An idea: The New Mythology Project [ALL READ]

[Snaga]

I have an idea for a new TTF project. I hope you like it. Let me know!:)

What I wanted to do was create, over a long period, a new mythology, in a similar manner to Tolkien's work. The difference being that this would be a collective effort, by anyone wanting to contribute.

How I imagine this working is that people can contribute 'tales' of one sort or another, which would form the basis of a mythological structure that we would create. Over time the tales would be modified, embellished, improved etc, and we would flesh out the geography, the languages, the cultures etc etc.

To do this will require a lot of work, both creatively and organisationally, but if all goes well we will make over time a body of work that will be immensely satisfying. As well as that, we will get a new insight into the amazing achievement of Tolkien.
From Publishers Weekly about The History of Middle Earth:
One marvels anew at the depth, breadth, and persistence of J.R.R. Tolkien's labour. No one sympathetic to his aims, the invention of a secondary universe, will want to miss this chance to be present at the creation. Well, rather than witnessing it, we can in a sense emulate it. Perhaps not in quality, but at least in spirit.

Does anyone else like this idea?

[Nóm]

I like the idea very much. :)


I guess one area where this will differ greatly from the manner in which Tolkien created his mythology is that it will not be created for the sake of providing a setting for the languages to both exit in and have, in principle, evolved in, but rather for the sake of creating a mythology (Probably in final form?). Because the mythology is to be created for a different reason than Tolkien's legendarium, I am thinking the languages will probably be introduced to the mythology as a very late step in the process and because of this can be fitted during creation to the already existing history and peoples.

This could be a plus in that it will give the appearance of real languages deep in the myths.... all names will be in the langauge they sould be in and can in most cases (depending on what people want) be given according to their meaning, but without the huge complication of developing the tales and languages side by side for the sake of creating rather than reaching a final form. Or at least, I suppose this will be the case... at least in the beginning ;).

Just a guess based on what I assume to be the purpose and goal of this... Snaga, correct me if you have something else in mind. I just think this is something best established very early on... or at least it is the first thing to come to my mind.

But anyhow, regardless of exactly how you want to do this, it should be extremely fun and fulfilling project.

[Lantarion]

It sounds fascinating and wonderful! Except that I am actually in the process of creating exactly what you're talking about myself, and I would feel a little uncomfortable bringing out my ideas (which are beginning to be pretty extensive, as I've been working on it steadily for well over a year now).. I guess I'm too possessive or something. :p
But as my main 'project' within this larger endeavour at this time is the developing of languages and their respective roots (and the interconnections between those roots), and as my mythological side is more like Prototype A right now (though I will probably keep it) I would really like to develop a pantheon/pantheons, religion(s) and/or mythological celestial aspects of this project idea you have.
It would help me develop my own ideas on mythology, I'm sure, by writing something like this.. I will do my best. :)

So how will this be organized? Should people just start writing stuff and post them every now and again?


PS: Just so everyone knows: I HAVE DIBS ON THE MYTHOLOGY!!! :D ;)

[Manveru]

I'm looking forward to see (maybe even participate--if I may be of some help;)) how this idea will be 'evolving'.
Originally posted by Lantarion:
PS: Just so everyone knows: I HAVE DIBS ON THE MYTHOLOGY!!! :D;)
Originally posted by Lantarion:
I guess I'm too possessive or something.:p
Hmm...;)

[Snaga]

Excellent! I'm glad you guys like the idea.:)

GOALS AND PURPOSES:

The aim is creation of a secondary world. In as rich a manner as we can achieve.

Nom: I agree that the languages will support the narrative, rather than the narrative being a vehicle for the languages. On the other hand, I feel that a lot of things can be developed 'side by side'. Once a name of a person or a place has been established (or put forward) it is open to linguistic interpretation. How did the name come about? Who named it? What does the name signify? These are all valid questions that can be asked immediately, with some sort of linguistic structure emerging latter I would imagine. It really depends on who has the knowledge and enthusiasm to work on that aspect. I would be intrigued by work on names and meaning but I lack the skill to develop language in a more structure manner.

ORGANISATION:

Lantarion: this will be a critical point. I want to have enough organisation to keep things moving along, and not so much that it restricts creativity.

I am thinking that early on we need to get some ideas up on the board, so that we have a jumping off point. As things go we will need to have a method of approving new work. I think the best way is to have 3 categories of work:

(1) Firmly established work. This is the stuff we are going to 'test' other work against. Radical alteration of these tales is unlikely (although extension of stories, re-writing for style not content is acceptable)

(2) Work we think is right. Work that feels right, but may need editting or comparing with other stories for consistency

(3) New work awaiting approval. A sort of 'wait-pen'.

Implicit in this is the idea that there must be some method of gaining agreement for material as it arises. That needs to be authoritative, open, and non-elitist. I don't have specific ideas for this. I'm open to suggestions.

Also I feel quite strongly that people should contribute material, open to the idea that others will adapt and alter things. This is, I believe, in the spirit of myth making: that tales get continually refined and reshaped, as one person tells another, who then tells a third. That way, we should move to better and better quality.

There are going to be a lot of questions to consider, that are fundamental to the character of our creation. Questions such as magic (what is it, how much, who has it); what creatures exist in the world, and what races? What are their characteristics? A whole heap of things....

Finally, if there appears to be enough enthusiasm for the idea, I think it will need its own guild space, to allow us to organise it properly.

I'm absolutely sure we can create something really great, and any help that is going, great or small, will be really appreciated. Even if it is just for people to read what is written and saying which things really grab them.:) So welcome aboard Manvaru!:)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by snaga1
[B]Nom: I agree that the languages will support the narrative, rather than the narrative being a vehicle for the languages. On the other hand, I feel that a lot of things can be developed 'side by side'. Once a name of a person or a place has been established (or put forward) it is open to linguistic interpretation. How did the name come about? Who named it? What does the name signify? These are all valid questions that can be asked immediately, with some sort of linguistic structure emerging latter I would imagine. It really depends on who has the knowledge and enthusiasm to work on that aspect. I would be intrigued by work on names and meaning but I lack the skill to develop language in a more structure manner.

My opinion is that it would be best that names created in the writing of the tales be temperary by default, and later filled in after the language has been consturcted quite a bit. The reason for this is that the use of arbitrarily created names will result in a languages that... hmm what is the word I am looking for... a language that... ah... the words wont really feel like they are of one language at all! If that makes sense?

For example take Quenya and Khuzdul... very different in sounds. If people just invent names and then later set to assign the meanings that is all well and good but... I think it would be much better if languages were made and then names formed in that language so that the names in the language would be distictively of that language. It would also add to the distinction between cultures too I think... would the sounds of Sindarin fit the dwarves as well as does khuzdul? hehehehe... In my opinion: No, but it is a funny thought.


And I'd say this idea about temperary names falls under:

Also I feel quite strongly that people should contribute material, open to the idea that others will adapt and alter things. This is, I believe, in the spirit of myth making: that tales get continually refined and reshaped, as one person tells another, who then tells a third. That way, we should move to better and better quality.

:D

[Snaga]

That sounds good to me. That's exactly how I see it.:)

[Lantarion]

What I would have liked to see more of in, say, the LotR are the cultural differentiations between different cultures. Tolkien seems to divide 'cultures' up in the general category of 'race', it would seem, but then underneath (as seen in UT and probably HoME12) it is seen that each race has different sects or groups of people who have cultures fairly unique to themselves (e.g. with Men we have the Drúedain, Dúnedain, Easterlings, Haradrim, Rohirrim, etc.).
This, I think, should be one of the main factors of this project - first identifying a number of races (or even just one or two), setting a general backdrop for each, and then dividing each race into smaller parts (I'd call them 'Clans' here, for lack of a better word). Each Clan within a Race would have a slightly or radically different view of the belief system of that Race, thus distinguishing them from one another.

Now, I would really like to lay some mythological/religious groundwork for one or two of these Races, and establish their cultural history; we should all begin to formulate ideas of our own, and as Snaga said bring them forth as a sort of starting point.


Now I might actually want to be a part of the linguistic formulation, I might not; but either way I would like to know how we/you will be beginning the process. Will we begin by establishing a universal root system, from which all or most of the languages will evolve, and then link the various languages with that root system? Or will we first create full words and terms, and only later create the roots and link them that way? (I personally use this latter one a little more than the fromer :))
And if we are to have different cultures, then we must also have different languages.
Oh, and I think that although all the people who will be undertaking this project will have received a large part of their inspiration from Tolkien (at least I have), we should try and avoid too many simlarities between Quenya or Sindarin and our upcoming tongue(s). But then again, languages seem to have a way of just molding into something without our noticing it, so perhaps we shouldn't think too much about it. :D

But that's another question: are we creating a single mythology and a single culture who adheres or believes in that mythology, or a whole bunch of each?


PS: I would like to move this thread to the Guild of Writers section, as this is the type of project which would have a good home in such a place! :D I would still probably leave a redirect here in Mem. Annc. What do you think?

[Dengen-Goroth]

This is an extremely exciting project, and I am hands-down 101% without a doubt in:D Though, just how will we begin this?

[Zale]

What a great idea! Several points:

1) It is easier (or at least I found it so) to come up with a small word list (~100 words) and some basic grammar for a language; the roots will then begin to suggest themselves.

2) Can I help? I have a small bit of experience in creating languages (two, both of which are virtually fully functional) and I also like creating just for the sake of it. I started my own mythos, but I sort of ran out of time when I started A levels.

3) Will we have a creation myth, as in the beginning of the world?

4) Who will decide what's kept and what's not? Or should we vote?

5) It might be easier to create geography first, then cultures, as it can have great influence (see the Teleri and the Sea). Having said that, if people have a culture with specific characteristics in mind, it is (almost) always possible to fiddle the geography.

Just a few ideas. Now why didn't I think of this first?

[Snaga]

Welcome Dengen!:) I always admire your writing: it will be an enormous benefit to the project.

Welcome to you as well, Zale.:) I'll answer your points shortly. First let me reply to Lanty

Originally posted by Lantarion
What I would have liked to see more of in, say, the LotR are the cultural differentiations between different cultures. I agree with this whole-heartedly. In addition, cultural change, and 'counter-cultures' could play a role. One theme that I want to explore at some point is the struggle of one culture to escape the domination of a greater, but more evil one.

Originally posted by Lantarion
Now, I would really like to lay some mythological/religious groundwork for one or two of these Races, and establish their cultural history; we should all begin to formulate ideas of our own, and as Snaga said bring them forth as a sort of starting point.Yes, at some early stage we need, I believe, to set some of this out, as a base position to work from.

On your subsequent point about not being too close to Tolkien in terms of languages, I agree. I'd extend that to other areas too (e.g. the Tolkien conception of elves - which is unique to him).

Originally posted by Lantarion
But that's another question: are we creating a single mythology and a single culture who adheres or believes in that mythology, or a whole bunch of each?I think this is a good question meritting discussion. My own instinct is to create a pantheon and creation myth, that we take as 'the truth', or at least a good prism through which to see the truth, but then consider the views of the psychologist Jung who identified 'archetype' deities who recur in different cultures. Or another way of looking at this, is that if there are divine beings they might be known in a number of cultures, by different names, with varying levels of reverence according to the values of that culture.

Zale:

(1) This approach seems to be a sensible approach to me and I am prepared to start out with this methodology unless anyone has an alternative to suggest.

(2) Yes... please help!:)

(3) We MUST have a creation myth and it is one of the starting points, one of the earliest priorities.

(4) I intend to write a 'terms of reference' for the project that will propose a suitable means of making decisions of this sort. Watch this space!

(5) I prefer to think that we should have some ideas of culture before we fit them into a geography. It is my judgement that the culture of a people is more 'artistically important'. But once we establish one or two cultures, the geography can be built around them, and then other cultures will present themselves. Or another way of looking at it: they will evolve together, but I don't want to be tied to a map IMMEDIATELY.:) Does anyone else have views?

I'm starting to get excited by this....!:D

[Lantarion]

Ok, I was just brainstorming about this whole mythology, and I decided to put some names and Gods down on paper. Now here is a First Draft, beginning, first copy, unfinished, undecided, basic idea of what I would like to see. :D


The Olocii - the First Race (?)
[olo = existing, alive]

Pantheon

Nofor = [nofo = to chase] God of the Hunt
Selesh = [selei = light, moonlight] Goddess of Light
Hethrë = [héan = air] Goddess of Air and the Winds
Thoio = [toi = firm, material, sturdy; later tol = earth] Smith-God, creator of the earth and lands
Assial = [asai = water] God of Waters

Oleiron = [olo = alive] God of Living Creatures, one of the main deities in all cultures

Kó-Onir = [Kóa = next place, next life, the Afterworld; onir = guardian] God of Death, viewed as a good god in most societies (e.g. among the Olocii)
Cáth-Ran = [cáth = large, wide, bountiful; ran = wheat] God of the Harvest, came after the creation
Uirosterië = [Uiro = the Between-Realm; seterë = sister] Goddess of Spirits, the Spirit World (Also named Uiro-Onira, ‘Between-Realm Guardian’)


Now that's as far as I got. And as these terms were my ideas (in fact some of the words already exist in my root system), I will probably use many of these words and ideas myself.
But I had no clear notion of the culture I was creating, and I didn't base it on any Earth-culture (though some of the names look a little Celtic :D)..

What do you think? :o


PS: Also, perhaps we should have a seperate thread for brainstorms such as this? This current thread could serve more like a set of guideline, as well as a place to discuss the ideas.

[Snaga]

Excellent.:) I think the names sound good, and the choices of deities are right, although there may be gaps. This may become more clear with the emergence of a 'Creation Myth'.

At some point we have to introduce conflict into the mythological structure, and I think that will also help clarify our views on the deities that we need to know about. At present ideas about creation are forming....

I think that at the start of all things was Light, and the light was broken... my thoughts are beginning to crystallise around this:D Can anyone add to this? Is Selesh the eldest?

Sorry to reply in haste... its a busy time.

[Bethelarien]

I would definitely like to be in on this. Pretty please with lots of cherries on top. ;)

And I would agree, Snaga, that Selesh should be the eldest, as Light would make sense. After Selesh I would think would come Toio, as it would then make sense to create an earth to have wind/air, water, creatures, etc.

This is the order I see it in (for now ;)):

Selesh
Toio
Hethrë
Assial
Oleiron

Then possibly

Kó-Onir and Uirosterië, who could be siblings

And then

Nofor and Cáth-Ran

Again, maybe siblings? Or maybe we shouldn't have too many pairs of siblings.

What think you?

[Lantarion]

Sounds fabulous!
Except that I was thinking that Oleiron might be a god that is present in all the myths, and is one of the links between them, so perhaps he culd be the second-eldest? :)
The siblings idea is great. Althuogh I haven't thought about the creation myth yet, it would fit nicely.
I was thinking abuot making a really radical one, not just "First there was nothing, then there was [equivalent for Ilúvatar]".:rolleyes:
I'll get back to you on that though. :D

OH and there's a typo in that first post, it should be 'Thoio'. I'll change it. :) But Toio sounds good as well.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Pontifex
Except that I am actually in the process of creating exactly what you're talking about myself, and I would feel a little uncomfortable bringing out my ideas (which are beginning to be pretty extensive, as I've been working on it steadily for well over a year now).. I guess I'm too possessive or something. When will we get to look in on the realm inside your head dear Ponti? goodness knows, but I am sure there are vast empty spaces and windy deserts in there:p

[Lantarion]

*watches the screen with a glazed-over look for several minutes*

Wha..?






:p

[Zale]

So far so good. I think we need to create seperate threads (maybe in a separate Guild or Inn or whatever) to keep things (and me) from getting confused.
I also think that one of the most important points in any mythos is the introduction of evil. Is it a separate identity, as old as the 'good'? Or did it arise from some corruption of the original harmony (a la Melkor)? This may need to be planned into our work early, because conflict is one of the main things that make a narrative interesting.

PS - don't set anything in concrete, 'cos we're most probably going to end up tinkering anyway. It's what makes world-building so much fun.
PPS - what will the final format be? Ancient scriptures? A village elder telling tales around the fire? A sort of bible?

[Lhunithiliel]

I am excited by the idea too, Snaga ... and all the rest! :)

But here are some of my thoughts so far:

1/ Mythology - Good!
But say...A mythology is being born by the and out of the traditions and folk-lore of a certain large group of people, living somewhere, somewhen, having roots deep in the very history of this people. So, my point is (my question also) - WHOSE mythology do you guys have in mind? Because I find quite some differences in the mythology say of Western Europe and that of the Incas :) So... I think this should also be somehow clarified.

2/ I am strongly convinced that for this project to become alive and working, first of all we should make an outline of the whole "story" and then fill in the details. Otherwise, it seems to me soon a chaos may arise.
Think of this as some sort of a table with blank spaces which are to be gradually filled. But the "table" must be set up in the necessary "format" - "collumns" , "rows", their numbers and sizes... Sorry if this way of representing the outline I have in mind is a bit too "MS Word"-like but... I am trying to use a "universal" language ;) What I mean is that we should first of all have the "guideline" and then follow it with numerous creative details.
I mean (LOL...seems stupid to keep on with this "I mean", but I'm just trying to express my idea best possible) :
Stages of development: (an example)

The Creation
The Beginning
The Growth
The Sub-creation
The Difficulties
The Overcoming of difficulties
The Population of the new world
etc.

3/ You may, if you want me in this project, rely on me fully for the detailed stories that would fill in those "blanck spaces of the table" that I was speaking above. I like going into details.
History
Tales
Legends
Scenery and landscapes
Peoples
Outlook and personalities
etc.
These are the things I believe I could be of use with to the project.

Anyway, Snaga, as this was born in your head, how about sitting down and making that outline and submit it to discussion untill it reaches its final variant and then, based on it, threads could be open to start working in details on each of the elements = stages (one thread for each "stage"?

Just a suggestion :)

[Snaga]

Your offer of help is happily and readily accepted Lhun!

Zale you are right... new threads are required and as soon as we are ready for some Guild space I would happily grab it. I'll trust Lanty to know when we reach that point.

Lhun: I guess you are right... I should set some structure.... project structure and mythological structure. I'll get right on it. Thanks... I need the occasional 'push out of the door' :)

[Ciryaher]

I think this is a nifty idea :) I'd be interested in writing some stories about Gods and Goddesses, if you plan on having any, that is. I think it'd be fun to make them like the pantheon of Greek gods, with lots of personality and interaction, not the boring Valar that are in Tolkien's mythology (let's face it, the action wasn't in Valinor).

[Snaga]

I am sorry to do this, but in view of recent events I no longer have the appetite for this endeavour.

I hope you will carry on in my absence.:)

[Lantarion]

What? What do recent events have to do with this project??
C'mon you are our motivator, the show must go on with you! :(

[Snaga]

I find I am not entirely welcome at TTF "They say I am a nuisance and a disturber of the peace". Snaga Stormcrow or something like that.;) I have been told repeatedly that if I don't like things here to suck it up or go elsewhere. While I am not leaving completely, maybe you'll understand that at present I do not wish to pour large amounts of effort into TTF. Not for the moment anyway. But it would still be nice to see this make good progress.:)

[Lantarion]

It seems I am now in the same situation as you.. And I completeely understand your lack of enthusiasm, because I've caught it too. :(
If others want to continue with this, PLEASE do! I will look in once in a while, but won't be very active.

[Nob Boffin]

The place I usually spend most of my time was down yesterday and today, so I decided to do some exploring in TTF. I discovered this particular thread and got rather enthusiastic about it, till I got to the end.

What I was wondering, is it for all intents and purposes dead, or just awaiting the dreams of the creator to breath life into it? I laid awake last night and tried to think of some sort of Creation Myth and I think I have one, but I will not bother to post if there is little or no chance that of a response.

So is there anyone alive out there still clinging to this small bit of creativity, awaiting it to come to life?

[Lhunithiliel]

Alas!!!

What has been born in the "universe" of one's particular mind, cannot be achieved by others. :(

[Lantarion]

My last post was a long time ago, but althuogh I am not unenthusiastic about this for the same reasons, it does not change the fact that, sadly, I am. :(
I have devoted far too little time to my own personal writings and inventings, and I do not have the time or the energy to start creating something completely new at this time.
But as I said, whoever is willing to carry this on will please do so, if they please! :)

Alas!!!

What has been born in the "universe" of one's particular mind, cannot be achieved by others. :(
A bit melodramatic perhaps Lhun? :rolleyes: :)
This was from the start a joint effort, with several 'creators' and not just one. It was Snaga who thought of the concept in the first place, but we have all contributed in some way so far; it doesn't all depend on the enthusiasm or involvement of one or two people at all, keeping in mind the meaning of 'joint effort'. ;)

[Zale]

Give me until the end of the month, & then I'll have some spare time to dedicate to this. Things are a bit hectic here right now, but I'll be all enthusiasm come Februaury.

[Finduilas]

Is this project still alive? Or is it forgotten as many 'ancestors' of it? :confused:

[Zale]

This can only be resuscitated if enough people show enthusiasm. If you're interested, let the world know here!

(And quickly, before the thread sinks again.)

[Finduilas]

Yes, I think I'll be able to offer new "myths" to the community here but everyday, I am afraid. I will most probably show you an idea of mine expressed in words every weekend or at least almost every weekend. I hope you will correct any mistakes as well as style inaccuracies. So anyone else still enthusiased?
:)

[Turtle]

I will exert myself into this project. :p

[Finduilas]

So we are becoming quite a group..:)

What about others?
Zale?
Lant?
Ciryaher?

Come on....Mum?:)...(Lhun)...

[Lantarion]

I'm afraid I'd feel a little uncomfortable with the whole process for some reason.. Sorry. :confused: :(
And as I told Ithrynluin in a PM I am being ambushed by a huge workload, and it will be a miracle if I manage to have enuogh time to even moderate TTF for a long while.. :(

[Finduilas]

I'm really sorry to hear that, Lant. :(
But I hope everything turns right.:)
We (TTF as a whole;)) will wait for you.;)

So, anyone else?

[Zale]

I fear I may have the same problem: this year being the A2 year, I have to work really hard to make a high offer; but when I have time I will contribute as much as I can.

[Helcaraxë]

I am willing to dedicate my humble skills to this project, but right now I am too tired to form a coherent thought. :eek: I'll post my ideas on the morrow.

By the way, are we going to have the Gods all on the same level ontologically, or will there be one "creator God"?


~Helcaraxë

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally Posted by Lhunithiliel
Alas!!!

What has been born in the "universe" of one's particular mind, cannot be achieved by others.

A bit melodramatic perhaps Lhun? :rolleyes: :)
Then give it a try, Lant! Let's see what will be achieved! I see a group of enthusiasts has gathered and this is wonderful. ... Ooops... I'd rather say - a group is trying to be assembled... This is too wonderful in itself - no doubt!

Unfortunately, I still hold to my above quoted opinion.

[Finduilas]

Mum...:)

Amm...will you help us (the enthusiasts;)) at least with the lay out of the ideas?...If you have time, of course.;)

As for the Gods...well, in every mythology there are many Gods...I don't know...do we want to create something different? Suggestions?

[Bethelarien]

This still interests me. I would love to help, and hope that I can be of use. But it will be strange doing it without Snaga.

When do we start? :D

[Finduilas]

Yes, it would be, but if he returns to this project one day, he'll find it in quite a shape...I hope.

Well, right now!:)
Somebody help with the whole idea of the mythology...not very good at lay-outs... :o
Should we have one or more Gods as requested?
Should we have mono or polytheism?

[Bethelarien]

I, for one, would vote for polytheism. If you think about it, nearly all of the famous stories with created mythologies have several different gods. One god in a story would be somewhat....well, boring.

Having several gods would provide an opening for conflict as well as originality. :D

Just my two cents'.

[Finduilas]

Okay...you got me!:)

So, we have polytheism...and I think we should start with the creating of the world...right?
So, it would be nice if every member (of not so many:() posts his idea...in either a plan or a written work.
Then we may discuss which parts of one's work we will accept and which part of other's...thus we will combine the beginning of our "joint" mythology.:)
Ideas?:)

[Helcaraxë]

I was in the middle of writing the creation myth, but I came across a few problems.

Is Selesh the creator of the Gods? If so, she would have to have some "creational" power that the others lacked. Unless of course, she somehow gave them the ability of primary creation. So I was thinking, perhaps Selesh's light has some significance? I tried out the possibility that the Light created Selesh, and then she created (or perhaps helped to create?) the other gods. But this is problematic, as it introduces a new concept, the Light, that would cause confusion and contradiction later on. So I did an Ockham's razor and cut out the light part. However, we could still use the light as a medium of secondary creation... Anyway, then I considered the ontological distinction between Selesh and Oleiron, and decided that it would make more sense for Oleiron to have created Selesh, because he is the master of living things, perhaps the giver of free will? Hmm...what are everyone's thoughts on this?

[Bethelarien]

Hmmm...idea. Maybe this has already been put forward, but I'm saying it anyway. :D

Lanty gave us a lovely list of possible names and functions for gods/goddesses. I would suggest that those of us who wish to participate in this start with these, and come up with stories/relationships between them. Gods are an important part of any culture, so my feeling is that these should be dealt with first. Just for a review, Lanty's list:
The Olocii - the First Race (?)
[olo = existing, alive]

Pantheon

Nofor = [nofo = to chase] God of the Hunt
Selesh = [selei = light, moonlight] Goddess of Light
Hethrë = [héan = air] Goddess of Air and the Winds
Thoio = [toi = firm, material, sturdy; later tol = earth] Smith-God, creator of the earth and lands
Assial = [asai = water] God of Waters

Oleiron = [olo = alive] God of Living Creatures, one of the main deities in all cultures

Kó-Onir = [Kóa = next place, next life, the Afterworld; onir = guardian] God of Death, viewed as a good god in most societies (e.g. among the Olocii)
Cáth-Ran = [cáth = large, wide, bountiful; ran = wheat] God of the Harvest, came after the creation
Uirosterië = [Uiro = the Between-Realm; seterë = sister] Goddess of Spirits, the Spirit World (Also named Uiro-Onira, ‘Between-Realm Guardian’)
Then my suggestion was to come up with a tenative order of gods, eldest to youngest:
Selesh
Toio
Hethrë
Assial
Oleiron

Then possibly

Kó-Onir and Uirosterië, who could be siblings

And then

Nofor and Cáth-Ran

Again, maybe siblings? Or maybe we shouldn't have too many pairs of siblings.
And then Lanty's next suggestion:
Except that I was thinking that Oleiron might be a god that is present in all the myths, and is one of the links between them, so perhaps he culd be the second-eldest?
The siblings idea is great. Althuogh I haven't thought about the creation myth yet, it would fit nicely.
I was thinking abuot making a really radical one, not just "First there was nothing, then there was [equivalent for Ilúvatar]".
Perhaps we could work on this first? Try to finalize things just a tidbit more?

And Helcaraxe, that's certainly an interesting idea. It is possible that it could work, although I've always seen Light as the life-giver. Without light, life couldn't exist, so it makes sense to me to have Selesh as the eldest and the possible creator, without origin, much like Iluvatar.

Or not. :D

[Zale]

Would it make it more interesting if the first Gods (or God, if we want a clear hierarchy) didn't know who had created them?
Also: very hard to avoid cliche when dealing with the domains of various Gods. I would suggest keeping their number to a minimun and generalising as much as possible. Of course, that does cut down on possible interaction between them, but it will mean that they can have more distinct characters.
Just a couple of thoughts.

[Helcaraxë]

And Helcaraxe, that's certainly an interesting idea. It is possible that it could work, although I've always seen Light as the life-giver. Without light, life couldn't exist, so it makes sense to me to have Selesh as the eldest and the possible creator, without origin, much like Iluvatar.

Or not. :D

Selesh as the life-giver might make sense if the light if the essence of life. But it would make more sense to me if Oleiron created Selesh, and then she in turn used the light's life-giving power to create the other Gods. This would, of course, mean that Olerion must have created Selesh in a different way, not using the light. Perhaps the light is the manifestation of free will (life), and since Oleiron is the master of free will, perhaps he transfered the light to Selesh and she manifested it.

The reason I would think Oleiron would be the creator is because if Selesh was, she would sort of supplant Oleiron as master of life; hence, as master of free will. I mean, a God's domain is that sphere of influence in which he or she has the most power, or perhaps the origin of that part of creation. So it would follow that Oleiron be the cause of free will, the first cause of free will.

[Isthir]

Through my readings of all three and a half pages I wish to help this story along, though I too am in the process of doing exactly that which this thread is attempting to do. As well, I am a little scetchy on posting my ideas into this story.

However, I would love to help mold and shape the ideas of those that are wholly devoted to this writting. If you would like a sample of my creation story, please just ask and I shall supply one, perhaps it will help kick start your minds.

-Isthir

[Bethelarien]

Helcaraxe, the more I think about your idea, the more I love it. I'm all for it, if the others will consent to it. Here's a revised hierarchy I had thought of:

Oleiron
Selesh
Assial
Toio
Hethrë

Kó-Onir and Uirosterië, who could be spouses? Tolkien had nearly all of his Valar as married to another.

And then

Nofor and Cáth-Ran, siblings possibly

What say you?

[Isthir]

Helcaraxe, the more I think about your idea, the more I love it. I'm all for it, if the others will consent to it. Here's a revised hierarchy I had thought of:

Oleiron
Selesh
Assial
Toio
Hethrë

Kó-Onir and Uirosterië, who could be spouses? Tolkien had nearly all of his Valar as married to another.

And then

Nofor and Cáth-Ran, siblings possibly

What say you?
So it would be that, if Oleiron does infact create the rest of the gods, even through Selesh, he would still be that of Eru...for in an odd sense he would have created all, especially being the creater of all living things. I do like the idea of the gods not knowing how they came about, adds a hint of mystery to the whole of Creation.

Now, for my question, would those created by the gods, forgot their names, view death as a blessing? What then would hold them to the world?

The begining of many two cents thrown in by me,
Isthir

[Isthir]

Perhaps, life could be a test, of a sort, of the souls of the Living, causing death to be that of the rejoining of the gods? As well, here it is possible to add the mystery of Reincarnation in: say that a soul does not pass the test of the gods, it is born anew with a new body, and consiously knows nothing of their past life, though are not meant to repeat their mistakes of old.

See? More cents from me,
Isthir

[Helcaraxë]

All good ideas. But first we should try to figure out how Oleiron created Selesh and the light, and we should decipher the interplay of all these concepts before we start writing. By the way, I believe that Lanty said that "Toio" was a typo, and that he meant "Thoio."

[Isthir]

All good ideas. But first we should try to figure out how Oleiron created Selesh and the light, and we should decipher the interplay of all these concepts before we start writing. By the way, I believe that Lanty said that "Toio" was a typo, and that he meant "Thoio."
Yet another thought came into my mind when I read this. Why should everything being explained? To my knowledge, a mythology is basically a tradition passed down through the ages by word of mouth to explain the workings of the world. Perhaps the creation of Selesh should remain a mystery? Or perhaps even apart of the Lost Lore?

Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts!
-Isthir

[Lantarion]

Isthir that sounds great, and you have a point. :)
And yes the proper name I meant was Thoio. 'Toio' rmeinds me of the word 'toy'! :D

[Zale]

You can't help but leave something unexplained, because as soon as you answer one question you will be asking another. (Think about it.) You (or we)might as well leave Oleiron as the First Cause, I think.
Reincarnation could be great for a saga of some sort, for example someone cursed by one god or another to be reincarnated until having achieved some objective.

[Helcaraxë]

Yes, I agree with Zale that Oleiron should be a first cause. But let's make some final decisions before any of us put forth the effort of writing a first draft. ;)

[Bethelarien]

Helcaraxë, what all do you think we need to decide about? Oleiron is Eldest and Creator, sounds good to me. Selesh is next-born. What all would you like to discuss first?

[Helcaraxë]

How does Oleiron create Selesh? Does he create the other Gods and the Olocii? Or does he do that through the agency of Selesh? What role, specifically, does the light play in creation? Is the world of spirits ruled by Ko-Onir from the physical world? Is it a separate reality, or more of a hidden place, like Valinor after the destruction of Numenor? What happens to the Olocii when they die? We should address these issues before we come up with a definitive mythology.

[Bethelarien]

Well, it always helps me to just start writing, kind of to get my creative "juices" going. So, since I was bored today during class, I decided to give it a try and see what happened. The result:

In the beginning was Oleiron alone in the Deep. Time was not, light was not, life was not, save in Oleiron. And Oleiron thought on his loneliness, and decided it was not good for him to be alone. So he created his daughter Selesh, Lady of Light. “For,” said he, “she shall be of my flesh and bone, and yet other substance shall be in her that is not manifest in me.” So he cut off his right hand, showing forth the power and authority that would be given his daughter; and Oleiron wept, for he foresaw that the power he gave his children would be used for evil as well as for good. The tears he shed mingled with the flesh of his right hand and gave it life. Out of this hand grew Selesh, the most beautiful maiden mortal eyes could ever look upon, and the tears of Oleiron flowed in her veins. From Selesh issued forth light, sending radiance to the farthest reaches of the Deep. And Oleiron and Selesh conversed in thought, and Selesh thought to create others after their manner. Thinking thus, she took a drop of her blood with which to make her firstborn. “As I am of my father’s flesh, so shall my children be of my blood.”

That's it. I don't know if this is worthwhile, if so I can always continue, or someone else can. Feel free to change things, this was just my form of brainstorming. :D

[Isthir]

I like it! Kind of reminds me of Norse Mythology but with a twist. Very well done my darling.

As for expounding upon it I do not know for myself at this time, for I have a great deal of thoughts swirling in my own mind about Kiiraa, my mythology, and would not dare hook this wonderful project with Kiiraa's ideals and thoughts.

-Isthir

[Bethelarien]

Hmmm...strange, Isthir, since I've never read Norse mythology. I took a bit from the Bible :D (couldn't resist), a bit from a book I just finished reading (Star Wars: NJO), and a bit from my head. :D

[Lantarion]

Bethelarien that sounds really good!! :eek: It really reminds me of Hindu mysticism or the Hinduist creation myth. :)
Yes, I agree with Zale that Oleiron should be a first cause.
Well I have no real objection to that as I'm not that involved here anyway, but I actually meant Oleiron to be the God of living creatures, not of Everything. A bit like Yavanna, but of animals (as well?). ;)
But Beth did a good job with that, it's a lot like a mythological script I've written before myself; except my one was even more metaphorical, as I didn't leave it at something as mundane as a god cutting off his own hand.. :D

[Helcaraxë]

Actually, to me the order would seem most logical as follows:

Oleiron
Selesh
Thoio
Assail
Hethrë

And then the rest can be in any order.

I'll write my draft this way, and if any do not like this order we can change it in the finalized version.

[Helcaraxë]

Alright, here's as far as I have gotten so far:

At first there was darkness. And Oleiron, first among Gods, arose and wandered in the Abyss. His mind could not pierce all shadows, for they were not subject to his will; and though he was first before all other things that live, he was not, and nor is, ruler of all creation, for there are things over which he has no mastery.
And he saw that all things were empty, and he was saddened, But he conceived of a a Light, and his thoughts took being, and there indeed came a great Light into creation. From it sprang another like to himself, for she had a will of her own. Selesh he named her, that is Silver Light, for she shone and was radiant with the light that he had brought forth, and later he gave her mastery of It. Together they contrived to make more beings like to themselves, and in one place they gathered shadows of many beautiful hues, and it mingled with the light, and became firm. The solid shadows formed a shape like unto its creators, and Selesh and Oleiron let more undistilled light flow into it, so that it could have a will like they. They named him Thoio, that is Hard Earth, and he beheld the work of his father and of Selesh with wonder. He contrived to make sturdy things like to himself, and Oleiron taught hm the skill of forging objects from the shadows, but he forbade him from using the light in his work, for the Gods alone have light in their very being, and are not sustained by it as are all other things.
Thoio then made a great globe, and Selesh graced it with her light so that it shone. Seleinaron he named it, that is giver of light, in honor of Selesh who aided in its creation. Than Thoio scattered dust across the Heavens, and Selesh formed light around it, so that it was glorious and radiant. In some places the dust came together into shimmering spheres, the stars, but in others the starry dust remained as ribbons across the sky.

[Isthir]

Very well done, though it seems that Thoio's skill and mastery of shapping the shadows seems a bit too quick, though that is my own point of view and does not really need to be changed. Perhaps, though, the dust could be taken from portions of the world that were dug out for water to eventually fill, creating the oceans? Just a thought. I must applaud the thought of creation through shadows, very original I believe.

-Isthir

[Zale]

Just a thought: how do we decide which passages will be the final versions? Could we not keep several (slightly) different versions of each event? This could reflect different the myths of different cultures etcetera, and mean that more people would have a direct contribution to the whole.

[Helcaraxë]

I want to write another version but I think we need to have a few more contributions as well as some consensus about how we want to combine them.

[Helcaraxë]

Is it just me, or has no-one posted a reply to this project in quite a while? ;)

[Bethelarien]

I don't really have anything to say at the moment, I'm busy working on a term paper.

Helcaraxe, you going to do another version or no?

I'll see if I can come up with some more, but no promises. Term papers are no fun.

[faila]

this is turning out to be quite interesting I will help when and where I can. But are we trying to make this like earth mythologies or a more of a off the wall aproach?

[Isthir]

To tell the truth I didn't know where this thread got moved. As well I've been working literaly seven days a week so please do forgive my lateness in posting.

Yes, I believe that it is possible to keep serval versions of a single event. Yet, it may cause unrest and confusion all depending on how they are written and so on.

As to faila's question, I feel that it is a mix of both personally. As far as I can tell it is all still mostly up to interpertation(sp?). Beyond that I cannot wait to see what you guys come up with, and I'm sorry about the paper writting Beth :P

As always,
Isthir

[faila]

I think that we could draw attention to this project if a guild was created, it would also be easier to have a brainstorming thread different than the beging possibility threads. but this is just an idea. I like Bethelarien's version alot, but i think a flaw in both version represented is the fact that their is nothing but the original creator, why not already have some things in existence, which would then be things outside of his power, I may be not making much sense, but i just think it would be different and more interesting if some things already existed and had existed.

[Isthir]

The problem with things already existing before the creator, in a mythology IMO, is that the soul purpose of a mythology is to explain the world and life. The mythologies of Earth were at one time true and major religouns which attempted explain all, as it is in most invented mythologies. Though, yes, it would be differant and most likely pretty fun to write, I don't know how well it would smooth over in the end.

A guild you say? What would be the goals and such for it?

-Isthir

[Lantarion]

Sorry, no new guild will be created at TTF, probably ever. There is already huge renovation being done to extinguish the needless guilds as it is.
A mythology which assumes an already existant universe preceding divine action is not a Creation myth. I think as it is with Tolkien, that Ilúvatar had been in existance forever (a concept we cannot comprehend), would be one way of 'categorizing' the status of the gods in this case too.

[faila]

The problem with things already existing before the creator, in a mythology IMO, is that the soul purpose of a mythology is to explain the world and life. The mythologies of Earth were at one time true and major religouns which attempted explain all, as it is in most invented mythologies. Though, yes, it would be differant and most likely pretty fun to write, I don't know how well it would smooth over in the end.

A guild you say? What would be the goals and such for it?

-Isthir
You say its to explain life yet their is no explanation of the God, these other things in existence could be similair, its just an idea though.

goals would be for people to come and communicate more effectively about this project, it would be easier to have multiple threads about different time period and threads about what to except and what not to, and like i said it would also allow more publicity on the board getting more people involved.

[Zale]

Back to the first cause argument. You could work backwards forever saying, "and that was why that was", or at some convenient point you could put your foot down and say, "this was first, because I say so".
IMHO this might have to grow to more than one thread in the PP before it should consider needing its own Guild.

[Isthir]

IMHO to start such a project as this one needs an outline of sorts. Key events and/or 'people' then fill in the blanks which tend to provide connectivity throughout all the events. Just my opinion though.

As well, it has become apparant to me (though I think it was suggested earlier) that we need to breakdown the mythology and assign certain parts of it to certain people. To do so we need a basic mythological basis agreed upon and souls willing to take on this project.

-Isthir

[faila]

IMHO to start such a project as this one needs an outline of sorts. Key events and/or 'people' then fill in the blanks which tend to provide connectivity throughout all the events. Just my opinion though.

As well, it has become apparant to me (though I think it was suggested earlier) that we need to breakdown the mythology and assign certain parts of it to certain people. To do so we need a basic mythological basis agreed upon and souls willing to take on this project.

-Isthir I agree completely. I would also think that whoever is in charge with the project should post another thread about it asking who is interested in doing a part, but i think that it should be in groups of two or three writer collaberating. We need to have a list of people involved or who want to be involved, we start with a commitee of 2 or 3 to write the outline than split the outline between groups. (Yeah read that a couple time and it will make sense...im so tired.)

[Lhunithiliel]

I think that we could draw attention to this project if a guild was created, it would also be easier to have a brainstorming thread different than the beging possibility threads. but this is just an idea.

Hello to all you, sub-creators of new mythical worlds! ;) :)

Very soon the former Guild of Tolkienology will become THE place to host projects of grand vigour, like this one. So, soon this project will have its "home" !
You just don't lose the creative spirit! :cool: :)

[Helcaraxë]

Bethelarien,

I won't write a second version until we have some more input and a consensus about some of the problems.

[Nob Boffin]

I posted to this thread way back on page two and Helcaraxë put up a pretty good starting post on page five, however if you guys keep discussing proceedure instead of proceeding nothing will ever happen, so maybe just start posting and after you get more stuff down, then you can begin to dissect it.

The whole purpose of most mythologies is, in my opinion, an attempt to explain the unexplainable therefore parts would be left as a mystery.

Helcaraxe wrote;

At first there was darkness. And Oleiron, first among Gods, arose and wandered in the Abyss. His mind could not pierce all shadows, for they were not subject to his will; and though he was first before all other things that live, he was not, and nor is, ruler of all creation, for there are things over which he has no mastery.
And he saw that all things were empty, and he was saddened, But he conceived of a a Light, and his thoughts took being, and there indeed came a great Light into creation. From it sprang another like to himself, for she had a will of her own. Selesh he named her, that is Silver Light, for she shone and was radiant with the light that he had brought forth, and later he gave her mastery of It. Together they contrived to make more beings like to themselves, and in one place they gathered shadows of many beautiful hues, and it mingled with the light, and became firm. The solid shadows formed a shape like unto its creators, and Selesh and Oleiron let more undistilled light flow into it, so that it could have a will like they. They named him Thoio, that is Hard Earth, and he beheld the work of his father and of Selesh with wonder. He contrived to make sturdy things like to himself, and Oleiron taught hm the skill of forging objects from the shadows, but he forbade him from using the light in his work, for the Gods alone have light in their very being, and are not sustained by it as are all other things.
Thoio then made a great globe, and Selesh graced it with her light so that it shone. Seleinaron he named it, that is giver of light, in honor of Selesh who aided in its creation. Than Thoio scattered dust across the Heavens, and Selesh formed light around it, so that it was glorious and radiant. In some places the dust came together into shimmering spheres, the stars, but in others the starry dust remained as ribbons across the sky.
__________________


To which I might add or rather amend,

When there was naught but darkness for many ages uncounted, Oleiron was content, and wandered where he would, but from his thoughts came a longing for that which did not exist save only within him. He sought to make more of himself, and therfore not be alone, he created one only but through her he made all that is known, and she was the mother of all and that pleased him mightily.

That is rough and literally off the top of my head but if you debate endlessly nothing will ever get done, so write now edit later. I hope that helps and does not offend Helcaraxe, you wrote well.