Beauty is Crooked in the Eye of the Beholder

[Inderjit S]

I have often defended Tolkien from any accusations of racism. Tolkien was not a racist. There are a lot of good 'dark-skinned people' in his works.

But there is one point in Tolkien's works that really annoys me-his description of the "greater beauty" of the fair skinned women and the "ugliness" of the dark skinned ones in comparison.

We hear in the Narn i Hin Húrin (U.T)

But Brodda took Aerin as a wife and not a slave, for there were few women amongst his own following, and none to compare with the daughters of the Edain

When the Easterlings first came into Dor-lómin he said to his mother: "When will my father come back, to cast out these ugly thieves

In the tale of Tal-elmar we hear about a Battle in which the people the 'incomers from the East' who were fair-skinned, whilst the peoples here were dark. In the Battle of Ishmalog, when they 'Incomers of the East' are defeated, a Man named Buldar took captive a woman who he made his wife because;

For she was beautiful, and having looked on her he desired no woman of his own folk.

We later hear her say;

Never again shall I be glad, while I am held captive among a strange folk that I deem base and unlovely.'

The songs and the strange tongue he too forgot, when he grew up, but his mother he never forgot; and he took a wife late, for no woman of his own folk seemed desirable to him that knew what beauty in a woman might be

Quotes from Tal-Elmar (HoME 12)

I find such quotes as being impertinent to dark skinned peoples, the quotes from Túrin and Elmar can be understood, they would have been ugly in their eyes, but that their own folk should acknowledge 'true beauty' when they saw fair skinned women is a very controversial statement.

We also hear in Letter #210; Letter of Tolkien that Orks looked like;

. Why does Z put beaks and feathers on Orcs!? (Orcs is not a form of Auks.) The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types. Letter #210; Letter of Tolkien

Of course Tolkien uses his words carefully here. They would have looked ugly to Europeans and they were 'degraded' and 'repulsive' versions of the 'Mongol-types'.

Tolkien does speak of the appearance of the 'Swarthy Folk' in a slightly positive way on one occasion though;

this year new tidings came to Beleriand: the Swarthy Men came out of Eriador, and passing north about the Eryd Luin entered into Lothlann. Their coming was not wholly unlooked-for, since the Dwarves had warned Maidros that hosts of Men out of the further East were journeying towards Beleriand. They were short and broad, long and strong in the arm, and grew much hair on face and breast; their locks were dark as were their eyes, and their skins were sallow or swart. But they were not all of one kind, in looks or in temper or in tongue. Some were not uncomely and were fair to deal with; some were grim and ill-favoured and of little trust Grey Annals; HoME 11

[Celebthôl]

Some good points, but Mr Tolkien is I guess, just telling the story from the fair peoples point of view. If you were to get someone from the easter/southron's point of view, i bet you'd find they'd, be like that against the people of the north/west. Just a thought.

[Starflower]

Are you sure Inder that Tolkien's characters in your quotes are talking about fair-skinned people vs dark-skinned people? I read it more that as we know, the Three Houses of Edain were goldenhaired and fairskinned, which is a normal combination. But the Easterlings are described as being dark, but nowehre can I see mention that they would be specifically dark of skin rather than hair.

But Brodda took Aerin as a wife and not a slave, for there were few women amongst his own following, and none to compare with the daughters of the Edain

this quote doesn't in any way mean that the women of Brodda's following would have been dark skinned and thus unattractive, rather that the daughters of Edain were of such beauty that the other women simply could not compare.

When the Easterlings first came into Dor-lómin he said to his mother: "When will my father come back, to cast out these ugly thieves

again in this quote, the ugliness relates to the the Easterlings' behaviour and status as rapists and thieves.



For she was beautiful, and having looked on her he desired no woman of his own folk.

Never again shall I be glad, while I am held captive among a strange folk that I deem base and unlovely.'

The songs and the strange tongue he too forgot, when he grew up, but his mother he never forgot; and he took a wife late, for no woman of his own folk seemed desirable to him that knew what beauty in a woman might be

I would say all these have been taken out of context of the story itself, none of these on their own mean that the people being talked about are ugly because they are darkskinned.

The prejudice goes both ways you know, not all white people are racist towards the black, sometimes ( and more often than ever these days) it's the black being racist against the white, with the pretext "they are going to be prejudiced against me anyway, so I am going to counter taht before they even start...".
But I seriously do not think that these quotes, or any found in Tolkien's works relate to dark people being ugly and fair peiople being the beautiful ones. I think you're reading too much into it Inder.

[Nóm]

I am also bothered by that sort of assumption, that women of one race would be universally most beautiful. It's not a fact of nature (such as is the fact that men do fall for the most pretty women) but rather it isn't true at all. On the other hand, I can see how the Edain in general (not just their women) might be said to be more beautiful than 'lesser' men, since in Middle-earth, beauty always seems to go hand in hand with status and often noblity somehow.

Frankly I get sick of hearing about how 'fair' this and that person are. Isn't there also some bit in LotR which says Sam's daughter was called 'the fair' because she was less hobbit-like physically? I recall something about people saying she looked more like an elf than a hobbit, and that she had golden hair as did a lot of the hobbit children born at that time. So is this to say that the dark haired hobbits would think a golden haired elf-looking freak of a hobbit was most fair? I do not remember the details... but irked me the very first time I read it.

Most any good women gets a mention of her beauty it seems, though it happens a lot with men too (Turin for example). At least Feanor had an average looking spouse... funny I liked him a bit more when I read that fact. That he, so talented, brilliant, and mighty prince, would love someone who he had friendship with rather than being sucked into superficial beauty love like Beren was.

And I've seen the same thing on this forum, by the way, when people express certain thoughts about dwarf women looking like dwarf men.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
But shouldn't we, before making any assumptions about Tolkien's "racism" and/or "sense of beauty", examine why in Tolkien's Middle-earth the threats so often come from the East and South, from dark-haired and dark-skinned people, and why Tolkien compares his Orcs with (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types?

Maybe that could cast a different light at this issue...
Yes...I guess, it will be good to explain why!

So... Why??? ;) :)

But I personally, still don't think Tolkien can be blamed for "racism". We know that he was so strongly against any such type of politics existing and being practiced in his own real world.

I'd rather explain the here discussed matter with the fact that in Tolkien's Middle-earth the criterium for beauty was always related to "light" - spiritual as well as physical. Even among his Elves - the most beautiful creatures in Arda, those fairer were the ones with fairer complextion. :rolleyes:

[Arvedui]

I think we need to look at the time when Tolkien grew up. He was born in South-Africa in 1892.
He probably remembered little of South-Africa, but after all, that country was until recently famous for equal opportunities for all people, mindless of race or colour.
He grew up in Great Britain. And as far as I remember, racism was not an issue their either at the time.
In fact, not even at the time he wrote his masterpieces were it by any means seen as wrong to look down upon people with other features than the caucasian race.

So no matter if we like it or not, I think we will have to accept that the views of JRR Tolkien were not wrong in their time, but they can be seen as incorrect today.

[Celebthôl]

I think Arvedui has it, i speek to elderly people where i work and they refer to coloured people as "darkys", i dont like it and have told them so, but its what they were brought up on.

[Inderjit S]

I read it more that as we know, the Three Houses of Edain were goldenhaired and fairskinned, which is a normal combination

No they weren't. The Hadorians were undergoing changes whereby they had more dark-haired people (Though all were fair skinned) and the House of Bëor were said to have some dark-skinned and even some 'swarthy' (One of Tolkien's archaisms) peoples. The Haladin are for me a mystery. Their relatives in Middle-Earth the Gwathuirim, were dark-skinned. (Their descendants being the Bree-Men and Dunlendings, who are said to be dark skinned in the Appendix, hence their name.) So can the Haladin be seen as, like the Bëorians having a small or large amount of dark-skinned peoples? Of course at the time of the writing of the Narn, a lot of the Edain were fair-skinned, but a lot wouldn't have been 'golden-haired'. (Tolkien switches between the Hadorians and Bëorians when comparing them to the Haladin.) I'm not saying Tolkien was a racist, I'm questioning his perception of beauty, and how he continually describes 'fair-skinned' people as being beautiful (The Elves as a wholly fair-skinned race are often described as the epitome of beauty.)

But the Easterlings are described as being dark, but nowehre can I see mention that they would be specifically dark of skin rather than hair.

They are called the 'Swarthy Men'. 'Swarthy skinned' is a antiquated way of saying someone had dark skin.

They were short and broad, long and strong in the arm, and grew much hair on face and breast; their locks were dark as were their eyes, and their skins were sallow or swart Grey Annals (HoME 11)

this quote doesn't in any way mean that the women of Brodda's following would have been dark skinned and thus unattractive, rather that the daughters of Edain were of such beauty that the other women simply could not compare.

Yes the here fair-skinned daughters of the Edain against the swart and unlovely Easterlings-do you get the picture?


I would say all these have been taken out of context of the story itself, none of these on their own mean that the people being talked about are ugly because they are darkskinned.

Both Buldar and Hazad after having looked upon Elmar, the pale-skinned woman found that their own women are ugly in comparison. I don't see how I'm taking this out of context more so then you are in your unremitting support of Tolkien. You choose to look at the quotes in a stance that detracts from any racist elements and therefore you choose to interpret the texts from the stance that Tolkien's words are not based on race, you are reading into these statements as much as I am, I will interpret them how I will. When I reads Tolkien's works I really want to defend him, so I can understand your p.o.v, but when (for me) the racial partiality is obvious I wish to bring it up. Of course, Tolkien gew up in a era in which ignorance of other races led to what can now be seen as "racist" views. Mass immigration from the colonies hadn't started yet and so contact with African and Asian peoples would be limited.

The prejudice goes both ways you know, not all white people are racist towards the black, sometimes ( and more often than ever these days) it's the black being racist against the white, with the pretext "they are going to be prejudiced against me anyway, so I am going to counter taht before they even start...".

I really don't see the point of this statement it has Nothing to do with the topic at hand. Is this a remark aimed at me?

[Starflower]

no Inder it was NOT directed at you. What I was trying to say ...

Both Buldar and Hazad after having looked upon Elmar, the pale-skinned woman found that their own women are ugly in comparison.

Well I think that their aversion to their own women had more to do with Elmar's personal beauty and appearance than a general preference for fairskinned women over darkskinned ones. So, maybe the Easterling women were ugly or unattractive to men of their own race ( which cannot be completely true, otherwise there would be no Easterlings) but that cannot be because they were darkskinned, as the menfolk were of the same persuasion. It is not racist to prefer someone of another race over one of your own, racism is when you do not accept a person of another race than you , simply because of their race.
Here, I see nothing of the sort. It's a case of favouring one beautiful woman over others, that's a matter of opinion.
But wouldn;t in this case the fault lie more in the way of the Easterlings themselves than the Edain? I see nothing that would say that the Edain specifially disliked the Easterlings because of their skincolour, there were surely many other factors contributing to their common animosity.
And as in Tolkien's writings physical beauty is often associated with nobility, and goodness and all things good and great, logically what follows is that "bad" people are described as being physically unattractive. But that's not in any way unique to Tolkien, read any book of the genre and you find that evil = ugly, good=pretty. And it is the way that we humans as a race look at things, can you honestly say that you, Inderjit , have never seen a beautiful person and at least subconsciously labeled them as a "good person"?

[Eriol]

I don't think that it is even as simple as you said in Tolkien's work, Starflower. There are many examples of beautiful, evil people: Morgoth, Sauron, Maeglin... Drúedain were probably the ugliest people around, and they were unanimously good people, staunch enemies of Orcs.

But I think we're confusing aesthetic prejudice with racism (and I think this is your point, Starflower :)). Are they the same thing? I don't think so. To me, racism is a conscious theory, addressing differences of value between two races. Elrond's comment in the movie, "Men are weak", is a racist comment. If he had said "Men are ugly", it would not be racism -- or so I see it. It would be an aesthetic prejudice. Just as the Eldar (and I suppose everybody else :D) are prejudiced against the Naugrim. No one says that the Dwarves, though they are unlovely, are "worth less" than other peoples.

I see aesthetic prejudice of that sort in the real world all the time, and I find it hard to consider it racism. People have preferences. I have yet to meet one Scandinavian (and I know some :)) that does not have a very strong attraction for the brown/black women very common in Brazil. I know some Angolans too, and they are always impressed with blond women. It does not always work "away from your own kind", too; Japanese men and women, at least in literature, consider western (both black and white) types to be less lovely. That is literature data, I can't vouch for it... it comes mainly from novels like "Shogun" :).

[Starflower]

But I think we're confusing aesthetic prejudice with racism (and I think this is your point, Starflower

YES! thank you Eriol. That sums up my incoherent ramblings very well , it's what I was aiming at.

PS: I think the point in Sauron and Morgoth being beautiful was just that they were aiming to deceive, as those they walked among associated beauty with goodness.

[Inderjit S]

When did I ever claim that Tolkien was a racist. Have I not said on several occasions, that this was against my beliefs?

Well I think that their aversion to their own women had more to do with Elmar's personal beauty and appearance than a general preference for fairskinned women over darkskinned ones.

Then why have we in the (two?) occasions when Tolkien has gone explicitly gone into the choice between dark and pale skinned women we end up with statements such as "there were few women amongst his own following, and none to compare with the daughters of the Edain" and "but his mother he never forgot; and he took a wife late, for no woman of his own folk seemed desirable to him that knew what beauty in a woman might be" showing a differentiation between the two, that Buldar only knew 'beauty' when he saw Elmar and that the Women of Ulfang didn't compare to the Women of Hador. What else does it mean apart from physically? Brodda wasn't looking for some ubiquitous relationship based on love, he wanted to reproduce and have a heir, and the women of his folk didn't compare to the Haladin.

He only gleamed what beauty their was in a woman after seeing Elmar? What about the other women of his tribe? Were they all ugly too?

I'm not accusing Tolkien of being racist, don't put words into my mouth. I've already stated several times that Tolkien wasn't racist.

Eriol's theory might be the most sensible. But Tolkien still dwells on the 'fairness' of a person as attribute to his/her beauty.

[Malbeth]

Perhaps Tolkien thought fair women were more beautiful to his eyes...;)

[HLGStrider]

sucked into superficial beauty love like Beren was.

Harsh on the poor guy, aren't we?

I'm questioning his perception of beauty, and how he continually describes 'fair-skinned' people as being beautiful

I would personally always describe tall men and short women as beautiful. . .I know there are exceptions, but in general I like tall men and tend to make my female heroines short.

I also tend to make my good guys have dark hair and my bad guys have blond. I don't trust blond men. . .is there something wrong with me?

You choose to look at the quotes in a stance that detracts from any racist elements and therefore you choose to interpret the texts from the stance that Tolkien's words are not based on race, you are reading into these statements as much as I am, I will interpret them how I will.

I truly think it is harder to see them your way. For one thing, there is none of this really in the rest of his books.

Tolkien gew up in a era in which ignorance of other races led to what can now be seen as "racist" views.

I really hate this sort of logic. I don't like it when we put people down for the time they lived in. . .or when we put down a time. For one thing, place matters as much as time and person more than place. I think it is bad when we automatically assume that because of the age someone was in they held certain opinions or that certain opinions are wrong because they are aged.

We do have to consider that Tolkien probably liked fair skin better. That's his right, just as it is my right to have a problem with blonds, despite that I am a blond, I just don't like it in males.

Where was I? Umm. . .he also seems to have a thing for gray eyes and heighth. He uses the word ugly, or similar things, to mean apart from his ideal standard which would probably be the elves.

Good almost always shows in appearance. . .only when evil is trying to be deceptive does it do otherwise. Why? Because it is a black and white universe and bad is meant to scare you.

[HLGStrider]

oh, and I wanted to bring to light a similar thread I started on a somewhat different subject but similar subject if you know what I mean which you probably don't. . .here you go . . .

Thread on Dwarves. . . (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=13533)