The Shadow Of The Past

[jrrrules]

Gandalf shows up three years after the Party, and Frodo finds out
that the Ring passed to him by his uncle Bilbo is much more
than he could have imagined in his wildest dreams. It is in fact
the One Ring of Power. Gandalf has found out many things, and
among them is the true identity and history of Gollum. When
Frodo hears what the wizard has to say, he cannot believe that
Gandalf actually pities Gollum, and states that he wishes that
Bilbo had killed the creature when he had the chance. A dialogue
with Gandalf ensues which will always stay with me...
Gandalf says,"Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand, Pity and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Besure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in theend, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity."
Frodo can't understand why the wizard and the Elves let go this
creature that deserves death. Gandalf, the ever wise, gives a
short speech (which I was thrilled that they put in the movie"
which is absolutely beautiful ...
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many live that deserve death.
And many die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Thenn
be not too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even
the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that
Golllum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance."
Plenty of food for discussion.

THOUGHTS, ANYONE?

[Lantarion]

Welcoem to the forum, JrrRules! :D

I especially like the way Gandalf's mobile character is contrasted by later (and former) events. For example, compare Gandalf's discussion with Frodo, basically a very homely, small and humble matter for a Maia to be practicing, with this quote:
Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word 'third'). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third"; and Curumo remembered it.
I think the contrast between a council of the Valar where Gandalf speaks directly with the Lord of the Valar, and this little scene in a Hobbit's house contrast each other wonderfully, and really bring out Gandalf's personality and his dedication.

GO OLÓRIN!! :)

[HLGStrider]

Isn't it more than three years after the party that Frodo finds out what the ring is? I thought it was more like twenty years? Frodo was fifty, I thought when it happened and thirty something when he got the rign.

[Starflower]

well Isn't it more than three years after the party that Frodo finds out what the ring is? I thought it was more like twenty years? Frodo was fifty, I thought when it happened and thirty something when he got the rign.

You are correct of course, Gandalf first appeared back in Hobbiton three years after the party, but the main event in this chapter happens seventeen years after the party, Frodo being fifty years of age.
At this point Gandalf hadn't turned up in over nine years, and Frodo had begun to think Gandalf would never return. But he does return, again late at night in secret. This is a change fronm earlier time when Gandalf would come and go in open, and stay for a long time.
Gandalf looks very careworn and old to Frodo, and they have much to talk about. What were Frodo's thoughts that first night after their discussion? He must have been shocked to hear of things like Sauron and the Ring, and the doom approaching the world. He is still very naive, not having been around the world much, somewhat reminiscent of Bilbo in the first chapter of the Hobbit, but when Gandalf tells him about Sauron and the Ring, what Frodo comes up with is pretty amazing.

'Well' said Gandalf at last. 'What are you thinking about?Have you decided what to do ?'
'No!' answered Frodo, coming back to himself out of darkness, and finding to his surprise that it was not dark, and that out of the windowhe could see the sunlit garden. 'Or perhaps yes. As far as I understand what you have said, I suppose I must keep the Ring and guard it, at least for the present, whatever it may do to me.'
'Whatever it may do, it will be slow, slow to evil if you keep it with that purpose,' said Gandalf.
'I hope so,' said Frodo. 'But I hope that you might some other better keeper soon. But in the meanwhile it seems that I am a danger, a danger to all that live near me. I cannot keep the Ring and stay here. I ought to leave Bag End, leave the Shire, leave everything and go away.' He sighed.
'I should like to save the Shire, if I could.....................
Of course, I have sometimes thought of going away, but I imagined that as a kind of holiday... But this would mean exile, a flight from danger to danger, drawing it after me. And I suppose I must go alone, if I am to do that and save the Shire. But I feel very small, andvery uprooted, and well - desperate. The Enemy is so strong and terrible.'
He did not tell Gandalf, but as he was speaking a great desire to follow Bilbo flamed up in his heart - to follow Bilbo, and perhaps to find him again. It was so strong that it overcame his fear: he could almost have run out there and then down the road without his hat, as Bilbo had done on a smilar morning long ago.
'My dear Frodo!' exclaimed Gandalf.'Hobbits really are amazing creatures as I have said before. You can learn all there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you at a pinch. I hardly expected to get such an answer, not even from you.

[HLGStrider]

Thanks for that. . .I'm lousy with numbers, you know.

[jallan]

This is Gandalf’s chapter.

So much exposition to get through, and it goes down so easily because we get it through Gandalf’s mouth.

Almost every sentence Gandalf speaks in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings is unmistakably Gandalf.

That’s amazing character building for a someone whose job in the tale is partly to be mysterious and unknown and unknowable.

[Quercus]

Starflower’s quote reminds me of one that can be found in the chapter The Black Gate is Closed, it says:

And here he was a little halfling from the Shire, a simple hobbit of the quiet countryside expected to find a way where the great ones could not go, or dared not go. It was an evil fate. But he had taken it on himself in his own sitting-room in the far-off spring of another year, so remote now that it was like a chapter in a story of the world's youth, when the Trees of Silver and Gold were still in bloom.

Although Frodo had hoped that someone else would take responsibility for the Ring, he knew from the very beginning that it was a cross (or Ring) he would have to bear.

[celebdraug]

Bilbo is stupid too!
when he got the ring he should have checked up on it!
These things are rare... :confused:

[Inderjit S]

Bilbo just thought it was a magic ring. He knew nothing about the Rings of Power. He could not be expected to find a link between the two even if he knew of the Rings of Power, the Ring certainly didn't give any 'great' powers, or exhibit evil, it just made him invisible, hardly the only power of a great ring. He of course felt he was getting stretched, and of course the fact that he barely aged over 70 odd years, but he never attributed these things to the Ring.

One cannot expect Bilbo to find the link between his ring and the Rings of Power even if he knew of them. He just thought it was a magic ring, nothing else. He was also secretive about the Ring, so him asking people about it’s significance would have contradicted his “relationship” (so to speak) with the Ring. Gandalf, the wise Wizard, the wisest and more well respected of all Bilbo’s friends, exhibited none of his fears to Bilbo, so this may have allayed any of Bilbo’s fears. If Gandalf wasn’t too concerned then why should he be?

[Helcaraxë]

Lanty, where did you get that quote? HoME? Only read the first two.:eek:

--MB

[Inderjit S]

Lanatarion's quote on the Istari comes from a essay published in Unfinished Tales 'The Istari'.

[Eledhwen]

"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many live that deserve death.
And many die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Thenn
be not too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even
the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that
Golllum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance."

The last sentence of jrrrules' quote is a recurring theme. There seems to be no death sentence in his works of the cold blooded sort judges and juries dish out. Gollum, Grima Wormtongue and Saruman all cause more damage after their release, but this is considered a price worth paying because of the hope they will repent. Only Morgoth received a real life sentence, and then only after horrific consequences following his first release.

This, I feel, reflects on Tolkien's views on life and death. God knows, he saw enough death in the Somme; but his faith in that God caused him to not fear it. Death is not the end; and in the understanding of Middle Earth, that thought was not even entertained, except in the corrupted Numenor.

[Hikaru]

I love that speech of Galdalf's too.

I also agree that Bilbo didn't know about the power of the Ring...and he is proof that the Ring is an evil influence even on those who don't consciously wield its power.

[Greenwood]

It is Bilbo's, and later Frodo's, pity of Gollum and their sparing of his life that in the end save Frodo and Middle Earth. There are a number of letters of Tolkien's in which he states this explicitly:

[Letter181]

But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end - but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most bebeficial thing any one could have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden.

[italics in original]


[Letter 191]

He (and the Cause) were saved - by Mercy; by the supreme value and efficacy of Pity and forgiveness of injury.



[Letter 192]
In this case the cause (not the 'hero') was triumphant, because by the exercise of pity, mercy, and forgiveness of injury, a situation was produced in which all was redressed and disaster averted.



Letter 246 (which is fairly long and which I do not have the time to excerpt right now) is also very interesting reading and extensively discusses Tolkien's view of pity and its importance in finally saving Frodo and Middle Earth. In Tolkien's view, the Ring is just too powerful and no one could ever willingly destroy it.

[jrrrules]

good insight, Greenwood. it's interesting how what appears to be
folly may turn out to be the greatest good - if you are a Christian,
look at the Crucifixion!