Round 9: Guild of Outcasts vs. Guild of the Periaur [Archive]

Nóm

10-29-2003, 10:12 AM

The gift of Numenore was ultimately detrimental to the Edain. Not only because it caused the end of those people through battles and mingling with 'lesser men' (due to having become elitists), but also because it caused a once great people to become, for the most part, evil Morgoth worshippers who came to torment and sacrifice men to the darkness... and eventually lose all that they had gained.

Why did the Edain come to an end?

1) Most went down aftering attempting to attack the gods.

This would obvious not happen without Numenor.

Of the few faithful who survived:

2) Arnor struggled because it didn't have enough people.

There may be no Arnor... surely not one as we know it, if not for the Numenorean remnants.... but there would be a much greater number of men in Middle-earth and we can guess as to where their major realms would be located and who would rule them... but the point is there would be more Edain.

3) Many of the Gondorian Dunedain were killed off in kin-strife caused by racism.

There would be no racism against so called 'middle men' had the Edain not become so lofty. The primary reason for the racism of the Dunedain against other men in the west was due to middle men having shorter lifespans. Shorter lifespans would not be so if the Edain had remained in Middle-earth. Reason for racism gone bye-bye.

4) There was mingling with 'lesser' men.

These 'lesser' men would hardly be lesser if the Edain didn't become Numenoreans.

Then of course there was the battle of Dagorlad, and attacks headed up by Sauron such as the ruin of Arnor, and invasions of Easterlings and attack on Gondor from the South, and from Mordor.

Let's look at how probably would have gone if the Edain remained in Middle-earth.

The Northmen 'lesser men' who were devistated in Sauron's attacks several hundered years into the second age, were men of the same group from which came the House of Hador. They simply never made it into Beleriand. They were no friends of Morgoth. They had had a long time alliance with the Longbeards which ended when orcs filled the mountains and Moria was cut off. They were ruined and scattered. Had the Edain remained in Middle-earth these would have been one people, these men later dubbed 'middle men' by Numenoreans would not have been so far below them.

Sauron fooled the elves of Eregion, and when they discovered him he attacked and wiped them out pretty good. Bye-bye Ost-in-Edhil... BUT if Middle-earth had been full of Edain, these too would have continued to increase in skill, especially in the making of weapons... this can be assumed since they'd be friendly with dwarves and elves who together reached the highest level of smithcraft. Sauron would have had a much harder time attacking Eregion if lots of Edain had been around, and the men of Middle-earth better armed. There were some men in Middle-earth who became unfriendly with Numenoeans. Hated them even. This because 1) the Numenorean's eventual treatment of the men of middle-earth, and 2) Numenoreans destroying forest land. Both of these things would not have happend if there had been no Numenore..... therefore we have no reason that the men in the west would have any serious conflicts or hatred between them if the Edain had remained in Middle-earth.

So, as the second age moved along we'd have friendship among all the men of the west, dwarves and elves (at least the Noldorin... those of Eregion and Lindon... and later Rivendell) probably even the elves of Greenwood and Lorien.

When Sauron struck in the second age he had little resistance... mstly the elves scattered when attacked, the few men were wiped out or scattered... therefore they lived in small tribes hardly armed or able to defend themselves. It was not until Ar-pharharizon.... came that Sauron had any serious threat. Now in the scenerio with Numenor this will obviously not happen. But it need not happen because resistance in Middle-earth to Sauron woud have been a lot more due to the population of men being much greater and in alliance with dwarves and elves. Middle-earth will have been, earlier in the second age, able to fight just as they did in the Last Alliance. The Edain may have been less skilled than those faithful Numenorean remnants were... but there would be a hell of a lot more of them... non-elitists too!
And not only would there have been a lot more men, but it is most likely that the big rush of elves who took off with their tails between their legs when things got scary in the second age would not have done so... because they'd be stronger with Edain against Sauron. Maybe there would have been no Gondor and Arnor, but there would be some kind of realms... probably a situation much like we had in the first age where men served under the elf-kings.
So, instead of there beng a few faithful Edain who return to Middle-earth and are wiped out because of small numbers, and racism... there would be a lot more of them and without racism, and we have no reason to think that all of these would have been wiped out.

There would have been thousands and thousands of Edain all over the west of Middle-earth, and in perfect harmony with those Northmen from which came the Rohirrim, and with those kin of the people of Haleth who grew to hate Numenoreans, and from which came the Dunlendings. So there you have it... all the people of the west United. Who can say what would happen with Sauron then? But the Edain would be much better off than they were worshipping Morgoth in what Tolkien calls the second Fall of Men, from which only a few escaped to wane throughout the next few thousand years.

Nóm

10-29-2003, 10:31 AM

In my last post i said "Now in the scenerio with Numenor this will obviously not happen."

'with' should be 'without'... suppose it's obvious, but...

Celebthôl

10-29-2003, 12:36 PM

I must disagree, i think that the long age was the cause of the downfall of Numenor, so ill counter your points on this. ;)

1) This was more due to the age, if they did not live so long, they would not have grown up the courage to attack the Gods, remember, each time a new person is born, they have to build up their courage, if Ar-Pharazon had not been able to live the 500 odd years that he did, he would not have invaded Valinor.

2) Hardly a fault of the gift of Numenor.

3) Again, not a fault brought about by being given Numenor, this was more due to inborn jealousy etc.

4) Again, not a fault of being gifted Valinor.

The bottom line is that the Numenoreans were explorers, they would have traveled the entire world (as they had done), and would sooner or later have discovered Valinor (my guess would be sooner as they knew to stay away from it WHEN then had Numenor), and then would have landed and invaded, trying to increase their empire as most large kingdoms do. The fact that they had Andor mearly prevented their invasion of Valinor for a time, it was most certainly NOT a bad thing to have.

Infact i will go so far as to say, it was the best thing that ever happened on Arda to the children of Ilúvatar, it gave them the chance to flourish on their own, WITHOUT the intevention of the Valar (which the Ekves had), to which they did. They became the most powerful, and feared aswell as skillful race (for the most part), they became the most numerous in population, they defeated Sauron without having to unsheath a sword.

It was totally beneficial in my thoughts:

1) Held back the invasion of Valinor for a time,
2) Alowed Men to flourish,
3) Became the most powerful and mighty empire ever seen,
4) Conquered Sauron without even fighting.

Snaga

10-31-2003, 09:13 PM

I agree with Thol for the most part, and I want to expand on a number of his points. But first, I think it is worth giving some consideration to the question of 'scope'. What are we considering to be part of the 'gift' that is under discussion? I think this is important, because of the question of the longevity of the Numenoreans which has been referred to by both sides already.

Lets look at the quote given by Elfamari, as our jumping off point.

This comes from Akallabeth, as I'm sure everyone has readily identifed. I want to give it in full (or at least closer to the full quote), and I'll highlight the parts that Elfamari did not give.To the Fathers of Men of the three faithful houses rich reward also was given. Eonwe came among them and taught them; and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed.A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was nearer to Valinor. It was raised by Osse out of the depths of the Great Water, and it was established by Aule and enriched by Yavanna; and the Eldar brought thither flowers and fountains out of Tol Eressea. That land the Valar called Andor, the Land of Gift. [...lots about their journey here...] And they [the Edain] called that land Elenna, which is Starwards; but also Anadûnê, which is Westerness, Númenórë in the High Eldarin tongue.

What is important here is that Elfamari has LEFT OUT the question of the gift of longevity. This means that this can neither be claimed as a benefit by the Periaur, nor can it be used a negative by the Outcasts. This is a bit of a shame really, because it would make life so much easier for the Periaur. Longer lifespans were clearly of benefit to the Edain. But the Valar could have gifted that to the Edain but not given them Numenor to live on. Similarly the great wisdom and knowledge of the Edain, that came from Eonwe, will also have to be ignored. Even perhaps the flowers and fountains of Numenor? Dammit... it looks like this is a straightforward debate on geo-politics.

With this in mind lets chalk up a few positives for Numenor: they should make good targets for the Outcasts to take pot-shots at.:)

(1) Over 3000 years of security from attack and invasion. Thats by far the best period of 'homeland security' ever achieved by any of the Two Kindreds east of Elvenhome.

(2) It gave them the base from which they became the greatest sea-power in three ages. So much so, that Sauron could never threaten their coastal strongholds in Middle Earth.

(3) Numenor's power was sufficient to defeat Sauron's attack on Lindon in 1700, and drive him out of Eriador in 1701.

(4) Numenor forced Sauron's unconditional surrender in 3262.

Lets also look again Nom's list to see what is alive when the issues of knowledge, wisdom and longevity are removed. Certainly we can strike down 3) and 4) because the Edain would still have been 'lofty' given these gifts but no Numenor.

Whats left? When you distill it down, the argument of Nom amounts to this: that in Middle Earth (presumably somewhere in Eriador) the Edain would have done more to defeat Sauron than they did from Numenor. She wants to stretch the argument way out into the Third Age. I guess the question says 'ultimately' so maybe this is fair enough although I must say the lack of population of Arnor seems a more complex question than purely being the fault of Numenor. Remember, Eriador was a vast forest at the start of the Second Age. It seems unlikely that the Edain would have settled there if they didnt have Numenor. The coast of Gondor is much more likely to have been the place they would have settled in eventually. But who knows?

But the question has to be asked: what more could the Edain have done against Sauron than they did achieve? They defeated him twice in the second age... three times if you include the Last Alliance, which since we have extended the scope to include subsequent events seems fair enough.

Numenoreans 3 Sauron 0. Not bad eh?

Now sad to say, they never pressed home their advantage. In the first defeat, they were content with Saurons retreat back to Mordor. In the second, Ar-Pharazon's pride got the better of him. And in the third, Isildur got an attack of ring-lust. Are any of these the fault of Numenor, or are they in fact symptoms of the corruptable nature of Men?

And so lets come down to a key point here. For three thousand years the Edain were beyond the reach of Sauron. He could not corrupt them. Century of bliss followed century of bliss. Yet if the Edain have remained in Middle Earth what then? If Sauron, in the guise of Annatar, had come amongst them how quickly would they have fallen under his spell? If Celebrimbor and the elven-smiths of Eregion were fooled, we cannot imagine that the Edain would have fared any better. Instead of the fleet of Numenor assailing Valinor, we might have had the armies of the Edain assailing Gil-Galad.

Aulë

11-01-2003, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by snaga1
And so lets come down to a key point here. For three thousand years the Edain were beyond the reach of Sauron. He could not corrupt them. Century of bliss followed century of bliss. Yet if the Edain have remained in Middle Earth what then? If Sauron, in the guise of Annatar, had come amongst them how quickly would they have fallen under his spell? If Celebrimbor and the elven-smiths of Eregion were fooled, we cannot imagine that the Edain would have fared any better. Instead of the fleet of Numenor assailing Valinor, we might have had the armies of the Edain assailing Gil-Galad.
For some odd reason, I feel like elaborating on this a bit more. I don't know why...maybe it's because of the large amount of solar radiation in the air lately...:p

I have a simple equation to propose to you all:
Good Men + Evil Influence = Evil Men

'Why?' You ask?, well let me explain:
Unfinished Tales: A Description of Númenor
But for long the crews of the great Númenórean ships came unarmed among the men of Middle-earth; and though they had axes and bows aboard for the felling of timber and the hunting for food upon wild shores owned by no man, they did not bear these when they sought out the men of the lands. It was indeed their grievance, when the Shadow crept along the coasts and men whom they had befriended became afraid or hostile, that iron was used against them by those to whom they had revealed it.
So it seems that the Men of Middle Earth were quite friendly to the Men of Númenor for some time, and it seems that the Men of Númenor, in return, replanted many of the trees that they cut down. But when the Shadow spread across Middle Earth, the natives became hostile, and threatened the Men of Númenor.

The Númenoreans, however, remained free from the influence of Sauron on their island, and therefore thrived. But when they captured Sauron, and took him back to Númenor, he was able to spin his web of lies and corrupt the Edain. They then tried to kill off all the Valar, but ended up getting drowned in turn. What good came of this? Sauron was also drowned, but although he survived, he was never able to take on a deceptive form anymore.

If the Edain had NOT been given Númenor by the Valar, what would have happened? Sauron would have fooled the Edain with his 'Annatar' guise, like he did with Celebrimbor and the Elves of Hollin. Sure, Galadriel and Gil-galad were all suspiscious of Annatar, but if Elves such as Celebrimbor would fall for the Annatar-trap, the Edain most certainly would.

What would Sauron have suggested to the Edain? They wouldn't have had the ship-building skills of the Númenoreans, so they wouldn't have used their forces against the Valar, so Sauron would have sent them off to destroy the next best thing: the Elves of Middle Earth. Whether or not they succeeded in destroying the Elves would have been irrelevant. If they had won, Sauron would have had control of all of Middle Earth. If they had lost, Sauron would have attacked the remaining Elves with his forces, and he would have control of Middle Earth since there would be no Men of Númenor to save the Elves this time.

You may think 'The Men of Gondor were not corrupted by Sauron'; but Sauron's main way of corruption people was by using fair disguises to lull the victim into a false sense of security. Once he had lost this ability, his only way to corrupt was to capture the victim by force and torment them. The Edain were very strong in warfare, and therefore were able to hold off Sauron's attacks for many centuries until the War of the Ring.

So we see, Men are extremely corruptable, so it is their best interests to be kept away from evil influences such as Sauron. The gift of Númenor was the perfect way for the Valar to seperate Men from these influences, and therefore beneficial for the Edain.

Elfarmari

11-02-2003, 06:28 PM

I am sorry for the confusion caused by my quote, I was only intending to give an overview and was not thinking about limiting the scope of the debate. If this is acceptable, I would like to allow both sides to include any arguements they would like which support their side. In giving the quote, I was only trying to catch the facts of what happened (the Valar gave Andor to the Dunedain). Sorry!

Nóm

11-02-2003, 06:53 PM

Not a problem Elfarmari...

Okay... sorry for not replying soon.. have been ill and unable to concentrate much... I do have a nice reply to your posts but it is yet to be put into a more efficiant form.. and I must hunt down a quote to add to it... but before I submit i'd like to ask one thing:

One could argue that long life went hand in hand with Numenore... was gifted in preparation for Numenore... that sort of thing. However, I am not aware of any proof of this.

What is important here is that Elfamari has LEFT OUT the question of the gift of longevity. This means that this can neither be claimed as a benefit by the Periaur, nor can it be used a negative by the Outcasts. This is a bit of a shame really, because it would make life so much easier for the Periaur. Longer lifespans were clearly of benefit to the Edain.

Personally I rather not waste effort debating on whether or not longlife belongs in the same package as the gift of the island... too much of a side-track given the strict time limit.

So... do we count long life as part of the gift asked about in this debate, or do we take it seperate... a thing which would have still been given in the no Numenor scenerio?

If I don't hear back from you guys in... about 12-15 hours, I'll probably just reply without taking longlife as a part of the gift we are asked about.

Celebthôl

11-02-2003, 07:02 PM

It is not part of the gift, post away. :)

Nóm

11-03-2003, 12:06 PM

Some Tween points:

1) Numenoreans became the most mighty and Numerous of men. (They were Numenorous ;)).

2) Numenoreans had centuries of bliss.

3) Caused Sauron to saurrender ;)

4) Numenore was the perfect thing to keep men away from evil infuence.

To 1, 2 3 & 4 - While they had bliss for a long time before the shadow sunk back into their hearts, and they did more mighty and skilled, I agrue these things were not 'ultimately' beneficial, but rather the result of Numenor, and major causes of the ruin of Numenor and most of the Edain. For this reason Numenor was detrimental. The only good thing to ultimately come from Numenor was that some few among men had longer lives and more wisdom.. though these dwindled away.

What happend to the Edain? They got great gifts, one of which was an island from where some could actually see Tol Eressea. It was, as the Periaur say, a place safe from evil influence. While I agree this was a safe place from any external influence, it was the perfect catalyst in the return of the shadow of Morgoth on their minds and in their hearts, an spouting of the evil seeds planted in their first Fall. It was the cause of the awakening of the dread of mortality and the cause of jealous envy and eventual resentment of the Undying Lands and their people.This was the fall of the Edain.

....so it is their best interests to be kept away from evil influences such as Sauron. The gift of Númenor was the perfect way for the Valar to seperate Men from these influences,...
Ask Ar-pharazon and all the numenoreans who were sucked into the sea how well this worked? Or ask the faithful or the people of Middle-earth that they took and tormented and offered in sacrifice to Morgoth.

If the Valar cared about keeping Men from evil influence they'd have dealt with the Men out East, many of which were originall neither allied with the powers of good or of evil... but were taken over by Evil men who had worked for Morgoth. And these are the Men that Sauron won to himself.

Plain and simply: Numenor was a mistake. What makes this even worse is that it is not the first time the Valar made such a mitake. That is to establish safe places to hide from evil and let a select few in... but to hell with everyone else... in this case it was even to hell with the exiles who were too proud to return. Who paid for this mistake? The Edain more than any other people... as this was ultimately the extiction of the race. And the second fall of Men.

We don't even have to look at how things probably would have gone for the Edain if they were not given Numenor... all we really have to do is look at what came of the Edain because of Numenor... and ask if this was ultimately detrimental or beneficial. Clealry it was detrimental as it lead to an attack on the Gods and death of most of them... leaving the select few faithful to dwindle away in Middle-earth.
...and therefore beneficial for the Edain.
For a time sure...several generations of men lived in bliss and felt that bliss for what it was.. but before long the shadow crept back into their hearts making them greedy and eventually evil before they fell. So Ultimately it was the ruin of the Edain.

Lets look at what things could not have hapened if the Edain remained in Middle-earth:

They would not have fallen to Morgoth worship and attacked the gods and been sucked into the ocean, since most the reasons the Numenoreans did that would not exist for the Edain in Middle-earth.

This bliss soon become a place where there was discontent so was not blissful for the Numenoreans. This good was temperary and not 'ultimate'. While it long remained (up until the time of Ar-Pharazon and 'hostage' Sauron) a place free from external evil influence... this too was only temperary. Men are not free from evil, regardless of where they dwell, so Numenor could never have saved them from evil. In fact, being in a land without having to face evil, would do a better job than Sauron influence alone, in bringing out the evil in Men.

Akallabeth
Thus the years passed, and while Middle-earth went backward and light and wisdom faded, the Dúnedain dwelt under the protection of the Valar and in the friendship of the Eldar, and they increased in stature both of mind and body. For though this people used still their own speech, their kings and lords knew and spoke also the Elven tongue, which they had learned in the days of their alliance, and thus they held converse still with the Eldar, whether of Eressëa or of the westlands of Middle-earth. And the loremasters among them learned also the high Eldarin tongue or the Blessed Realm, in which much story and song was preserved from the beginning of the world; and they made letters and scrolls and books, and wrote in them many things of wisdom and wonder in the high tide of their realm, of which all is now forgot.

The Edain grew more mighty in Numenor, but lost it all. Not a benefit ultimately.

Bits I quote from Letters 256 and 338 can also be found in CT's intro to 'The new Shadow' in HoME XII. A large portion of Letter 131 can be found in the Preface to the second edition of The Silmarillion.

Nóm

11-03-2003, 12:17 PM

Now on to the claim that Sauron could have suckered the Edain had they remained in Middle-earth.

I am hearing a couple reasons that Periaur think this would be so.

One is the fact that men are easy to fall into evil. The other being that Sauron fooling some of the elves, shows that he could have done so with men too.

Quotes by Periaur...
So we see, Men are extremely corruptable,...
Not all of them are. The Edain were not... not until they had been living on Numenorean bliss long enough to become so discontent and fall under the old shadow.
You may think 'The Men of Gondor were not corrupted by Sauron'; but Sauron's main way of corruption people was by using fair disguises to lull the victim into a false sense of security.
Why think Sauron alone could pull the Edain against the Eldar? Even Morgoth could not do this. Now you may think that this is because Morgoth was obviously evil, and in an ugly form... but then do you think Morgoth went among the Edain himself? Not a chance of that coward doing so! He would have sent emessaries... just as he had sent them into the East later to currupt some of the easterlings after his attemts to put the Edain against the Eldar had failed. Furthermore do you think Morgoth sent ugly creatures to win men over? Not likely. He knew the benefit of having a fair and mighty form, and he would not end orcs dragons and balrogs to sway the Edain in Beleriand... he's have used phantoms perhaps and guys like Sauron.. in fair form. It is very likely Sauron was used in Morgoth's attempts to turn the Edain against the Noldor in the First Age. But anyhow, the paint is that nice looking people would have done this in the first age, and it failed with the Edain. Why then should it work later? Simple: it shouldn't.

Now, you say Edain would have fallen to Sauron, not only because men are more curruptable than elves and because Sauron was in a fair form, but also because some of the elves were fooled by Sauron which proves men could be fooled too. But now, what did Sauron convince them elves of Eregion to do? To try to make Middle-earth as fair as Valinor. He did not set them wittingly to evil. This is important because you claim he could have eent the Edain wittingly to evil... attacking the Eldar is obviously evil whereas making Rings of power was not.

And there is also another factor to be considered. Lindon and King Gil-galad in specific, were not fooled. Had the Edain been in Middle-earth... would they not have the same relationshp with Gil-galad as they had had with his anscestors... the previous Kings Fingolfin and Fingon, or if you take Gil-galad as the son of Orodreth son of Angrod... then would not the people of Beor who had dwelt in Dorthonion be very close with Gil-galad?

What is important here is to note the difference between the Edain and the Easterlings. These were elf-friends... not just allies of the elves. They had grown in wisdon and skill beyond any other men in Middle-earth, and as we see in Morgoth's failure to currupt Edain but success in currupting Easterlings, Edain were NOT so easily currupted as most men. Most imortantly, they had shaken off the old shadow of Morgoth. This shadow returned after years of bliss in Numenore... but why should it have returned had they stayed in Middle-earth?

Sauron was only able to turn the Numenoreans against Aman because they were already against the place in heart,the shadow was returning, and Sauron did so by convincing Ar-pharazon who was growing old, that he could have immortality if he'd go and take it from the gods who withheld it.

Letter 131
Sauron became thus almost supreme in Middle-earth. The Elves held out in secret places (not yet revealed). The last Elf-Kingdom of Gilgalad is maintained precariously on the extreme west-shores, where are the havens of the Ships. Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris (in English Rivendell) on the extreme eastern margin of the western lands. But Sauron dominates all the multiplying hordes of Men that have had no contact with the Elves and so indirectly with the true and Unfallen Valar and gods.
So we see who Sauron pulled under him. Easterlings, and Men wh had no contact with he Eldar.

Letter 131
Thus, as the Second Age draws on, we have a great Kingdom and evil theocracy (for Sauron is also the god of his slaves) growing up in Middle-earth. In the West - actually the North-West is the only part clearly envisaged in these tales - lie the precarious refuges of the Elves, while Men in those parts remain more or less uncorrupted if ignorant. The better and nobler son of Men are in fact the kin of those that had departed to Numenor, but remain in a simple 'Homeric' state of patriarchal and tribal life.
The men in the west of Middle-earth, such as those who descended from the Edain of the First Age but who did not go to Numenor, as well as those men who were akin to the Edain but had no reached Beleriand, were not suckered by Sauron. All evidence points to the conclusion that the Edain, if they had not gone to Numenor, would not have been talked into attacking the Eldar.

So, Numenor caused the ruin of the Edain, and had they stayed in Middle-earth they'd have been untied with others against Sauron, and surely not have attacked the Eldar.

Celebthôl

11-03-2003, 04:03 PM

They got great gifts, one of which was an island from where some could actually see Tol Eressea. It was, as the Periaur say, a place safe from evil influence. While I agree this was a safe place from any external influence, it was the perfect catalyst in the return of the shadow of Morgoth on their minds and in their hearts, an spouting of the evil seeds planted in their first Fall. It was the cause of the awakening of the dread of mortality and the cause of jealous envy and eventual resentment of the Undying Lands and their people.This was the fall of the Edain.

And WHO says that this was a fault of Numenore?
All that you have shown here is that they resented Valinor, who's to say that they wouldnt hate it if they lives in Middle Earth aswell?
If they never got Numenore, whats to stop the hate being there again? And most likely it would have effected them A LOT quicker.
Do you forget that ALL the peoples of Arda were mared as soon as they were born because of what Morgoth had done? It was NOT the fault of an island that there was hate present in Numenoreans; but a success for Morgoth who had implanted hate and badness into the very earth itself from before the time of any of the childrens awoke.
Im sorry, but there is NO way that this island being near Valinor (or far from it, it would have made no difference) caused the hate and resentment that you speek of. It was bred within them from the very stuff of the earth.

Ask Ar-pharazon and all the numenoreans who were sucked into the sea how well this worked? Or ask the faithful or the people of Middle-earth that they took and tormented and offered in sacrifice to Morgoth.

It was not the Valars doing or fault that the Men of Numenore captured Sauron and listened to him and then assailed Valinor.
It was not the islands either. ;)

If the Valar cared about keeping Men from evil influence they'd have dealt with the Men out East, many of which were originall neither allied with the powers of good or of evil... but were taken over by Evil men who had worked for Morgoth. And these are the Men that Sauron won to himself.

And deny then one of their gifts? The gift to shape their lives about the fortunes of the world?
That isnt right at all, thats little more than Hitler enforcing Nazism onto the German people. It can be argued of course that maybe Sauron was doing this already, but the Men didnt have to follow Sauron, they chose to for whatever reasons. The Valar cannot be there to clean up the mess after ever blunder of Men, they would have to find their own way, in their own time, and im pretty sure, that they did. :)

Just so i can get better clarification etc, WHY exactly DID Numenore cause the hate etc in the hearts of Men, what did this island do too them?

Nóm

11-03-2003, 04:55 PM

And WHO says that this was a fault of Numenore?
All that you have shown here is that they resented Valinor, who's to say that they wouldnt hate it if they lives in Middle Earth aswell?
If they never got Numenore, whats to stop the hate being there again? And most likely it would have effected them A LOT quicker.

Why would it effect them quicker if they stayed in Middle-earth?

It is the fault of Numenor because from there they could actually see Tol Eressea, were bound to become mighty and mariners, and had no trouble to keep them busy so they cooked up trouble of their own. In Numenor they became so great and so wealthy in such a good life that they wanted immortality all the more.

Do you forget that ALL the peoples of Arda were mared as soon as they were born because of what Morgoth had done?
Yes... I forget that ;).
It was NOT the fault of an island that there was hate present in Numenoreans; but a success for Morgoth who had implanted hate and badness into the very earth itself from before the time of any of the childrens awoke.
Im sorry, but there is NO way that this island being near Valinor (or far from it, it would have made no difference) caused the hate and resentment that you speek of. It was bred within them from the very stuff of the earth.

The potential for hate is within Men, but also the potential for much good. Edain had been good for several hundred years, and continued to be for hundreds more after going to Numenor. What changed then, to bring the shadow back upon them? Years and years of paradise. Had they stayed in Middle-earth and had to stuggle a little sometimes, and actually faced evil...

It was not the Valars doing or fault that the Men of Numenore captured Sauron and listened to him and then assailed Valinor.
It was not the islands either. ;)
Sauron submitted to Numenor because doing so fitted with his plot to destroy it. If there had been no Numenor, Sauron would not have been taken there.

But as an aside it was partly the Valar's fault. The Valar foresaw, in part, that Numenoreans would seek immortality.

Letter 131
The Downfall is partly the result of an inner weakness in Men - consequent, if you will, upon the first Fall (unrecorded in these tales), repented but not finally healed. Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment! The Fall is achieved by the cunning of Sauron in exploiting this weakness. Its central theme is (inevitably, I think, in a story of Men) a Ban, or Prohibition.
The Númenóreans dwell within far sight of the easternmost 'immortal' land, Eressea; and as the only men to speak an Elvish tongue (learned in the days of their Alliance) they are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves - but they remained mortal, even though rewarded by a triple, or more than a triple, span of years. Their reward is their undoing - or the means of their temptation. Their long life aids their achievements in art and wisdom, but breeds a possessive attitude to these things, and desire awakes for more time for their enjoyment. Foreseeing this in part, the gods laid a Ban on the Númenóreans from the beginning: they must never sail to Eressëa, nor westward out of sight of their own land. In all other directions they could go as they would.
So you see there, the Valar suspected what might happen.
But back on the point:
Long life causes more of a possessive attitude, and it aids in the achievements in art and wisdom which causes the Edain to want even more time to enjoy these things. But (and this is imortant to note) the paradise of Numenor also aided their achievements... therefore it too contributed to the hunger for longer life.

So dwelling in Numenor, and with a long life, was the deadly combination. Men were left in paradise to have great achievements and possessions, they could actually sea Eressea, and were bound to become great Mariners. In Middle-earth they'd have been busy dealing with orc attacks and whatnot, and Eressea would just remain a distant name. Some may become great Mariners, but as good as the Numenoreans? They'd be able to explore the lands without need of ships.

And deny then one of their gifts? The gift to shape their lives about the fortunes of the world?
That isnt right at all, thats little more than Hitler enforcing Nazism onto the German people.
I'm not sure what you think I mean, but I tink you mistake me. I just ment that if the Valar wanted to keep men from evil influence, they should have thought about the Men out east.
It can be argued of course that maybe Sauron was doing this already, but the Men didnt have to follow Sauron, they chose to for whatever reasons.

Sauron was winning their allegience. But "for whatever reasons"? Those reasons would be that after the defeat of Morgoth, his Evil Men came among them and dominated them, becoming kings. The men of the west are no less selfish than are the Valar and the Eldar... those Easterlings could have easily been convinced that they were left out, while other men had more opportunities which gave them more wealth, skill, and a better (even longer) life all around. Why didn't the Valar coax there little Vanyar babies into spreading wisdom and hope among the Easterlings?

oops back to topic ;).

Snaga

11-04-2003, 01:28 AM

The Outcasts present a number of distinct arguments against Numenor, as well as some counter-arguments to the Periaur position that the Edain in Middle-Earth would have fared worse. They also makes some more general, and therefore somewhat off-topic points about the allegedly mistaken policies of the Valar. These last I will address first, because the ‘I know better than the Valar’ rhetoric cries out for deflation.

These points are, briefly, that the Valar gifting the Edain Numenor was uncaring of the plight of the men ‘out East’; and that the Valar’s attitude was one of ‘to hell with everyone else’ while a select few dwelt in a safe haven. It appears more to be an error of judgement in believing that Morgoth vanquished had left Middle-Earth free for Men to dwell free of evil of a super-natural kind. Numenor was a ‘reward’ not a tactical move. Its aim was to provide a land of bounty to the faithful allies of the Eldar. The Valar did not ignore the plight of Middle Earth, but rather sent the Istar to move the free peoples of Middle Earth against Sauron, once they saw that this was needed. Of course I too could cast stones at the Valar for this, but it seems peculiar to question their motives. I think this is really because the Outcasts wish to establish that the Edain were ‘set up’ by the Valar. But we know that Manwe was completely free of evil: he would not set up the Edain for a fall (or A Second Fall). So we return to the topic, which seems to be turning on a debate about ‘what went wrong?’

The Outcasts have made a number of points on this theme, contesting that it was Numenor itself that was the cause of their Fall, whilst the Periaur lay the blame at the feet of Sauron.

What is not in doubt is that Numenor was, a very long period, a great place to live. Free from war and peril, mighty in knowledge and the arts. Not paradise, but the zenith of human civilisation (at least in the legendarium). Now the Periaur contest that that is in itself worthwhile, the Outcasts say it was not ‘ultimately beneficial’ because it was destroyed or dwindled away. But is a life not ‘ultimately beneficial’ because it comes to an end? I believe it is. That Numenor provided a wonderful home for many many people who lived wonderful lives is worthy and laudable even for its own sake. But even in the utilitarian world of the Outcasts, it remains as an example, an ideal, a template for human society that endured for centuries afterwards. Faramir instructs Frodo that before a meal in Gondor they look west to Numenor and Elvenhome: it is an inspiration to them. It shows them the greatness that Men can achieve, and they revere it: they do not curse its name or bow their heads in shame.

But let us list the Outcast reasons for believing Faramir should be ashamed.

(1) They believe ‘It was the cause of the awakening of the dread of mortality’ and as a result they were filled with ‘resentment of the Undying Lands and their people.’

(2) ‘Men are not free from evil, regardless of where they dwell, so Numenor could never have saved them from evil. In fact, being in a land without having to face evil, would do a better job than Sauron influence alone, in bringing out the evil in Men.’

(3) ‘Long life causes more of a possessive attitude, and it aids in the achievements in art and wisdom which causes the Edain to want even more time to enjoy these things. But (and this is imortant [sic] to note) the paradise of Numenor also aided their achievements... therefore it too contributed to the hunger for longer life.’

(4) Numenor itself ‘lead to an attack on the Gods and death of most of them... leaving the select few faithful to dwindle away in Middle-earth.’

Lets deal with these in turn. Firstly is it the case that Numenor awoke the dread of mortality? This is clearly not the case, as we learn in Athrabeth Finrod Ah AndrethMorgoth’s Ring
’Content?’ said Andreth. ‘No heart of Man is content. All passing and dying is a grief to it; but if the withering is less soon then that is some amendment, a little lifting of the Shadow.’So she tells us that the Edain are already afflicted with a fear and dread of death, that they already long for longer lives. She speaks of ‘a loss irremediable’ and ‘a wrong that is done to us’. Her words are full of envy for the Eldar. It did not take Numenor for these thoughts to arise in her, and she counted amongst the wisest of the Edain.

How do we weigh this against Tolkien’s statement in Letter 131, that Nom provides: Their reward is their undoing - or the means of their temptation. Firstly, I don’t see the two as entirely incompatible, because the Numenorean’s did nothing about this temptation for 3300 years. It took Sauron’s intervention to get them to break the Ban. But Letter 131 is reckoned to date from late 1951, whereas Athrabeth was written some 8 years later. When Tolkien turned again to the matter of the Fall, he seems to have decided that mere geography was not enough!

But when we move to the second claim, we are just in the realm of the nonsensical. We are asked to believe that the Numenoreans became more evil by having no evil to face. That somehow, having to face Sauron would have made them better in some way? This is bizarre. He really aint much of a dark lord if his influence brings out the good in people! Besides, look what he achieved in his short period of influence over the Numenoreans!! We’ll come to that later of course. But in any case it is rather a mistake to characterise the Numenoreans as entirely absent from Middle Earth. They were the greatest explorers and navigators, and they had ports on many shores. They DID fight against Sauron on the side of Gil-Galad. They didn’t fight Sauron more often because he stayed clear of the coasts because of his fear of them! Or perhaps that means that Sauron had a cunning plan to make them evil by leaving them alone? If so it seems Sauron himself did not that ‘absence makes the heart grow fonder of evil’: he decided to go to Numenor himself because after 3300 years waiting for this strategy to work he was beginning to grow impatient! (I am minded to worry if Frodo after all would have been better off not destroying the Ring, after all the goodness Sauron was spreading in Gondor!;) )

(3) The third argument too seems farcical. Numenor aided in the growth of wisdom and knowledge, and therefore made people want to enjoy longer lives, and hence they fell into evil?? So by this reasoning, it would have done the Edain a big favour to land them on some miserable dunghill to eke out a brief and unedifying existence at the end of which they could thank their lucky stars for mortality? This doesn’t seem right. In fact when you read that quote from Letter 131 again we find: Their long life aids their achievements in art and wisdom, but breeds a possessive attitude to these things, and desire awakes for more time for their enjoyment. So Tolkien lays the blame, not on Numenor per se, but on the extension of their life-span. But even so, we are still talking only about their ‘temptation’, not on their fall.

(4) And so we return inevitably to the matter of Ar-Pharazon and his assault on Valinor. To me it seems wrong to blame Numenor itself for the attack. It rather exonerates Sauron. It is the direct influence of Sauron upon the aging king that leads to the Great Armament, not Numenor itself. Never before had any attempted to break the Ban. We have 3300 years of Numenor without Sauron, in which the Ban stood, and 57 years of Numenor with Sauron, at the end of which the Ban is broken. The conclusion is obvious: the nature, geography and cultural heights of Numenor did not overcome the fear of Mortality that was already there, nor did they create them. And certainly they did not cause the attack on Valinor: that was Sauron’s doing. Far from Sauron’s absence being beneficial, it lead to the swift demise of Numenor.

Snaga

11-04-2003, 01:30 AM

So we turn at last to the Outcasts attempt to dismiss the idea that Sauron could have corrupted the Edain in Middle-Earth. We are asked to accept that Sauron could only achieve this on Numenor, and not in Middle-Earth. Lets examine their reasoning, and then see what the evidence and some logic can tell us. The Outcast argument run thus:

(1) The Edain were not corruptible ‘until they had been living on Numenorean bliss long enough to become so discontent and fall under the old shadow’.

(2) Sauron alone could not pull the Edain against the Eldar, since even Morgoth could not do this.

(3) Attacking the Eldar is obviously evil whereas making Rings of power was not.

(4) Gil-Galad wasn’t fooled by ‘Annatar’ and his friendship would have kept the Edain from listening to him.

(5) The Edain were ‘elf-friends... not just allies of the elves. They had grown in wisdom and skill beyond any other men in Middle-earth’ , and ‘they had shaken off the old shadow of Morgoth’.

On the question of whether Morgoth could turn the Edain against the Eldar, I think there is an element of chicken and egg here. The Edain are those men who didn’t hearken to Morgoth. Some men he could turn against the Eldar, but not all. Those that he didn’t turn against them are known to the Eldar. Is there something inherently better about the Edain? No. They are just Men, who come to be elf-friends. But this doesn’t make them immune to the Shadow.

We also know that ‘Morgoth had no plan: unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a ‘plan’. ‘(Morgoth’s Ring). This is by contrast to Sauron’s desire to rule the world. Morgoth only want to destroy: his motivation for trying to turn the Edain was less: he could churn out more orcs, dragons etc for that purpose. His military superiority in Middle Earth was assured: this we know because his victory was only averted by the Voyage of Earendel. Sauron had no such luxury, and achieved his victory with more cunning.

At this stage I am slightly frustrated in that there is a brilliant example of some among the Edain being corrupted, and spreading dissent and discord in a debate about the direction that they should take in their migrations. If I get the time I will dig further. But it is certainly the case that although the Edain were largely uncorrupted in the First Age, this is not evidence of their incorruptibility.

And whilst it is true that attacking the Eldar would have been obviously evil, and Celebrimbor did not do ‘obvious evil’ in the same way, that is besides the point. Firstly we learn that many of the Eldar did listen to Sauron in his guise as Annatar, so we can guess that many of the Edain would too. Gil-Galad didn’t know it was Sauron: he just felt unsure of him. Certainly not enough to give a clear warning: or Ost-in-Edhil would have listened. If Ost-in-Edhil didn’t listen, would the Edain? Are they wiser? Are they less likely to hearken to one who claims to be from Valinor, who will teach them, who will impart wisdom and gifts? Or are they MORE likely to listen?

Even if you wish to believe that at first they would resist, because of their friendship with the High King, let us not forget that the Eldar used to sail to Numenor regularly and these visits dwindled because the Numenoreans were becoming less friendly and more envious. So contact with the elves provides no immunity, and the elves would tend to allow themselves to be pushed aside. There is no reason to suppose the same would not happen in Middle-Earth. The Edain would in all likelihood grow apart from the Eldar, because the same desire for immortality was always there, and Sauron could play on that as readily in Middle Earth as he did in Numenor. Nay: more readily, because he could do so while pretending to be an emissary of the Valar!

Now, the moment you believe they would have listened consider this. Could there have been anything more 'obviously evil' than attacking Valinor? Of course not! We know Sauron could turn them to evil: because that's exactly what happened, as soon as he got his chance.

Ultimately, the Edain would have fallen. If not through the subtle lies alone, then it would have been when their king had accepted one of the Nine Rings. No king of Numenor was ever a Wraith! But in Middle-Earth, he would have accepted a ring, forged by Celebrimbor, from the hand of the ‘emissary of the Valar’, and by that means Sauron would have ensnared him. So when the forces of Sauron had invaded Eriador, the lords of the Edain would have been on his side. There would have been no Tar-Minastir to save Gil-Galad!

Nóm

11-04-2003, 01:09 PM

On the off-topic stuff about the intention of the Valar:
I think this is really because the Outcasts wish to establish that the Edain were ‘set up’ by the Valar.
I didn't want to establish that, just pointing out that the Valar forsaw, in part, what might happen to the Numenoreans. I think this was probably an error of the Valar, but we aren't really asked that question. All the stuff about them not helping men out east was off topic.

Numenor was a reward, and we can leave it at that.

Firstly is it the case that Numenor awoke the dread of mortality? This is clearly not the case...
Periaur go on to show that the dread of immortality was a result of the first Fall of Men. I have not and will not deny that, but it remains that the Edain shook of the old shadow and came to a point of wisdom where the fear of death was not so great and dominating as to cause jealous envy. After some time in Numenor this shadow returned, awakening the fear of death which was now so strong that it lead them down the evil road again. Why Andreth is counted wise among the Edain, I do not know, but it must be for her lore. Andreth was more bitter than your average Adan(eth), probably due to her love of Aegnor and belief that he did not love her. I seriously doubt you would hear Beor or Hador speak so bitterly against Eru, Valar and Eldar, and I seruously doubt that the Edain, at the time of Numenor (remember - Andreth during that conversation had no hope that Morgoth woud be defeated and she counted him lord of the world - this was a woman more under shadow than many of her people - and remember that the tale of the fall which Adanel and Andreth knew... was known among the 'wise' of the Edain... not all of them) would have haboured jealousy and such envy of the immortals. The very fact that some that some few of the Edain (most of which where of the house of Beor, just like the bitter and despairing Andreth - which goes to show she was exceptional) remained faithful, and that for long the Numenoreans on the whole maintained friendship with the Eldar just goes to show that if there were any hard feelings they were hidden very very deep within the Edain. Later in Numenor this stuff came to the surface and got the best of them.

Sure, Aathrabeth was written after that letter but this does not mean Tolkien decided geography was not enough.As far as I am aware he never said geography was enough. Even though Tolkien hadn't written an acount of the fall of men at the time of that Letter.... the Fall was indeed a thing that had already existed in his world (he had probably not yet writen an account of it since these were to be elvish histories - Eldarin in origin and concerned with the Eldar... mentioning only men as they tie in to the elves' history)... even in that letter 131 which you point out was written before the Athrabeth, he speaks of the fall.

Now I do not deny that this first fall is what caused Men to be such that they would fall into evil. Tolkien even says that the second Fall of Men, that of Numenor/Edain, was consequence of the first Fall. What is more, he says so in letter 131. I believe I quoted him on it in my last post.

While Numenor was a cause of the eventual dread of mortality in the Numenoreans, I do not mean it was the only cause or the first cause ever. Living in Numenor awakened this dread... brought back the old shadow. Note that Tolkien says in a few places... Akallabeth, Tale of Years, Letters?... that the Numenoreans had fallen under Shadow, or of the shadow falling on the Numenoreans.

That stuff is not at all to say that Edain (their ancestors really) were wholey free from evil always up until the time of Numenor or that the shadow which fell on Numenor was a first for them... but rather that because of the first Fall, Numenor and long life was a bad thing, Men were a fallen race, Numenor was the second fall. And when Tolkien speaks of men becoming bored with good, the reason for that boredom must surely be their first fall.

I believe Periaur have mistakenly thought we claimed something we do not, as far as that went?

Faramir was descended from the Faithful Numenoreans.. now if he should be ashamed or not is up to him... but I think he doesn't need to be at all. His ancestors did nothing wrong.

Admittedly I should have said "were not easily currupted" Though it remains that when Sauron was currupting during the second age... he did not win over those kin of the Edain who were in Middle-earth.

So I don't claim that men were ever immune to the shadow.. not even the Edain... but they had come a long way in escaping the shadow... and so where not easily currupted.

Numenoreans fell under the old shadow again which is why Sauron was able to talk them into worshipping Morgoth... attacking the gods. Sauron fed the belief that they would have immortality if they could take the undying lands for their own... and he fed their pride... causing them to believe they had a chance of success should they try.

So it goes like this:

The Fall of Men, who are thereaftter inclined to evil. Entire race of Men is fallen... which does, as Periaur said, carry with it the dread of death.

Some men repent and head west.

Some of these reach Beleriand in the First Age and become Edain, While some of their kin who also repented did not reach Beleriand to become Edain/Elf-friends . As part of being Edain... these repenters grew in wisdom and their life span grew longer in Beleriand in contact with the Eldar.

Morgoth defeated.

Edain have their life further lengthened and go to Numenor.

In the west of Middle-earth those repenters who did not reach Beleriand dwell.I think some of the Edain (people of Haleth?) dwell there too having never gone to Numenor? Anyhow, these men were not in with Sauron or contact with the elves. Sauron won allegience of men out east... those who were ruled by evil kings who had been in the service of Morgoth and where heavily under the shadow. Had many of these ever repented of Morgoth worship?... it matters little now, as they are either still evil OR evil again... either way these men are 'evil'. The point is that Sauron won over men were were under shadow.

Meanwhile in Numenor the Edain/Numenoreans grew greater still in wisdom and become more mighty with each generation. Their long life, Tolkien said, was a cause of them growing so great, which in turn caused them to desire more time in the world to enjoy those things. GoO claim that Numenor, like long life, and also hand in hand with long life, was also a cause of them becoming so mighty which in turn caused them to hunger for more time. <--Where is the fault in that?

Tolkien says long life was their undoing. Why was it? Because it aided in their achievements which became so great as to cause them to need more time.

How did long life aid them into becoming so mighty? Having a long life one becomes more wise and each man can accomplish more as he grows in skill too.

GoO says Numenore was also a cause of their undoing. Why was it? Because it aided in their achievments which became so great as to cause them to need more time.

How did Numenor aid them in becoming so mighty? It was safe, and living there the Edain were in frequent contact with the Eldar of Eressea.... they even learned Quenya *gasp* ;)... and much other wisdom besides.... though it was later lost. Living in this bliss, having nothing to do with their time but learn and improve their arts, caused them to become greater people.

So, I hope you guys see how life in Numenor was so good it was bad. Is long life good? Sure it is, but it can cause very bad things. Likewise living in Numenor was good, but it too was a cause of a bad thing for the same reason.

We also know that ‘Morgoth had no plan: unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a ‘plan’. ‘(Morgoth’s Ring). This is by contrast to Sauron’s desire to rule the world. Morgoth only want to destroy: his motivation for trying to turn the Edain was less: he could churn out more orcs, dragons etc for that purpose. His military superiority in Middle Earth was assured: this we know because his victory was only averted by the Voyage of Earendel. Sauron had no such luxury, and achieved his victory with more cunning.
But did Morgoth really have no plan? He did come to a point where he only wanted to destroy everthing, as Tolkien says... but this does not mean he did not impliment much cunning and many plans. I think this means that his ultimate plan was nothing really.. jst a plan for distruction If Morgoth had been some mindless monster who just wanted to destroy destroy destroy right now! Why not have smashed the elves when they woke up defenseless at Cuivienen... the same with Men?.... he could have killed of the Children of God who he hated. Why didn't he? Simply... he must have had great plans with them. We are also told that a nihilistic fit of rage on the part of Morgoth could be enough to ruin Middle-earth, so why didn't he just go on a rampage crushing and stomping in a mad frenzy rearing up and down like a horse, juggling barlogs and dragons? (Umm dragon juggling is going too far but you get the idea) He did have plans, more sophisticated than immediate ruin. Men used against God, elves probably used against the Valar. Was Sauron more cunning than Morgoth? Looking at their actions... it does not really appear so. Imagine the cunning of Morgoth to turn some of the elves of Valinor against the Gods? To get into the minds of the Noldor which such subtlety that they had thoughts springing from his words, without knowing Morgoth was the origin of it.

Nóm

11-04-2003, 01:16 PM

His Motives for turning the Edain were less than Sauron's? I can not believe it. He had to have been using them as his greatest weapon against God.Or at the very least against the Quendi. And as I claimed earlier... Morgoth would have used servants in his attempts to currupt the Edain in Beleriand (1. he was too much of a coward to leave Angband & 2. We are told that he only left his stronghold once... and that was when he went out to greet the new race of men) probably even Sauron was involved in Morgoth attempts to turn the Edain on the Eldar... but it failed! So the arguement that Sauron could have later turned the Edain while Morgoth was unable to, because Sauron was more cunning... doesn't really stand up. The fact is: Edain were not so easily currupted as the men away out East. The reason for this is that the Edain had shaken of the shadow. Though it would later return in Numenor. Which, by the way, is why Sauron was able to sway them.
But when we move to the second claim, we are just in the realm of the nonsensical. We are asked to believe that the Numenoreans became more evil by having no evil to face. That somehow, having to face Sauron would have made them better in some way? This is bizarre. He really aint much of a dark lord if his influence brings out the good in people! Besides, look what he achieved in his short period of influence over the Numenoreans!!
&
(3) The third argument too seems farcical. Numenor aided in the growth of wisdom and knowledge, and therefore made people want to enjoy longer lives, and hence they fell into evil?? So by this reasoning, it would have done the Edain a big favour to land them on some miserable dunghill to eke out a brief and unedifying existence at the end of which they could thank their lucky stars for mortality
Facing Sauron would not have made them better but rather it would have kept them busy and would not have been a long age of bliss which made life and achievments so great that a deep and dominating desire for imortality would have come upon them pulling them back under shadow. Tolkien says (in different words) that the accomplishements of the Numenoreans which were so great because of the level of skill they had reached, was the cause of the shadow.

Again,, from 131: "Their reward is their undoing - or the means of their temptation. Their long life aids their achievements in art and wisdom, but breeds a possessive attitude to these things, and desire awakes for more time for their enjoyment." Now this, coupled with what we read in Akallabeth can leave no doubt that it was this possessive attitude which caused the return of the shadow. At least, I honestly can not see any room to doubt this.

Would you say Tolkien's explaination is also nonsense? That long and healthy life which leads to great achievements can lead to evil? If not, why then say the claim that peaceful life in Numenor which also allows for those same achievements (and in hand with long life was all the better for being bad) was a cause in bringing evil, is nonsense?
So Tolkien lays the blame, not on Numenor per se, but on the extension of their life-span. But even so, we are still talking only about their ‘temptation’, not on their fall.
He does blame the long lifespan, but not directly. It is blamed indirectly... like this: long span = greater achievements = possessive attitude & desire for more time.

GoO adds that: Age of peace in Numenor + long life = EVEN MORE achivements than would be without a long time of peace = all the better to cause hunger for more time.

GoO even says that:long life + fancing stuggles = less in achievements = less hunger for more time.
(4) And so we return inevitably to the matter of Ar-Pharazon and his assault on Valinor. To me it seems wrong to blame Numenor itself for the attack. It rather exonerates Sauron.
Achievements to posessiveness and desire for more life lead to the return of the shadow which Sauron used,Numenoreans being under shadow, to talk Arphy into attacking. Numenor is not blamed directly for the attack, but indirectly. Numenor was therefore a cause.
The conclusion is obvious: the nature, geography and cultural heights of Numenor did not overcome the fear of Mortality that was already there, nor did they create them.
Living in Numenor helped cause the fear to come back into their life's and dominate their motives such as it hadn't done before, and didn't do with those elf-friends who remained faithul.

Could there have been anything more 'obviously evil' than attacking Valinor? Of course not! We know Sauron could turn them to evil: because that's exactly what happened, as soon as he got his chance.
He did convince people who were fallen under the shadow again to attack the gods. Note that he did not convince all the Numenoreans to do this. And why not? Because those few faithful remained in friendship with the elves Because they had not fallen under shadow. Sauron did not cause people to fall under the old shadow, but only toyed with men who already had.

Why did Numenor fall? They fell under shadow from long life, and living in bliss, through those things causing them to be so great in accomplishments that they desired immortality and dreaded death to such an extent that they grew against the immortals, and Sauron then stepped in and took advantage of this. Just as Sauron had been doing it all all along (ask them in Alalminore at the song of the gong. ;)), using Morgoth's seeds... his 'Ring' his groundwork, to win people over to evil.

The Outcasts have made a number of points on this theme, contesting that it was Numenor itself that was the cause of their Fall, whilst the Periaur lay the blame at the feet of Sauron.

GoO blames Sauron too. Blame long lifespans, Numenor, Sauron, Morgoth and the first Fall of Men, and blame of course, Men themselves.

In no way was Numenor the only cause of the fall of the Edain, but it was one of the major causes. It contributed a great deal allowing the Numenoreans to become so mighty as to dread death to a degree they came under shadow as they had not since their earliest days of Morgoth worship. It was therefore detrimental ultimately to the Edain as it lead to their ruin.

And in addition to Numenor providing that perfect setting where men did nothing but grow too great for their own good,it was closer to Aman than to Middle-earth, a place from where they could see Eressea, and its location assurred the Edain to become mighty Mariners who otherwise would probably not have... not anytime during the Ages of evil incarnate in the world.

And Maybe the Edain would have been ruined if they remained in Middle-earth. It is a 'what if' scenerio and anything is posssable really... but what is actual history... what did indeed happen... is Numenor proved detrimental for the Edain in the end. You guys go far in attempt to show that Sauron would have currupted the Edain had they stayed in Middle-earth, turn them against the Eldar... but i think that considering everything is it unlikely to have happened. Yea, considering everything the chances are the Edain, and all the other 'good' people, would have been better off had there been no Numenor.

In final attempt to that prove Sauron would have turned the Edain against the Eldar...you present:

Ultimately, the Edain would have fallen. If not through the subtle lies alone, then it would have been when their king had accepted one of the Nine Rings. No king of Numenor was ever a Wraith! But in Middle-Earth, he would have accepted a ring, forged by Celebrimbor, from the hand of the ‘emissary of the Valar’, and by that means Sauron would have ensnared him. So when the forces of Sauron had invaded Eriador, the lords of the Edain would have been on his side. There would have been no Tar-Minastir to save Gil-Galad!

Now your scenerio here is all well in good.. IF WE WANT TO CHANGE THE CHRONOLOGY OF THE EVENTS! Sauron did not have the Rings at the time he attacked Eregion.

Sauron took all those lesser rings after his attack of Eriador... After the battles you say a ring weilding king of Edain would be fighting against the Eldar in...Even after the Elves of Ost-in-edhel whom he had fooled, were aware of him and his puproses. So Edain can not have, would not have, had a Ring of Power from Sauron before or during the attacks on the Eldar. The Edain would have been well aware of Sauron before he took the Rings... if not from learning this directly from the Eldar, then in witnessing Sauron lead up an attack on the Eldar (and surely upon themselves?) before his victory, the defeat of Eregion which allow him to plunder the Rings. Would they take a Ring from a Dark Lord who had just attacked them and their friends? Mostly likely is that with the aid of the Edain Eregion would not have been ruined and the Rings not have been left for Sauron to take.

So... when the forces of Sauron had invaded Eriador, the lords of the Edain would have been on the Eldar's side. The whole people of the Edain would have fought with the Eldar against him. No Tar-Minastir would be needed to save Gil-galad.

And if Sauron had tried to turn Edain against Eldar BEFORE the Eldar had fallen to making Rings.. he would have reveiled his ill intentions... elves would have been aware of him and so not have listened to his teachings and made the Rings. No Numenor... no One Ring... hehe! We have reached a great conclusion together ;)

But this scenerio of a Ring weilding King of the Edain leading his people in attack upon the elves is so faulted as to be entirely invalid.

Nóm

11-04-2003, 02:02 PM

Just heard from Aule... :rolleyes:

When I mention the long life I do not aim to be including it as part of the gift of Numenor.

Aulë

11-04-2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Nóm
And Maybe the Edain would have been ruined if they remained in Middle-earth. It is a 'what if' scenerio and anything is posssable really... but what is actual history... what did indeed happen... is Numenor proved detrimental for the Edain in the end.
Well going by that approach, we could ignore all claims by you that the Edain would be better off without Numenor. All of them are 'what if' scenarios.
The only 'actual history' that we have is that the Edain were given Numenor, and because of it, Sauron was defeated whilst the Edain continued to prosper.

Nóm

11-04-2003, 02:51 PM

Well going by that approach, we could ignore all claims by you that the Edain would be better off without Numenor.
You could but it is probably better to argue against it as you guys have been doing.

And this is not really an approah, so much as pointing out something. Is it not a fact that anything was possible though some more probable?

The only 'actual history' that we have is that the Edain were given Numenor, and because of it, Sauron was defeated whilst the Edain continued to prosper.
Which defeat are you speaking of? The one where he was driven from Eriador for some time, the One of the last alliance, or the final defeat with the destruction of the One Ring?

But also actual history is that Numenor and most of the people were destroyed. I would say it is also fact that Sauron is not the only thing to blame for that.

Nóm

11-04-2003, 03:27 PM

What is not in doubt is that Numenor was, a very long period, a great place to live. Free from war and peril, mighty in knowledge and the arts. Not paradise, but the zenith of human civilisation (at least in the legendarium). Now the Periaur contest that that is in itself worthwhile, the Outcasts say it was not ‘ultimately beneficial’ because it was destroyed or dwindled away. But is a life not ‘ultimately beneficial’ because it comes to an end? I believe it is. That Numenor provided a wonderful home for many many people who lived wonderful lives is worthy and laudable even for its own sake.

If we take Numenor to be a cause of the ruin of the Edain (which GoO does), then the question of whether or not the long years of bliss were worthy for their own sake, even if the answer is "yes", does not rule out that the causes (in this case Numenor was one of them) were ultimately detrimental.

I could, for example, agree with a statement such as "Numenor allowed for many generations of happiness and bliss". I may even say, that because of this, it was good to have existed and worthy for its own sake. But I think such an arguement would be better if the topic where this instead: Was Numenor worth the price the Numenoreans paid?

While it may have been good to have existed it was still detrimental for the Edain. I would say, that it was seemingly ("seemingly" because it was actually leading to a bad destination) beneficial for a time, or maybe even beneficial for a time in that it gave thousands of people good lifes before the shadow returned. But still not beneficial to the Edain ultimately, as in in the end.

Aulë

11-04-2003, 03:27 PM

Well I'm saying that Numenor was given to the Edain, and Sauron was defeated (as in Frodo destroying the One Ring) because of it.
Numenor contributed to this by having its people gather such strength so that Sauron surrendered, and was brought back to Numenor and eventually drowned in its downfall. Because of this, Sauron lost the ability to take on a fair form and was kept quiet for some time as he recovered. During this absense, the Elves of Middle Earth were able to build up enough strength to assist the remnants of the Edain in attacking Mordor. This victory took the One Ring away from Sauron, which allowed those Hobbits to destroy the One Ring (and Sauron) a few thousand years later.

Numenor was an integral part of Sauron's destruction. And going by your approach of ignoring any 'what if' scenarios, we have to say that it was a good thing for the Edain (and the rest of the people of Middle Earth) that Numenor was given as a gift to the Edain since the largest evil factor remaining in the world was destroyed because of it.

One could also say that the Downfall acted as a 'cleanser' of sorts, that killed off the more 'corruptable' Edain, and kept the faithful ones alive... allowing the descendants of the faithful Edain (the Men of Gondor and Arnor) to set up their own realms in Middle Earth. A rather nasty thought, but true still the same.

Nóm

11-04-2003, 03:51 PM

And going by your approach of ignoring any 'what if' scenarios...
I am not ignoring what if scenerios... anything is possible.

Now the reason I asked which defeat you were speaking of is that you claim it was a defeat after which the Edain continued to prosper.

So, how many Numenoreans where left going in the Fourth Age and how long did they last? Just how did they prosper? Did the race not become extinct, and very largely because of the fall of Numenor?

One could also say that the Downfall acted as a 'cleanser' of sorts, that killed off the more 'corruptable' Edain, and kept the faithful ones alive... allowing the descendants of the faithful Edain (the Men of Gondor and Arnor) to set up their own realms in Middle Earth.

It did kill off the ones who where quicker to fall under the shadow, but they were Edain all the same, the majority of the race in fact... their well being is taken into consideration with this topic.

So we could say it cleased the race of Edain by keeping only the very top, the minority who were most faithful... but what came of these faithful? Was their small number not the end of the race? And would the race have lasted if they hadn't gone down into the sea? Again... who can say for sure... but seems most likely to me.

As I said in earlier posts... if the Edain stayed in Middle-earth they'd have been large numbers in alliance with the elves and probably even their non-Edain kin, and fought even stronger against Sauron in the second age. So I am thinking the Edain would have lasted if not for Numenor. But even aside from that, they ended because of it. Most of them in a very ugly end... not just the island going under but their later days of Morgoth worship.

Aulë

11-04-2003, 04:14 PM

Where were the Numenoreans in the Fourth Age? You ask.
Well all of Gondor, and the Rangers of the North were Numenorean or part-Numenorean in the Fourth Age, as well as some of the Rohirrm (after Faramir's marriage to Eowyn, and the highly likely probabilty of Gondor/Rohan marriages before and afterwards). You may say that the blood of Numenoreans had been weakened by non-Numenorean blood through relations such as Valacar and Vidumavi's. But the same thing would have happened had the Edain been forced to settle in Middle after the War of Wrath, but far earlier on. The Edain did not intermingle too much with other nations of Men in the First Age, since they had their own lands in Beleriand. But if they hadn't been given Numenor, they would have had to settle in Middle Earth, where other types of lesser-Men already dwelt, and it would have been a formality that they inter-bred.

Numenor kept the blood of the Edain pure, be it only for 3287 years. But it stayed purer than it would have had they been forced to dwell with lesser-Men earlier on.

Nóm

11-04-2003, 06:20 PM

When did the Edain cease to be a race?

When there was not even one Dunadan left in the world?

What is a Dunadan? Is one of the Rohirrim with Numenorean blood one? How much of the defintion is cultural? Seems that it isn't cultrual at all... it's all about bloodline... so one of Rohirrim could be a Dunadan, but how much blood would they need?

I guess it is hard to say. I guess all we can say for sure is that the great majority of Edain went down with Numenor, and the few who survived dwindled in wars and mingled.

After the Downfall of Numenore, Elendil led the survivors of the Elf-friends back to the North-western shores of Middle-earth. There many already dwelt who were in whole or part of Numenorean blood; but few of them remembered the Elvish speech. All told the Dunedain were thus from the beginning far fewer in number then the lesser men among whom they dwelt and whom they ruled, being lords of long life and great power and wisdom.
From the appendix on Languages.

"far fewer in number" from the beginning. I'd say that is no more than 20 percent of the population of their realms. Then considering Arnor was wiped out and only a few of the Northern Dunedain remained, we can just go ahead and look at Gondor. Say they were 20 percent at the beginning. Now, also considering that the multiplied more slowly than the lesser men, it would only take several generations to go from being 20 down to being less than 5 percent. And that is me generous I think. Then also consider that a lot of mingling went on, especially after Eldacar (or whoever the King was that Castamir drove out), this means the percentage would be less than 5. I'm sure if someone had the time, you could get a better estimation of what the percentage, and even number of the Dunedain of Gondor was at the end of the Third Age... but what we do know is that it was a very small one. But surely your statemen that the Dunedain were "well all of Gondor" is dead wrong... and by far.

But I do not see the Edain prospering. They survived dwindling and mingling into extiction through the Third Age, and must have disapeared soon after. Is there a reason to think this is not true? A reason to think the Edain made some sort of come-back? :p

But if they hadn't been given Numenor, they would have had to settle in Middle Earth, where other types of lesser-Men already dwelt, and it would have been a formality that they inter-bred.

The Edain would have greatly out-numbered the lesser men (their long lost kin) had they remained in Middle-earth, and as the lesser men who were willing mingled into the Edain (not the other way around) they would have become Edain, Elf-friends. Just like the Two houses of Edain who entered into Beleriand years after the First house. But because there would have been so many Edain, the race would likely not have become extinct. Not only that, but they'd have been better of than having most of them turn to evil and Fall to ruin.

Snaga

11-04-2003, 06:28 PM

It seems I got a little muddled: I should avoid posting late at night. Sometimes it best to just put your hands up and admit your mistake. I'll do that. My chronology was muddled.:(

But this is not at all to concede the point I was trying to make: that events in Eriador would have gone much worse without Numenor. Firstly it seems abundantly clear that Sauron could and would have seduced the Numenoreans long before Celebrimbor had been duped. It only took 50 years at the end of the Second Age. Even if I accept they would have been more resistent in Middle Earth for the 'reasons' claimed by GOO, given free access he would have won them over far earlier.

But what if I'm wrong? Would, after the war in Eriador, Sauron have found it impossible to give a ring to the King of Numenor? Well if Ost-in-Edhil's closest ally, Durin, Lord of Moria took one, why not the Numenoreans? Lets check the Akallabeth:Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Numenorean race.So it seems the Numenoreans did NOT learn to mistrust Sauron. But, luckily, the King did NOT get suckered into taking a ring. Why not? Because he was on Numenor! Ta-da!!:)

Nóm

11-04-2003, 07:01 PM

Firstly it seems abundantly clear that Sauron could and would have seduced the Numenoreans long before Celebrimbor had been duped. It only took 50 years at the end of the Second Age. Even if I accept they would have been more resistent in Middle Earth for the 'reasons' claimed by GOO, given free access he would have won them over far earlier.
But he was only able to get the Numenoreans into Morgoth worship and Valar attacking so quickly because they had already fallen back into the shadow... no thanks to Sauron.

I just thought to read the LotR appendix bit on Numenor, and found something useful. It gives weight to my claim that dwelling in Numenor was a cause of the shadow that fell upon the Edain, and to my claim that being free of outside evils and troubles contribued to the Edain turning evil in Numenor:
The realm of Numenor endured to the end of the Second Age and increased ever in power and splendour; and until half the Age had passed the Numenoreans grew also in wisdom and joy. The first sign of the shadow that was to fall upon them appeared in the days of Tar-Minastir, eleventh King. He is was that sent a great force to the aid of Gil-galad. He loved the Eldar but envied them. The Numenoreans had now become great mariners, exploring all the seas eastward, and they began to yearn for the West and the forbidden waters; and the more joyful was their life, the more they began to long for the immortality of the Eldar.
Then of course it goes on to say that it was after after Tar-Minastir that the Kings became greedy of wealth.

But note the bit that "and the more joyful was their life, the more they began to long for the immortality of the Eldar." So this shows it was not long lifespans alone which sent the Numenoreans down the evil path, but also the joy of life in Numenor.

Also note that, "and they began to yearn for the West" directly follows "The Numenoreans had now become great mariners, exploring all the seas eastward,"... as though it were at least in part a consequence.

But what if I'm wrong? Would, after the war in Eriador, Sauron have found it impossible to give a ring to the King of Numenor?
Well, they would not have been Numenoreans... would not have been under the shadow that Numenoreans were under when Sauron was able to convince them to attack Aman. Numenoreas may have known not to trust Sauron if they had not been in their state of mind at the time, and had not forsaken friendship with the Eldar.

But if you are wrong about Sauron, then why should it have come to the making of the Rings, or if that happend, to the defeat of Eregion? The thousands of Edain would have made a huge difference in that battle.

And even if Sauron tried and failed to turn the Edain against the Eldar, would the Eldar not have learned of this and known not to trust him?

Snaga

11-04-2003, 07:12 PM

Now to reply to Nom's comments on my points relating to the first Fall, based on Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

Firstly, it is good that Nom accepts that there was a fear of death present in the Edain, that didn't start in the time of Numenor. A key point.

But her defence is that Andreth is somehow exceptional, in her fear and bitterness. An interesting opinion but one not supported by the evidence. The opening to the text says of the Edain in general:Finrod would often visit Andreth, whom he loved in great friendship, for he found her more willing to impart her knowledge to him than were most of the Wise amongst Men. A shadow seemed to lie upon them, and there was a darkness behind them, of which they were loth to speak even among themselves.Andreth is actually exceptionally open to the Eldar, not exceptionally hostile. Moreover, she discloses:'How or when shall healing come? To what manner of being shall those who see that time be re-made? And what of those who go out in darkness unhealed? To such questions only those of the "Old Hope" (as they call themselves) have any answer.'

'Those of the Old Hope?' said Finrod. 'Who are they?'

'A few,' she said; 'but their number has grown since we came to this land, and they see that the Nameless can (as they think) be defied. Yet that is no good reason....'So we see that those who fear death, those who despair of death are in fact the MAJORITY!

It seems that the time of the Numenoreans living in bliss, without fear or dread of death is the EXCEPTION and not the rule. They were rewarded with this time of joy and fulfilment for their role in the War of the Jewels. It was their contact with Eonwe that lifted it from the shadow and fear for a time. The Outcast argument amounts to saying that because the Numenoreans were not unmarred by the Valar, that their reward was detrimental. But was it? Or was that time in which Men reached their zenith, the height of their wisdom and grace not worthy in itself? Does it not amount to anything in the final analysis? And was it not an inspiration that allowed Gondor to remain steadfast in its long years of defiance?

Nóm

11-04-2003, 08:22 PM

As I said:
I seriously doubt you would hear Beor or Hador speak so bitterly against Eru, Valar and Eldar, and I seruously doubt that the Edain, at the time of Numenor (remember - Andreth during that conversation had no hope that Morgoth woud be defeated and she counted him lord of the world - this was a woman more under shadow than many of her people - and remember that the tale of the fall which Adanel and Andreth knew... was known among the 'wise' of the Edain... not all of them) would have haboured jealousy and such envy of the immortals.

The reason I make this distinction between the Edain of First Age and those during the time of Numenor is to aknowledge the effect of Eonwe's teachings. This did lift the shadow even more than it had already been lifted by the Eldar. Andreth was despairing about Morgoth, but of course at the time of Numenor, the Edain had clearly seen that good won out over evil.

I think you mistake my point about Andreth... it was not to say she was unlike the most of the Edain in her fear of death, but that she was exteptional in her bitterness, more bitter than average due to Aegnor. It was mostly just to add to my statement that I am not sure why she is counted wise. She does not strike me as being wise, and surely not in sense the word seems to be used in The Silmarillion. Wisdom usualy seems to refer to knowledge of the Iluvatar through the Gods, or through the Eldar from the Gods... teachings of the elves when the word is used of men... rather than having some old mannish lore. Andreth was ignorant, bitter and very cynical about the Eldar and especially Valar, despite her openess with Finrod. But perhaps I am wrong, maybe she was no more despairing or under shadow than the rest of her people... could be she was just more willing to express it, or that it seems worse to me because of Aegnor. But there is no hint anywhere they I know of, of any other of the House of Beor or even of the House of Hador being so bitter against the Eldar and Valar.

I fully acknowledge the Edain feared death all through the First Age. But I claim this fear was not so much as to cause the level of jealousy as it later did with the Numenoreans. Morgoth's failure to turn Edain against Eldar indicates this.

I can't prove this with text, but it is my belief that the reason that most of the faithful Numenoreans were of the House of Beor is that those people met Finrod first and he was among them for awhile. When they grew wiser in heart from listening to his song... the same thing that happend later with Eonwe, but less potent due to Finrod being less powerful than Eonwe.

It goes like this:

Edain fear death.

After some contact with the Eldar, the shadow is lifted some, and their life becomes longer (a thing which always go hand in hand with not fearing death).

Eonwe & Numenore... shadow lifted more than ever.

Numenoreans falls back under shadow and greater than it had been during their time in Beleriand. Probably greater than it had been since they repended out east long ago.

The Outcast argument amounts to saying that because the Numenoreans were not unmarred by the Valar, that their reward was detrimental. But was it?
I don't see how it amounts to saying that it was detrimental because the Edain were not unmarred by the Valar.

I better make a closing statement because I'm getting tired.

GoO says:

Numenor proved detrimental since it was a cause in the second fall of men which involved the destruction of Numenor and death of amost all of its people/ the Edain. Those few who were not destroyed dwindled and mingled away. And GoO further speculated that the Edain would have been much better off had they remained in Middle-earth, due having alliances with the people in the west of Middle-earth and being in such large numbers against Sauron, who we claim could not have won them over as they would not have been under the shadow.

This is how Numenor was a cause:

It was such a long time of bliss that it, like long lifespans, caused the Edain to increase to such might and skill that they grew possessive and greedy with a strong hunger for immortality. The bliss made them unhappy untimately, as it caused them to dread death even more. It was the dread of death and desire for immortality which caused the Numenoreans to come under shadow. It was because they were under shadow that Sauron was so easily able to get them to worship Morgoth again and attack Aman which brought their ruin. Not only that but Numenor was a place from where the Edain could actually see Eressea (which was a tease), and also a place where they were bound to become great Mariners... having little else to do with their long years.

That Numenor was a cause in the ruin of the Edain (which GoO thinks is probable would not have happened had they stayed in Middle-earth) we say it was detrimental to them.. and any benefits were temperary as so not ultimate, or too tiny to compete with the degree to which Numenor proved to be detrimental in the end.

The End... (will kick myself later for something I am forgetting here).

But thanks Periaur, it was a fun debate.

Snaga

11-04-2003, 09:31 PM

Here is GOO’s argument in a nutshell. He (Tolkien) does blame the long lifespan, but not directly. It is blamed indirectly... like this: long span = greater achievements = possessive attitude & desire for more time.

GoO adds that: Age of peace in Numenor + long life = EVEN MORE achivements than would be without a long time of peace = all the better to cause hunger for more time. This is what the Outcast want you to believe. But what else do we find?

Bye-bye Ost-in-Edhil... BUT if Middle-earth had been full of Edain, these too would have continued to increase in skill, especially in the making of weapons... this can be assumed since they'd be friendly with dwarves and elves who together reached the highest level of smithcraft. Sauron would have had a much harder time attacking Eregion if lots of Edain had been around, and the men of Middle-earth better armed. Ahhh… so if they had STAYED in ME they would have increased in skill and knowledge too! Damn!

Surely a mistake? Well

Some of these reach Beleriand in the First Age and become Edain, While some of their kin who also repented did not reach Beleriand to become Edain/Elf-friends . As part of being Edain... these repenters grew in wisdom and their life span grew longer in Beleriand in contact with the Eldar. Oops… it seems that contact with the Eldar was also causing exactly the same issues that would lead to the Second Fall. It seems that this fate was inescapable!

And this is really the point. Any lifting of the Shadow over the whole of Man is temporary, because of the nature of Men:

But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoil of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said, ‘These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.’ Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwe, who knows most of the mind of Iluvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him. It is in the nature of Men to fail, to fall. They are not perfect or divine. To argue that Numenor caused their Fall is mistaken.

It is one thing to describe how they fell on this occasion: Nom has described only the manner of their fall, but the cause is in their imperfect nature, in the very marring of Arda. But to claim that they would not have fallen under the Shadow in Middle Earth is to dispute the very nature of Men. The Numenoreans in Middle Earth were the ones who took the Rings of Power: hardly a sign of the up-lifting nature of Middle-Earth. All that can be said is that if they had stayed in Middle Earth the manner of their fall would have been different. There was civil war in Arnor, between Cardolan, Rhudaur and Arthedain. There was the Kin-Strife in Gondor too. Why so? Because even though these realms were set up by the Faithful, they could not escape the Shadow altogether. From Letter 156 Elendil… and his sons Isildur and Anarion… established a kind of diminuished memory of Numenor in Exile on the coasts of Middle Earth – inheriting the hatred of Sauron, the friendship of the Elves, the knowledge of the True God, and (less happily) the yearning for longevity. It is an unfortunate truth of Men that they will often stray from the light, and that the fear of death never goes away. Alas, for Gondor and Arnor to fall into strife no period of bliss and peace was required. Evil has many ways of working, and if the Shadow fell upon Numenor, it was at least averted for a great length of time.

For centuries they grew in stature, in wisdom and in power. They reached the greatest state that Man could achieve. It was an enduring benefit: a model for the Edain to aspire to ever since, and an inspiration in dark times. This is a point the Outcasts have never managed to dent.

In the end they say that Numenor came to an end. As a result they say we should disregard all that was achieved. But when you come to the final analysis, to look for ultimate benefits, then those benefits that accrued to the Edain that knew and were part of that great civilisation must be counted.

Against all that, all those centuries of bliss and achievement, and that inspiring legacy, all we have in reply is that somehow, in Middle Earth, the Edain would escape their very nature! This would not happen, because it could not happen. And with the perils of the world upon them, and guile of Sauron in their midst you have to believe it would have been faster. Even when, in the Third Age, the Edain could no longer be deceived by Sauron they were inclined to fall into shadow, into Kin Strife.

To conclude: to think that there would be some escape from the Fall in Middle Earth is a delusion. Only in Numenor was there an escape for a time. And there, they built a civilisation whose legacy was one of inspiration to the foes of Sauron that endured, through to their eventual victory. Not for nothing did Aragorn have joy at the finding of the scion of the White Tree on the slopes of Mount Mindolluin.