Judgment, Round 9: Guild of Outcasts vs. Guild of the Periaur

[Elfarmari]

This is the thread for judging this debate (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13640) .
The judges are:
Gothmog for Ost-in-Edhil
Lhunithiliel for the Tolkienologists
reem for neutral
Omnipotent_elf for the Eruhini
and myself for Guild of Scholar's Hall.

Judges: please post as soon as you have come to a decision.

[omnipotent_elf]

Excellent debate all. Congradulations especially to Nom on her outstanding ability to debate greatly, and convincingly, by herself against an entire team.

both teams challenged their oppenent while succesfully composing their point of view

after thoroughly reading both arguments, my descision is for the
guild of Perieur

i felt that Nom's argument, which while brilliantly argued *claps and cheers for Nom's efforts*, focused too greatly on possibilities, not really sticking to one and convincing me of it. I felt that, because of this, guild of Perieur were more convincing.

however, i would also like to say that this has been the toughest debate i have ever had to debate over, but the quality of it meant that i had to give a vote. However, the calibre each team showed demonstrated that every vote in this debate will be a VERY hard descision.

I applaud both teams, for a wonderful debate. I thouroughly enjoyed reading it, and can empathise with both opinions,
thankyou for that

Omni





Sidenote: Aule, i'm interested in this theory
Good Men + Evil Influence = Evil Men
if i understand that correctly, evil is more powerfull then good?

[Elfarmari]

Omnipotent_elf, please clean out your pm box! I sent you several pm's, but was unable to get through. . .

[omnipotent_elf]

sorry elfamari. The box is now clean...

[Lhunithiliel]

First of all, I would like to congratulate both teams for their efforts in debating on the given topic!

Now... everyone who knows me on these boards also knows that I am one of the most "passionate" supporters of "What if"-scenarios (have I not invented the "What if? - game" ;) )!

But it is also my personal opinion that when it comes to a "schollary" approach to a topic being discussed or/and debated, it is better to stay as further as possible from such scenarios and stick as much as possible to the facts and to the story as it goes. In "What if"-scenarios everything is possible!

Therefore, when deciding who my vote would go to, I tried to follow this principle.

I liked very much Nom's theory about "What if men had stayed in Beleriand and unite with the rest of the peoples there. To be honest, it had never before crossed my mind. That is why I was very much looking forward that Nom would be able to convince the Periaur in this theory. Unfortunately she could not.

What was really well done by her, was to work on some of the facts and comments by Tolkien himself, concerning the fall of the Numenoreans and the Periaur here could do little to counter her because they would found themselves in the position of countering the author himself. And they of course could not do that!

There have been some points raised by both teams that were only touched and then left undeveloped as for example the role of the Gods in giving Numenor to the Edain in the first place.

Finally, both teams focused mainly on the issue of the First fall of Men as the reason for them being weak and therefore susseptable to Evil which finally led to their Second Fall. A lot has been said here by both teams and good arguments have been provided from both sides.

Reading through them all, I was still waiting for the one or the other team to convince me in the "right"-ness of their arguments, but it seemed they were equal in their efforts.

However the final post of Snaga provided those facts and arguments that convinced me as a judge to this debate to give my vote to the Periaur.

Well done all of you!
****

[Gothmog]

This has been a great debate. Both sides had much to work with and did so. I congratulate both teams for this. It has taken me some time to work through the posts to come to a decision about it.

The question debated was "Was the gift of the Valar to Men of Andor after the First Age ultimately beneficial or detrimental to the Edain?"

Nóm claimed that the long-term Interests of the Edain would have been better served by their remaining in Middle-earth due to the destruction of most of the Númenorians when Númenor was destroyed. Also she claims that being separated and in a way "protected" from the evils of ME actually weakened the Edain where they needed to be strong. This seems to be of the idea that "what does not kill you will make you stronger". Further claims of the GoO was that the fact that Númenor was close enough to the Undying Lands as to allow Tol Eressëa to be seen by Númenorians. This it is claimed had much to do with the envy of the Edain.

The Periaur claimed that had the Edain stayed in ME they would have fallen sooner to the Shadow and that being apart from ME allowed them to increase to a point that they could not have had Númenor not been given to them. As for the position of Númenor so close to the Undying Lands, the Periaur say that this made no difference to the fall of the Edain.

Both sides gave very good arguments to support their position and worked hard to refute that of the other. However, Nóm was able to give very good support to her view of how the Edain would fare in ME by showing that their kin that stayed in the west of ME did not fall under the shadow even after the downfall of Númenor itself. She also showed that Sauron came to an island where the people were for the most part ready for him to turn to the worship of Melkor. Unfortunately The Periaur were not able to convince me that the views of the GoO on these two important points were incorrect.

Therefore I give my vote to the Guild of Outcasts

[Elfarmari]

I would also like to congratulate Nóm for running her team single-handedly. For most of the debate, I was persuaded by her arguments that although many good things happened because of Numenor, the Fall of Numenor meant that it was not ultimately beneficial.
originally posted by Nóm
While they had bliss for a long time before the shadow sunk back into their hearts, and they did more mighty and skilled, I agrue these things were not 'ultimately' beneficial, but rather the result of Numenor, and major causes of the ruin of Numenor and most of the Edain.
. . . . .
It was the cause of the awakening of the dread of mortality and the cause of jealous envy and eventual resentment of the Undying Lands and their people. This was the fall of the Edain.
. . . . .
The Edain grew more mighty in Numenor, but lost it all. Not a benefit ultimately.
. . . . .
So dwelling in Numenor, and with a long life, was the deadly combination. Men were left in paradise to have great achievements and possessions, they could actually sea Eressea, and were bound to become great Mariners. In Middle-earth they'd have been busy dealing with orc attacks and whatnot, and Eressea would just remain a distant name. Some may become great Mariners, but as good as the Numenoreans? They'd be able to explore the lands without need of ships.
. . . . .
Sauron did not cause people to fall under the old shadow, but only toyed with men who already had.
. . . . .
So I am thinking the Edain would have lasted if not for Numenor. But even aside from that, they ended because of it. Most of them in a very ugly end... not just the island going under but their later days of Morgoth worship.

In response to Nóm's argument that had the Edain remained in Middle Earth they would not have been corrupted, I think Aulë made a good point:
You may think 'The Men of Gondor were not corrupted by Sauron'; but Sauron's main way of corruption people was by using fair disguises to lull the victim into a false sense of security. Once he had lost this ability, his only way to corrupt was to capture the victim by force and torment them.
also:
Numenor was an integral part of Sauron's destruction. And going by your approach of ignoring any 'what if' scenarios, we have to say that it was a good thing for the Edain (and the rest of the people of Middle Earth) that Numenor was given as a gift to the Edain since the largest evil factor remaining in the world was destroyed because of it.
Snaga1 was the one who persuaded me that the gift of Numenore was ultimately beneficial to the Edain, not because it prevented their Fall, but because it brought Mortal civilization to its zenith of knowledge and peace.
originally posted by snaga1
But is a life not ‘ultimately beneficial' because it comes to an end? I believe it is. That Numenor provided a wonderful home for many many people who lived wonderful lives is worthy and laudable even for its own sake.
. . . . .
Faramir instructs Frodo that before a meal in Gondor they look west to Numenor and Elvenhome: it is an inspiration to them. It shows them the greatness that Men can achieve, and they revere it: they do not curse its name or bow their heads in shame.
. . . . .
But, luckily, the King did NOT get suckered into taking a ring. Why not? Because he was on Numenor! Ta-da!!
. . . . .
It is in the nature of Men to fail, to fall. They are not perfect or divine. To argue that Numenor caused their Fall is mistaken.
. . . . .
But the cause is in their imperfect nature, in the very marring of Arda. But to claim that they would not have fallen under the Shadow in Middle Earth is to dispute the very nature of Men.
. . . . .
Evil has many ways of working, and if the Shadow fell upon Numenor, it was at least averted for a great length of time. . . For centuries they grew in stature, in wisdom and in power. They reached the greatest state that Man could achieve. It was an enduring benefit: a model for the Edain to aspire to ever since, and an inspiration in dark times.
The arguments put forth by the Periaur which successfully convinced me are summarized very well by snaga1 in his final post:
To conclude: to think that there would be some escape from the Fall in Middle Earth is a delusion. Only in Numenor was there an escape for a time. And there, they built a civilisation whose legacy was one of inspiration to the foes of Sauron that endured, through to their eventual victory. Not for nothing did Aragorn have joy at the finding of the scion of the White Tree on the slopes of Mount Mindolluin.
My vote is given to the Guild of the Periaur, but it was a hard fought debate. Congratulations to both sides!

[reem]

Very sorry everyone for taking so long to post!
I just finished reading the entire debate, and I must admit that at many points I was greatly undecided and confused:)
This is mostly because of the very good arguments both sides put up:)
At first I leaned towards the arguments of the GoP...but after going throught the later posts of Nom, I have come to change my mind about Numernor and it's benefits.

The question was whether the gift of Numenor was
ultimately beneficial or detrimental to the Edain. 'Edain' being the three houses only, and not the entire race of Men.
Yes, it is true that Numenor helped in the ultimate distruction of Sauron, but then again, there were very few of the Edain left.

In the words of Tolkien himself "Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment".
It cannot be denied that Numenor helped in the development of the Edain and the increase of their wisdom. But would it not also be true that their dwelling amongst the Eldar and the other races of ME would have also increased their wisdom and knowledge?

Both sides agreed that:
1) the Edain would have grown and learned much if they had stayed with the Elves in Beleriand
2)the Edain would always have that fear of death and jealousy of the Edain
3)the Edain were already marred because of Morgoth's influence on Middle-earth.

And it is true that it was Sauron that finally tipped the Numenoreans over to the dark side, and yet it was their lust for immortality and greatness that had made them such ready listeners.

All in all, it is my opinion that Numenor was not so beneficial for the Edain in the end.
I vote for the GoO.
reem

[Elfarmari]

Ok, so here are the results of the judging:

Me: Periaur
reem: Outcasts
Gothmog: Outcasts
Lhunithiliel: Periaur
Omnipotent_elf: Periaur

Final result: Periaur 3, Outcasts 2

This was a hard-fought debate, congratulations to both sides!:)

[Snaga]

Yay!:D

I have to say this was one of the hardest but also fairest and most honest debates I have been in. And therefore the most enjoyable.:)