if you have the time zone wrong because I don't know if you are talking about the Third Age or about post-edict Shire? There may have been another plague after the edict.... who knows?

Lúthien Séregon
10-16-2003, 12:33 PM
Also, a hobbit's greed rarely consisted of things likely to invoke possessive emotions like the type of greed that humans have ( like gold, silver, etc. ), but more so of more everyday or convenient items such as mushrooms. :p

Flammifer
10-16-2003, 12:43 PM
LOL Luthien!

Many thousand of the hobbits died in the plague... I am not sure if you have the time zone wrong because I don't know if you are talking about the Third Age or about post-edict Shire? There may have been another plague after the edict.... who knows?

Well, I'm not sure either! :rolleyes: :D :p. But either way, who's to say that they ever recovered from the plague, at whatever point?

Aulë
10-16-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Lúthien Séregon
Also, a hobbit's greed rarely consisted of things likely to invoke possessive emotions like the type of greed that humans have ( like gold, silver, etc. ), but more so of more everyday or convenient items such as mushrooms. :p
I don't know about that...
The Hobbits seemed rather keen to find Bilbo's gold, although it may have been more through curiosity rather than desire. And Lobelia seemed to desire Bilbo's silver spoons...
Lotho seemed rather greedy with all the land he was buying too.

Well, I'm not sure either! . But either way, who's to say that they ever recovered from the plague, at whatever point?
They probably made up for in the year SR1420 ;) They bred like rabbits in that year :p

Lúthien Séregon
10-17-2003, 02:17 PM
But even though they were silver, cutlery is still not really the type of thing that is often highly regarded as treasure. And Lobelia and Lotho seemed like especially mean hobbits. :p I can't imagine too many others really acting like that.

Starflower
10-17-2003, 08:54 PM
what I like about the prologue is that it tells us what happened to a lot of the characters after the events of the book, like Merry and Pippin for example. They are little more than children in the book, but then in the very end it tells how they became the heads of their families and collected writings from ROhan and Gondor to be preserved for their descendants. It would seem that in the Shire in the Fourth Age was a lot of information stored that never before existed in one place

Flammifer
10-19-2003, 07:39 AM
Yes, I agree. But for someone with a good memory who read the prologue, and then discovered once they were half-way through the actual story part that they knew basically what the outcome would be, it's a bit annoying. There's a lot of spoilers in that prologue.

Mali
04-18-2008, 04:26 PM
yes, there are a lot of spoilers in the prologue. I had been told that before I started reading, and thus did not read it until I finished the series, just to be sure. I think it would have ruined it for me if I had read it, as even though the movie was coming out around the time I started reading the books, I hadn't seen the movie or any previews before I finished the trilogy and the Hobbit.