Judging: Round 9 Ost-in-Edhil vs. Tolkienology

[Rhiannon]

This is the judging thread for the Round 9 Ost-in-Edhil vs. Tolkienology debate (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=373436#post373436). The topic was 'Who proved more detrimental to the good of the other peoples of Middle-Earth: The Noldorin Exiles or the lesser houses of Men?'

The judges are:
Scholars - Captain
Periaur - Aule
Outcasts - Rhiannon
Eruhíni - Nevavarein
Neutral - Ithrynluin

[Lhunithiliel]

Our best greetings to the honourable Jury!

************************************

Say, Rhiann, who is Captain? (GoSch)

[Rhiannon]

The one who's not my arch-nemisis ;)

[Aulë]

Topic: 'Who proved more detrimental to the good of the other peoples of Middle-Earth: The Noldorin Exiles or the lesser houses of Men?'


As I was reading the debate, I felt that the Tolkienologists got off on the wrong foot. They were not so much saying that the Noldor were more detrimental to the other people of Middle Earth than the LHOM (Lesser-Houses of Men), but rather saying that they had done more wrong by being detrimental to the people of Middle Earth. Although their 'bias' proposal was quite an interesting thought.
Ost-in-Edhil started nicely, with Arvedui setting the scene with the major damaged caused by the LHOM, although Eriol was quick to point out that the LHOM did not directly cause the destruction of Gondolin and Doriath.

Lhun started off by saying that the LHOM didn't come to Beleriand to cause harm, but rather came through grief, whilst the Noldor came to Middle Earth with the intent to cause harm. Once again, this isn't the topic. Their intentions aren't a part of the topic; rather, the results of their actions are.
Her second post finally got to the topic at hand: the damage caused by the Noldor (Yay :) ). This included the results of the Doom of Mandos, and their lack of cooperation with the Sindar and Men. Lhun also pointed out that the Noldor brought many good things to Middle Earth, but they were still not enough to counterbalance the bad things that the Noldor created.

In Arvedui's second post, the damages by the LHOM in the Third Age was introduced. He also picked up on something that I would not have considered: the Nazgúl. He then tried to place the blame of the fall of Gondolin on the LHOM because of Hurin's involvement. He acknowledged that Hurin wasn't of the LHOM, but he was captured because of the LHOM. A long shot, but a shot still the same.

Lhun and Arvedui the argued about the reasoning behind the Men coming to Beleriand- something that I found irrelevent to the topic.
Then Lhun pointed out that the Noldor were the ones that brought Ulfang and his Men into the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I felt that it was a good point for the GoT. She also said that the Noldor were the initiators of the wars in Beleriand- I felt that those actions were a 'good' thing, but would OiE pick up on that? Lhun then said that the LHOM's actions were but a consequence of the actions of the Noldor.

Arvedui then said that it was not the Noldor, but Morgoth who involved the LHOM in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Lhun interpreted the quote that Arvedui used in a different way, but I felt more inclined to agree with Arvedui: the fact still stands that Morgoth was the one to bring Ulfang and Bor into the war, and since they were the ones to cause detriment to Middle Earth, the Noldor can't be blamed for that.

Lhun then started talking about all the good things that the Noldor brought to Middle Earth. 'Why is she doing that?' I thought to myself 'isn't that something that could outweigh the bad things they did?'. She then continued by saying that it was because of these riches that the evil Men came to Beleriand. A cute theory, but I still was more convinced by Arvedui that Morgoth brought Men such as Ulfang and Bor into the war- the ones that were detrimental to Middle Earth.
Lhun then decided to get into the 'nitty gritty': the Noldor making war with Morgoth to seek the Silmailli. Very good, but a double-edged sword since the attacks on Morgoth would, if successful, prove to be a good thing for Middle Earth, not detrimental at all. But as we know, they weren't successful...

Eriol then appeared again. He basically said what Arvedui had already done- say that Gondolin was not destroyed directly by the LHOM. But he did not address the point that Arvedui had made about how the LHOM were the reason for Hurin's capture (and therefore Gondolin's Fall).

Arvedui quickly pounced on what I had thought before with Lhun's post: that the Noldor's treasures and kingdoms were a good thing. He then tried to rebutt Lhun's point about the Noldor creating war because of the Silmarils. I didn't really agree with it, since although Morgoth may have triggered the Noldor to do so, they still did it, which proved detrimental to Middle Earth. He went with the point I noticed before, with how the Noldor attacking Morgoth was a good thing- but the results show otherwise, with the wars proving to be a bad thing for the people of Middle Earth.

Gothmog then decided to show his head. He showed how the Noldor brought peace to Beleriand for a time, and enlightened the Edain in many ways. Certainly good things.
He then says how the actions of the LHOM were all bad, whilst that of the Noldor were mostly good. He then said how the destruction of Beleriand throughout the wars was because of Morgoth, not the Noldor- disagreeing with Lhun, and saying that the good deeds of the Noldor did outweigh the bad deeds.

Ravenna then speaks about the motives behind the actions. I did not find this to influential to my decision- it is the actions that proved detrimental to Middle Earth, not the motives behind them.

Lhun then tried to argue once more that the Noldor's bad actions were more numerous that the good actions. She made some good points about how many Men lost their lives fighting for the Noldor's selfish cause. She then made another good point about how not all the LHOM turned to Morgoth in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. She then added that the LHOM fled after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I was still waiting for the OiE to raise some more points about the LHOM in the time after the War of Wrath though...
She then went over the 4 wars in the 1st Age that the Noldor were involved in, saying how the Noldor unnessesarily provoked Morgoth into war on a few occasions, and how they turned Morgoth's mind towards destroying ME instead of just occupying it. And also how these wars proved extremely detrimental to Beleriand. These couple of posts by Lhun swayed me towards GoT stance.

Eriol then made some good points at why the LHOM aren't to blame for the fall of Gondolin, and finally brought the 2nd and 3rd Ages back into the debate! :D Yay! The Rings of Power! Pheew- I thought they'd never bring it up ;) Points for the GoT there.

Gothmog then said that without the Noldor, there would be no peace, and that Melkor would have taken over ME. I agreed with that, but it did not mean the Noldor didn't cause detriment to ME whilst foiling Melkor's plans. The Noldor's actions may have been a lesser evil than what Melkor would have done, but it still caused harm and loss to the people of Middle Earth.

Finduilas then mentioned the things that Finwe and Feanor did in Valinor that were detrimental, which was odd, since that had nothing to do with the topic. That is, until she made the connection to the troubles in Middle Earth. Very good. Lhun then says what I had felt about Gothmog's previous post.

Gothmog then brings up the Nazgul point again. He didn't really convince me that the Noldor had no bad part to play in the Rings of Power saga. The LHOM proved detrimental as the Nazgul, and the Noldor proved detrimental in making those Rings. He then talks about the Easterners in the 2nd and 3rd Age, and Ulfang and Bor's treachery. A very strong post.

Findi puts forward a very good point- how the demise of the Noldor was very detrimental to ME. The loss of such skillful beings would have been extreme.

[Aulë]

Gothmog then goes on to say that the Noldor's wars weren't detrimental, and if the Noldor hadn't appeared, the LHOM would have been just as detrimental. But I don't see how, since Melkor would have already had control of ME by the time Men awoke. I think that Gothmog got a bit mixed up about what Lhun was talking about there.
He then gets back on track and pretty much counters Findi's point, then mentions the 'good' that eventuated from the Noldor's actions. He also mentions that the LHOM restricted the development of the Gondorians in the 3rd age. Good point.

Lhun then put forward yet another good post, which kept with her previous line of arguements- saying that the Noldor's good intentions did prove detrimental in the end. She then says that the LHOM were only majorly detrimental in one battle in the the first two ages, and were not a key force in the third age. I agreed with the surmise about the first two ages, but she didn't convince me about the LHOM's actions in the third age.

Posted by Eriol
No, Men were taught by Dwarves...far worse teachers than the Valar.
Now now, let's not be harsh on my children. ;)

Eriol then talks about who influenced who to perform their actions, something that got more discussion that it deserved in this debate methinks. He then confirms what the GoT had made me think about the Noldor forging the Rings of Power.
He then finally chalks some 'good' up on the board for the LHOM, with their battles against Angmar. A few of them fought against Arnor, but the majority fought against the Witch-King.
He also adds that the Noldor were 'slightly' prejudiced, and would not share info with the LHOM, which could be considered detrimental.

Arvedui then reminds us that the Noldor brought peace to southern Beleriand whilst being a bulwark in the north. He then speaks of the harm caused by the LHOM in the second and third age. Then makes a very good point that the LHOM proved more detrimental to ME by joining forces with the 'Big Evil' (Morgoth then Sauron) than the Noldor did by fighting against it.

Eriol then makes a vital point (again)- Breelanders, Men of Dale, and Rhovianions/Rohirrm. All of which were the model of 'good' on the thord age. And how the Haradrim and Dunlandings may have been 'good' had it not been for the Noldor. A very good point that I was waiting all debate for. The actions of the Rohirrm speak for themselves. The LHOM weren't all evil, and perhaps the actions of these 'good' Men make up for the actions by the 'bad' Men...
He then says how the actions of the Noldor (forging of the Rings of Power) restricted the development of the LHOM (Rhovanion) in the 3rd Age.

Gothmog then sums up by saying how the treachery of Ulfang had huge consequences apon ME. How without it, the damage apon ME would have been restricted to the area around Angband. And how Ulfang's descendants kept on fighting for Melkor, and the Eldar and Men were forever estranged because of it.
He then tries to put down the Noldor's role in the Rings of Power. Something I didn't agree with. They made those rings, and because of that (with Sauron's lies) great damage was inflicted over ME for many years.
He then summarizes the OiE's debate.

Lhun then wraps up the GoT's arguements in a well structured and thought-out post. I preferred their 'B' and 'C' arguements more than the 'A' arguement, although Findi made a few good points regarding it.

Basically, this came down to who caused the greatest damage, harm and loss to ME: The Noldor or the LHOM.

It was a very close debate, that swung either way throughout, but I give by vote to the Guild of Tolkienology thanks to some very good theories by everyone in their team. This is taking nothing away from OiE- they were fantastic, but GoT was too good on the day.

A wonderful debate.

[Nevavarein]

I'll post my judge in a second, I have to read it all first (I haven't been able to read any of it before this time now, so this will take a little while)

[Ithrynluin]

Excellent opening post by Arvedui, supported by quotes and logic.

Eriol presents us with an interesting idea that the histories were passed down to us by Men who in turn received it from the Elves, which would make all those accounts one sided and prone to show men in a bad light. Actually, many concepts were changed by Men and molded to fit Mannish myths and way of thinking...
And what about the Athrabeth? We see Men being evaluated by Men, and in an utmost negative manner. Elves gave Men many names, some with positive connotatons, others with negative, and yet others that are more or less neutral. I don't see this as being a biased point of view. Some Elves could be petty, intolerant, unenlightened...they were not a flawless species. All those names for Men just go to show this.
IMHO, this point did not contribute much to GoT's case.

Lhun says: "For not much comment needs the fact that they set ME on fire, leading destructive wars, involving in them all the races…. Pretty detrimental, don’t you agree?"
Morgoth was a threat to all the people of the world, the Noldor were those who had the means to oppose him most efficiently! And if it weren't for them, there may have been darkness in Middle Earth - for the Sindar, for the Naugrim, for Men...Which makes their presence in ME pretty beneficial, don't you think?

GoT used the quote 'and the mortals that became entangled in their fate...' as clear cut proof of how detrimental the deeds of the Noldor were for the whole race of Men. Actually, the Noldor enriched the race of Men, both 'academically' and 'genetically'- giving them a strain of the elder children that enriched the race of Men.

OiE spreads their argument into the Third Age, and furthers their stance by showing more detrimental actions by lesser Men

Arvedui goes on to show how lesser Men DID have something to do with the ruin of Gondolin. Very good, not to mention cunning. :D

GoT says: 'And WHO was the initiator of the worst conflicts and wars in Beleriand? - the Noldor.
Who involved Ulfang and his men in a war? - the Noldor.'
I saw this as a somewhat feeble attempt to place all the blame on the Noldor. Morgoth was not a demi god whose wrath was incurred by the Noldor and who came to Middle Earth to pester other races as well, only because the Noldor had provoked him. Melkor hated all sentient life equally. He wanted to dominate it or annihilate it. All races were threatened by the horror that is Morgoth.

Gothmog provides a great quote from HoME X which is certainly NOT detrimental to the cause of OiE ;)

Good argument by Eriol: 'If two people steal bread, we are more lenient towards the one who is starving than towards the one who is well fed. And according to that criterion, the Noldor were much better fed -- in all accounts.', though countered well enough by Gothmog later on.


The other half of the debate became rather tedious to plod through. Both teams became enmeshed in explaining their arguments from A to Z, which resulted in many a needless repetitions!

Overall, I was not too convinced by the arguments put forth by the GoT at the beginning of the debate. Quite a few of these failed to take into account numerous aspects of specific events or concepts. Gradually their case grew stronger and stronger, yet OiE still emerged stronger in the end. OiE also had the easier side to argue I believe. My vote goes to the fortress of the Eldar.

[Rhiannon]

I am finding this debate extremely difficult to judge! I seriously considered calling it a draw. Both sides were very thorough, though some of the arguments I found most interesting weren't followed up. I was very impressed with both Arvedui and Eriol's opening arguments, though at the midpoint it seemed both teams became stuck in who was less detrimental, which veered from the topic of the debate.

All of the participants argued very effectively, but I was most convinced by Eriol's argument The record shows that the two kinds of evil were of the same magnitude; a biased record shows that. The Noldor had much more opportunities (they "should have known better") to avoid falling for Morgoth’s lies, which were at the base of both evils. And so their weakness was proved to be more detrimental to the good of the peoples of Middle-Earth.
which I felt was well defended later in the debate.

So, my vote goes to the Guild of Tolkienology

And I apologise again to both guilds for all of the confusion I caused; you carried out a brilliant and fascinating debate in spite of me!

[Lhunithiliel]

Errrrr.......
Could someone tell what the outcome of this debate is going to be, please?

So far three judges have posted.
Could the rest two do the same , so we could finalize this Round :)

[Rhiannon]

I've tried to contact both of the late judges- one hopes to post sometime this week, the other hasn't recieved my message. If neither of them post this week I will replace them, with the permission of the Guilds. I'm sorry for the delay!

[Lhunithiliel]

Well....... Who knows.......
It might come to the decision of ONLY ONE ot the two missing judges! ;) :D

The score up till now is 2:1 for GoT !

( Lhun's praying for a third vote in our favour!)

[Gil-Galad]

Rhiannon I just want to remind you that Black Captain is not anymore in TTF,so you have to find somebody to replace him from GoS. :)
By the way it seems that the debate was really tough!!!2 judges have not decided yet :D

[Rhiannon]

Bethelarian has agreed to judge on behalf of the Eruhíni- I hope this is acceptable to the guilds, and I apologize for the delay!

[Bethelarien]

Vaca sagrada! That is one of the bloody longest debates I've ever read. My goodness.

Well, here I am to save the day!

Honestly, this was probably the worst debate I've ever judged, not because it was bad, but because it was so good. Confound it, couldn't you guys have made it just a teensy bit easier? And then, of course, there was Aule's abhorrently long judgement...;)

Well, after finishing reading the entire blasted thing, I've come to a decision. You guys are going to hate me. :D

Both sides presented powerful arguements. I liked how nearly all of the arguement was quoted, in context, from Tolkien's works. Heaven knows I take quotes out of context all the time. :D GoT's arguements were very persuasive, especially in the beginning. OiE's arugements, I thought, became more persuasive toward the end.

All in all, OiE managed to persuade me. So my vote goes to Ost-in-Edhil. :D Sorry for tying it up.

[Gothmog]

I am pleased to see that you enjoyed judging our little discussion so much :D . Don't worry that your judgement made is all-square, this just means that we are still interested in what the last judge has to say. :)

[Gil-Galad]

I still think that this debate was the best one from all the debates!!!!
It is a pleasure for me to re-read it and re-read it.One can learn so many things from it :)
And we are still in the game ;)

[baragund]

Hi Guys,

Captain told me he won't be able to judge this debate so I'm going to fill in for him. Bear with me for a little while longer because I'm judging another debate at the moment. But soon I'll employ my highly analytical and objective judging criteria (based on who employed the cleverest use of smilies:) ) and get this wrapped up.

I can hear Lhun grinding her teeth all the way across the ocean...:D

[Lhunithiliel]

What is upon you, my friend!!!!???!!!
Judging TWO of the GoT debates???

:eek: :p

*****..........to her beast:"Steady boy! Steady!... Let him make his move first!.......****

[baragund]

Hoo-Boy!! Baragund finally gets his act together to post his judgment. We’re approaching two months since this debate started and we’re still working on the judgments. Like I said before, these things can’t be rushed, like the aging of a fine wine or single malt scotch.

The question at hand is who proved more detrimental to the good of the other peoples of Middle-earth: The Noldorin Exiles or the lesser houses of Men? The Guild of Tolkienology took the position that it was the Noldor while the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil argued that it was the lesser houses of Men.

The GoT argument rested most heavily on the following points:

1. As a race, the Noldor were more enlightened and should have known better than to heed the counsels of Melkor that led to their rebellion. Being left to more or less fend for themselves, Men did not have the ability or the opportunity to see through Melkor’s lies. (And then all that talk about food and chefs left me hungry.)
2. The wars fought against Melkor in the First Age the that were led mostly by the Noldor were devastating and that the Noldor came to ME as conquerors in their own right.
3. The Noldor spurned the lesser houses and gave only the Edain their favor and friendship. This led to the subsequent bad behavior of the lesser houses.
4. The malice and corruption of Melkor was more strongly demonstrated in the case of the Noldor.
5. The written record was biased in favor of the Elves because they are the ones who wrote the Silmarillion at the expense of Men.

OiE rested their arguments on the following:

1. The treachery of the lesser houses in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.
2. The ongoing allegiances of the lesser houses to Sauron in the 2nd and 3rd Ages.
3. The net positive effects of the wars of the 1st Age that sapped Melkor’s strength sufficiently so he could be removed from Arda by the rest of the Valar in the War of Wrath without destroying all of Middle-earth.

I considered OiE to have the defensive position because the conventional wisdom is the lesser houses typically are associated with ‘the bad guys’ and the Noldor are usually considered ‘the good guys’. It was the job of OiE to fend off the challenges to that conventional wisdom presented by GoT.

First I’ll discuss the GoT arguments:

Regarding the ‘Noldor should have known better’ argument: I considered this to be addressing the cause of the behaviors of the two sides while the debate question was really driving at the effects of their behaviors. Even though both sides spent a lot of effort debating who should have known what and who was at fault, to me it all missed the point.

Regarding the wars of the First Age: Lhun correctly pointed out that the Noldor did not have the noblest of intentions when they arrived in Beleriand. They were driven by vengeance over the theft of the Silmarils and a perception of liberating themselves from the dominion of the Valar. However, I thought she took that line of thinking too far when she described them as conquerors. I don’t think the Noldor intended to exert domination over the indigenous peoples of ME. They just wanted a place where they could live in freedom. But, most importantly, I could not go along with the notion that the wars were detrimental. I found myself agreeing with the OiE position that the 400 some years of relative peace and freedom, and the sapping of Melkor’s strength made the wars worthwhile.

The fact that it was Lhun making this argument was interesting. The message I got from her arguments here was that it is preferable to live in peace as a slave under an oppressive ruler than to fight for freedom. As a resident of the former Soviet bloc, I was struck by how difficult and painful that must have been for her and my hat's off to her for making such elaborate and powerful arguments for this position. But there sure seemed to me parallels that could be drawn between the position she was arguing and the situation of the Warsaw Pact countries from 1945-1991. I have not had any such experiences but from my limited viewpoint, it would be preferable to be fighting for freedom

Regarding the spurning of the lesser houses by the Noldor: Two issues made this argument lose its credibility. First, the Noldor stayed in Beleriand. I didn’t think it reasonable to reach out the societies in the far-flung eastern regions of ME when they had their hands more than full with Melkor in their own back yard. Second, I agreed with the OiE position that the Noldor, via Maedhros, did reach out to the lesser houses and were rewarded with treachery at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. After that, they became estranged and it was a situation of ‘Once bitten, twice shy’.

Regarding the degree of corruption by Melkor: Again, this is really dealing with the causes of the actions by the Noldor and the lesser houses, not the effects.

Regarding bias: I was really intrigued by GoT’s assertion of bias in the written record as suggested by Eriol in his first post. He made me wonder what the history of ME through the 1st Age would sound like as written by, say, Bor or Ulfang. Also, OiE did not counter it so Eriol’s post was left to influence my decision unchallenged. I am curious, however, why this was not reiterated for the GoT concluding post.


Now the OiE arguments:

Regarding the treachery at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears: It’s hard to dispute the events and GoT tried to diffuse this by making excuses for them like ‘they were misled and they didn’t know better’ or ‘not ALL of them betrayed the West’.

Regarding the ongoing allegiance to Sauron in the 2nd and 3rd ages: Yes, the Men of Numenor, Gondor and Arnor could have done a much better job reaching out to the lesser houses but we are talking about the Noldorin Exiles, not the Dunedain. The fact remains that the Men of the far east and the south remained loyal to Sauron through both ages and, to me, the excuse that ‘they didn’t know better’ did not address their detrimental effects on the other peoples of ME.

Regarding the net positive effects of the wars of the 1st Age: Already discussed above.


*Drum roll, please.* I give this debate to the GUILD OF OST-IN-EDHIL.


This was an OUTSTANDING debate!! It had some of the best analyses I have read through the entire tournament and I congratulate both teams. Thanks again for letting me be a part of it. I truly enjoyed it!

[Gothmog]

I wish to thank Rhiannon for such an interesting topic for the debate. My thanks also the the judges for their time and effort in reading this short discussion ;) and the thoughtfull and thought-provoking judgements each posted.

To the Guild of Tolkienology. My congratulations and deepest thanks to each of you for the work you put in to make this such a wonderful debate. :) I look forward to another discussion at a later date. (when we have fully recovered from this one. :D)

[Rhiannon]

Thank you, baragund.

Congratulations to Ost-in-Edhil!

This wonderful debate was unfortunately plagued by one technical difficulty after another, due in no small part to my total incompetence. To the guilds, the participants, and the judges, my sincere apologies, and thank you for your courtesy through-out.

Gothmag, credit for the debate topic goes to my friend Eikaron Hiro, who helped me brainstorm.