Round 9: Ost-in-Edhil vs. Tolkienology [Archive]

Arvedui

10-28-2003, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by Rhiannon
Topic: 'Who proved more detrimental to the good of the other peoples of Middle-Earth: The Noldorin Exiles or the lesser houses of Men?'

The answer to this is the lesser houses of Men.

From Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth: 'Then are you content here?' said Finrod.
'Content?' said Andreth. No heart of Man is content. All passing and dying is a grief to it; but if the withering is less soon then that is some amendment, a little lifting of the Shadow.'
So already before the Edain met the Eldar, there was grief among Men. Why is this?
the answer can be found in The 'Tale of Adanel.' After Men had been deceived away from Eru, he came back and spoke to them one more time:'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.'
And Men grew afraid, but fearing their Master, still did his bidding. But:For most of us, this was in vain. But to some he began to show favour: to the strongest and cruellest, and to those who went most often to the House. He gave gifts to them, and knowledge that they kept secret; and they became powerful and proud, and they enslaved us, so that we had no rest from labour amidst our afflictions.
Does not this description fit others that we have heard of from the Silmarillion? Brodda the easterling, and Lorgan. Men, who were powerful and proud, and who enslaved other Men.

And let us not forget Men like the sons of Ulfang, who at the turning point of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad went over suddenly to Morgoth an drove in upon the rear of the Sons of Fëanor, and in the confusion that they wrought they came near to the standard of Maedhros. They reaped not the reward that Morgoth had promised them, for Maglor slew Uldor the accursed, the leader in treason, and the sons of Bór slew Ulfast and Ulwarth ere they themselves were slain. But new strength of evil Men came up that Uldor had summoned and kept hidden in the eastern hills, and the host of Maedhros was assailed now on three sides, and it broke, and was scattered, and fled this way and that.
The Silmarillion And so the eastern defences fell to the power of Morgoth.Great was the triumph of Morgoth, and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only those of the Three houses of the Edain.
The Silmarillion
And after this, Hithlum fell, and Doriath was ruined, and last of all fell Gondolin.
Men fought against Men, Dwarves, Elves and Men were alienated, against eachother. The only peoples who kept a firm alliance against Morgoth, were Elves and the Men of the Three Houses of the Edain. And from them came Eärendil, and the downfall of Morgoth.

Gil-Galad

10-30-2003, 12:08 AM

I would like to make a short announcement.
One of our debators has some problems and he is not able to participate in the debate.Is it possible our sweet and noble Finduilas to replace him?
Thank you very much.:rolleyes:

Arvedui

10-30-2003, 12:15 AM

Yes!

Although one word posts are not allowed.

But then it isn't any longer, is it?;)

Gil-Galad

10-30-2003, 12:26 AM

Thank you!
I see that the debate has started and I wish GOOD LUCK to both Guilds.:)

Eriol

10-30-2003, 02:39 AM

We will attempt to show how the evil brought about by the Noldor is of a more serious and damaging nature than the evil brought about by the lesser houses of Men.

1. On bias

This may seem to be a small consideration, but it will become more important as our argument develops. The Silmarillion – and all other stories in the legendarium pertaining to that matter – were written by Elves, or by people instructed by Elves. It is small wonder if Men are thus seen as big bad guys. To corroborate this point:

Published Silmarillion, "Of Men"

Of Men little is told in these tales, which concern the Eldest Days before the waxing of the mortals and the waning of the Elves, save of those fathers of men, the Atanatári...

The bias inherent in the "little that is told of Men" may be shown by the famous words a bit above that quote:

The Atani they were named by the Eldar, the Second People; but they called them also Hildor, the Followers, and many other names: Apanónar, the After-born, Engwar, the Sickly, and Fírimar, the Mortals; and they named them the Usurpers, the Strangers, and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed, the Heavy-handed, the Night-fearers, the Children of the Sun.

I believe this is enough on the matter of the bias; it is quite explicit.

2. The comparison between the Noldor and Men as regards the evil brought about by them

In many instances there is a comparison between the Fall of Men, addressed by Arvedui in his quotes of the Athrabeth, and the "Fall" of the Noldor. I remember one Letter in which Tolkien speaks of it; I’ll hunt for it later. And there is this:

The Published Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of Men into the West"

Of his [Morgoth] dealings with Men the Eldar indeed knew little, at that time, and learnt but little afterwards; but that a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor) they perceived clearly even in the people of the Elf-friends whom they first knew.

The specific hurts brought about by each race are known; Arvedui mentioned a few of the Mannish faults, and I can name the Noldorin faults just as easily. Arvedui attributes two of them to the lesser houses of Men, by the way – the fall of both Doriath and Gondolin. I think he is mistaken. Surely these two realms fell because of the Doom of Mandos, a Noldorin fault; men had precious little to do with Doriath and nothing to do with Gondolin.

The point I intend to make here is that in a story told from a biased point of view the two evils are deemed to be comparable. The bias then indicates that if there is any mistake in the reporting, it is against the bias – i.e., if the story told in the Silmarillion is lenient to any of the two groups, it is for the Noldor. It is not conclusive, but it is an interesting aspect of it.

That said, and before I go to my next point, let me quote what is in my opinion the most succinct paragraph in the Sil, and one of the best overall:

The Published Silmarillion, "Of Men"

But the dawn is brief and the day full often belies its promise; and now the time drew on to the great wars of the powers of the North, when Noldor and Sindar and Men strove against the hosts of Morgoth Bauglir, and went down in ruin. To this end the cunning lies of Morgoth that he sowed of old, and sowed ever anew among his foes, and the curse that came of the slaying at Alqualondë, and the oath of Fëanor, were ever at work. Only a part is here told of the deeds of those days, and most is said of the Noldor, and the Silmarils, and the mortals that became entangled in their fate...

I call your attention to the listing of the reasons offered in this paragraph, and to the word "entangled". Men became "entangled" in the fate of the Noldor.

3. Culpability, or "they should have known better!"

The Noldor were the most skilled of the Eldar. They were skilled artisans and loremasters. They were taught by the Valar. They were loved by the Valar. They lived in the Blessed Realm of Aman. And yet... they fell to Morgoth’s lies as easily as Men. How did Men fell for Morgoth’s lies? No Valar came for them. They had only the cautious Avari as friends. They were hunted by beasts and worse things. And then Melkor, He Who Arises in Might, shows himself and offers them prosperity and power.

Who is more to be blamed? Who had more opportunity to avoid "drinking the bitter cup that Melkor had prepared for them?" The children of Men, or the wise Noldor?

4. Conclusion

The record shows that the two kinds of evil were of the same magnitude; a biased record shows that. The Noldor had much more opportunities (they "should have known better") to avoid falling for Morgoth’s lies, which were at the base of both evils. And so their weakness was proved to be more detrimental to the good of the peoples of Middle-Earth.

And that is the Tolkienologist's position :)

Lhunithiliel

10-30-2003, 11:14 AM

detrimental = harmful

So…. Which of those large groups of people was really more harmful ?

Lesser Men - say our opponents. In what way? Just because they were overwhelmed by grief and finding no escape from the “shadow”?
Grief however did not make them be destructive. The influence of Melkor over the race of Men was enormous … yet all they did was to flee from it in attempts to find light – the light of the West as they had heard about from their scarce communications with the Avari in the lands of ME.
What harm could their grief bring? Except of course to themselves!

From the “Athrabeth:
'No heart of Man is content. All passing and dying is a grief to it; but if the withering is less soon then that is some amendment, a little lifting of the Shadow.'

But…let me continue the “light”-search – motif. In searching for it Men discover only that: (the Athrabeth)
…. we cannot escape within this world, nay, not even if we could come to the Light beyond the Sea, or that Aman of which ye tell. In that hope we set out and have journeyed through many lives of Men; but the hope was vain.
So said the Wise, but that did not stay the march, for as I have said, they are little heeded. And lo! we have fled from the Shadow to the last shores of Middle-earth, to find only that it is here before us!'

No light! No salvation from Evil! Coming to the lands of ME to only find that even the western shores were under the dominion of the Dark Lord.
Then …. Whom to fight? Whom to cause harm? WHY cause any harm at all?
I don’t think the coming of Men to the lands of ME was ever meant to be intended to doing any harm.
Despair is what Men had brought to ME, but not harm.

But then came the Noldor.

A few point here to clear:
1. Why did they come back to ME?
2. What did they bring?
3. What did they do?
4. What was the final result from their return?

To start with :

P.1/ WHY did they come back to ME?

From the Silmarillion, Chapter 7
Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

In those days, moreover, though the Valar knew indeed of the coming of Men that were to be, the Elves as yet knew naught of it; for Manwë had not revealed it to them. Bat Melkor spoke to them in secret of Mortal Men, seeing how the silence of the Valar might be twisted to evil. Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Ilúvatar; but now the whisper went among the Elves that Manwë held them captive, so that Men might come and supplant them in the kingdoms of Middle-earth, for the Valar saw that they might more easily sway this short-lived and weaker race, defrauding the Elves of the inheritance of Ilúvatar. Small truth was there in this, and little have the Valar ever prevailed to sway the wills of Men; but many of the Noldor believed, or half believed, the evil words.
Thus with lies and evil whisperings and false counsel Melkor kindled the hearts of the Noldor to strife; and of their quarrels came at length the end of the high days of Valinor and the evening of its ancient glory. For Fëanor now began openly to speak words of rebellion against the Valar, crying aloud that he would depart from Valinor back to the world without, and would deliver the Noldor from thraldom, if they would follow him.
It is obvious how strongly had the minds of the Noldor been poisoned by the lies of Melkor.
Lies or not…but they had achieved the aim! The Noldor were convinced they had to fight their ancient home back from both – Morgoth and Men!

So they went back to ME. They went there with the full, although wrong, belief that they were the lawful masters of those lands and that no other race should claim that right! They went back to ME as conquerors.

To me this “mood” seems much more harmful and leading to a far stronger detrimental effect than the grievous state of mind of Men!

tbc

Lhunithiliel

10-30-2003, 11:16 AM

in continuation...

p.2/ >>>> What did they bring to ME?

Many would say – the Noldor brought knowledge and lore… True! This cannot be denied! This could even be called that “light” Men were searching for!

Yet, following the story itself, what we witness is that they also brought :
>> quarrels
>> intolerance
>> clear desire to settle on the lands of ME as rightful masters without being too much co-operative with neither their kin nor with Men (at least at the beginning of their exile).
>> pursuit of their own aims – the Silmarilli – quite a selfish reason, yet highly harmful in itself being bound by an oath.

But also they brought with themselves one of the strongest “spells” ever cast in Arda – the Curse of Mandos.
And this, together with all the above stated points, was powerful enough as to do much more harm, hence have a far more detrimental effect!

p.3/ What did they do?

Here I’ll be brief . For not much comment needs the fact that they set ME on fire, leading destructive wars, involving in them all the races….

Pretty detrimental, don’t you agree?

Which leads me to the final of the above enlisted points.

p.4/ What was the final result from their return?

In one word: Destruction!
Destruction of lands, peoples, kingdoms.
Destruction of high achievements in knowledge, craft, lore – sadly, most of these created by themselves.
Destruction of moral and ethical notions, bringing to a strong alienation among the races of ME and in particular between the Firstborn and the Followers.

And if Men were involved in that destruction, and even if those, called “lesser” had their “share” in it all, that was still not imposed by them, but by the Noldor!
…. and the mortals that became entangled in their fate...
Detrimental effect? It is obvious! And caused it is by the actions of the Noldor - being the more powerful, the more learned but also being the initiators and the executors of strongly detrimental deeds.

To finalize this long post (I’m sorry!) I’d like to say to those who would counter me saying that I seem to find no positive effects from the presence of the Noldor – I do! The Noldor came to ME bringing a lot of everything and their impact therefore was far stronger.

But as they came bringing also the evil that already had marred them, this strong impact turned out to be ever more detrimental than having a final positive outcome.

Meaning that they proved to be more detrimental than lesser Men.
Which is the position of GoT

Arvedui

10-30-2003, 04:22 PM

The influence of Melkor over the race of Men was enormous … yet all they did was to flee from it in attempts to find light Now that is an interesting statement, for as far as I recollect, the only Men that sought westward for the light with a purpose for doing so, where those of the Three Houses!

A number of Men remained in the East, under the dark shadow of Morgoth. We know these people mostly as Easterlings. Some of them went westward after a time, and joined the Elves. The most famous, or rather: infamous, of them were Ulfang and his sons. I do not think that I will have to repeat what I wrote in the opening post?

And ever since, the Easterlings have kept their alliance with Morgoth, and later his servant Sauron. From them came the Balchoth and the Wainriders.
And we have the Haradrim, who were just as jolly as the Easterlings.
And let us not forget the best example of them all: The Nazgûl. The majority of them came also from the lesser houses.
men had precious little to do with Doriath and nothing to do with Gondolin. Really?
From The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Doriath:
Then he cried aloud in the wilderness, heedless of any ears, and he cursed the pitiless land; and standing at last upon a high rock he looked towards Gondolin and called in a great voice: 'Turgon, Turgon, remember the Fen of Serech! O Turgon, will you not hear in your hidden halls?' But there was no sound save the wind in the dry grasses. 'Even so they hissed in Serech at the sunset,' he said; and as he spoke the sun went behind the Mountains of Shadow, and a darkness fell about him, and the wind ceased, and there was silence in the waste.
Yet there were ears that heard the words that Húrin spoke, and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the north; and Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the Encircling Mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved.
And who was it that brought the Nauglamír to Menegroth? The same Húrin.
Now Húrin came from one of the Three Houses, and his actions were caused by the bewitchement from Morgoth.
Why could he have been bewitched?
Because he was imprisoned.
How did he get imprisoned?
He was defeated, but not killed in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
This happened because the armies of Morgoth prevented the Eastern and Western Armies of Beleriand to meet and join forces, and a large part of the reason for that was the treachery of Ulfang and his sons.

Lhunithiliel

10-30-2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Arvedui
Now that is an interesting statement, for as far as I recollect, the only Men that sought westward for the light with a purpose for doing so, where those of the Three Houses!
The first to come to ME. Yes - those from the Three Houses.
Can you prove the later commers had other reason to follow?

A number of Men remained in the East, under the dark shadow of Morgoth. We know these people mostly as Easterlings. Some of them went westward after a time, and joined the Elves.
Why do you think they did so?
1-st "Why" - Why did they come to ME?
2-nd "Why" - Why did they join the Elves?

And who was it that brought the Nauglamír to Menegroth? The same Húrin.
Now Húrin came from one of the Three Houses, and his actions were caused by the bewitchement from Morgoth.
Why could he have been bewitched?
Because he was imprisoned.
How did he get imprisoned?
He was defeated, but not killed in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
This happened because the armies of Morgoth prevented the Eastern and Western Armies of Beleriand to meet and join forces, and a large part of the reason for that was the treachery of Ulfang and his sons.
And WHO was the initiator of the worst conflicts and wars in Beleriand? - the Noldor.
Who involved Ulfang and his men in a war? - the Noldor.

You see, Men were most actively involved in all the actions of the Elves since the coming of the Noldor exiles. For good or bad, in peace or in war - they were made allies or/and enemies to the Elves because of the Noldor.
So ... even if Men had their detrimental influence upon the historical development of ME, it's only a consequence. The roots lie with the Noldor exiles - their ambitions, their oath, the curse they brought with them ....

Arvedui

10-30-2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
The first to come to ME. Yes - those from the Three Houses.
Can you prove the later commers had other reason to follow?

Yes:
The Silmarillion; Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin:
To Men Morgoth feigned pity, if any would hearken to his messages, saying that their woes came only of their servitude to the rebel Noldor, but at the hands of the rightful Lord of Middle-earth they would get honour and a just reward of valour, if they would leave rebellion. But few men of the Three Houses of the Edain would give ear to him, not even were they brought to the torment of Angband. Therefore Morgoth pursued them with hatred; and he sent his messengers over the mountains.
It is told that at this time the Swarthy Men came first into Beleriand. Some were already secretly under the dominion of Morgoth, and came at his call; but not all, for the rumour of Beleriand, of its lands and waters, of its wars and riches, went now far and wide, and the wandering feet of Men were ever set westward in those days. These Men were short and broad, long and strong in the arm; their skins were swart or sallow, and their hair was dark as were their eyes. Their houses were many, and some had greater liking for the Dwarves of the mountains than for the Elves. But Maedhros, knowing the weakness of the Noldor and the Edain, whereas the pits of Angband seemed to hold store inexhaustible and ever-renewed, made alliance with these new-come Men, and gave his friendship to the greatest of their chieftains, Bór and Ulfang. And Morgoth was well content; for this was as he had designed.

Why do you think they did so?
1-st "Why" - Why did they come to ME?
2-nd "Why" - Why did they join the Elves?
The answers are all in the quote above.
Who involved Ulfang and his men in a war?
See above quote.
And WHO was the initiator of the worst conflicts and wars in Beleriand?
Morgoth!

Lhunithiliel

10-30-2003, 06:06 PM

Hehe, Arvedui, we two seem to have a personal debate here! :)
I might lose it...Yet, please let me use the same quote ...Only I'd like to underline some other words:

To Men Morgoth feigned pity, if any would hearken to his messages, saying that their woes came only of their servitude to the rebel Noldor, but at the hands of the rightful Lord of Middle-earth they would get honour and a just reward of valour, if they would leave rebellion. But few men of the Three Houses of the Edain would give ear to him, not even were they brought to the torment of Angband. Therefore Morgoth pursued them with hatred; and he sent his messengers over the mountains.
It is told that at this time the Swarthy Men came first into Beleriand. Some were already secretly under the dominion of Morgoth, and came at his call; but not all, for the rumour of Beleriand, of its lands and waters, of its wars and riches, went now far and wide, and the wandering feet of Men were ever set westward in those days. These Men were short and broad, long and strong in the arm; their skins were swart or sallow, and their hair was dark as were their eyes. Their houses were many, and some had greater liking for the Dwarves of the mountains than for the Elves. But Maedhros, knowing the weakness of the Noldor and the Edain, whereas the pits of Angband seemed to hold store inexhaustible and ever-renewed, made alliance with these new-come Men, and gave his friendship to the greatest of their chieftains, Bór and Ulfang. And Morgoth was well content; for this was as he had designed.

So...in my interpretation this same quote proves one of the arguments that I already developed in my previous posts. And I did not ask the two "Why"-questions for the purpose of just asking! ;)
The Noldor exiles brought much lore, knowledge and skills - such as had not been seen in ME before them.
The kingdoms they created, the riches that were accumulated based on the lore and skills the Noldor exiles brought to ME were a powerful incentive for other peoples to come to their lands. That was the reason that brought most of those who followed the first representatives of the Three Houses of men.
Quite a natural process, I'd say. It's called migration.

It is true that some of men brought evil with them, having been already enslaved completely by Melkor. But far not all! (read the above quote! ;) )
Besides, their powers were not to be compared with those of the Noldor on any possible level! Therefore, their impact would have been not sufficiant enough IF they were not involved in the matters of the Noldor. (as the last underlined part in the above quote shows).

Now... as for the argument that it was Morgoth who initiated the worst conflicts in Beleriand ... I am somehow reluctant to agree.

Where was he at the time the exiles entered Beleriand? - Well hidden in fear of the new come light over his once dark and "cozy" realm.
What were the first serious "steps" of the Noldor exiles in Beleriand? - seek war with Morgoth.
Why?
For the Silmarilli of course.

Of course Melkor was the bearer of Evil! That was his "doom". But speaking in particular of the wars in Beleriand the story tells us that the Noldor were the initiators. They had to free ME from Morgoth! And those from the House of Feanor had to take back their precious stones!
So....it was they who imposed war right from the beginning!
Not to even mention that the Noldor exiles showed not too much friendliness and co-operation with their kin.

And to finish this post - Let me ask another question.

On whom, do you think, the influence of Morgoth was greater?

Eriol

10-30-2003, 06:07 PM

Well, the buck has to stop somewhere. If we go far back enough in our analysis the ultimate "blame" must be held by Eru ;). I think that free will and personal responsibility can't be overlooked, and the Fall of Gondolin was mostly a result (intended or not) of the actions of three persons: Húrin, Turgon, and Maeglin (as well as Morgoth, obviously :)). None of them is "of the lesser houses of Men". The Doom of Mandos is much more clearly operative in that event than the Nirnaeth; and the Doom of Mandos is to be accounted as a Noldorin evil.

But I don't think that this matter can be cleared by numbering specific evils and comparing them... Tolkien himself, and the hypothetical (and biased in favor of the Noldor) author of the tales, compares them as similar in scope and nature. Who are we to discuss with them?

(I still owe you that quote from a Letter :(. I'll only get to my book of Letters tomorrow night.)

Whatever evils the lesser houses of men may have committed (and as I said, I don't think Doriath and Gondolin may be counted among them), they are comparable to the evils of the Noldor. And yet the Noldor knew much more and were much wiser. So much greater then was their evil.

Arvedui

10-30-2003, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Hehe, Arvedui, we two seem to have a personal debate here! :)
I might lose it...
You very well might...;)
The kingdoms they created, the riches that were accumulated based on the lore and skills the Noldor exiles brought to ME were a powerful incentive for other peoples to come to their lands. That was the reason that brought most of those who followed the first representatives of the Three Houses of men.
Doesn't sound very detrimental to me!
It is true that some of men brought evil with them, having been already enslaved completely by Melkor.
I'm glad that we agree. Some, but not all.
Where was he at the time the exiles entered Beleriand? - Well hidden in fear of the new come light over his once dark and "cozy" realm.
What were the first serious "steps" of the Noldor exiles in Beleriand? - seek war with Morgoth.
Why?
For the Silmarilli of course.

And why did they seek war over the Silmarilli?
Because Morgoth had deceived them and ensnared them. Killed their King, and managed to bring strife between the Noldor and the Valar. Thats why! If it wasn't for Morgoth, then maybe the Noldor wouldn't have come to Beleriand at all. And not with any curse hanging over their heads.
But speaking in particular of the wars in Beleriand the story tells us that the Noldor were the initiators. They had to free ME from Morgoth!
And how can that be detrimental to the good of the other peoples?
On whom, do you think, the influence of Morgoth was greater?
i think that should be obvious: Men. More precise: Men of the lesser houses, Easterlings, Haradrim and others that remained in the east, while the people of the Houses of Hador, Beor, and Haleth remained steadfast in their fight against Morgoth.

Lhunithiliel

10-30-2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Arvedui
You very well might...;)
But let me at least try to defend myself! ;) :)

Doesn't sound very detrimental to me!
Because you seem to not be paying attention to my words!
Those Men - most of them - came to Beleriand NOT with intentions to bring wars and conflicts! They were attracted by the achievements of the peoples that had developed and created those riches. And who were they? - the Noldor. Thus,
...the mortals ... became entangled in their fate...
And the fate of the Noldor was doomed to bring disaster for the disaster they had caused in Aman! So, Men became entangled in this and their detrimental deeds were more a consequence of the above fact, than of their own will.

And why did they seek war over the Silmarilli?
Because Morgoth had deceived them and ensnared them. Killed their King, and managed to bring strife between the Noldor and the Valar. Thats why! If it wasn't for Morgoth, then maybe the Noldor wouldn't have come to Beleriand at all. And not with any curse hanging over their heads.
I am glad we agree on this! ;) However it does not counter my argument.
Have I denied it? On the conrary! Read p.1 of my very first post!

And how can that be detrimental to the good of the other peoples?
How detrimental does it seem to you to unleash wars that finally brought to a complete chaos and destruction?

i think that should be obvious: Men. More precise: Men of the lesser houses, Easterlings, Haradrim and others that remained in the east, while the people of the Houses of Hador, Beor, and Haleth remained steadfast in their fight against Morgoth.
Wrong!
Elves and the Noldor in particular were the first victims of Morgoth. Much more powerful was his influence on them if they rebelled against the Valar-Gods themselves!!!!

Gothmog

10-30-2003, 07:38 PM

A first post just to look at some points. I will later answer certain points brought up by our opponents.

As Arvedui has show, the problems for the peoples of Middle-earth started soon after the awakening of Men. In fact they started long before this. However, we are discussing which of only two were the most detrimental to the rest of the peoples of Middle-earth, the Noldor or the lesser houses of Men.

Arvedui has given some views on Men, let us take a look at what the Noldor did.

When Melkor did harm to Valinor and left, he came to Middle-earth to take control of it and enslave the peoples thereof. These were the Quendi who remained in Middle-earth, the Dwarves and the soon to come Men. At this time there was in Middle-earth only Melian the Maia living in Doriath who knew anything about Melkor and none who could successfully oppose him. When Melkor returned he unleashed his hoards upon Beleriand and had almost complete control of the land. Only in Doriath and the haven's of Cirdan was there any resistance left. The Dwarves, although a warring race were still no match for Melkor and his armies.

This situation lasted until the coming of the Noldor from Aman. They gave for a time freedom to the peoples of Middle-earth by confining Melkor in the north for most of the time until the breaking of the siege of Angband. When Men awoke Melkor became aware of them and seduced to his service, either by going to them himself or sending a powerful lieutenant as an embassy.

Arvedui has shown the results of this so we will go to the point where Finrod finds the people of Beor. These are of the few who tried to escape from the darkness. So what is detrimental to the peoples of Middle-earth in this.
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed: Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion (iii)

So the detrimental acts of the Noldor were to be the best possible weapon to keep Morgoth at bay, raise Men to their fullest achievable stature and transfer or infuse in to Mankind the noblest Elf-strain. So how could the Noldorin exiles be considered more detrimental than the lesser houses of Men who fought for Melkor against the good of Middle-earth.

More to follow soon. :)

Gothmog

10-30-2003, 11:12 PM

Ok some answers.Eriol
The bias inherent in the "little that is told of Men" may be shown by the famous words a bit above that quote:
Of course there is some bias in the writings of the Atani. They were in Tolkien's words – "Men, or the best elements in Mankind" and "In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature". So they are going to write from the perspective of those who had been given great gifts of knowledge and wisdom.Eriol
In many instances there is a comparison between the Fall of Men, addressed by Arvedui in his quotes of the Athrabeth, and the "Fall" of the Noldor. I remember one Letter in which Tolkien speaks of it;
I agree that comparisons can be drawn between the Falls of Men and Noldor. However, we are debating on the results of these Falls in Middle-earth. The Noldor from their fall did much good in ME by battling against Melkor. The lesser houses of Men on the other hand did not. Many of them remained loyal to Melkor and later to Sauron and fought against Elves, Men and Dwarves.Eriol
Who is more to be blamed? Who had more opportunity to avoid "drinking the bitter cup that Melkor had prepared for them?" The children of Men, or the wise Noldor?
I ask you who is to be blamed for this? Was it perhaps the Valar who allowed Melkor to corrupt the wisdom of the Noldor and the peace of Aman or was it Eru who allowed Melkor to corrupt Men while under his care.Eriol
The record shows that the two kinds of evil were of the same magnitude; a biased record shows that. The Noldor had much more opportunities (they "should have known better") to avoid falling for Morgoth’s lies, which were at the base of both evils. And so their weakness was proved to be more detrimental to the good of the peoples of Middle-Earth.
Melkor was going to return to Middle-earth soon any way. The only defence that ME had was a people that knew enough about him to fight his successfully for a time without being so great as to pose a real threat to him too soon. This is what the Noldor did while also raising Men to their highest possible stature.Lhunithiliel
Lesser Men - say our opponents. In what way? Just because they were overwhelmed by grief and finding no escape from the “shadow”?
Grief however did not make them be destructive. The influence of Melkor over the race of Men was enormous … yet all they did was to flee from it in attempts to find light – the light of the West as they had heard about from their scarce communications with the Avari in the lands of ME.
Yet those who fled from the shadow became the greater houses of the Atani. The lesser houses were those who for the most part did not flee. They stayed loyal to Melkor and fought for him against the Atani.Lhunithiliel
It is obvious how strongly had the minds of the Noldor been poisoned by the lies of Melkor.
Lies or not…but they had achieved the aim! The Noldor were convinced they had to fight their ancient home back from both – Morgoth and Men!
Yes they came back for less than noble reasons. But while that were in ME they did what no other could do.Lhunithiliel
Many would say – the Noldor brought knowledge and lore… True! This cannot be denied! This could even be called that “light” Men were searching for!
It was. As Tolkien himself said.Myths Transformed
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'. This far out weighed the minor troubles that they brought or the ignoble reasons that caused them to do what was needed for the greater good of Arda and the other peoples of ME.Lhunithiliel
Here I’ll be brief . For not much comment needs the fact that they set ME on fire, leading destructive wars, involving in them all the races….
They did not set ME on fire. Melkor had already done this. Only in Doriath or the havens of Cirdan was there any safety for any in Beleriand. This was the situation when Fëanor and his band landed on the shores of ME. It was only the intervention of the Noldor that changed this at all.Lhunithiliel
.4/ What was the final result from their return?
Our esteemed opponents would have you believe that the destruction of Beleriand was due to the Noldor. Well, powerful as were the Noldor, they did not have anywhere near that power. However, Melkor Did. Myths Transformed
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. Had the Noldor not come to Middle-earth then the Valar would have had two choices.

1. Take on Melkor in direct confrontation and watch the destruction of All of Arda.

2. Allow Melkor free rein in Middle-earth until they felt that he could be defeated without risk to Arda. (this would mean that all the peoples of Middle-earth would be left under the control of Melkor).Lhunithiliel
But as they came bringing also the evil that already had marred them, this strong impact turned out to be ever more detrimental than having a final positive outcome.
This is incorrect. The Noldor did not bring the evil that had marred them. That evil was Melkor and he came before them. The Noldor Followed the evil to fight it.Lhunithiliel
How detrimental does it seem to you to unleash wars that finally brought to a complete chaos and destruction?
The Noldor did not unleash wars that brought to a complete chaos and destruction. The Noldor prevented such a result from war with Melkor. Had any but the Noldor been involved then either they would have been too weak to halt Melkor even for a short time or so powerful that Melkor would have destroyed not only the small area of Beleriand but the whole of Arda and all in it.

Finduilas

10-31-2003, 12:04 AM

Some points (not full though).

Because Morgoth had deceived them and ensnared them. Killed their King, and managed to bring strife between the Noldor and the Valar. Thats why! If it wasn't for Morgoth, then maybe the Noldor wouldn't have come to Beleriand at all. And not with any curse hanging over their heads.

But tell me would there be as much grief as then if Morgoth hadn't come at all? It was Melkor who proceeded the entire 'evil' procedure of destruction and hence the question is who used His evil more and who fell under Morgoth's power more easily and with worse consequences? In other words, who was the one who was more influanced by Melkor in his existance?

Let's look at the question from another point of view. What is the greatest 'weapon' in the world? What is the most dangerous weapon? Is it force? I don't think so.
The most detrimental 'weapon' is the knowledge, the experience and greater thought. In other words, the intelect. The one who owns the 'better weapon' is the one who can make more damages. And who provided ME with lore and knowledge? The Noldor. As in real life, the great knowledge of the human race may kill us all one day (regarding WW2, and the atomic bombs), so can the endless and growing knowledge of the Noldor destroy the living life on ME. If we leave behind the wars the Noldor caused (as well as the curse) and concentrate on their enormous knowledge and common sense, we may be terrified by the power they posses.

Ravenna

10-31-2003, 01:43 AM

I think we can all agree that all war is detrimental, however we should also look at the motives for war.

The Noldor fought to restrain, and hopefully prevent Morgoth from overrunning Middle Earth and enslaving the peoples therein. They provided a valuable bulwark against the depredations of the enemy, until such time as the Valar felt able to take the final step to remove him. This, whilst admittedly bringing the inevitable tragedies of war, at least was done to iimprove the lives of the peoples on Middle Earth in the long run.

And the lesser Houses of Men? What did they go to war for?
Why to aid in the subjugation of the peoples of Middle Earth, to help fulfil Morgoth's insatiable greed for power, presumbly they were also promised a measure of power andcx wealth for themselves too.

Our opponents appear to suggest that without the Noldor there would have been no war in Middle Earth, and that therefore any detrimental results are purely of Noldorin origin. Are we then to assume that without the Noldor none of the other peoples would have resisted Morgoth at all? I find that very hard to believe. They may not have been strong enough to be sucessful, but they would have tried.
Morgoth was not going to leave anyone free and happy if he could enslave them, so war was inevitable from the moment he returned to Middle Earth, the Noldor simply unified resistance to him and strengthened those who would oppose him.

Much too has been made of the fact that men became 'entangled ' in the fates of the Noldor. True enough, but they had free choice as to which side they espoused. The lesser houses chose the side bent upon destruction, a much more detrimental choice which helped to prolong the wars and therefore caused a much longer period of damage than may otherwise have occurred.

Lhunithiliel

10-31-2003, 10:04 AM

Ancalagon Yet those who fled from the shadow became the greater houses of the Atani. The lesser houses were those who for the most part did not flee. They stayed loyal to Melkor and fought for him against the Atani.
Some! Not most men of the "lesser" were Morgoth's allies.
What detrimental effect do you see in the simple fact of peoples' migration to better lands with better opportunities for better lives? Only some of them were Morgoth's "spies" but far not most of them!
Now...what did these "lesser" Men bring to the flourishing Beleriand?
Did they bring knowledge, lore and skills higher than those of the Noldor? Hardly! And it is through knowledge that one becomes powerful enough to rule, influence and alter the course of events.
The Noldor had that power. Not the "lesser" Men!
So, how then to compare the detrimental effect of the "lesser" to that of the Noldor in favour of the "lesser"?

Ancalagon This far out weighed the minor troubles that they brought or the ignoble reasons that caused them to do what was needed for the greater good of Arda and the other peoples of ME.
MINOR TROUBLES ??????????? :eek:

First of all, the Noldor did not return to ME with any "noble" cause. Unfortunately and sadly, being already deeply corrupted by Melkor's lies, some (the House of Feanor) went to ME in pursuit of the Silmarilli and seeking revenge for the death of their King and for the rape of their precious stones. Those from the other Noldor houses went to ME with the clear purpose of settling there and of establishing their own kingdoms (as they did). ME was the land of their awakening. Long before it had been taken from them by Morgoth - Noldor's worst enemy, and now seemed to be threatened by a new race - Men, which was coming to claim rights over the Elves' homeland (this is what at that time the Noldor were convinced in!). They had to re- gain their rights over that land and fight it back from Morgoth. They returned as conquerers. They returned with the clear intentions of fighting.
As for Men, quite some time (310 years) had passed before the Noldor first met them! You wouldn't say that the Noldor developed their society in Beleriand for the good of all races! They established and developed their realms for their own good! All the rest had to take the existance and the power of the Noldorin kingdoms into consideration and either co-operate as allies in friendship or be claimed as enemies of the Noldor and be at constant war with the most powerful nation in ME.
I'd call such type of political relations "assimillation".
And even though at first it was working for the good of Men, then it turned out a real disaster. Men had been assimillated into the Noldor societies, they had been given much and thus had been made allies to the Noldor. But in times of war, Men had to "return the favour". And they perished on the battlefields of Beleriand defending NOT their own interests, but mostly those of the Noldor. Of course, I admit that those were mostly Edain.

But, if you say that the "lesser" were Morgoth's allies, then how come that many of them still fought and died on the side of the Noldor? Because not all of them deserted the battlefields as the "famous" Ulfang and his people.
On the other hand, even accepting that many of the "lesser" were in Morgoth's service, how to explain then that they fled back to their lands far from the conflicts of the two major powers that were at war in ME - Melkor and the Noldor, not wishing to fight for any of these two?. They committed treachery to the Noldor - yes. But they did the same to their "true Master" - as our opponents want us to believe that Melkor was their true Master and that him they served.

All this leads to a conclusion that the "lesser" Men could not have an essential detrimental impact of the events and the development of ME, because:

>> they were not powerful enough to influence the course of historical events in ME
>> they had not enough knowledge
>> they did not have well organized social structures which could exert certain serious influence

All the above the Noldor had!
Therefore their impact was far greater. And I doubt it that any could claim that the negative impact was less than the positive one! The force worked equally to both directions!
That is why, the Noldor had a far greater detrimental impact on the events in ME than the "lesser".

tbc

Lhunithiliel

10-31-2003, 10:10 AM

Now... about who set Beleriand on fire.

Our opponents say - it was Melkor and the creatures he had bread and released over all the territory.
That was, as Gothmog said, the situation when the Noldor returned to ME. Yes, Morgoth was a ful master of ME at the start of the First Age. But he was seriously "desturbed" in his own dark "bliss" for two major reasons:
- the coming of the Noldor in pursuit of him
- the rising of the Sun and the Moon

Now let's remember the reasons that drove the Noldor to ME! (I have commented on this above and in my previous posts).
Just and only for the fact that they returned, ME was 'doomed" to be involved in war conflicts. It was absolutely inevitable!
And it turned out exactly so! The First Age, as is well known, was the age of most wars and almost never ceasing , battles, conflicts and for most part - unstable peace.

FIVE major wars we witness in the First age!

1.Dagor-nuin-Giliath – year 1 of the FA (within the first 10 days from the coming of the Noldor!) - It is the first war Fëanor fights against his most bitter enemy – Morgoth at the first days of the coming of his host into ME.
It is held in Mithrim and the lands east across Ered Wethrin.

2. Dagor Aglareb - year 75 of FA[/u] - pretty soon after the first major conflict!
Even though considered as an act of defence on behalf of the Noldor against the attacks of Melkor's creatures, it is still their increasing power that made Melkor do that move!
The outcome this time :
Yet the Noldor could not capture Angband, nor could they regain the Silmarils; and war never wholly ceased in all that time of the Siege, for Morgoth devised new evils, and ever and anon he would make trial of his enemies.
To me such an outcome seems quite "unpleasant" and bearing a serious threat for the peace and good of ME!

3. Dagor-Bragollach – the winter of 455 – the spring of 456 of the FA - a major war conflict.
As the Noldor had held Morgoth under siege for almost 200 years,
....Morgoth had long prepared his force in secret, while ever the malice of his heart grew greater, and his hatred of the Noldor more bitter; and he desired not only to end his foes but to destroy also and defile the lands that they had taken and made fair.
Ironically, the good the Noldor did and achieved, brought eventually to a detrimental result - another devastating war!

At this time "lesser" Men were still not involved in any of these events. Therefore one could hardly find their detrimental effect upon ME!

And detrimental those wars and conflicts between the Noldor and Melkor were!

- The Siege of Angband is thus ended and Morgoth disperses most of his foes.
- The Noldor oppose Morgoth’s armies at the cost of great losses and many of the Noldorian best warriors and princes perish in battles.
- Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor is slain by Morgoth.
- Sauron, first appears as the“greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth”.
He takes Minas Tirith and makes it a watchtower for Morgoth, “a stronghold of evil, and a menace”.
- Dorthonion is lost.
- All Hithlum – ravaged.
- for aiding the Noldor , the Atani become persecuted by Morgoth.
- A lot of Noldor and Sindar are taken captive to Angband and tortured and “forcing them to use their skill and their knowledge in the service of Morgoth”.
- Morgoth’s spies spread out and do even more damage, establishing discord and malice in the relations among elves and men of different regions and between the peoples of Men and Elves.

This war is lost with a bitter defeat of the allied forces of Elves and the Edain and it is followed by dark years of despair under the rule of Melkor over the ME.

Pretty detrimental, don't you agree?!

4. Nirnaeth Arnoediad – spring of year 471 FA -
less than 20 years only from the previous war!
Will the Noldor ever learn ?!!!

After the recovering of one of the Silmarils, Feanor’s sons and in particular Maedhros, believe that Morgoth, inspite all his powers, is not undefeatable. So, they start forming a new alliance for a new war against him.

Nevertheless, the fact that a Silmaril is in possession of other Elves (at that time Thingol, King of Doriath has it), arises constant conflicts between the Noldor and the other elven peoples in Beleriand.
However, with all the forces he has been able to gather, Maedhros resolves to assault Angband

But the Noldor wronged again! They involved the races of ME into another hopeless war! The result was disastrous - and all, unfortunately mostly for not well thought of startegy and lack of co-operation among the Noldor themselves!

That was the "infamous" war where the Easterlings commited their treachery. But before we blame this event for the losing the war, let's remember :
- the initial purpose for starting the war itself
- the lack of co-operation between the Noldorin forces!

Those were far more important reasons for losing the war than the treachery of the Easterlings!

Now, as a grevious result from the wrong war policy of the Noldor, Beleriand was almost ruined.
But still the last war was to come - the one that practically can be called a calamity - the War of Wrath!

Now...all these wars had perhaps a good reason - the Noldor really wanted to stop and diminish Melkor's influence and presence in ME. But the results of these wars were far too detrimental and much more harm they brought than good!
A fact!

That is why I say that the Noldor were to blame for the devastating war conflicts in ME, thus having a far greater detrimental impact than the "lesser" Men.

And finally, I would like to see this debate prevented from "What if" - scenarios. Let's stick to the story as it is. :)

Eriol

10-31-2003, 10:59 PM

Here is the quote I promised from the Letters. The famous Letter 131, to Milton Waldman:

So, proceeding, the Elves have a fall, before their 'history' can become storial. (The first fall of Man, for reasons explained, nowhere appears -- Men do not come on stage untill all that is long past, and there is only a rumour that for a while they fell under the domination of the Enemy and that some repented). The main body of the tale, the Silmarillion proper, is about the fall of the most gifted kindred of the Elves...

[A long portion of the letter then explains the Silmarillion proper to Milton Waldman; I assume we are all acquainted with that book :here D. Of course, Tolkien speaks of Fëanor and his oath in a bad light. But proceeding to the point at hand...]

... The first fruit of their fall is war in Paradise, the slaying of Elves by Elves, and this and their evil oath dogs all their later heroism, generating treracheries and undoing all victories.

My point, as I stated it when I mentioned that quote without giving it, is that Tolkien compares the Noldorin exile with the Fall of Men.

Now to some other matters.

Originally posted by Gothmog
I ask you who is to be blamed for this? Was it perhaps the Valar who allowed Melkor to corrupt the wisdom of the Noldor and the peace of Aman or was it Eru who allowed Melkor to corrupt Men while under his care.

"A Balrog... now I understand. And I am already weary..."

:D ;)

As I see it, Gothmog, and Arvedui, neglect the role of personal responsibility when assigning blame. If we disregard personal responsibility, all blame must be laid at Eru's door; and the debate is tied :). If we accept personal responsibility, on the other hand, the Oath of Fëanor, the slaying at Alqualondë, and such, are to be considered as faults of the Noldor; not of the Valar, or of Morgoth, or of Eru. No one forced Fëanor to swear his oath; not even Eru did that, if we accept Free Will. By the same token, the treason of Ulfang is Ulfang's responsibility.

My point is that we must ascribe blame according to responsibility; thus, to ascribe the Fall of Gondolin as a responsibility of the lesser houses of Men strikes me as odd. That is just an example; Doriath is another. I'll add some examples at the end of the post, some neglected issues (so far) in this debate. But as I said in my first post, I don't think this kind of question may be answered by a tallying of faults.

And I think our opponents are lucky that it is so; Lhun's posts already point at a greater number of Noldorin faults, and I'll add some. Tallying faults would result in a much greater number of faults for the Noldor; to be frank, surely this can be ascribed to the fact that the story is "elf-centered" and, quite possibly, many grievous acts were committed by the lesser houses of Men that we are not aware of. As I said, our opponents are lucky that we are not tallying faults; we can't very well speculate on hypothetical scenarios without hard data, and the hard data points at the Noldor as the culprits.

Indeed I think the method to be used is to accept that the two evils are comparable (as Tolkien compared them) and to see who had the most chance of avoiding the evil. If two people steal bread, we are more lenient towards the one who is starving than towards the one who is well fed. And according to that criterion, the Noldor were much better fed -- in all accounts.

And now for the neglected matter: the 2nd and 3rd ages. Sauron was doing his mischief, oppressing Men (only the lesser houses of Men, by the way ;) ) all around. What were the Noldor doing? Why, they were falling for the old ruse -- again! Were they dumb? Were they blind? Were they unwise? No. They were smart, far-seeing, and proud of their wisdom. And again they were indulging in sorcery, in "magic" of the not-so-safe kind. They were making Rings. Ah, they had great reasons for doing so... but still the path to Hell is paved with good intentions, and those Rings proved themselves to be the most detrimental objects in those Ages. Let me quote Tolkien again (Letter 181):

... the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change: as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favourite power. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from art), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair. The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change.

So, even the Three Rings, though unsullied and good in a limited way, are still the result of the Elvish "weakness", and the desire for "power" (as opposed to "art"). Those acquainted with Tolkien's Letters will know that Tolkien's ideas of the desire for "Power" are not very complimentary :). He is criticizing the Elven-smiths, quite harshly. And well he might; for those guys "should have known better!".

If we consider all the Rings as a group, we see how harmful they were. And at that time the lesser houses of Men were being oppressed, by both Sauron and Númenóreans. One could make a case that the Númenórean oppression of the lesser houses of Men is a result of the Noldorin effect on the Three Houses of the Edain... I won't make that case, though, because I still think that we should focus on personal responsibility here, and the Númenórean oppression, though fomented by their glory, which is a result of Noldorin acts, is not directly attributable to the Noldor.

The lesser houses of Men were crushed by everybody in the latter ages. They definitely were "worse fed". And so I submit that the Noldor have a (much) greater responsibility to bear in the history of Middle-Earth. They brought good, but they also brought evil; and they should have known better. Though the evils were comparable in scope and magnitude, the Noldor had better reasons to avoid them; and thus a greater responsibility.

Gothmog

11-01-2003, 08:29 PM

Lhunithiliel
Now let's remember the reasons that drove the Noldor to ME! (I have commented on this above and in my previous posts).
Just and only for the fact that they returned, ME was 'doomed" to be involved in war conflicts. It was absolutely inevitable!
And it turned out exactly so! The First Age, as is well known, was the age of most wars and almost never ceasing , battles, conflicts and for most part - unstable peace.
Our opponents claim that the Noldor were more detrimental to the other peoples of ME because of the wars of the Jewels. Well let us look at how things would have been if the Noldor had not returned to ME. FIVE major wars we witness in the First age! Yes. But we must look beyond this.

Melkor had done his harm in Aman and could not stay there nor did he want to. His realm was ME. So he returned to subjugate that land. We will be kind to the Valar and assume that even without the Noldor returning they still make the effort to provide light to ME by way of the Sun and the Moon.

So then a closer look at some of the wars.
1.Dagor-nuin-Giliath – year 1 of the FA (within the first 10 days from the coming of the Noldor!) - It is the first war Fëanor fights against his most bitter enemy – Morgoth at the first days of the coming of his host into ME.
It is held in Mithrim and the lands east across Ered Wethrin.
How was it that Melkor was able to have such a force ready to battle Fëanor's host only 10 days from the coming of the Noldor? If the Noldor were the cause of the problem then it would have taken Melkor far longer to have an army ready at that place. Melkor was already fighting the Elves of Beleriand and winning.2. Dagor Aglareb - year 75 of FA - pretty soon after the first major conflict!
Even though considered as an act of defence on behalf of the Noldor against the attacks of Melkor's creatures, it is still their increasing power that made Melkor do that move!
Yes it is in fact very soon after when you consider that the Sun and the Moon were still in the sky. So the light was only a very temporary pause to the designs of Melkor. And it is not the increasing power that made Melkor do that move but the fact that the Noldor were standing in the way of those designs.The outcome this time :

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet the Noldor could not capture Angband, nor could they regain the Silmarils; and war never wholly ceased in all that time of the Siege, for Morgoth devised new evils, and ever and anon he would make trial of his enemies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To me such an outcome seems quite "unpleasant" and bearing a serious threat for the peace and good of ME!
What Peace was there? No Noldor no peace. The havens of Cirdan would have fallen quickly and even Doriath could not have held out for long against Melkor. Melian was powerful but she was only One Maia. Melkor was Vala and had other Maiar working for him.3. Dagor-Bragollach – the winter of 455 – the spring of 456 of the FA - a major war conflict.
As the Noldor had held Morgoth under siege for almost 200 years,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
....Morgoth had long prepared his force in secret, while ever the malice of his heart grew greater, and his hatred of the Noldor more bitter; and he desired not only to end his foes but to destroy also and defile the lands that they had taken and made fair.
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Ironically, the good the Noldor did and achieved, brought eventually to a detrimental result - another devastating war!
For 200 years Beleriand had peace that would not have existed had the Noldor not been there. Melkor would have increased his hold on ME and made it more and more difficult to remove him later without the destruction of Arda. The Siege of Angband is thus ended and Morgoth disperses most of his foes. And he can finally continue with the war he started before the coming of the Noldor. The Noldor oppose Morgoth's armies at the cost of great losses and many of the Noldorian best warriors and princes perish in battles. Giving their lives in the ME in that defence of Beleriand. Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor is slain by Morgoth. Trying to defeat Melkor. Sauron, first appears as the"greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth". Sauron had been corrupted by Melkor far earlier and seems to have done much before this.The Silmarillion: Of the Enemies
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, of Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself.
So while this may have been the first time he was named it certainly was not the first time he was involved in the conflict. Dorthonion is lost. Dorthonion was Melkor's before the coming of the Noldor. Almost every part of Beleriand was. All Hithlum - ravaged. See above. for aiding the Noldor , the Atani become persecuted by Morgoth. Not so. Those three houses of Men that became The Atani were already persecuted by Melkor and his followers because they fled from servitude to him in the East. A lot of Noldor and Sindar are taken captive to Angband and tortured and "forcing them to use their skill and their knowledge in the service of Morgoth". How many of the Sindar would have been free had the Noldor not kept Melkor captive in the North for so long? None!!! In fact this would have happened, and did happen, when Melkor was unopposed. Morgoth's spies spread out and do even more damage, establishing discord and malice in the relations among elves and men of different regions and between the peoples of Men and Elves. Of course they did. It was the only way that he had to defeat the armies opposing him. Had the Noldor not been there these different peoples would have been slaves of Meklor.This war is lost with a bitter defeat of the allied forces of Elves and the Edain and it is followed by dark years of despair under the rule of Melkor over the ME.

Pretty detrimental, don't you agree?!
No. Since without the Noldor the dark years of despair would have started far sooner (just after Melkor returned to ME) and would have continued for far longer. The Three houses of the Atani would have come in to Beleriand to find that the dark master they fled was already there and in control. How long would they have survived? Not long I think.Now, as a grevious result from the wrong war policy of the Noldor, Beleriand was almost ruined.
But still the last war was to come - the one that practically can be called a calamity - the War of Wrath!
Now...all these wars had perhaps a good reason - the Noldor really wanted to stop and diminish Melkor's influence and presence in ME. But the results of these wars were far too detrimental and much more harm they brought than good!
A fact!
Not a fact!
Without the Noldor Beleriand and all ME would have been ruined sooner. You say that the War of Wrath can Practically be called a Calamity. What then of the war if Melkor had not been weakened in such a way. You have not commented on the quote I gave from Tolkien himself about this.
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. This would have been a total calamity with the complete destruction of Arda. And further to this from the same comments by TolkienThe last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.(8)
The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form,(9) and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge - and executioner.

Lhunithiliel
And finally, I would like to see this debate prevented from "What if" - scenarios. Let's stick to the story as it is. What if Scenarios are the way to show what was done. The story as it is shows what happened. To find the good and the bad you have to look beyond what did happen to see what the result would have been otherwise. ;)

Finduilas

11-01-2003, 09:45 PM

The disastrous nature of the Noldori is inevitable. Their pure proclivity to foreseeing and causing (not always intentionally though) detriment has been proved in their actions and is “gifted” in their name.

Noldor – from Sindarin it means wise but in a sense of cognition and not in meaning of prudence and right assumption.

Let’s trace the participation of the Noldor in the Initial History, the One noticing the absence of men:

The first war and its attendant disasters. caused by the Noldor, is the one following their Awaking:

From The Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor:
Never did Melkor forget that this war was made for the sake of the Elves, and that they were the cause of his downfall.

Here even though it is spoken of Elves as a kindred, we should consider that the Noldor were actually elves and therefore were involved and considered responsible too. Whereas, Men were still to Awake.

Later on:

From The Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor:
But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk; and they were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship. At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the Powers in the light of the Trees for ever; and Mandos broke his silence, saying; 'So it is doomed.' From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell.

…as well as…

From The Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 6 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor:

But the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them; and some hearkened to words that it would have been better for them never to have heard.

…and…

From The Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 7 Of theSilmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor:

The Noldor began to murmur against them, and many became filled with pride, forgetting how much of what they had and knew came to them in gift from the Valar.

Much is done for the sake of the Noldor, the Elves, the minions of the Valar. And yet much of it lead to detrimental consequences.

Let’s trace the deeds of the Noldor caused most damages to Middle-earth then anybody else, eccept Melkor, of course!
To start with, we should find who’s fault it was for his heart to burn so brithly!
:)

The Deeds of Finwe:
From The Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 6 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor:

The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Fëanor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons. He lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted. In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Fëanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwë, judging that if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwë is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves.

Now Finwe could not be blamed for irrationalism, but probably for a lack of luck and lack of fortune. Nevertheless, no matter what the reason is he certainly has a great deal of influence over his son’s up-growing.

Finduilas

11-01-2003, 10:02 PM

The Deeds of Cufinwe (Feanor):

His entire life is full of predestined miseries, which were caused by his powerful character, revealed even before his birth:

From the Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 6 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor:

But in the bearing of her son Míriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finwë: 'Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor.'

However, this negativism wasn’t only in the meaning of his birth but as well as in his life. This non-positive power, which is about to cause great events in the History of Arda, is revealed during his childhood:

From the Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 6 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor:

All his love he gave hereafter to his son; and Fëanor grew swiftly, as if a secret fire were kindled within him. He was tall, and fair of face, and masterful, his eyes piercingly bright and his hair raven-dark; in the pursuit of all his purposes eager and steadfast. Few ever changed his courses by counsel, none by force. he became of all the Noldor, then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand. In his youth, bettering the work of Rúmil, he devised those letters which bear his name, and which the Eldar used ever after; and he it was who, first of the Noldor, discovered how gems greater and brighter than those of the Earth might be made with skill. The first gems that Fëanor made were white and colourless, but being set under starlight they would blaze with blue and silver fires brighter than Helluin; and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with eyes of the eagles of Manwë. Seldom were the hands and mind of Fëanor at rest.
While still in his early youth he wedded Nerdanel, the daughter of a great smith named Mahtan, among those of the Noldor most dear to Aulë, and of Mahtan he learned much of the making of things in metal and in stone. Nerdanel also was firm of will, but more patient than Fëanor, desiring to understand minds rather than to master them, and at first she restrained him when the fire of his heart grew too hot; but his later deeds grieved her , and they became estranged. Seven sons she bore to Fëanor; her mood she bequeathed in part to some of them, but not to all.

The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Fëanor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons. He lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted. In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Fëanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwë, judging that if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwë is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves.

For the future detriment of his deeds speaks the secret in which he works:

From the Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 6 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor:

For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his Wife.

From the Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 7 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor:

All who dwell in Aman were filled with wonder and delight at the work of Fëanor. And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered; and Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them. The heart of Fëanor was fast bound to these things that he himself had made.

Fiercest burned the new flame of desire for freedom and wider realms in the eager heart of Fëanor […] For Fëanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own.

And Fëanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red. Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned of Aulë.

For Fëanor now began openly to speak words of rebellion against the Valar, crying aloud that he would depart from Valinor back to the world without, and would deliver the Noldor from thraldom, if they would follow him.

With him into banishment went his seven sons, and northward in Valinor they made a strong place and treasury in the hills; and there at Formenos as multitude of gems were laid in hoard, and weapons also, and the Silmarils were shut in a chamber of iron. Thither also came Finwë the King, because of the love that he bore to Fëanor; and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion. Thus the lies of Melkor were made true in seeming, though Fëanor by his own deeds had brought this thing to pass;

Here finishes the acts which are actually done by Feanor and are causes for detriment. However, the Silmarils have caused much more destruction, one which none could imagine, as well as greed and jealousy.

From the Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 8 Of the Darkening of Valinor:

It is told that even as Fëanor and Fingolfin stood before Manwë there came the mingling of the lights, when both Trees were shining, and the silent city of Valmar was filled with a radiance of silver and gold. And in that very hour Melkor and Ungoliant came hastening over the fields of Valinor, as the shadow of a black cloud upon the wind fleets over the sunlit earth; and they came before the green mound Ezellohar. Then the Unlight of Ungoliant rose up even to the roots of the Trees, and Melkor sprang upon the mound; and with his black spear he smote each Tree to its core, wounded them deep, and their sap poured forth as it were their blood, and was spilled upon the ground. But Ungoliant sucked it up, and going then from Tree to Tree she set her black beak to their wounds, till they were drained; and the poison to Death that was in her went into their tissues and withered them, root, branch, and leaf; and they died. And still she thirsted, and going to the Wells of Varda she drank them dry; but Ungoliant belched forth black vapours as she drank, and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that Melkor was afraid.

Here follows the consequences of Feanor’s actions:

From the Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 9 Of the Flight of the Noldor:

But Fëanor spoke then, and cried bitterly: 'For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman.'
'Not the first,' said Mandos, but they did not understand his word; and again there was silence, while Fëanor brooded in the dark.

'This thing I will not do of free will. But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred.'

But even as Nienna mourned, there came messengers from Formenos, and they were Noldor and bore new tidings of evil. For they told how a blind Darkness came northward, and in the midst walked some power for which there was no name, and the Darkness issued from it. But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. And they told that Melkor had broken the stronghold of Formenos, and taken all the jewels of the Noldor that were hoarded in that place; and the Silmarils were gone.
Then Fëanor rose, and lifting up his hand before Manwë he cursed Melkor, naming him Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World; and by that name only was he known to the Eldar ever after. And he cursed also the summons of Manwë and the hour in which he came to Taniquetil, thinking in the madness of his rage and grief that had he been at Formenos his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Melkor had purposed. Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

And all the rest is known…the wars (described very well by Lhunithiliel) follow, one after another, and it was only Feanor that started them…even though he didn’t meant to do it. He was unlucky, yes, he was with a great spirit, yes, he caused detrimental…yes! Men were involved in the forecoming wars, but it was not them that actually caused them (meaning either deeds or specific acts).

Lhunithiliel

11-01-2003, 10:31 PM

Our opponents did a detailed "disection" of my post! :)

Yet, as a result, there are two facts that become obvious even stronger now following that analyses, namely:

1/ Melkor was the root of evil and that evil was mightily demonstrated through the deeds of the Noldor.

Which makes them far more detrimental than the lesser Men.

and

2/ The analyses still shows nothing to prove that the lesser Men had a more detrimental impact on ME than the Noldor!

Letting myself accept the "what if"-scenario proposed by our opponents, all I see is a ME as the unclaimed realm of Melkor where he is the only powerful Master. He! Not anyone else!

What is the role and the effect of the lesser Men, then, please?

And...btw, would they have come to ME at all...except of course driven as wretched slaves. What impact can a slave have?!

So...however we look at it - from my point of view or from yours, the far stronger negative impact of the Noldor exiles upon the course of events just cannot be denied when compared to that of the lesser Men!
Because the main conflict was between the two main "figures" at that period - Melkor and the Noldor!
Men, both - the Edain and the "lesser", were still not a force to count with!

Gothmog

11-01-2003, 11:27 PM

Eriol
As I see it, Gothmog, and Arvedui, neglect the role of personal responsibility when assigning blame. If we disregard personal responsibility, all blame must be laid at Eru's door
Not so. I was answering your points on " Culpability, or "they should have known better!"The Noldor were the most skilled of the Eldar. They were skilled artisans and loremasters. They were taught by the Valar. They were loved by the Valar. They lived in the Blessed Realm of Aman. And yet... they fell to Morgoth's lies as easily as Men. You refer to the teachings and love of the ValarHow did Men fell for Morgoth's lies? No Valar came for them. They had only the cautious Avari as friends. You ignore that Eru himself had the care of Men. My answer was to point out that from this post you are saying that the Valar Failed both Noldor and Men when it was not true in either case. Indeed I think the method to be used is to accept that the two evils are comparable (as Tolkien compared them) and to see who had the most chance of avoiding the evil. If two people steal bread, we are more lenient towards the one who is starving than towards the one who is well fed. And according to that criterion, the Noldor were much better fed -- in all accounts. Except that Men had the better chef!If we consider all the Rings as a group, we see how harmful they were. And at that time the lesser houses of Men were being oppressed, by both Sauron and Númenóreans. One could make a case that the Númenórean oppression of the lesser houses of Men is a result of the Noldorin effect on the Three Houses of the Edain... I won't make that case, though, because I still think that we should focus on personal responsibility here, and the Númenórean oppression, though fomented by their glory, which is a result of Noldorin acts, is not directly attributable to the Noldor. We only see how harmful they were when given to other races. 7 were given to dwarves 9 to Men. The harm was due to Sauron's influence and their being taken from the Elves and given to those who could not use them. Of the 9 given to Men it would seem that at least 6 were to men of the lesser houses as it is only rumoured that 3 were given to black numenorians.

One could try to make a case that "the Númenorean oppression of the lesser houses of Men is a result of the Noldorin effect on the Three Houses of the Edain" If one ignores the quote I gave earlier from Myths Transformed. The effect on the Three Houses of the Edain was to raise them to "their fullest achievable stature". This cannot be done by the Noldor having a detrimental effect on them. In fact the case for the Númenorian oppression of ME has nothing to do with the Noldor but everything to do with the scars left by Melkor.The lesser houses of Men were crushed by everybody in the latter ages. They definitely were "worse fed". And so I submit that the Noldor have a (much) greater responsibility to bear in the history of Middle-Earth. They brought good, but they also brought evil; and they should have known better. Though the evils were comparable in scope and magnitude, the Noldor had better reasons to avoid them; and thus a greater responsibility. No the lesser houses of Men followed Sauron. They fought amongst themselves and prayed on any that were weaker. Through out the second and third ages many of them fought for Sauron against the Elves still in ME. It was only the intervention of the Númenorians that halted this. After the fall of Númenor the realms in exile were under constant threat if not actual invasion from the lesser houses of men of the East and the South. It was men of these houses following the Witch King of Agnmar that caused the collapse of Northern kingdoms. Though there was much strife between the three kingdoms before this.

In what way do the Noldor have a greater responsibility to bear? Because they were taught by the Valar? Men were under the care of Eru a far better teacher. The Noldor did indeed bring good. But they came after to fight against Evil. The only Noldor that could be said to have Brought evil were Fëanor and his seven sons due to their oath. However, This means a grand total of 8 out of all the Noldor that came to ME following the evil of Melkor. If you wish to tar all the Noldor with that brush then you will also have to do the same to Men because of the those Men that swore false oaths to the Elves and betrayed them in battle. Do not forget it was Melkor that wanted to enslave all of ME. It was the Noldor and the Three houses of Atani that stood in his way. So who allowed Melkor his victory? Let us look at the Silmarillion.
Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Yet neither by wolf, not by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.
And what was that treachery and who by?Same Chapter
In this hour the plots of Ulfang were revealed. Many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts being filled with lies and fear; but the sons of Ulfang went over suddenly to the Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of Fëanor, and in the confusion that they wrought they came near to the standard of Maedhros. They reaped not the reward that Morgoth promised them, for Maglor slew Uldor the accursed, the leader in treason, and the sons of Bór slew Ulfast and Ulwarth ere they themselves were slain. But new strength of evil Men came up that Uldor had summoned and kept hidden in the eastern hills, and the host of Maedhros was assailed now on three sides, and it broke, and was scattered, and fled this way and that.
Ulfang and his sons of one of the lesser houses were the chief source of the treachery but also there were many others who came at his call. If not for these Melkor would not have won the day.Great was the triumph of Morgoth, and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only those of the Three Houses of the Edain. It was by the acts of these lesser houses that a barrier was formed between Elves and the rest of Men. Had these lesser houses of Men not acted in such a way then the friendship between the Three Houses and Elves could have been extended to include All Men. This would have raised not only the Three houses to their fullest achievable stature but the rest of Men also. This would have been the best possible outcome but was prevented by the greatly detrimental acts of treachery of the lesser houses of Men.

Finduilas

11-01-2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Gothmog:
How was it that Melkor was able to have such a force ready to battle Fëanor's host only 10 days from the coming of the Noldor? If the Noldor were the cause of the problem then it would have taken Melkor far longer to have an army ready at that place. Melkor was already fighting the Elves of Beleriand and winning.

The point is that there had been a truce, though not a strong one, but a truce. And it was only when Feanor went down to the Bay of Drengist with other Noldor that it ended!

Originally posted by Gothmog:
Yes it is in fact very soon after when you consider that the Sun and the Moon were still in the sky. So the light was only a very temporary pause to the designs of Melkor. And it is not the increasing power that made Melkor do that move but the fact that the Noldor were standing in the way of those designs.

Yet the Noldor were the ones that made the war to last almost a whole set of four centuries!

Originally posted by Gothmog:
For 200 years Beleriand had peace that would not have existed had the Noldor not been there. Melkor would have increased his hold on ME and made it more and more difficult to remove him later without the destruction of Arda.

Yes, if that Peace hadn't been held, there would have been great damages. However, we should consider the fact that Melkor had been involved in a 400 years long war! He may be a Vala but his slaves are not! His might would have weakened and the damages wouldn't have been as detrimental as they happened to be after his appearance in the next war. He had been gaining both power and making new creatures, which , you must agree, is very detrimental. ;)

Originally posted by Gothmog
Of course they did. It was the only way that he had to defeat the armies opposing him. Had the Noldor not been there these different peoples would have been slaves of Meklor.

Yet they were the kindred gained most congnition and made a whole treasure of artworks. They certainly were the perfect slaves!

As for the quote, let's refresh our memory:

Myths Transformed
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.

This quotes speaks of the strenght that Men are gaining and the inevitable end of the Elves, in other words Noldor. However, this only shows the great lost of ME, because the Elves are those who gave it power and knowledge, as well as the Silmarils. After their 'fade', ME will loose a part of its 'flesh' and therefore new wars for the Ruleness over ME may start. Future is unpredictable but History has shown us that if a Giant dies, another one must be chosen...and that would mean WAR!

Ravenna

11-02-2003, 12:13 AM

Finduilas said

_________________________

The first war and its attendant disasters. caused by the Noldor, is the one following their Awaking:

quote:From The Published Silmarillion:
Chapter 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor:
Never did Melkor forget that this war was made for the sake of the Elves, and that they were the cause of his downfall.

Here even though it is spoken of Elves as a kindred, we should consider that the Noldor were actually elves and therefore were involved and considered responsible too. Whereas, Men were still to Awake.

________________________

Hardly fair, I would say to blame the Noldor, or even Elves in general for something which was decided upon by beings of far greater power and wisdom even if it was for their benefit.
After all

Yet they had no part in those deeds,and they know little of the riding of the might of the West against the North in the beginning of their days.

Admittedly this war was waged for their sake, but you cannot lay blame for it at their feet and therefore, any detrimental effects of it can only be laid at the feet on the Valar themselves.

Gothmog

11-02-2003, 12:40 AM

Finduilas
To continue from the post of Ravanna Much is done for the sake of the Noldor, the Elves, the minions of the Valar. And yet much of it lead to detrimental consequences. Yes it is done for the sake of the Elves not the Noldor. The Elves are not and never were "Minions of the Valar" They were Kindred to the Valar but of lesser stature and might.To start with, we should find who's fault it was for his heart to burn so brithly! Ok We shall.Of the flight of the Noldor
Then turning to the herald he cried: 'Say this to Manwë Súlimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!'
Even from the mouth of Fëanor himself comes the answer. Eru.Now Finwe could not be blamed for irrationalism, but probably for a lack of luck and lack of fortune. Nevertheless, no matter what the reason is he certainly has a great deal of influence over his son's up-growing. Is that so?Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
In that time was born in Eldamar, in the house of the King in Tirion upon the crown of Túna, the eldest of the sons of Finwë, and the most beloved. Curufinwë was his name, but by his mother he was called Fëanor, Spirit of Fire; and thus he is remembered in all the tales of the Noldor. andAll his love he gave hereafter to his son; and Fëanor grew swiftly, as if a secret fire were kindled within him. He was tall, and fair of face, and masterful, his eyes piercingly bright and his hair raven-dark; in the pursuit of all his purposes eager and steadfast. Few ever changed his courses by counsel, none by force. thenNow it came to pass that Finwë took as his second wife Indis the Fair. She was a Vanya, close king of Ingwë the High King, golden-haired and tall, and in all ways unlike Míriel. Finwë loved her greatly, and was glad again. But the shadow of Míriel did not depart from the house of Finwë, nor from his heart; and of all whom he loved Fëanor had ever the chief share of his thought. Yet Fëanor was full grown before Finwe married his second wife. So that has little bearing on this. And all the rest is known…the wars (described very well by Lhunithiliel) follow, one after another, and it was only Feanor that started them…even though he didn't meant to do it. He was unlucky, yes, he was with a great spirit, yes, he caused detrimental…yes! Men were involved in the forecoming wars, but it was not them that actually caused them (meaning either deeds or specific acts). And by your claims not by the Noldor either. It seems that you are blaming all on One Elf. Fëanor. Therefore as He is the only one responsible the rest of the Noldor could not have a detrimental effect. In fact they were the ones that helped the rest of the peoples of ME.

Lhunithiliel, You still have not answered the quote I gave in my first post. "The heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay". These are Tolkien's words. If they are the Best weapon for this task how could they be the most detrimental?Letting myself accept the "what if"-scenario proposed by our opponents, all I see is a ME as the unclaimed realm of Melkor where he is the only powerful Master. He! Not anyone else! Yes Melkor was the only powerful Master. The Noldor were the only ones that could hold him back for long enough to teach the Atani and allow Melkor to weaken himself to the point that the Valar could remove him from ME without this resulting in the total destruction of Arda.What is the role and the effect of the lesser Men, then, please? They allowed Melkor to gain victory over the Noldor and their allies the Atani. See my previous post.And...btw, would they have come to ME at all...except of course driven as wretched slaves. What impact can a slave have?! They were in ME. They could be nowhere else. As for why they came. Most came to betray or fight against the Elves and the Atani at the orders of Melkor.So...however we look at it - from my point of view or from yours, the far stronger negative impact of the Noldor exiles upon the course of events just cannot be denied when compared to that of the lesser Men!
Because the main conflict was between the two main "figures" at that period - Melkor and the Noldor!
From your point of view this is how you see it. However, while the main conflict was at that time between the Noldor and Melkor, had it not been so there would have been no Beleriand and no chance for Men.

Until the Lesser houses of Men betrayed and fought against the Noldor and their allies Melkor was kept in the North with peace for the rest of Beleriand. When these men of the lesser houses fought for Melkor the war spread throughout that land. So which was the more detrimental? The war in the North that gave peace to the South in Beleriand or the victory of Melkor brought about by the treachery of the Lesser houses of Men that unleashed the might of Melkor on the lands once more?

Gothmog

11-02-2003, 02:29 AM

FinduilasThe point is that there had been a truce, though not a strong one, but a truce. And it was only when Feanor went down to the Bay of Drengist with other Noldor that it ended! You claim that there was a truce? With whom then was this truce? If we look in the Silmarillion for the time when Fëanor and his army landed in ME we find There:Of the Sindar
Now the Orcs that multiplied in the darkness of the earth grew strong and fell, and their dark lord filled them with a lust of ruin and death; and they issued from Angband's gates under the clouds that Morgoth sent forth, and passed silently into the highlands of the north. Thence on a sudden a great army came into Beleriand and assailed King Thingol.
And a little later in the same chapterAnd when Thingol came again to Menegroth he learned that the Orc-host in the west was victorious, and had drive Círdan to the rim of the sea. Therefore he withdrew all his people that his summons could reach within the fastness of Neldoreth and Region, and Melian put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen was of shadow and bewilderment: the Girdle of Melian, that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia. And this inner land, which was long named Eglador, was after called Doriath, the guarded kingdom, Land of the Girdle. Within it there was yet a watchful peace; but without there was peril and great fear, and the servants of Morgoth roamed at will, save in the walled havens of the Falas.

But new tidings were at hand, which none in Middle-earth had foreseen, neither Morgoth in his pits nor Melian in Menegroth; for no news came out of Aman, whether by messenger, or by spirit, or by vision in dream, after the death of the Trees. In this same time Fëanor came over the Sea in the white ships of the Teleri, and landed in the Firth of Drengist, and there burned the ships at Losgar.
There was no truce, the Elves of Beleriand had been forced to retreat from most of the land. The creatures of Melkor had the run of Beleriand except for the area covered by the Girdle of Melian and the Walled Havens of the Falas. The Noldor freed Beleriand from these creatures.Yet the Noldor were the ones that made the war to last almost a whole set of four centuries! No, the Noldor held back the tide of Melkor's wrath for 4 centuries. Melkor without the Noldor would have ended the war sooner it is true but only by enslaving or killing all who lived in ME. Not just Beleriand.Yes, if that Peace hadn't been held, there would have been great damages. However, we should consider the fact that Melkor had been involved in a 400 years long war! He may be a Vala but his slaves are not! His might would have weakened and the damages wouldn't have been as detrimental as they happened to be after his appearance in the next war. He had been gaining both power and making new creatures, which , you must agree, is very detrimental. His slaves were part of the reason he became weak enough for the Valar to remove him without the destruction of Arda. Without the war against the Noldor he would have lost less of his personal power into the Matter of Arda and into his creatures. Had the Valar gone against him instead of the Noldor, even if they had waited, Melkor would have destroyed Arda rather than let the Valar remove him. As for the creatures he had been breeding, This he was doing anyway and would have done so had the Noldor not returned to ME. Melkor would have needed more creatures to extend his war to the rest of ME beyond Beleriand. Also He would have lost far less of them against the other peoples than he did because of the Noldor.This quotes speaks of the strenght that Men are gaining and the inevitable end of the Elves, in other words Noldor. However, this only shows the great lost of ME, because the Elves are those who gave it power and knowledge, as well as the Silmarils. After their 'fade', ME will loose a part of its 'flesh' and therefore new wars for the Ruleness over ME may start. Future is unpredictable but History has shown us that if a Giant dies, another one must be chosen...and that would mean WAR! I do not understand what you are saying here. The Elves fading was inevitable because that is how Ilúvatar decided it would be. The Elves to come first to ME and then make way for Men. The Noldor helped to prepare Men to be ready for this and for their greater task to work towards Arda Healed. When you talk about History showing us that in the context of Tolkien's work you must remember that this is due to the marring of Arda by Melkor during the Music of the Ainur. Evil will always return in some form and Greater Good will come out of it.

Had Melkor not been weakened by the war against the Noldor he would have been too powerful for the Valar to remove. Had he remained in ME Men would have been unable to fight against him and there would be no chance to see Arda Healed. Had the lesser houses of Men not caused a rift between the Elves and the greater part Men more of these could have been taught and raised to greater stature as had the Atani. This would have aided the whole of Arda. As it was these Men of the lesser houses Betrayed and fought against the Elves and their Allies and consequently weakened Men as a whole preventing them from reaching the heights that they could have and should have attained at that time. By doing this they also harmed the other peoples of ME as war did not cease after this time and the Men of the East and South still followed the ways of Melkor. Sauron lead them against any that opposed him.

Starflower

11-02-2003, 12:51 PM

first of all, apologies for my late appearance in this debate.

Had the lesser houses of Men not caused a rift between the Elves and the greater part Men more of these could have been taught and raised to greater stature as had the Atani. This would have aided the whole of Arda. As it was these Men of the lesser houses Betrayed and fought against the Elves and their Allies and consequently weakened Men as a whole preventing them from reaching the heights that they could have and should have attained at that time. By doing this they also harmed the other peoples of ME as war did not cease after this time and the Men of the East and South still followed the ways of Melkor. Sauron lead them against any that opposed him.

You are arguing that the lesser Men caused all the problems, they are the ones who caused a rift between Elves and Men. Well I argue that ti was indeed the Elves who started this, when they exptended their friendship and protectoin to the Three Houses of Edain only. Why did they not attempt tp make friends with the rest of the MEn ?
a reason might be found in this quote:

Now the Green-Elves of Ossiriand were troubled by the coming of Men, and when they heard that a lord of the Eldar from over the Sea was among them they sent messengers to Felagund.'Lord,' they said, 'if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways that they came or else to go forward. For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.'
These were the Green-Elves, they had never met Men before, just hear ugly rumours about them, so they make up their minds that they must be evil. But the evil wasnot of the Men, it was caused by Morgoth.
But Morgoth , seeing that by lies and deciets he could not yet wholly estrange the Elves and Men, was filled with wrath and he endeavoured to do Men what harm he could.

I see this as a direct consequence of the coming of the Noldor to Middle-earth, as Morgoth considerd Feanor ' his bitterest foe', and hearing of the Noldor's return made war on them.

GOiE asks 'In what way do the Noldor have a greater responsibility to bear? Because they were taught by the Valar? Men were under the care of Eru a far better teacher.'
To Hildorien there cam no Vala to guide Men, or to summon them to dwell in Valinor; and Men have feared the Valar, and have not understood the purposes of the Powers.
Yes, the Men were Children of Iluvatar, but nowhere do we see any evidence that Eru in any way taught them or cared for them directly, as the Valar had done for the Eldar. Everywhere we are told that the Elves surpassed the Men in wisdom and knowledge, as well as physical stature. So how can the ELves not be responsible? If they so far surpass the other race, would it not be in their own interest - if not a responsibility - to befriend them, teach them and care for them. And what do they do ? Pick the best of the crop and leave the rest to fend for themselves. It is the opinion of the Guild that the actions of the Noldor were in the long run far more detrimental than those of the lesser Men

Lhunithiliel

11-02-2003, 02:33 PM

Lhunithiliel, You still have not answered the quote I gave in my first post. "The heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay". These are Tolkien's words. If they are the Best weapon for this task how could they be the most detrimental?

The detrimental effect of the Noldor IMO comes precisely from this - for being there, for doing everything possible to hinder the spread of Melkor's influence over ME, for being the "best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay", the Noldor involve all the races of those times in endless conflicts - Elves against Melkor, Elves and Edaini against Melkor, Edaini against lesser Men, Elves against Elves etc .... all that destroying the positive achievements reached through the relatively short periods of peace in-between wars and battles.

In simpler words - evil and harm resulted from the "good" intentions and achievements of the Noldor!
That's why their impact can be considered as far more harmful than that of the "lesser" Men.

The roots of that sad fact are clear and both teams have not different opinions on this matter.
However, we are here to compare in which race Melkor's corruption was manifested stronger, hence followed by a stronger detrimental impact on part of this race.
And analysing this - the answer is here - it were the Noldor!

And I think that Eriol, Finduilas, Starflower and I have shown this fact in full light!

When trying to prove the stronger detrimental effect of the lesser men, our opponents stick to the isolated case of Ulfang and the treachery of his people causing to an extent the losing of ... what?
Of one battle !

But comparing it to the overall strong influence of the deeds of the Noldor, it still stays simply this - an isolated case.

As I already said, in First Age and even in the Secong Age, the "lesser" were still not a force to count with, Therefore, comparing their impact on the course of events to that of the Noldor and later - to the Numenoreans, it is obvious that lesser Men did not and could not have a stronger detrimental effect than the Noldor.

I would also like to briefly address sth. our opponents bring forward as an argument.
They say that Men were instructed by Eru himself.
Yet, in numerous ways they also state that Men were under the direct influence of Melkor and HIM they held as their supreme God.
Could you make up your mind? ;)

Because, if take it like "Men guided by Eru directly", then what detrimental effect could've they had? Would Eru have permitted them do this?

An