Round 10 The Guild of Scholars vs. The Guild of Outcasts

[Gil-Galad]

It is a great honour for me to open the thread for the debate between the Guild of Scholars and the Guild of Outcasts.
I hope that we all will be part of an interesting debate.
I would like to ask both teams to post their teams.I will post the topic when Round 9 is finished and I have the names of the debators from both Guilds.
GOOD LUCK!!

[Gil-Galad]

I would like to remind both guilds that I am waiting for the lists of their teams.Please post them as soon as possible.:(

[Nóm]

Well no Outcasts have signed up for this debate. If it's okay with everyone I'll debate alone... I truly don't mind doing so.

[Gil-Galad]

I know you don't mind debating alone,but I would like to say that you are among the greatest members of TTF ever!!!I mean it is something unique to debate alone every time!Good luck.
Please let me know if somebody from your Guild wants to participate.
I would like also to have the list of debators of GoS.

I am eager to tell you the topic,because it is something very interesting,trust me!!!;)

[Inderjit S]

Hmm..I really would love a one on one with Nom.

(p.s a topic of the Noldor if it is a one on one between me and Nom would be good ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Inderjit,are you going to be the only one who will debate from your Guild?If it is so I will post the topic.

[Nóm]

ah! if its a Noldor topic bring Maedhros on too. :p

[Gil-Galad]

Finally who will participate from GoS?I would like to know it ASAP,because Aule will be again angry with me because we are late.:(

[Inderjit S]

hehe..to spare you from the wrath of that might Vala, I really want to go up against Nom, and baragund wants to debate, so can it be 2-1 or can someone join Nom or does it have to be 1-1?

[Nóm]

It doesn't have to be 1 vs 1...


You and Baragund... looking forward to it. :)

[Gil-Galad]

Nom is agree to debate against you guys,so I suppose I can post the topic now.
This is going to be a very small debate 2vs.1,but these three debators are probably the best ones!!!!
Here is the topic:

Nogrod and Belegost: two of the greatest Mansions of the Naugrim in the History of Middle-Earth. However, which of these great citadels left the greatest legacy through the ages following their destruction after the reshaping of Beleriand?


The topic is unusual and I would say that it's very interesting!!
Good Luck!!!
You will have exactly 7 days after the first post.
Once again Good Luck!!

[Nóm]

Dwarves?! BLAST!

;)


Thank you Gil-Galad, but I have a question right up front. Is the word greatest up for debate here, or do you have a specific definition in mind... for example great = good... rather than great = big?

[Ancalagon]

If I might be so bold as to interject, notwithstanding the fact this is of course your thread and ultimately your call Gil-galad, but as you will note in my PM to you I had suggessted re-wording the question. For the benefit of the participants, I actually sent the updated version before realising Gil-galad had posted the original!

The question I would have preferred to set is; Nogrod and Belegost were two of the most renowned Mansions of the Naugrim throughout the History of Middle-Earth. Which of these long-departed citadels rendered the most enduring legacy through the ages following their destruction, after the reshaping of Beleriand?
My apologies once again for interjecting in this thread, but I thought it important to make this point before the start of the debate.

[Aulë]

Ummm...Inder- perhaps you might want to look in your Guild's debating thread. Quite a few other Scholars have volunteered...

[Gil-Galad]

I believe that Anc's new version of the topic is better than the previous one,so if the Guilds do not have anything in mind(if they have I will not change the topic ;) :p )they can start the long-expecting debate.

[baragund]

Yes, Elfarmari indicated she would like to get in on the last hurrah of the tournament. Nom, are you OK going against three, especially when the subject deals with the uncouth race of the stunted people?:) Would you like to take some time to recruit a couple of teammates?

[Gil-Galad]

Ok you are three now,everything depends on Nom!!But you'd better hurry because I posted the topic.:(

[Nóm]

I'm okay with it... and there is no telling how long it would be until another could join.

[Gil-Galad]

ok then.I hope it will be a nice debate!!
You have 7days after the publishing of the first post!!:)

[baragund]

Sorry to be such a dunce, GG, but who goes first?

[Aulë]

Whoever is mentioned first in the schedule posts first.
In this case, it is the Guild of Scholars' Hall.

[Gil-Galad]

Thank you for the answer Aule,everybody need some sleep and I cannot be online in every moment.That is why I wasn't able to answer.But you did it:) ;)

[Gil-Galad]

posted by Aule
Hey GG,

Could you get that debate of yours moving along? The other two have almost finished, and yours hasn't even started.



Thank you guys,Aule blamed me again!!!!!:( :(

Can you please start ASAP?please.........:(

[baragund]

My apologies, GG and Aule. We are still mulling over which side we want to take. (By the way, cool topic! Now I like discussing the Noldor as well as the next guy, but this is a nice change!)

We'll have our opening post soon....

[Nóm]

One of the Outcasts is willing to join . The-Elf-Herself. Is that okay?

[Gil-Galad]

Uf,this is becoming a total mess!!
Of course she can join you!I hope the Scholars will post their opening debate soon.:(

[baragund]

Inder's working on our opening post and he tells me it should be up forthwith. Please bear with us since our Round 9 debate finished just the other day.

And we'd be happy to have The-Elf-Herself along! The more the merrier!:)

[Gil-Galad]

Ok,but if Aule wants to kill me it will be your fault ;)!

[Ancalagon]

Hmm, the more I think about this question, which I have been doing for over a week now, the more I would like to join Nom in the Outcasts and debate alongside her. The scope this question offers is immense and would test even the most ardent Tolkien scholar. However, have fun and I will see you all at the other end:D

[baragund]

OK, I’m going to go ahead and put up our opening post so Aule can stop pulling out his hair over how late we are. Forgive me, Inder, for cutting to the front of the line!

Here is the question as clarified by Anc…

Nogrod and Belegost were two of the most renowned Mansions of the Naugrim throughout the History of Middle-Earth. Which of these long-departed citadels rendered the most enduring legacy through the ages following their destruction, after the reshaping of Beleriand?

The Scholars will take the position that Belegost rendered the most enduring legacy after the reshaping of Beleriand.

How did we arrive at this position? We reviewed the history of the dwarves from their creation all the way through the end of the Third Age. We compared the roles that each city played during the First Age, the events where they played a significant role and then analyzed the long-term impacts those events had on later times.

The roles of each city through much of the First Age struck us as remarkably equivalent. Both had extensive trade with the Elves of Beleriand and both hired themselves for major construction projects. Nogrod helped Thingol build Menegroth and Belegost helped with the construction of Nargothrond. Relations with the Elves were professional but decidedly cool. It could be said that the Elves had a racist view of the uncouth race of the stunted people. Even the Noldor, who had the most in common, looked down their noses at the Naugrim.

There are several events that distinguished the cities and, to the Scholars, established their legacies. For Nogrod, it was the slaying of Thingol and the subsequent war with Doriath over the Silmaril and the Nauglamir. For Belegost, it was it’s role in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, it’s role as counselors attempting to talk Nogrod out of their rash and tragic actions against Doriath, and it’s status as the home of Durin’s folk, the Longbeards.

Let’s analyze Nogrod’s war with Doriath and it’s long-term impacts first. Now this was one of the most grievous tragedies of the First Age. Lust for the remade Nauglamir with the Silmaril set within it caused the dwarves of Nogrod to try to withhold it from Thingol. Centuries of contempt for the ‘uncouth race’ of the dwarves cause Thingol to insult the dwarves, which led to his murder, the war and the ultimate ruin of Doriath. These events had to have been hugely damaging to the long-term relations between elves and dwarves. Damaging yes; ruinous not quite. Despite this tragedy, dwarves and elves still peacefully coexisted in Middle Earth in the later ages, and they still were able to ally themselves in the face of a common enemy. Cases in point include the Elves and Dwarves setting aside their differences to fight the orcs in the Battle of Five Armies, and the aid of Durin’s folk to the Last Alliance. Nogrod’s legacy was damaging but could be overcome.

Belegost’s legacy is more subtle but more constructive and, ultimately, more enduring. The heroism their army displayed at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, where they stood their ground and drove Glaurung from the battlefield and withdrawing only at the death of their King demonstrated them as steadfast allies. When they declined to take part in Nogrod’s war with Doriath and counseled them against taking such rash actions, rightly thinking that there must have been more to the story than what Nogrod was telling them, they demonstrated that they had ‘cooler heads’ and were more statesmanlike in their approach to relations with other kingdoms. Finally, Belegost was the home of Durin’s folk, the Longbeards, and Durin’s line had a profound legacy on the later ages, from the establishment of the kingdom of Khazad-dum to their part in the War of the Ring. A super passage that sums up really well the legacies of the two cities can be found in ‘The History of Galdriel and Celeborn’ in Unfinished Tales. It’s kind of long but I’ll go ahead and give it in its entirety:

Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards, about the year 700 of the Second Age, and established the Noldorin realm of Eregion. It may be that Gladriel chose it because she knew of the Dwarves of Khazad-dum (Moria). There were and always remained som Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been – not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dum. Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race, and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath; but it was only the host of Nogrod that took part in the assault, and it was destroyed in the battle of Sarn Athrad. The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for it’s outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dum. Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves. In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that Middle-earth could no be saved from the ‘residue of evil’ that Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him. She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs. Moreover Gladriel was a Noldo, and wh had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar: the Dwarves were ‘the Children of Aule’, and Gladriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aule and Yavanna in Valinor.

This passage demonstrates that Belegost's thinking toward the war with Doriath was the more enduring legacy.

[Gil-Galad]

Finally!!You have 7 days from
11-18-2003 03:59 AM GMT to 11-25-2003 03:59 AM GMT
Good Luck

[baragund]

Hellooooo...... Is anybody out there?

Did the Scholars dazzle the Outcasts with our brilliance or did we baffle you with balderdash?:D

[The-Elf-Herself]

*rushes in* Here, here-heeeere we are! Well, here I am. *shrugs* In any case, I suppose I should start.

As the Scholars have made their choice, it falls to we of the GOO to prove that it was Nogrod which had the most enduring legacy through the following ages. I will begin by stating that legacies can be both positive and negative-what the Scholars seem to imply is that the positive legacy of Belegost far outweighs the 'negative' decisions of Nogrod; yet, imagine what Middle Earth would have been like had those dwarves decided against committing their infamous deeds.

The slaying of Thingol set off a dark chain of events that eventually lead to the downfall of Doriath. Melian departed soon after the death of her husband, after her great, impenetrable girdle was breached by the dwarves. Doriath was sacked, left in ruins and though for a time Dior ruled the city, it never regained it's former strength and soon fell a final time to the Sons of Feanor, seeking the Silmaril. This last attack caused Elwing to flee to Sirion and so meet Earendil; they begot Elrond and Elros, who in turn had their own places in the tapestry of fate, etc. Yet all of this would not have occurred had the dwarves of Nogrod not become overcome with desire for the Nauglamir-in their greed, they helped bring about the conception of some of Middle Earth's finest.

While the relations of elves and dwarves did not suffer eternal damage from the actions of the dwarves of Nogrod, it is possible that many elves might not have even existed without those very actions. I would say that is definitely an enduring legacy, albeit more subtle and less noticeable that the honorable works of the Belegost dwarves. The latter's purposed legacy is made more in the absence of acting(besides the valiant efforts in battle and peace), but foolish decisions have their own place in the Music and cannot be discounted.

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life...Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

In this case it is the actions of the Nogrod dwarves that have a greater impact and legacy; though they resulted in death, they eventually lead to life for many other important figures.

[baragund]

I'd like to briefly respond to some of the points made The-Elf-Herself. The impression I get from her post is that Nogrod played the predominant role in the downfall of Doriath. Although I would agree that Nogrod played a large part by choosing to wage war with Doriath over the Nauglamir, I would suggest a three-pronged cause for the downfall that are more or less equivalent. Along with the treachery of the dwarves trying to keep the Nauglamir and their decision to wage war, there were the following:

*Thingol's absolutely horrible handling of the situation when the dwarves indicated they wanted to keep the remade Nauglamir. Reasonable people could think of any number of different ways to diffuse the situation, understand the position of the dwarves and reach an equitable solution. But no... Thingol was overcome with lust for the Silmaril and the Nauglamir and that caused him to 'diss' the dwarvish craftsmen which led to the ensuing violence.

*The oath of Feanor. Even if there was no issue between Doriath and Nogrod, there would always be the seven sons of Feanor to deal with as long as the Silmaril remained in Doriath. Indeed, Celegorm and Curufin vowed to slay Thingol and his people before the Battle of Unnumbered Tears if the Silmaril was not surrendered. And the actual destruction of Doriath was by

One other minor correction, the dwarves did not breach Melian's girdle as was suggested. Melian power withdrewafter Thingol's death which led to Doriath laying open to it's enemies. The host of Nogrod had free access to Doriath.

This tells me that Doriath had a reckoning to deal with regardless of the actions of Nogrod. The dwarves simply served as a catalyst.

[Scatha]

Errr,

I don't mean to scare you folks, but so far three posts have been made and this debate closes in two days. Isn't it about time that we got some more posts in here, or are you guys aiming at the "shortest debate" prize? ;)

[Elfarmari]

On the part of the scholars, I just got back from a retreat and Baragund is now gone. . . I will be posting tomorrow. Sorry!

[The-Elf-Herself]

I apologize-I'm beein trying to get a hold of Nom as well. *shrugs*

*Thingol's absolutely horrible handling of the situation when the dwarves indicated they wanted to keep the remade Nauglamir. Reasonable people could think of any number of different ways to diffuse the situation, understand the position of the dwarves and reach an equitable solution. But no... Thingol was overcome with lust for the Silmaril and the Nauglamir and that caused him to 'diss' the dwarvish craftsmen which led to the ensuing violence.


You discount that the dwarves themselves had become very possessive of the Nauglamir-they were of the greatest craftsmen and having worked so hard on this exquisite piece, would have probably found any reason to be insulted and so see reason to defend their prize. I would say the lust for the gem was equal on both sides.

*The oath of Feanor. Even if there was no issue between Doriath and Nogrod, there would always be the seven sons of Feanor to deal with as long as the Silmaril remained in Doriath. Indeed, Celegorm and Curufin vowed to slay Thingol and his people before the Battle of Unnumbered Tears if the Silmaril was not surrendered. And the actual destruction of Doriath was by

One other minor correction, the dwarves did not breach Melian's girdle as was suggested. Melian power withdrewafter Thingol's death which led to Doriath laying open to it's enemies. The host of Nogrod had free access to Doriath.


Yes, but it was the greed of the dwarves that sparked the conflict between them and Thingol, leading to his death and leaving Doriath without her protection. I doubt the Sons of Feanor would have been able to sack Doriath had her power been in place-and her power would have been in place had Thingol not been slain by the dwarves of Nogrod.

This tells me that Doriath had a reckoning to deal with regardless of the actions of Nogrod. The dwarves simply served as a catalyst.

Doriath's reckoning may not have come yet-timing is everything and had the dwarves not lusted after the Nauglamir themselves, then this reckoning could have been averted-and thus disrupting the meetings of important figures in Middle Earth. As you yourself stated in the opening post:

When they declined to take part in Nogrod’s war with Doriath and counseled them against taking such rash actions, rightly thinking that there must have been more to the story than what Nogrod was telling them, they demonstrated that they had ‘cooler heads’ and were more statesmanlike in their approach to relations with other kingdoms.

Clearly had the dwarves of Belegost been in charge of the Nauglamir, they would have handed it over without demur-Thingol would have been alive and so on. It was the uniquely possessive hunger of the Nogrod dwarves for the gem that caused Thingol to insult, that caused the whole chain of events to occur. While you may dismiss them as being a simple catalyst, let's look at that word:

One that precipitates a process or event, especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences:

This does not concern the Nogrod dwarves, who caused part of their own situation by their greed, who were permanently effected by the consequences and who's actions served as a major benefit to others and were not something that could have been accomplished with 'any group of dwarves'.

[Gil-Galad]

I would like to warn all the debatorsq that the debate will be closed at

03:59 AM GMT
11-25-2003

No posts will be considered valid after the this time.:)

[Elfarmari]

The Silmaril set in the Nauglamir was the object of the possesiveness of the Dwarves. Yes, dwarves are known to have been more proud of their possesions and handiwork than Elves or Men, but in this case the lust for the Silmaril was at work on all who beheld it. Had Doriath not been sacked and destroyed by the Dwarves, the Sons of Feanor, bound by their oath, would have undoubtedly at least attempted to do so themselves. Remember Maedhros and Maglor's hopeless attempt to steal the Silmarils from Eonwe.

Also, the dwarves of Durin's Folk had a large impact on Middle Earth during the Second and Third Ages. Moria was a fastness against Sauron before the awakening of the Balrog, and offered a place of (temporary) refuge, however dagerous, from the eyes of Sauron for Gollum and the Fellowship. The Kings Under the Mountain were another strong kingdom, and their friendship with Dale was a great example of good Dwarven-Men relationships. Thorin's company's desire to retake the Mountain from Smaug ended in the dragon's demise and the re-establishment of the Kingdom Under the Mountain and of Dale. Without these realms to fight Sauron's orcs on that front, Lorien and Rivendell would likely have fallen.

As to Belegost's impact on the First Age, I will reiterate Baragund's points.
Belegost’s legacy is more subtle but more constructive and, ultimately, more enduring. The heroism their army displayed at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, where they stood their ground and drove Glaurung from the battlefield and withdrawing only at the death of their King demonstrated them as steadfast allies. When they declined to take part in Nogrod’s war with Doriath and counseled them against taking such rash actions, rightly thinking that there must have been more to the story than what Nogrod was telling them, they demonstrated that they had ‘cooler heads’ and were more statesmanlike in their approach to relations with other kingdoms.

Because of Belegost's impact of the history of Middle Earth throughout the first three Ages of Middle Earth (and into the fourth, with Arwen's union with Aragorn being possible because of the saving of Rivendell) was a key factor in that history.

[The-Elf-Herself]

The Silmaril set in the Nauglamir was the object of the possesiveness of the Dwarves. Yes, dwarves are known to have been more proud of their possesions and handiwork than Elves or Men, but in this case the lust for the Silmaril was at work on all who beheld it.


Yet baragund himself quoted that the Belegost dwarves were known for their cooler heads-they advised the Nogrod dwarves against their rash actions, so not all dwarves would have been driven to those actions.

Had Doriath not been sacked and destroyed by the Dwarves, the Sons of Feanor, bound by their oath, would have undoubtedly at least attempted to do so themselves. Remember Maedhros and Maglor's hopeless attempt to steal the Silmarils from Eonwe.

Yes, but the keyword is 'attempted'-the odds would be against them succeeding; they would be going up against the power of a Maia incarnate, a powerful king, and an entire city. Only after Thingol had been slain and Melian departed was Doriath truly vulnerable to their attacks-and that only happened because the Nogrod dwarves formed their close attachment to the Nauglamir, a particularly close possessiveness which caused them to become so offended they acted rashly.

Also, the dwarves of Durin's Folk had a large impact on Middle Earth during the Second and Third Ages. Moria was a fastness against Sauron before the awakening of the Balrog, and offered a place of (temporary) refuge, however dagerous, from the eyes of Sauron for Gollum and the Fellowship. The Kings Under the Mountain were another strong kingdom, and their friendship with Dale was a great example of good Dwarven-Men relationships. Thorin's company's desire to retake the Mountain from Smaug ended in the dragon's demise and the re-establishment of the Kingdom Under the Mountain and of Dale. Without these realms to fight Sauron's orcs on that front, Lorien and Rivendell would likely have fallen.

Because of Belegost's impact of the history of Middle Earth throughout the first three Ages of Middle Earth (and into the fourth, with Arwen's union with Aragorn being possible because of the saving of Rivendell) was a key factor in that history.

Yes, but might I bring up this point about that-Aragorn descended from the Numenoreans, the race that began with Elros. Elros and Elrond-both key figures in Middle Earth's history, sons of Earendil and Elwing, also important, necessary figures in the First and Second Ages. They would never have met had Elwing not been forced to flee Doriath at that time-and it is timing that is really the key. Yes, maybe Doriath would have fallen much later-and maybe Earendil would have married someone else, etc, but that wasn't in line with the Music. What was in order was that dwarves, the Nogrod in particular due to their lack of cool heads, grew possessive of the Nauglamir, slew Thingol and set the whole chain of events in motion; their legacy is told in the births of figures essential to the downfall of evil.

[Gil-Galad]

Just to remind you that you have less than 5 hours :)

[Elfarmari]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Nogrod and Belegost were two of the most renowned Mansions of the Naugrim throughout the History of Middle-Earth. Which of these long-departed citadels rendered the most enduring legacy through the ages following their destruction, after the reshaping of Beleriand?
I think we have both strayed from the time period in question, namely the ages after the War of Wrath. Hence the questions of the houses' effects on the events of the First Age are irrelevant. (I just re-realized this)

Taking this into account, the question is which house left the most enduring legacy from the Second age on. As I see it the argument for Nogrod is as follows:

Nogrod: destruction of Doriath -- flight of Elwing -- marriage of Elwing and Earendil, silmaril comes to Earendil -- birth of Elros and Elrond -- effect on Numenor and Rivendell -- Arwen marries Aragorn -- effect on Gondor

I would argue that Ulmo would have contrived to have Earendil's voyage happen whether Elwing was forced to flee from Doriath at that time or not. This is however clearly a hypothesis.

Our case for Belegost:
Belegost:

trustworthiness in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears -- improved trust between Dwarves and Elves and Men -- alliance in later ages (Moria-Eregion, role in Last Alliance (?), Kingdom under Mountain-Dale) -- defense of Kingdom under Mountain and Dale during War of the Ring -- protection of Rivendell, Lorien, Mirkwood, ultimately Gondor -- drew Sauron's armies away from war with Gondor -- saved Arwen in Rivendell -- helped Gondor survive and flourish under Aragorn and Arwen

Durin's Folk -- establishment of Moria -- mutual benefit from Elves of Eregion -- Last Alliance (?) -- Kingdom under Mountain -- alliance with Gandalf -- destruction of Smaug -- restoration of Kingdom Under Mountain and of Dale -- Gimli in the Fellowship -- (see above)

(Apparently Inderjit isn't posting, so I guess this is our concluding post.)

[The-Elf-Herself]

Here is the concluding post for the GOO:

Nogrod: destruction of Doriath -- flight of Elwing -- marriage of Elwing and Earendil, silmaril comes to Earendil -- birth of Elros and Elrond -- effect on Numenor and Rivendell -- Arwen marries Aragorn -- effect on Gondor

trustworthiness in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears -- improved trust between Dwarves and Elves and Men -- alliance in later ages (Moria-Eregion, role in Last Alliance (?), Kingdom under Mountain-Dale) -- defense of Kingdom under Mountain and Dale during War of the Ring -- protection of Rivendell, Lorien, Mirkwood, ultimately Gondor -- drew Sauron's armies away from war with Gondor -- saved Arwen in Rivendell -- helped Gondor survive and flourish under Aragorn and Arwen

Durin's Folk -- establishment of Moria -- mutual benefit from Elves of Eregion -- Last Alliance (?) -- Kingdom under Mountain -- alliance with Gandalf -- destruction of Smaug -- restoration of Kingdom Under Mountain and of Dale -- Gimli in the Fellowship -- (see above)

You forget one important thing-without Elros, there would be no Numenoreans to enrich the men of Middle Earth, no downfall which lead to the formation of Gondor and Arnor, no Rangers of the north or the south to wage a daily battle again evil. It doesn't merely have an 'effect' upon them-they do not exist, because he does not exist. Without Elrond, there is no Arwen-period. He is not there to aid Gil-galad in the Last Alliance battle, nor to offer his counsel in any other way. Without Elros and Elrond, there is no Fellowship, for it was Elros's descendants and Elrond who helped bring that about.

Our final argument is that the dwarves of Nogrod(being the more volatile of the only two groups of master dwarvish craftsmen) had a unique and important part in the Music. Their role in creating the Nauglamir, slaying Thingol(causing Melian to leave and so leaving Doriath far more vulnerable than it would have been originally) was a 'necessary evil' which lead to Elwing's fleeing of Doriath with the Silmaril and meeting Earendil: this in turn caused the births of two essential beings who had a unimaginably positive effect on the outcome in the war against Sauron.

[Gil-Galad]

The debate is closed.:)
Thank you to both Guilds.