Judging, Round 8 - GoE vs GoP

[Ancalagon]

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13437

That is the thread in question, the judges are;

Nom,
Gothmog
Starflower
Gil-Galad

and me for the moment, though I am waiting for another to reply:) Satisfied Snaga:p

[Snaga]

Am I missing something or doesnt that make 2 judges for OiE??:confused:

[Nóm]

It came down to Periaur saying there was no sign that Smaug worked for Sauron, and GoD/E's attempts to show that he was, were all chopped down or attacked and dropped. So, the Periaur get my vote.

A look at the arguements...

GoE/D's first arguement was Gandalf's statement that Sauron 'might' use Smaug effectively.

In arguing back, Tweens point out the 'might' and that it didn't ever come to that as Smaug was killed before it could. So the first arguement of GoD/E came to nothing... though I have no idea why they didn't include an even better statement made by Gandalf in the same place.

Periaur claim that treasure alone brought Smaug to Erebor... and that there is no sign of allegiance between Smaug and Sauron, even though Smaug's attack of Erebor coincidently was of benefit to Sauron.

GoE/D also said that Sauron would have command of the dragons since they had previously served Morgoth whom Sauron replaced as Dark Lord. Periaur say Sauron didn't just inherent Morgoth's following but had to draw scattered creatures into his service.

There was a line of argument regarding Sauron's ability to control a dragon. I was not fully convinced either way... but tend to think Sauron probably could have gained a dragon. But did he?

GoD/E then argue that Smaug served Sauron 'indirectly'. This claim, that Smaug did so by causing something which lead to Sauron gaining a dwarf Ring, seems to be that Smaug unwittingly served Sauron's purposes. This had already been addressed by Periaur who said the disaster of Smaug was of some benefit to Sauron as a coincidence.

GpD/E argue that Smaug was involved in battles late in First Age, and as such was under command of Morgoth? Sauron? Not sure what they mean to say! Anyhow, Periaur come back to say that Morgoth and not Sauron was in charge during those battles. Periaur give a quote that implies Smaug wasn't old enough to have been alive during Morgoth's reign. A thing GoD/E could have fought against. They probably could have shown Smaug was older than the Periaur claimed, but even had they done so... they were using the wrong battles (in my opinion)... they used the First Age battles in their claim, and not Second Age ones.

The key that GoD/E missed was this '... and their [those warriors'] like is not in the world today'. Which was included in the fuller quote that Periaur gave.
But upon the fuller quote they provided, Periaur (mistakenly, I believe) found the claim that Smaug was refering to the warriors at the time he took Erebor and was therefore young and tender at that point, so could not have existed during the WotJ.

Periaur also toss in the arguement that the nazgul were the only servants fitting to strike up a deal with Smaug but they were busy elsewhere during the time... but the debate ended before this could go anywhere.

Additional note...

Beth quotes Snaga on this: "But a (un)happy coincidence of Smaug actions and Saurons malevolent will, doesnt prove that Smaug served Sauron. That implies some sense of command and control from Sauron."
And she replies with this: "Indeed. But a sense of COMMAND and CONTROL from Sauron would also suggest servitude. "

I hope I am not mistaken in thinking she mistook Snaga's meaning. She seems think this "that" refers to the (un)happy coincidence. I think it refers to "doesnt prove that Smaug served Sauron." Especially since it is followed up with this: "I can't see any evidence of that, beyond Gandalf's statement of an unfulfilled possibility."

But whatever happened here... even if I am wrong, I wouldn't be enough to change my vote.

[Snaga]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13437

That is the thread in question, the judges are;

Nom,
Gothmog
Starflower
Gil-Galad

and me for the moment, though I am waiting for another to reply:) Satisfied Snaga:p Nope... I'm not satisfied until your mystery judge is revealed to represent which ever guild it is, and either you or Gothmog steps aside. So say I, Snaga the Intransigent!;)

[Ancalagon]

Hmmm, I wanted Maedhros to do it, but it seems for some reason he can't, something to do with being from a different guild? Whatever that means? Anyhoo, I would like him to judge:)

[Gil-Galad]

I'm going to be very short.
What could Beth do,alone against Snaga and Aule?At least she did her best!!
The Swordmaster also had some intreresting ideas like:

Aule serving someone can be done indirectly. Smaug served Sauron a great favor and indirectly it gave him a great gift. That gift is one of the seven dwarven rings owned by Durin’s folk.
But they did not develop the idea of indirect help of Smaug.That was a good chance for them,but they missed it.

At the same time Snaga and Aule posted some things which were really good:


1. Smaug never worked for Sauron. He never did anything that assisted Sauron in any way. If Sauron had managed to lure Smaug into ravashing Lorien and Rivendell by means of promising bounty, it would have meant that he unwittingly served Sauron. But he didn't- Bard killed him off before Smaug could serve Sauron in that way.
2. Smaug never was a servent of Sauron. As Beth said, he never followed orders from Sauron. It can be said that he was a servent of Melkor at one stage, but never of Sauron.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Hobbit
"Revenge!" he [Smaug] snorted, and the light of his eyes lit the the hall from floor to ceiling like scarlet lightning. "Revenge! The King under the Mountain is dead and where are hi kin that dare seek revenge? Girion Lord of Dale is dead, and I have eaten his people like a wolf among sheep, and where are his sons' sons that dare approach me? I kill where I wish and none dare resist. I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong strong. Thief in the Shadows!" he gloated. "My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Notice that Smaug kills what he wishes, rather than what Sauron wishes?
I like this post by Aule and especially the quote from the Hobbit.
And this is not the only one good post by GoP,the truth is that without doing their best they managed to convince me they are right.Also I would like to mention that Beth deserves a kind of an award for being the only one who debated for her Guild!!!!
My vote goes to GoP

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by snaga1
Nope... I'm not satisfied until your mystery judge is revealed to represent which ever guild it is, and either you or Gothmog steps aside. So say I, Snaga the Intransigent!;) Well Snaga the Intransigent. You are correct about the problem of both myself and Anc. being from the same guild. I had not given this any thought when I was asked and haven't had a chance to talk to Anc. since.

I will not post a judgement until I have spoken to Anc. to find out what he is doing about this problem.

[Ancalagon]

You fire on Gothmog and post, I will get another to fill the gap, it looks like Maedhros will be the final judge, so I can stand aside.

[Gothmog]

Ok. I will post later tonight.

[Gothmog]

First I would like to congratulate the debaters of both teams but especially Beth who was willing to once more debate on her own and did well indeed.

The basis of the GoE/D's argument is that what Smaug did in attacking the Dwarves of Erebor was of benefit to Sauron and therefore Smaug served Sauron. This was coupled with the claim that as Morgoth controlled the Dragons in the first age, Sauron must have had that control after him.

The Guild of Periaur countered that Smaug had his own reasons for his actions and that there was no evidence to show that Sauron had ever had anything to do with those actions. The Periaur agree that certain actions of Smaug were indeed of benefit to Sauron's plans but that this was just due to " a (un)happy coincidence of Smaug actions and Saurons malevolent will".

In reading through this debate I felt that both sides debated well. But I think that the GoE/D had chosen the harder side to prove. Unfortunately they were not able to convince me of their view. The Guild of Periaur on the other hand brought in some very convincing quotes to back up their arguments.

I vote for the Periaur.

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13437

That is the thread in question, the judges are;

Nom,
Gothmog
Starflower
Gil-Galad

and me for the moment, though I am waiting for another to reply:) Satisfied Snaga:p
Starflower and Gil-Galad are both from the GoT. Since GG has already judged, you'll have to get someone to replace Starflower too.

You need a judge from the Guild of Scholars (Maedhros, if he has agreed), and a Guild-less judge.

[Gil-Galad]

What a mess?!!!Everything here seems to be very confusing...:confused: ;)

[Snaga]

This really needs sorting out. Has anyone seen Anc?:confused:

[Aulë]

Maedhros needs to judge.
So does the unknown Neutral judge.

[Maedhros]

Sorry for the late response, I have had personal problems lately that have prevented me from forum interaction. I will post my judgement hopefully tomorrow.

[Ancalagon]

Ahhh, poor Starflower:(

However, keep your pants on the rest of you, I will find a final judge to replace her and wrap this thing up. Apologies btw, I've been busy pushing water uphill recently and it does tend to take up much of my time!

[Maedhros]

Well, I see it very simple.
To me, the arguments of the GoE are mostly speculative. They don't show a specific link between Sauron and Smaug. Now that I think about it, I don't think there is one in the books.
Overall, I think that the GoP had more persuasive arguements, but because of the difficulty of the topic I give a draw.

[HLGStrider]

Before you throw tomatoes at me for posting where I should Anc asked me to do this in a PM. . .I'm not sure if that means I'm the mystery nuetral or not, but it probably does, which is cool. . .I've never been mysterious before.

Anyway. . .Clears throat. I'm sort of torn. I think that Beth and Swordmaster's posts were much better written, more interesting, and all that. Everytime I read them I started to agree with them. Then I'd read one of Snag's or Aules quotes and BLAM. Hit my face into a wall that disproved everything that the GoE/D people had said so dang well. . .or at least throw serious doubts about it. However, the GoP was more abrassive. . .It's just the quotes seem to be on their side.

So, if I were voting for persuassion, I'd vote for GoE/D, but as I think what we're judging is exactly who proved something, that'd be the GoP. They didn't prove anything, I guess. . .But they disproved just about everything to GoE/D said.

So I guess I say GoP.