Round 10: Periaur vs. OiE [Archive]

Snaga

11-11-2003, 07:39 PM

The Periaur will be saying that the dwarves did deserve the help of Bilbo. Let me present the reasons why this should be so.

The first, and primary reason why Thorin's Company deserved his help was the same reason that they deserved Gandalf's help, Elrond's help... anyone's help. They deserved it because they cause was good.

- Erebor was their's by right. They had every justification in seeking to regain it.
- The defeat of Smaug would remove an evil from Middle Earth, and a threat hanging over many people.

If the cause is good, then they deserved any support and assistance that Bilbo is prepared to give them.

Which leads me to my second point. They deserved his help because they were prepared to pay him well, and treat him fairly and professionally. A fourteenth share of the treasure is a very considerable sum, and so Bilbo stands to do very well from the quest.

And thirdly, Bilbo's willingness to help shows he felt they were deserving of help. And as the help is his to give, who has the right to say they didnt deserve it.

Against this position, our opponents may throw many arguments. Let me see what I can anticipate, and answer.

I imagine they will characterise the dwarves attitude to Bilbo as rude and disrespectful. There is some truth to this, although in fact they were for the most part very polite. We will, if called to, be able to show that the dwarves had great cause for scepticism about the ability of hobbits to help against a dragon, and moreover that Gandalf had allowed them to go to Bag End under mistaken pretences about Bilbo (ie thinking he was a professional burglar when he was not). Little wonder if they were somewhat concerned about taking him along. The rest may be put down to Thorin's haughtiness, which while unappealing may be forgiven by us, since Bilbo didn't let it rankle with him either.

And no doubt the affair of the Arkenstone will be introduced at some point, to say that Thorin's attitude at this stage was undeserving of help. But I want to argue very clearly that at this point Bilbo STOPS helping Thorin, clearly thinking that Thorin no longer deserves help, or needs it. Bilbo has fulfilled his agreement, and decides to help Bard the Bowman instead. So what Thorin does or doesnt deserve at the end is irrelevant, since no help is given after Smaug is killed.

The question is, "Did Thorin's company deserve all that Bilbo did for them?" Bilbo helped Thorin's company get to the Lonely Mountain, and helped them gather information about the dragon, including the information that Bard used to kill Smaug. All of this help was well-deserved, and given willingly, because the cause was just and reward was both fair and generous. They did deserve to be helped to return to Erebor to reclaim the Kingdom Under the Mountain, that was what Bilbo helped with, and it did a great deal of good to Middle Earth.

Arvedui

11-12-2003, 11:06 AM

Did Thorin's company deserve all that Bilbo did for them?

No.

Two of the main reasons for this can be found in Unfinished Tales - The Quest of Erebor:
1) Thorin and his companion only cared for their own cause, not of the Free Peoples as a whole.
2) Thorin and his company didn't want to bring Bilbo (or any Hobbit for that matter) along in the first place!

First of all, Thorin planned to retake Erebor through battle and war.I (Gandalf) was as eager as he was to see the end of Smaug, but Thorin was all for plans of battle and war, as if he were really King Thorin the Second, and I could see no hope in that.
And Thorin's thoughts to see the end of Smaug wasn't just because he himself had found out that Smaug must be killed:I (Gandalf) soon understood that his heart was hot with brooding on his wrongs, and the loss of the treasure of his forefathers, and burdened too with the duty of revenge upon Smaug that he had inherited.
Now to the thougths of Thorin concerning Bilbo:So I (still Gandalf) rode off back to Thorin in haste, to tackle the difficult task of persuading him to put aside his lofty designs and go secretly - and take Bilbo with him. Without seeing Bilbo first. It was a mistake, and nearly proved disastrous. For Bilbo had changed, of course. At least, he was getting rather greedy and fat, and his old desires had dwindled down to a sort of private dream. Nothing could have been more dismaying than to find it actually in danger of coming true! He was altogether bewildered, and made a complete fool of himself. Thorin would have left in rage, but for another strange chance, which I will mention in a moment. The 'other strange chance' was that Gandalf produced the map and the key. And that really saved bilbo's participation in the quest.
For one thing he (Bilbo) did not realize at all how fatuous the Dwarves thought him, nor how angry they were with me (Gandalf). Thorin was much more indignant and contemptuous than he perceived. He was indeed contemptuous from the beginning, and thought then that I had planned the affair simply so as to make a mock of him. It was only the map and the key that saved the situation.
And then comes an interesting part:As soon as Thorin saw them he really made up his mind to follow my plan, as far as secret expedition went at any rate. Whatever he thought of Bilbo he would have set out himself. The existence of a secret door, only discoverable by Dwarves, made it at least seem possible to find out something of the Dragon's doings, perhaps even recover some gold, or some heirloom to ease his heart's longings.
But still Gandalf had to persuade Thorin to bring Bilbo along.I knew in my heart that Bilbo must go with him, or the whole quest would be a failure - or, as I should say now, the far more important events by the way would not come to pass. So I still had to persuade Thorin to take him. There were many difficulties on the road afterwards, but for me this was the most difficult part of the whole affair. Though I argued with him far into the night after Bilbo had retired, it was not finally settled until early the next morning. Thorin was contemptuous and suspicious. 'He is soft,' he snorted. 'Soft as the mud of his Shire, and silly. His mother died too soon. You are playing some crooked game of your own, Master Gandalf. I am sure that you have other purposes than helping me.'
'You are quite right.' I said. If I had no other purposes, I should not be helping you at all. Great as you affairs may seem to you, they are only a small strand in the great web. I am concerned with many strands. But that should make my advice more weighty, not less.' I spoke at last with great heat. 'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield!' I said. 'If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.'
'I know your fame,' Thorin answered. 'I hope it is merited. But this foolish business of your Hobbit makes me wonder whether it is foresight that is on you, and you are not crazed rather than foreseeing. So many cares have disordered your wits.'
'They have certainly been enough to do so,' I said. 'And among them I find most exasperating a proud Dwarf who seeks advice from me (without any claim on me that I know of), and then rewards me with insolence. Go your own ways, Thorin Oakenshield, if you will. But if you flout my advice, you will walk to disaster. And you will get neither counsel nor aid from me again until the Shadow falls on you. And curb your pride and your greed, or you will fall at the end of whatever path you take, though your hands be full of gold.'
He blenched a little at that; but his eyes smouldered. 'Do not threaten me!' he said. 'I will use my own judgement in this matter, as in all that concerns me.'
'Do so then!' I said. 'I can say no more - unless it is this: I do not give my love or trust lightly, Thorin; but I am fond of this Hobbit, and wish him well. Treat him well, and you shall have my friendship to the end of your days.' Gandalf said that without any hope of persuading Thorin, but it was the best thing he could have said. Dwarves understand devotion to friends and gratitude to those who help them. So Thorin accepted the company of Bilbo after some thought. But he demanded that Gandalf should join them and look after Bilbo, which Gandalf promised to do until Bilbo had proven his worth.

So far, we have proven that there are two reasons that the dwarves did not deserve all that Bilbo did for them:
1) The Dwarves only cared about Smaug in the way that he occupied their old mansion, and kept their treasures. They didn't care one bit for the other complications that Smaug represented as a threat to the west.
2) The Dwarves didn't want Bilbo to come along. Gandalf had to persuade and threathen Thorin before he accepted Bilbo as a companion.

Snaga

11-12-2003, 06:03 PM

I think we can quickly tackle these two objections.

The first reason: "Thorin and his companion only cared for their own cause, not of the Free Peoples as a whole."

It is of course uncontraversial that Thorin was mostly interested in the fate of his own people. After all, he was their chieftain, their leader. The responsibility of Durin's people rested upon his shoulders. If anyone sees something shameful or wrong in the dwarves wanting to look after their own interests, let them post the reasons!

But in any case, Erebor was theirs AS OF RIGHT! Their cause was, regardless of wider implications JUSTIFIED, and RIGHT. IF Thorin was full of thoughts of revenge, it was because Smaug had slain many of his people, and brought his grandfather's realm to ruin. Imagine, oh Ost-in-Edhil, how your grandchildren would feel!:p

But let us consider Gandalf's reaction to Thorin's desires? Did he say: 'this dwarf is being selfish, in wanting to put an end to Smaug; therefore he does not deserve help?' Of course not! He said that his cause was of wider benefit, as well as being deserving in its own right! Bilbo was of course rather less strategically aware, but his feel for justice was good.

The second objection is:"Thorin and his company didn't want to bring Bilbo (or any Hobbit for that matter) along in the first place!"

The answer to this point is of course that they changed their mind! Gandalf persuaded Thorin that he should take Bilbo along.

The implication of your position is that Bilbo should have guessed that Thorin had previously not wanted him to go and refused to help him on the basis that Thorin didnt instantly think him suitable. It pains me to point out the obvious, but Bilbo himself had rather grave doubts on the subject.

"Sorry! I don't want any adventures, thank you. Not today!"

"Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!"

Gandalf says of him: "There is a lot more in him than you guess, and a deal more than he has any idea of himself."

Which probably explains why, after hearing all about the quest: "The Tookishness was wearing off, and he was now not so sure that he was going on any journey in the morning."

But he does, largely through not wanting be thought of as 'not good enough' decide to go. In which case, the dwarves doubts can be seen as part of Bilbo's motivation for setting out at all.

I suppose it depends on how you think is good to react to other people's doubts. Should you get in a sulk, and refuse to help; or would you be determined to prove yourself? Bilbo chose the latter path, and the dwarves came to respect him. Why would he do this? A major reason was that the dwarves had every reason to be sceptical about Bilbo. He shows no sign of being prepared for the expedition, and at one point shrieks and faints with fright... at a story! Bilbo knew he had no right to expect to be thought of as suitable for the journey, he knew he had something to prove. So he didn't blame the dwarves, but instead set about proving them wrong. It was an admirable attitude, that lies at the heart of his heroism.

To summarise: it is unreasonable to say the dwarves didnt deserve Bilbo's help because they were skeptical about his ability to help, when he was entirely unproven. Gandalf persuaded them to include him despite their doubts, and on that basis Bilbo's judgement that they deserved his help was correct.

Ravenna

11-12-2003, 09:20 PM

Ok lets take these one at a time.
Snaga said

The first, and primary reason why Thorin's Company deserved his help was the same reason that they deserved Gandalf's help, Elrond's help... anyone's help. They deserved it because they cause was good.

- Erebor was their's by right. They had every justification in seeking to regain it.

No argument from me that the Dwarves had the right to try to regain their ancestral home. However their motives for doing so were primarily selfish. They wished to regain their wealth and prestige, and to get revenge upon Smaug.

Greed , pride and revenge, it must be said are not particularly laudable motives to inspire unlimited help.

- The defeat of Smaug would remove an evil from Middle Earth, and a threat hanging over many people.

This was not the reason of the Dwarves. It was entirely down to Gandalf.
To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and the Dragon. The Dragon, Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself 'I must find some means of dealing with Smaug'.

This is certainly a worthy cause, but as I said, it is not that of the Dwarves and therefore cannot really be used as justification for all Bilbo's help.
In addition, Bilbo at the time knew little or nothing of these higher matters and therefore they would not have influenced him.

Which leads me to my second point. They deserved his help because they were prepared to pay him well, and treat him fairly and professionally. A fourteenth share of the treasure is a very considerable sum, and so Bilbo stands to do very well from the quest.

Again, very true that payment was to be made and that it was a fair recompense for the service agreed upon. However, what was the payment to be for?
It was for Bilbo's services as a BURGLAR! Not as a rescuer from every eventuality!
Obviously , as part of the company, Bilbo would be expected to help out in sticky situations which arose. But in almost every situation, apart from those in which Gandalf was present, it was Bilbo alone who rescued the others. He saved them from the spiders; he got them out of the Elven King's dungeons. And what did they do when he was lost under the mountains, they sat and grumbled about him being a more trouble than he was worth!
This was well over and above what the agreed payment was for, and therefore the help rendered was far in excess of what the payment deserved.

Finally let us turn to Bilbos willingness.

And thirdly, Bilbo's willingness to help shows he felt they were deserving of help. And as the help is his to give, who has the right to say they didnt deserve it.

Two points here.
1/ Just because someone is willing to help someone else does not necessarily mean that that person is deserving of that help, simply that the helper wishes to help.

2/ Self interest. This surely plays a part in Bilbo's help. After all, without the Dwarves, especially after Gandalf's departure, how much hope had Bilbo of getting home again?
The fact that Bilbo does in fact rescue the Dwarves time and again, completely unaided does not interfere with the fact that he had to rescue them in order to help himself.
Obvously this is not his only motive, but it does play a part and has nothing to do with whether or not the Dwarves deserved the help.

In summation. Whilst the payment secured Bilbo's help with the actual burglary. The sheer amount of help which he in the end provided went far beyond what was deserved, being in a large part inspired by self preservation and also, as Snaga states in his second post
Bilbo knew he had no right to expect to be thought of as suitable for the journey, he knew he had something to prove. So he didn't blame the dwarves, but instead set about proving them wrong.
He wanted to prove that the Dwarves were mistaken in thinking that he was useless. What has that got to do with them deserving the help?

Very little I would say.

Snaga

11-13-2003, 01:20 AM

No argument from me that the Dwarves had the right to try to regain their ancestral home. However their motives for doing so were primarily selfish.What a purist you are! How dreadfully selfish, to try to regain your home which was taken by force! This is absolute nonsense. Lets be clear: 13 dwarves set out, heroically, to regain Erebor ON BEHALF OF ALL THE FOLK OF DURIN!! They risked their lives, against horrendous odds!! And you want to label them as selfish? Shame on you!

Now Bilbo may not have been Middle Earth greatest political strategist, but I can tell you without too much room for doubt that he would know that dwarves are generally decent, and dragons are generally not. So when a group of dwarves come to your house, and tell you how their great realm was taken from them by dragons, and they would like you to help them regain it, what goes through your head? What went through Bilbo's head was a lot of fear at the prospect of adventures, and a certain amount of excitement too... but not a shred of doubt that their cause was a just and deserving one. Perhaps you are the sort of person that thinks 'Bah! You are so selfish, thinking only of your own home when there are geo-political complexities to consider. You don't deserve my help!' If so, I daresay you don't help people very often!

Now you turn to the payment, which you consider to be "fair recompense" for his "services as a burglar" but "not as a rescuer for every eventuality". This is bizarre! You think he should have renegotiated for a bigger share? Perhaps when he found Thorin in the elven jail, he should say "Sorry Thorin, I could get you out but its not my job description? But if there's any burgling to be done, just say the word". What is the going rate for rescuing your companions? I thought you were all against being selfish?!

But in almost every situation, apart from those in which Gandalf was present, it was Bilbo alone who rescued the others. He saved them from the spiders; he got them out of the Elven King's dungeons. And what did they do when he was lost under the mountains, they sat and grumbled about him being a more trouble than he was worth!Yes, when he got lost in the goblin tunnels, they did grumble about him. Mind you at that stage, he hadn't performed any of those resues you listed there, had he? Very sneaky of you to try to reverse the order of events in the book in order to try to prove your so-called point! Meanwhile at various points the dwarves have to carry Bilbo, help him into trees etc etc... That's not exactly convenient (or contracted for!), but they do it!

Whichever way you look at it, a fourteenth share of the hoard was ample reward. The Return Journey
Even a fourteenth share was wealth exceedingly great, greater than that of many mortal kings.Was that really not enough? Only in the highly-priced world of Ravenna!

He wanted to prove that the Dwarves were mistaken in thinking that he was useless. What has that got to do with them deserving the help?Please pay attention! Your colleagues argued that because the dwarves were not convinced of Bilbo's usefulness, they didnt deserve the help. I replied (and you should feel free to read my post again as many times as you need) that they had every reason to doubt Bilbo's worth, and Bilbo had not concluded that they didnt deserve his help, he had wanted to prove them wrong.

Just because someone is willing to help someone else does not necessarily mean that that person is deserving of that help, simply that the helper wishes to help.No, and of course I never said that. But I did say that Bilbo judged they deserved his help. And I will say that Bilbo's help is for him to give to those that he wishes, and therefore his judgement is highly relevant. It may not be crucial, but unless you can prove he was actually wrong to help, that his help was harmful, evil or malicious, then he is entitled to decide for himself who deserves his help. He thought the dwarves deserved his help, and I see no reason to disagree with him.

Arvedui

11-13-2003, 09:43 AM

Sorry snaga, but we don't need to prove that Bilbo was wrong in helping the Dwarves. This debate is about whether or not the Dwarves deserved all the help that Bilbo gave them.

Nice try, but that one is a non-starter.;)

The Dwarves wanted Bilbo as a Burglar, nothing else. That was what was discussed, and that was what was mentioned in the letter from the Dwarves to Bilbo, btw written on Bilbo's writing-paper...
It was the Dwarves that started to expect things that was not a part of the deal from Bilbo:But after a time the light began to fail, and then other questions were asked. Where were they, and where was their path, and where was there any food, and what were they going to do next? These questions they asked over and over again, and it was from little Bilbo that they seemed to expect to get the answers. From The Hobbit - Flies and Spiders

And how did the Dwarves thank Bilbo when he had rescued them from the cellars of the Wood-elves? Take a look at this. First, Thorin thanks Bilbo after being released from his cell, stating I am sure we are all for ever at your service, whatever happens after this. But what comes next? And when Bilbo explained what his plan was, then the Dwarves reacted such:they did not like it a bit, and started grumbling loudly in spite of their danger.
"We shall be bruised and battered to pieces, and drowned too, for certain!" they muttered. "We thought you had some sensible notion, when you managed to get hold of the keys. This is a mad idea!" This reaction alone show that the Dwarves did not deserve what Bilbo did for them.

Now to Bilbo's motives.

snaga claims that the Dwarves deserved Bilbo's help because Bilbo gave it to them. That is a very strange argument indeed. Bilbo was a very honest hobbit, and that is why he helped the dwarves out of their misery, although he could perfectly well have turned his back on them both when they were caught by the spiders, and when they where caught by the Wood-elves. No-one could expect that Bilbo should be able to help thirteen Dwarves out of such miserable situations. If he had given up and returned home, then nothing could prevented him from doing that. Insted, Bilbo went ahead, and did the unthinkable. And the reward for this was loud grumbeling inside the Halls of the Wood-elves! And later when Bilbo had given the Arkenstone to Bard, Thorin called him all the terrible things that he could think of:"You! You!" cried Thorin, turning upon him and grasping him with both hands. "You miserable hobbit! You undersized burglar!" he shouted at a loss for words, and he shook poor Bilbo like a rabbit.
"By the beard of Durin! I wish I had Gandalf here! Curse him for his choice of you! May his beard wither! As for you I will throw you to the rocks! he cried and lifted Bilbo in his arms. Even calling Bilbo a descendant of rats!
And then Thorin withdrew Bilbo's reward. Do not forget that.
Thorin wanted to trade the Arkenstone against one fourteenth of the share of silver and gold, setting the gems aside. But that 'ransom' was Bilbo's share. Thorin said it straight. So what he wanted, was to get the Arkenstone back, with less cost than what it would have been if he had been true to his promise to Bilbo:
- One fourteenth of all profits.
Now it is one fourteenth, minus the gems. And this is now a ransom for the Arkenstone, and where Bilbo should try to get his share.

Does such behaviour show that Thorin and his company deserved what Bilbo did for them? No.
If it wasn't for Bilbo, then they wouldn't even have got as far as the Lonely Mountain!

Snaga

11-13-2003, 02:22 PM

I say that Bilbo's help was for him to decide who deserved it or not. Unless you can find an over-riding reason why he morally wrong to help them, then I don't doubt that he was right. Of course you will disagree with that, but I put it to the judges that this point is true. And since I have shown beyond any doubt that he was RIGHT to help them, and their cause did deserve all the support that he was prepared to give, I am very happy with this position.

But instead you wish to contest each and every piece of help that Bilbo gave. I don't see that this will get you anywhere, but I'm game.:)

You argue in a legalistic tone that Bilbo was only contractually obliged to perform tasks as a burglar, and thus the dwarves did not deserve his help. Well the letter itself, addressed to 'Burglar Bilbo' says: "for your offer of professional assistance our grateful acceptance." Now of course exactly what is within the scope of "professional assistance" is not at all spelt out. Neither the dwarves nor Bilbo thought of it in these terms. It is facile to think in these terms. Are you really saying that Bilbo should down tools when confronted with situations requiring him to do more than just burglary? It is too ridiculous! The point is of course, that Bilbo knew that his reward was very fair. As he felt he was being treated fairly he felt that the dwarves did deserve his help.

Look at the opposite view: once the dwarves were lost in the woods, and captured by spiders, would they have deserved to have been left there to die by Bilbo? Or would they have deserved to have been left to rot in the elven king's dungeon? Of course not! But Arvedui thinks so. Why? Because the dwarves "grumbled" at having to be stuffed into barrels. They grumbled, and Bilbo admonished them for it, and they decided to go along with the plan. I suppose if they had outright refused to go along with the plan you could say they deserved to left in prison. But for a little grumbling? It sounds harsh to me! If you think about it, if Bilbo, at the first grumbles had lost his temper and refused to help them any further, you would say that was completely undeserved. After all they were only expressing their dislike of the idea of being stuffed into barrels! If in the cantankerous world of Ost-in-Edhil this is a grave offence, then you must be a grouchy group!;)

Of course, Ost-in-Edhil in their haste to say the dwarves did not deserve any help from Bilbo, want to forget any help the dwarves gave Bilbo. How about the dwarves carrying Bilbo on their backs through the goblin tunnels because he wasnt fast enough to escape on his own feet? Or how about helping him up into the trees so the wolves didnt catch him? One good turn deserves another, as the saying goes, and it is undeniable that the dwarves did get Bilbo out of trouble. Therefore the dwarves deserved Bilbo's help too.

Of course, predictably, the matter of the Arkenstone is raised. I was waiting for this! I'll address it in my next post!;)

Arvedui

11-13-2003, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by snaga1
IOf course, Ost-in-Edhil in their haste to say the dwarves did not deserve any help from Bilbo, want to forget any help the dwarves gave Bilbo.
I am afraid that you are misreading us a little, dear snaga.
The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil are NOT saying that the Dwarves did not deserve any help from Bilbo. Very clever of you to try and give us other opinions than we have, but this is obviously wrong. Nice try;)

Again: the topic is NOT if the Dwarves deserved any help. The question is if they deserved all that Bilbo did for them. You see, it is not even limited to help. It is what he DID.

So what did Bilbo do?
-He gave them food and beverages when they came stumbling uncalled for through his door. Yes, his polite manner and probably upbringing made this the right thing to do for Bilbo. But if someone had stumbled through your door like that, snaga, I doubt if you would have done what Bilbo did.

- He tried to pick William's pocket, leading to the horrible result that all of the Dwarves were caught, and nearly ended as a late supper. I honestly think that they didn't deserve that!

- He saved them from the spiders. This was quite nice of him, and as I personally dislike spiders, I am inclined to say that noone deserved to be spider-food. Others may disagree.

- He released them from imprisonment with the Wood-elves. I think that noone deserves to be held as prisoner just because they don't want to tell what they are up to, or because they are of another race. But I still claim that the Dwarves were ungrateful towards Bilbo.

- He provided a method of transportation to Lake-town. Not intentionally, and certainly not comfortable, but still a transportation, and the only one that was good, at that.
And again Thorin was grumbling It was some time before he would be even polite to the hobbit.

- He was the one to pay attention, and hailed the others when the conditions were right for the secret entrance to be opened, therefore allowing Thorin to be there with the key.

- He let the Dwarves keep the biggest part of his promised payment. This was also something that Bilbo did for them. After all they had been through, after all the times they had been saved from serious trouble by Bilbo, did they really deserve that Bilbo only brought with him two small chests? I don't think so.

Finally, I would like you to make up your mind.

Twice now, you have stated that the Dwarves deserved Bilbo's help, because Bilbo wanted to give them that help:
And thirdly, Bilbo's willingness to help shows he felt they were deserving of help. And as the help is his to give, who has the right to say they didnt deserve it.
andTo summarise: it is unreasonable to say the dwarves didnt deserve Bilbo's help because they were skeptical about his ability to help, when he was entirely unproven. Gandalf persuaded them to include him despite their doubts, and on that basis Bilbo's judgement that they deserved his help was correct.
But you have also said twice that Bilbo went along to prove the Dwarves wrong:Should you get in a sulk, and refuse to help; or would you be determined to prove yourself? Bilbo chose the latter path, and the dwarves came to respect him. Why would he do this? A major reason was that the dwarves had every reason to be sceptical about Bilbo. He shows no sign of being prepared for the expedition, and at one point shrieks and faints with fright... at a story! Bilbo knew he had no right to expect to be thought of as suitable for the journey, he knew he had something to prove. So he didn't blame the dwarves, but instead set about proving them wrong.
and
Please pay attention! Your colleagues argued that because the dwarves were not convinced of Bilbo's usefulness, they didnt deserve the help. I replied (and you should feel free to read my post again as many times as you need) that they had every reason to doubt Bilbo's worth, and Bilbo had not concluded that they didnt deserve his help, he had wanted to prove them wrong.
How can one argue against a team that has two completely different opinions on one matter. Even in the same post! (Your third, if you are interested...)

Celebthôl

11-13-2003, 08:24 PM

Just a few points i'd like to bring up; the small matter of the Mithril coat; Bilbo recieved something that was most likely more than the 14th he was promised. This Mithril coat was in total value more of the entire Shire and all things within it. This by far compensated for all that he did for the Dwarves, and even when he was discovered for what he did with the Arkenstone, he got to keep the coat, and ontop of that, he was still given the 14th he was promised, which was traded for the Arkenstone AND he was given the chests of gold and silver by Dain. So how then can the dwarves not deserve all that Bilbo did for them? He was given what was more like 1/10th of (by my reconing) of the total gold. He also earnt the friendship and respect of the Dwarves of Erebor AND the gold from the Trolls lair, although he did give that up (as he thought it wasnt rightly his because it came from thieves), he still had it and I haven't read anywhere that the Dwarves saw any of it.

Ravenna

11-13-2003, 08:57 PM

Our opponents seem to believe that we are suggesting that the Dwarves deserved no help at all.
Are you really saying that Bilbo should down tools when confronted with situations requiring him to do more than just burglary?

This is blatantly untrue, please reread my previous post. I have already stated that in any such venture mutual help in difficult situations would obviously be expected. What we are saying is that the sheer amount of help that the Dwarves expected of Bilbo, went far beyond what could reasonably be expected from any small Hobbit out in the wide world for the first time, whereas the help they gave to him was no more than that which they would have given to each other in a similar situation.
Add to this the fact that it was in Bilbo's best interest to help the Dwarves as much as possible. Without them, he would have had little or no chance of getting home again
He did not wish to desert the Dwarves, and indeed he did not know where in the world to go without them.
This last has little to do with how deserving the Dwarves were, but is more about Bilbo's own character and needs.

One small comment on the payment issue. Snaga gives us a quote showing how much one fourteenth share actually was, and says that for that amount of wealth, Bilbo should have done anything and everything that was demanded of him. Now who is trying to reverse the order of the book to prove a point?
When Bilbo aided the Dwarves in their various predicaments, he had no true idea of precisely how much the share was going to be, (if any were to be had in the end at all).
up to and including one fourteenth of total profits (if any).
There was no guarantee of ANY profit at all at the time Bilbo did the things he did.
your quote came after the whole adventure was over.

Snaga

11-13-2003, 09:15 PM

Are you trying to be clever, Arvedui? Try harder!

Firstly the question is NOT if they deserved all Bilbo did, it is all Bilbo 'did for them' ... and if I translate that into 'help', I can't see what is wrong with that. Its really a desperate measure to throw in examples of Bilbo messing up, as an example of undeserved actions.

Of course, you laughably argue that Bilbo's bungled pick-pocketing landed them into trouble was undeserved by the dwarves. Was that a joke? Well obviously that trouble was 'undeserved' but Bilbo didn't attempt his pick-pocketing 'for' the dwarves. He did it to try to prove himself, and against Thorin's instructions. He was meant to come back and report, but instead he messed up. So, sorry, that wasnt something he did 'for' the dwarves, so whether or not it was undeserved is frankly more or less irrelevant.

But lets at least say that Bilbo's bungle was forgiven, and so is one more reason why the dwarves deserved Bilbo's help.

Lets consider your other examples. The 'Unexpected Party'... I'm slightly neutral on this one. I think here that Gandalf is at fault, by inviting the dwarves without Bilbo's knowledge. At least the dwarves helped with the dishes! Are we really going to make a huge issue of this? I'd make mention of the provisions and pony that the dwarves provided to Bilbo along the way if we really want to get into this one!:)

The spiders: good. I'm glad we can say that there was nothing undeserved about this.

The escape from the Elven-King....

Barrels out of Bond
"Upon my word!" said Thorin, when Bilbo whispered him to come out and join his friends, "Gandalf spoke true, as usual! A pretty fine burglar you make, it seems, when the time comes."Interesting... this was supposed to be one of the examples of 'non-burgling'!:D Perhaps not!! You say they "grumbled", and indeed they did. But then "they calmed down". I don't think grumbling is such a horrendous crime, when faced with the prospect of being stuffed into a barrel and tossed into a river! It was not going to be a comfortable or particularly safe escape... Lets consider further...

You give a quote, conveniently abridged of course! Allow me to give a little more. I apologise to readers and judges, for lengthy quoting can be tedious, but in this case the wider quote is necessary.Groans came from inside [Thorin's barrel], and out crept a most unhappy dwarf. Wet straw was in his bedraggled beard; he was so sore and stiff, so bruised and buffeted he could hardly stand or stumble through the shallow water to lie groaning on the shore. He had a famished and a savage look like a dog that has been chained and forgotten in a kennel for a week. It was Thorin, but you could only have told from his golden chain, and by his now dirty and tattered sky-blue hood with its tarnished silver tassel. It was some time before he would even be polite to the hobbit.

"Well, are you alive or are you dead?" asked Bilbo, quite crossly. Perhaps he had forgotten that he had had at least one good meal more than the dwarves, and also the use of his arms and legs, not to speak of a greater allowance of air.

If we look in 'A Warm Welcome' we find that when they come ashore, Bilbo tries to hunt down which are the right barrels but 'only discovered about six dwarves that could answer'. They 'were so soaked and bruised and cramped that they could hardly yet realise their release or be properly thankful for it.' Fili states he is 'sick with hunger'. Those were the lucky ones! Bombur was 'asleep or senseless'; the rest were 'waterlogged and seemed only half alive; they all had to be carried one by one and laid helpless on the shore.'

Now, remember here we are looking for a lack of gratitude so overwhelming that it makes the dwarves undeserving of help. What are Thorin's first words to Bilbo.

A Warm Welcome
"Well! Here we are!" said Thorin. "And I suppose we ought to thank our stars and Mr Baggins. I am sure he has a right to expect it, though I wish he could have arranged a more comfortable journey. Still - all very much at your service once more, Mr Baggins. No doubt we shall feel properly grateful, when we are fed and recovered. Now tell me what is so ungracious about those words? They sound both grateful and honest to me! Later we find:Then, as he [Thorin] had said, the dwarves' good feeling toward the hobbit grew stronger every day. There were no more groans or grumbles. They drank his health, and they patted him on the back, and they made a great fuss of him So this nonsense about a lack of gratitude is just not based on fact at all.

Next, you make mention of him finding the key hole. Yes he did. And that was undeserved for what reason? Did you have a point here? Of course, all matter to do with getting inside the mountain were his area, as the appointed burglar. Surely the legalistic minds of Ost-in-Edhil don't have some clause in the contract which excludes the finding of key-holes?!:p

As for the treasure, I believe Thol will have posted something in reply by the time this post is finished but for good measure, lets correct you on a question of fact. Bilbo gave his portion to Bard, and not to the dwarves. And Dain promptly gave him more. Bilbo decided not to take as much as was offered, because it was more than he needed and because it would be hard to transport so far in safety. Good reasons, I feel, but one's to do with self-interest rather than doing the dwarves a favour.

That explodes each of your allegations against the dwarves, all of your examples (except the Arkenstone question which I will turn to soon, I promise!)

Finally you say I am contradicting myself. Where? I say Bilbo decided the dwarves cause was deserving of help, and he had the right to make that decision and that he did so despite scepticism of the dwarves, because he wanted to prove them wrong. What is contradictory? He didnt think their scepticism made them undeserving. You have yet to explain why he was wrong!

Oh by the way... are you ever going to address the question of it being obviously a deserving cause to try to regain your home from a dragon?

Snaga

11-13-2003, 09:35 PM

Yes Ravenna you did indeed say he should be expected to help out. Of course only after introducing a notion of him being there purely for burglary... I myself see the fourteen of them as more a team, where people help each other out of scrapes as and when the need arises. When they crossed the river, Bilbo spotted the boat, and helped Fili out by guiding his throwing of the rope. Teamwork! They were all in it together, and they helped each other out. Bilbo had a magical ring that made him ideally suited for certain things, so naturally he was often able to do things that the dwarves could not.

But as of yet you havent explain when we reach the point of his help being so much as to be 'undeserved'. You just allege that it is, but why? You talk about what could be expected, but this is irrelevant to what is or is not deserved. When Bilbo helps out, this is undeserved, but in your eyes if the dwarves help Bilbo this is only to be expected! I take a different view. They were all part of a team with a common goal, and in great danger. The dwarves deserved to be able to expect Bilbo to help out to the best of his abilities. And Bilbo did so!

You make Bilbo's realisation of his common purpose, and his commitment to a common goal seem bad! He might well realise his best idea is to help out, because he will have the best odds of survival if he does. That doesnt make his help undeserved!

Finally, on the question of when Bilbo realised that the reward was huge, who knows? But I was only responding to your view that insisted that it was not enough! That somehow, the vast wealth that he received was insufficient! Don't try now to say I am doing something wrong by proving you wrong!

Snaga

11-13-2003, 10:36 PM

Having got to one side all of the tit-for-tat stuff, I want to look at the Arkenstone question because its of considerable interest.

Ost-in-Edhil want us to conclude that Thorin's treatment of Bilbo at this point means that they didnt deserve his help.

In reply, the Periaur say that Bilbo wasnt helping the dwarves at this point, he had decided to help the Lake-Men. Thus he gave Bard the Arkenstone. So then, if he wasnt helping the dwarves the reaction of Thorin can hardly be taken as evidence that they didnt deserve his help.

I imagine that some people will want to think carefully about this proposition, so lets explore it fully.

Firstly, and it is somewhat of a diversion from the main argument, let us consider the rights and wrongs of Bilbo's action. We all know that it was well-intentioned: Bilbo was trying to break the dead-lock. We also know however that when Bilbo found the Arkenstone and took it for himself, he felt he was not totally in the right. Not At Home
"Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it - some time. They did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem and that trouble would yet come of it." Thorin had spoken of it with reverence, and it was somewhat deceitful to pocket it for himself.

Then, in an effort to break the deadlock he gives it to Bard. When questioned about whether it is his to give he says " 'It isn't exactly; but, well, I am willing to let it stand against all my claim' " - so an admission that he is at least on thin ice. He has taken something very dear to Thorin, and handed it over to Thorin's enemies.

Remember: the lake-men are with the elves, who come purely seeking gold that was never theirs. They then ally with the Lakemen, which is unfortunate for all concerned. The elves had imprisoned the dwarves and treated them very badly: Thorin had every right to be aggrieved when they besieged Erebor. So Thorin finds his former friend has taken his most prized possession and handed it over to people besieging his realm, allied with his former captors. His anger is understandable, even if it is not entirely wise.

Now, Ost-in-Edhil wish to use this anger, and the insults that Thorin hurls to say that this means that Bilbo's help is no longer deserved. This raises an interesting question. At what point does the judgement of whether help is deserved get made?

In this instance, Ost-in-Edhil want to make the judgement from the point of view of someone looking at the time that Thorin is enraged with Bilbo.

For Bilbo, he of course doesnt get to wait: he has to decide at the point at which he decides to help. All the way along he has decided that the dwarves deserve help, and at each point until the stand-off with the Lakemen and the Elves this continues. And his help has achieved a lot of good: they have made it to Erebor, and the dragon has been slain.

Then when Thorin wants to withhold payment from the Lakemen because of their association with the elves, Bilbo decides not to help any longer. At this point they no longer deserve help, he decides.

But is there any reason to suppose he regrets his previous help? Not really. Of course he thinks that Thorin is being very unreasonable, but he does not at any time wish that he hadnt helped them.

Moreover, is this actually the right stand-point to exercise hindsight from? Obviously not! If you are going to judge whether Bilbo's help was really deserved, and do so with hindsight, you have to look from when ALL the consequences were played out. So what happens next?

Thorin realises his error and he and Bilbo settle their differences, before Thorin dies. So Thorin's anger is forgiven, and Bilbo says to him: ' "This is a bitter adventure, if it must end so; and not a mountain of gold can amend it. Yet I am glad that I have shared in your perils - that has been more than any Baggins deserves." ' Far from any expression of regret at his help, he is deeply glad that he did.

And with good reason! Bilbo didn't realise fully at the start of his adventure what becomes clear at the end of the War of the Ring.The Quest of Erebor
When you think of the great battle of Pelennor, do not forget the battle of Dale. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Erebor! There might have been no Queen in Gondor. We might only hope now to return from the victory here from ruin and ash. But that has been averted - because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring not far from Bree. This is what hindsight properly exercised tells us!

So, if we want to consider the Arkenstone, we must consider everything that happened after Bilbo stopped helping the dwarves. And from that position of hindsight, we see the dubious actions and harsh words are forgiven on both sides, and their cause was proven far more deserving than any (save Gandalf) could have guessed.:)

Arvedui

11-14-2003, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Just a few points i'd like to bring up; the small matter of the Mithril coat; Bilbo recieved something that was most likely more than the 14th he was promised. This Mithril coat was in total value more of the entire Shire and all things within it. This by far compensated for all that he did for the Dwarves, and even when he was discovered for what he did with the Arkenstone, he got to keep the coat, and ontop of that, he was still given the 14th he was promised, which was traded for the Arkenstone AND he was given the chests of gold and silver by Dain. So how then can the dwarves not deserve all that Bilbo did for them? He was given what was more like 1/10th of (by my reconing) of the total gold. He also earnt the friendship and respect of the Dwarves of Erebor AND the gold from the Trolls lair, although he did give that up (as he thought it wasnt rightly his because it came from thieves), he still had it and I haven't read anywhere that the Dwarves saw any of it. You might want to think that the Mithril-coat was worth so much that he ended up with a lot more than his fourteenth share, but look at the facts:"Mr. Baggins!" he (Thorin) cried. "Here is the first payment of your reward! Cast off your old coat and put on this!"
With that he put on Bilbo a small coat of mail, wrought for some young elf-prince long ago. It was of silvered steel and ornamented with pearls, and with it went a belt of pearls and crystals.
If the quote doesn't sound familiar, it might be because it is from the 1937 edition of The Hobbit.

You are also stating that Bilbo got the friendship from the Dwarves. That is also a bit strange, since so far the Periaur have been fighting the option that it was the Dwarves that deserved Bilbo's friendship, and not the other way around.

Arvedui

11-14-2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by snaga1
Oh by the way... are you ever going to address the question of it being obviously a deserving cause to try to regain your home from a dragon?
Thanks, I had forgotten that.;)
The Dwarves thought they had a good cause for retaking their home from Smaug. I would have thought the same.
But what you are doing here, is twisting the situation to suit your means.
The question is once again if the Dwarves deserved Bilbo.

It was Gandalf that 'gave' Bilbo to Thorin & co. And he did that because he had other motives than the Dwarves had!
Their original plan was quite different from what they ended up with, as we have already proven.
Was that a joke? Of course it was. I forgot to add the ;)
Next, you make mention of him finding the key hole. Yes he did. And that was undeserved for what reason? Did you have a point here? Of course, all matter to do with getting inside the mountain were his area, as the appointed burglar. Surely the legalistic minds of Ost-in-Edhil don't have some clause in the contract which excludes the finding of key-holes?!
You are (deliberately?) misunderstanding me.
My point was to list what exactly Bilbo did for the dwarves. Yes, this waswhat he was hired for. But if we are to debate if the Dwarves deserved ALL that Bilbo did for them, then w should at least debate ALL, and not only what suits the Periaur.;)

Perhaps you are unable to see that you contradict yourself. I think that others will see clearly what you cannot.

Snaga

11-14-2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Arvedui
You are also stating that Bilbo got the friendship from the Dwarves. That is also a bit strange, since so far the Periaur have been fighting the option that it was the Dwarves that deserved Bilbo's friendship, and not the other way around. No we are not. Are you trying to put words into our mouths, with no argument attached, but just the implication that we got something wrong? That's hardly helpful to anyone.:(

Snaga

11-14-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Arvedui
The Dwarves thought they had a good cause for retaking their home from Smaug. I would have thought the same.
But what you are doing here, is twisting the situation to suit your means.
The question is once again if the Dwarves deserved Bilbo.

It was Gandalf that 'gave' Bilbo to Thorin & co. And he did that because he had other motives than the Dwarves had!
Their original plan was quite different from what they ended up with, as we have already proven. And your point is what exactly? How the dwarves originally thought they might try to pursue their cause before getting Gandalf's advice is absolutely irrelevant to whether their cause was deserving or not. Having taken Gandalf's advice, they asked Bilbo. Bilbo recognised the cause was deserving of his help, and decided to come along. Very simple really. I'm sure you understand really, Arvedui.:)

Originally posted by Arvedui
[B]You are (deliberately?) misunderstanding me.
My point was to list what exactly Bilbo did for the dwarves. Yes, this waswhat he was hired for. But if we are to debate if the Dwarves deserved ALL that Bilbo did for them, then w should at least debate ALL, and not only what suits the Periaur.;) No, I wasnt deliberately misunderstanding you. You know... we orcs sometimes get muddled. But in any case you can name any and every instance of help that Bilbo gave, and I would gladly say the dwarves deserved his help. Bilbo joined their team, was being well rewarded, and they all chipped into the cause, just as you would expect. The dwarves deserved to be able trust that he would help as often as he could, so there really aren't any instances of help that don't suit the Periaur position.:)

*sigh* It seems a little unkind of you to allege that I am contradicting myself, but refuse to explain it clearly. Try as I might, I really can't see. I think perhaps where we differ is that I am happy with the notion that Bilbo went with the dwarves for a variety of reasons. (1) He recognised their cause was deserving. (2) He wanted to prove himself. And (3) while we're listing them, he wanted to see the world, and have adventures. Just because he had more than one motive, doesnt mean that I am contradicting myself! It means that I, like Bilbo, am able to weigh the scepticism about a hobbits ability to help, against the merit of their cause. Their scepticism is understandable, and Bilbo doesnt hold it against them but decides he will prove himself, and, as I have said repeatedly, that was his decision to make. You may say that it meritted Bilbo refusing to help, but that's not what Bilbo thought!

Gothmog

11-15-2003, 06:16 PM

Did Thorin's company deserve all that Bilbo did for them?

First of all we must look at what is meant by "Deserve"

deserve v. to be worthy of or entitled to (a thing) because of actions or qualities.

Now let us take a look once more at the points first raised by Snaga.Erebor was their's by right. They had every justification in seeking to regain it. This is obviously true and a matter for the Dwarves to deal with. They did not Deserve the help of others, though others could quite rightly Give such help as they chose.
The defeat of Smaug would remove an evil from Middle Earth, and a threat hanging over many people. While this is a valid argument for the removal of Smaug, it was not in the intent of the Dwarves but that of Gandalf. Now Gandalf Was Deserving of any help that he could get in his work but that is a different question to the one we are discussing here.
If the cause is good, then they deserved any support and assistance that Bilbo is prepared to give them. The cause of the Dwarves is good to and for Dwarves. They were not interested in anything outside of their concerns. In fact they would have accepted the removal of the treasure to another location and left Smaug there. After all, why accept the use of a "Burglar" if they were determined to get rid of the Dragon!Which leads me to my second point. They deserved his help because they were prepared to pay him well, and treat him fairly and professionally. A fourteenth share of the treasure is a very considerable sum, and so Bilbo stands to do very well from the quest. They deserved the help that he had agreed to give that is the gaining access to and removal of, the treasure of the Lonely Mountain. All other help must be looked at in a different light.And thirdly, Bilbo's willingness to help shows he felt they were deserving of help. And as the help is his to give, who has the right to say they didnt deserve it. And just how willingly was this help given? Let us look at this from the beginning.

The first mention of the AdventureChapter 1: An Unexpected Party
‘Very pretty!’ said Gandalf. ‘But I have no time to blow smoke-rings this morning. I am looking for someone to share in an adventure that I am arranging, and it’s very difficult to find Anyone.’
‘I should think so - in these parts! We are plain quiet folk and I have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can’t think what anybody sees in them,’ said our Mr Baggins,
Then‘Good morning!’ he said at last. ‘We don’t want any adventures here, thank you! You might try over The Hill or across The Water.’ By this he meant that the conversation was at an end. And again. ‘Yes, you have! Twice now. My pardon. I give it you. In fact I will go so far as to send you to this adventure. Very amusing for me, very good for you - and profitable too, very likely, if you ever get over it.’
‘Sorry! I don’t want any adventures, thank you. Not today. Good morning!
So right from the start he was not interested and had to be pushed into even listening to the Dwarves.

So how did he feel when the Dwarves were in his nice little Hobbit Hole?Gandalf sat at the head of the party with the thirteen dwarves all round: and Bilbo sat on a stool at the fireside, nibbling at a biscuit (his appetite was quite taken away), and trying to look as if this was all perfectly ordinary and not in the least an adventure. So then, when did this feeling turn from confusion and worry to a determination to give all possible aid to a just and righteous cause and why did this change of heart happen? ‘Now for some music!’ said Thorin. ‘Bring out the instruments!’
Kili and Fili rushed for their bags and brought back little fiddles; Dori, Nori, and Ori brought out flutes from somewhere inside their coats; Bombur produced a drum from the hall; Bifur and Bofur went out too, and came back with clarinets that they had left among the walking sticks. Dwalin and Balin said: ‘Excuse me, I left mine in the porch!’ ‘Just bring mine in with you!’ said Thorin. They came back with viols as big as themselves, and with Thorin’s harp wrapped in a green cloth. It was a beautiful golden harp, and when Thorin struck it the music began all at once, so sudden and sweet that Bilbo forgot everything else, and was swept away into dark lands under strange moons, far over The Water and very far from his hobbit-hole under The Hill.
Here is the first hint of a change of heart. But nothing about if the cause was just.As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and a jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves. Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking stick. He looked out of the window. The stars were out in a dark sky above the trees. He thought of the jewels of the dwarves shining in dark caverns. Nothing here that shows Bilbo thinking the cause to be righteous. In fact it talks about the desire of the hearts of the dwarves as being "A fierce and jealous love" not really the type of feelings to generate the thought that the dwarves deserve all help possible. But then again Bilbo has not been told about the cause yet

So let us look at just when Bilbo makes his decision. The Dwarves had been talking about him and he overheard their conversation. This caused him to make a choice that even he was not really happy with.As for little fellow bobbing on the mat it almost made him really fierce. Many a time afterwards the Baggins part regretted what he did now, and he said to himself: ‘Bilbo, you a fool; you walked right in and put your foot in it.’ And what was this choice? ‘Pardon me,’ he said, ‘if I have overheard words that you were saying. I don’t pretend to understand what you are talking about, or your reference to burglars, but think I am right in believing’ (this is what he called being on his dignity) ‘that you think I am no good. I will show you. I have no signs on my door - it was painted a week ago -, and I am quite sure you have come to the wrong house. As soon as I saw your funny faces on the doorstep, I had my doubts. But treat it as the right one. Tell me what you want done, and I will try it,
The Dwarves told him that they were looking for a Burglar and that Gandalf had told them one lived here.

What did the dwarves expect of Bilbo? Thorin himself answers this question. ‘Indeed I will,’ said Thorin, and he fastened it upon a fine chain that hung about his neck and under his jacket. ‘Now things begin to look more hopeful. This news alters them much for the better. So far we have had no clear idea what to do. We thought of going East, as quiet and careful as we could, as far as the Long Lake. After that the trouble would begin -´
‘A long time before that, if I know anything about the roads East,’ interrupted Gandalf.
‘We might go from there up along the River Running,’ went on Thorin taking no notice, ‘and so to the ruins of Dale - the old town in the valley there, under the shadow of the Mountain. But we none of us liked the idea of the Front Gate. The river runs right out of it through the great cliff at the South of the Mountain, and out of it comes the dragon too - far too often, unless he has changed his habits.’
Thorin was quite sure that any skills Bilbo may have would not be needed until they got to the Long Lake. So as far a Thorin was concerned Bilbo was being hired only to burgle the treasure nothing more, nothing less. If you have any doubts about this, once more Thorin himself saysChapter 12: Inside Information
'Now is the time for our esteemed Mr Baggins, who has proved himself a good companion on our long road, an a hobbit full of courage and resource far exceeding his size, and if I may say so possessed of good luck far exceeding the usual allowance - now is the time for him to perform the service for which he was included in out Company; now is the time for him to earn his Reward.'
But we still have the question of Bilbo going along because he "felt they were deserving of help". Bilbo had already agreed to go on the adventure (though reluctantly) yet it is here that we have.Chapter 1: An Unexpected Party
‘First I should like to know a bit more about things,’ said he, feeling all confused and a bit shaky inside, but so far still Tookishly determined to go on with things. ‘I mean about the gold and the dragon, and all that, and how it got there, and who it belongs to, and so on and further.’
Now at last after agreeing to go he asks and is told about the matters that the Periaur claim was the reasons behind his decision. But when we look at his reactions after being given the answers to his questions it seems that he was not particularly willing to help.

To be continued.

Gothmog

11-15-2003, 06:29 PM

Chapter 1: An Unexpected Party
‘Well, I should say that you ought to go East and have a look round[/B[. After all there is the Side-door, and dragons must sleep sometimes, I suppose. If you sit on the doorstep long enough. I daresay [B]you will think of something. And well, don’t you know, I think we have talked long enough for one night, if you see what I mean. What about bed, and an early start, and all that? I will give you a good breakfast before you go.’
‘Before we go, I suppose you mean,’ said Thorin. ‘Aren’t you the burglar? And isn’t sitting on the doorstep your job, not to speak of getting inside the door? But I agree about bed and breakfast. I like six eggs with my ham, when starting on a journey; fried not poached, and mind you don’t break ’em.’
At this point he was talking of what the dwarves should do with no intention of going there himself. Indeed the next thoughts of Bilbo are very clear on this.One thing he did make his mind up about was not to bother to get up very early and cook everybody else’s wretched breakfast. The Tookishness was wearing off, and he was not now quite so sure that he was going on any journey in the morning. So he was only certain of one thing and that was not the journey. So far as that goes the following morning when he awoke to find the dwarves have left Chapter 2: Roast Mutton
Up jumped Bilbo, and putting on his dressing-gown went into the dining-room. There he saw nobody, but all the signs of a large and hurried breakfast. There was a fearful mess in the room, and piles of unwashed crocks in the kitchen. Nearly every pot and pan he possessed seemed to have been used. The washing-up was so dismally real that Bilbo was forced to believe the party of the night before had not been part of his bad dreams, as he had rather hoped. Indeed he was really relieved after to think that they had all gone without him, and without bothering to wake him up (‘but with never a thank-you’ he thought); and yet in a way he could not help feeling just a trifle disappointed. The feeling surprised him.
So Bilbo felt relieved that he had been left behind. He was in fact surprised to find that he was "Just a trifle disappointed" at this. I would not say that this is the reaction to one that had decided to go willingly on such a quest but rather that of one who felt that he had been spared the consequences of a very foolish decision.

So there is nothing at the beginning that says the Dwarves deserved anything else from Bilbo than for him to gain entry to where the treasure was and to deal with the removal of that treasure. We do know that during the journey there was much help given and the most important help was given by Bilbo to the Dwarves. However, trying to sort out each of these occasions separately and arguing about them one at a time is somewhat time consuming. So to get the overall picture we need to look at what this came to by the end.

After Thorin says that it is time for Bilbo to "Earn his reward" Bilbo answers thusChapter 12: Inside Information
'If you mean you think it is my job to go into the secret passage first, O Thorin Thrain's son Oakenshield, may your beard grow ever longer,' he said crossly, 'say so at once and have done! I might refuse. I have got you out of two messes already, which were hardly in the original bargain, so that I am, I think, already owed some reward. But "third time pays for all" as my father used to say, and somehow I don't think I shall refuse. Perhaps I have begun to trust my luck more than I used to in the old days' - he meant last spring before he left his own house, but it seemed centuries ago - 'but anyway I think I will go and have a peep at once and get it over. Now who is coming with me?'
So it seems that Bilbo hardly thought that the Dwarves Deserved All that he did for them even at this point. We also find in the same chapter this comment.The most that can be said for the dwarves is this: they intended to pay Bilbo really handsomely for his services; they had brought him to do a nasty job for them, and they did not mind the poor little fellow doing it if he would; but they would all have done their best to get him out of trouble, if he got into it, as they did in the case of the trolls at the beginning of their adventures before they had any particular reasons for being grateful to him. There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much. If this is the most that can be said about the dwarves then it is hardly the basis for claiming that they deserved so much from a Hobbit that a) they did not want in the first place and had to be bullied into taking and b) was only there because he had been bullied and tricked into going.

The Periaur first brought up the matter of the Arkenstone and claimed that at this point Bilbo decides that Thorin no longer deserves his help. However, let us look a little closer at what happened after the death of Smaug.

First of all Thorin is given some good advice by the Raven Roäc son of CarcChapter 15: The Gathering of the Clouds
'So much for joy, Thorin Oakenshield. You may go back to your halls in safety; all the treasure is yours - for the moment. But many are gathering hither beside the birds. The news of the death of the guardian has already gone far and wide, and the legend of the wealth of Thror has not lost in the telling during many years; many are eager for a share of the spoil. Already a host of the elves is on the way, and carrion birds are with them hoping for battle and slaughter. By the lake men murmur that their sorrows are due to the dwarves; for they are homeless and many have died, and Smaug has destroyed their town. They too think to find amends from your treasure, whether you are alive or dead.
'Your own wisdom must decide your course; but thirteen is small remnant of the great folk of Durin that once dwelt here, you will not trust the Master of the lake-men, but rather him that shot the dragon with his bow. Bard is he, of the race of Dale, of the line of Girion; he is a grim man but true. We would see peace once more among dwarves and men and elves after the long desolation; but it may cost you dear in gold. I have spoken.'
Thorin's answer to this?Then Thorin burst forth in anger: 'Our thanks, Roäc Carc's son. You and your people shall not be forgotten. But none of our gold shall thieves take or the violent carry off while we are alive. If you would earn our thanks still more, bring us news of any that draw near. Also I would beg of you, if any of you are still young and strong of wing, that you would send messengers to our kin in the mountains of the North, both west from here and east, and tell them of our plight. But go specially to my cousin Dain in the Iron Hills, for he has many people well-armed, and dwells nearest to this place. Bid him hasten!'
He decides that he would rather fight than talk to Bard and asks that more of his people be summoned to aid him in this.

The Dwarves then fortify the entrance to the Lonely Mountain and Bilbo could see that they would not willingly parley with the men of Lake Town, not even Bard. The Dwarves sang to lift up the spirits of Thorin.This song appeared to please Thorin, and he smiled again and grew merry; and he began reckoning the distance to the Iron Hills and how long it would be before Dain could reach the Lonely Mountain, if he had set out as soon as the message reached him. But Bilbo's heart fell, both at the song and the talk: they sounded much too warlike. The actions of the Dwarves at this time showed Bilbo that despite all that they had been through Thorin and Co. still did not deserve all that he had done for them, there were no actions or qualities to cause the dwarves to be worthy of such help. Therefore he decided to allow Bard to use the greed of Thorin for the Arkenstone to gain from him that which Thorin should have given willingly.

So basically we have the situation where the Dwarves did not deserve in the beginning any help from Bilbo beyond what he was employed for, this is acknowledged by Thorin at that time and when they get to the secret door. Then despite all that had been done by Bilbo during the journey he finds that at the end they were not deserving of all that he had done.

Therefore we come to the conclusion that while Bilbo was well within his rights to give such help as he chose throughout the quest, at no time did he decide that the Dwarves deserved this help.

So since there is no basis either in fact or in Bilbo's view for the dwarves to deserve all that Bilbo did for them then the answer is simple. They did not deserve it.

Snaga

11-16-2003, 01:52 AM

A worthy attempt, but these arguments have more holes than Bilbo's best sieve.

(1) Did the dwarves' cause merit help?

Firstly, you dismiss the idea that the dwarves deserved any help with their cause. Essentially your argument is that because the dwarves are the main beneficiaries, they do not deserve any help. Previously, Ravenna argued that the dwarves were selfish. Now you wish to argue that Bilbo should have been!

I have a straightforward way of looking at things: good causes deserve help. The dwarves had a good cause, so they deserved all the help they got. Under the definition that you give, unattributed, is the notion that deserve = 'to be worthy'. Yes: this was a worthy cause.:)

The cause of the Dwarves is good to and for Dwarves.Yes. But also for the Lakemen. Also for anyone not in the cause of evil. Bilbo knew that the cause was good: he knew dragons are evil. And he had the recommendation of Gandalf. Gandalf would not have been helping the cause of evil, would he?

In fact they would have accepted the removal of the treasure to another location and left Smaug there. After all, why accept the use of a "Burglar" if they were determined to get rid of the Dragon! This IS an interesting point. Firstly let us examine how the ideas of the dwarves evolved through Gandalf's influence:

Gandalf meets Thorin, who tells him of his preoccupation with Erebor and Smaug.The Quest of Erebor - Unfinished Tales
'I [Gandalf] promised to help him if I could. I was as eager as he was to see the end of Smaug, but Thorin was all for plans of battle and war, as if he were really King Thorin the Second, and I could see no hope in that. Note: not more eager, or indeed less eager, but AS eager. Thorin wanted to kill Smaug, and Gandalf agreed. Why?

The Quest of Erebor - Unfinished Tales
To resist any force that Sauron might take to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them a desolation and a dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use to terrible effect. So Thorin wants to see the end of Smaug: that is unambiguous. Now all Gandalf's thoughts and policies were turned against Smaug, but he is circumspect. In persuading Thorin to take Bilbo, he decides to recommend 'professional stealth'.

The Quest of Erebore - Unfinished Tales
"Your ideas are those of a king, Thorin Oakenshield; but your kingdom is gone. If it is to be restored, which I doubt, then it must be from small beginnings. Far away here, I wonder if you fully realize the strength of a great DragonSo clearly they are plotting the downfall of Smaug, and the restoration of Erebor. And he goes onto explain that the open war plan would attract the Necromancer to assist the dragon, and that Smaug will check every day for the scent of dwarves, whereas he won't know the smell of a hobbit.

As many will know, it is Balin that gets carried away with the idea that stealth = treasure-seeker = burglar, and this idea about Bilbo's role becomes fixed in their mind. But despite the fact Gandalf is so adamant that he is essential, Thorin is still unconvinced of a course that involves burglary, or Bilbo. In the end, it is only when Gandalf appeals to Thorin to treat Bilbo well and he 'shall have my friendship to the end of your days' that Thorin relents:The Quest of Erebor
'I said that without hope of persuading him; but I could have said nothing better. Dwarves understand devotion to friends and gratitude to those that help them. "Very well," Thorin said at last after a silence. "He shall set out with my company, if he dares (which I doubt). If you insist on burdening me with him, you must come too and look after your darling." So where does that leave Thorin's thinking? The one and only statement about their intent is this:An Unexpected Party
"But we have never forgotten our stolen treasure. And even now, when I will allow we have a good bit laid by and are not so badly off" - here Thorin stroked the gold chain around his neck - "we still mean to get it back, and to bring our curses home to Smaug - if we can" So it seems that Thorin would still much prefer to tackle Smaug. All that has really happened is that Gandalf has persuaded him to take 'a burglar' against his better judgement, and made him realise that (if he didnt before) that defeating the dragon would not be easy. At the most you can say he thinks 'burgling' some heirloom might be better than nothing, if Smaug cannot be destroyed.

And so you are left with a picture of a dispossessed dwarf-lord, who is driven to try to regain the realm of his fore-fathers, and is willing to risk his life and face a mighty dragon, but realises that this quest may be beyond him. So I ask: what is there in this which is undeserving?

Now of course, the idea of OiE is that the dwarves trying to regain their treasure is unworthy. But what is so wrong about trying to regain possessions that were stolen from you? Don't expect any sympathy from Officer Gothmog if you get robbed!;)

(2) Did Bilbo help willingly?

Gothmog argues he did not. He wants to believe Bilbo was unwilling, that he was "bullied and tricked". But this is dishonest, and even Gothmog says: "Bilbo had already agreed to go on the adventure (though reluctantly)" and he was "a trifle disappointed" when he thought he was left behind. He is hardly bullied or tricked! Yes, he is famously reluctant at first, but to argue as Gothmog does, that he is bullied is nonsense. If he is bullied against his will, why does he runRoast Mutton
as fast as his furry feet could carry him down the lane, past the great Mill, across The Water, and then on for a mile or more.If he was so unwilling, he would not have been so much in a hurry to go!
(3) Bilbo's motives
There is a lot in Gothmog's posts about how Bilbo makes his decision, which is itself amusing since supposedly he was being bullied, and came unwillingly! But Gothmog's thesis is this: that because Bilbo decides to go before knowing how deserving their cause is, this somehow means it is not deserving. A contorted logic, to the say the least!
The suggestion is Bilbo decides to go before hearing whether the cause is a good one or not, and that after Thorin goes into details of the mission, what it might involve and so forth, Bilbo is less willing to help. This is not really accurate. Yes, he begins to dream for adventure, and yes he wants to proved himself, but is this enough? No!

An Unexpected Party
"First I would like to know a bit more about things," said he [Bilbo], feeling all confused and a bit shaky, but so far still Tookishly determined to go on with things. "I mean about the gold and the dragon, and all that, and how it got there, and who it belongs to, and so on and further." Yes he has decided that perhaps his youthful dream of an adventure is one he would like to follow, but he is still interested in knowing the rights and wrongs of the situation.

When he has heard more, what is the result? Is it that he feels the cause is not worthwhile? Of course not! His 'Tookishness' is wearing off! Isn't that the whole thing about Bilbo, the struggle between his timid homely Baggins side, and his more restless, adventurous Tookish side? I hate repeating myself but: I think perhaps where we differ is that I am happy with the notion that Bilbo went with the dwarves for a variety of reasons. (1) He recognised their cause was deserving. (2) He wanted to prove himself. And (3) while we're listing them, he wanted to see the world, and have adventures.So Bilbo knew the cause was good. Enough!

Next onto the selective use of hindsight, OiE's new trick!:)

Snaga

11-16-2003, 01:58 AM

(4) Hindsight Revisited!
They deserved the help that he had agreed to give that is the gaining access to and removal of, the treasure of the Lonely Mountain. All other help must be looked at in a different light.
Well that seems fair enough!;) But after a long long post, in which quote follows quote, the conclusion we come to is
So there is nothing at the beginning that says the Dwarves deserved anything else from Bilbo than for him to gain entry to where the treasure was and to deal with the removal of that treasure. We do know that during the journey there was much help given and the most important help was given by Bilbo to the Dwarves. However, trying to sort out each of these occasions separately and arguing about them one at a time is somewhat time consuming.
So it would take too long? Or could it be that that is exactly what Ravenna and Gothmog have tried to do, and got precisely nowhere?;)

So instead Gothmog brings out a quote in which Bilbo snaps at Thorin, who was in the middle of one of his florid speeches. Inside Information
You are familiar with Thorin's style on important occasions, so I will not give you any more of it, though he went on a good deal longer than this. Certainly it was an important occasion, but Bilbo felt impatient. By now he was familiar with what Thorin too, and he knew what he was driving at. So really of course, Bilbo's temperamental outburst is hardly to be taken too seriously. In any case, he doesn't ever say they didnt deserve his help, however much Gothmog would like you to think so. All he says his that he thinks his previous actions merit some reward. So what?

Then he moves onto another quote, apparently demonstrating how unworthy the dwarves were but really it says nothing of the sort! The paragraph tells you "they intended to pay Bilbo really handsomely for his services" and "they would all have done their best to get him out of trouble, if he got into it, as they did in the case of the trolls at the beginning of their adventures before they had any particular reasons for being grateful to him." The point of the paragraph is nothing at all to do with not deserving help, and all to do with them not being "heroic". But the Periaur have aren't claiming heroism as a major reason why they were deserving, so this is a non-point.

The next fallacious argument is swift in following. The Periaur have shown that when Thorin refuses to help the Bardings, Bilbo decides to stop helping them, and when opportunity comes he tries to break the deadlock. It seems like a devious ploy to provide a whole number of quotes that demonstrate exactly this point, and then make this completely illogical conclusion:The actions of the Dwarves at this time showed Bilbo that despite all that they had been through Thorin and Co. still did not deserve all that he had done for them, there were no actions or qualities to cause the dwarves to be worthy of such help. Of course, their actions showed nothing of the sort! Bilbo never regretted the help that he gave to the dwarves, but he was distressed that they were not now dealing very nobly with the Bardings. So, since he had grown considerably since joining the quest, he had the confidence to break ranks with the dwarves and help the Bardings. After all, his agreement with the dwarves was fulfilled.

In any case this is again the selective use of hindsight. Ost-in-Edhil want to choose the most disadvantageous point to view the dwarves' actions from. Its tiresome to have to repeat myself but as I said before:Moreover, is this actually the right stand-point to exercise hindsight from? Obviously not! If you are going to judge whether Bilbo's help was really deserved, and do so with hindsight, you have to look from when ALL the consequences were played out. So what happens next?

Thorin realises his error and he and Bilbo settle their differences, before Thorin dies. So Thorin's anger is forgiven, and Bilbo says to him: ' "This is a bitter adventure, if it must end so; and not a mountain of gold can amend it. Yet I am glad that I have shared in your perils - that has been more than any Baggins deserves." ' Far from any expression of regret at his help, he is deeply glad that he did.I stand by those words: there is no sign of any regret from Bilbo. And why should there be? He has played a heroic part in a deserving cause.

Gothmog

11-17-2003, 01:06 PM

So really of course, Bilbo's temperamental outburst is hardly to be taken too seriously. In any case, he doesn't ever say they didnt deserve his help, however much Gothmog would like you to think so. All he says his that he thinks his previous actions merit some reward. So what? But the Periaur have based their argument on the "Fact" that Bilbo decided that the Dwarves deserved his help. This the Periaur have consistantly failed to show. My short post earlier ;) gave quotes about the beginning and the end of the quest that shows Bilbo at no point decided that the Dwarves were deserving of help other than that contracted for the entering of the Lonely Mountain and the recovery of the treasure. The rest of the aid he gave was due entirely to the need of the occasion and the basic goodness of Bilbo.
Of course, their actions showed nothing of the sort! Bilbo never regretted the help that he gave to the dwarves, but he was distressed that they were not now dealing very nobly with the Bardings. I did nto say that Bilbo ever showed regret. I stated that he realised that even now they still did not deserve all that he had done. The fact that he did these things was a testomony to Bilbo and not to the Dwarves. The fact that he felt no regret shows that he did not think about who deserved help but who needed it. It is the view of Ost-in-Edhil that the cause deserving of all the help it could get was that of Gandalf who wanted to remove Smaug for the good of all in Middle-earth. The Dwarves were not interested in the men of Dale or of the Long Lake. They only wanted to have revenge on Smaug for what he did to their people.
I stand by those words: there is no sign of any regret from Bilbo. And why should there be? He has played a heroic part in a deserving cause. Indeed, why should Bilbo have any regrets? He has had his adventure and took part in Gandalf's deserving cause. At the same time he helped the Dwarves to acheive their sefish aims that just happened to conincide with what Gandalf wanted.Gothmog argues he did not. He wants to believe Bilbo was unwilling, that he was "bullied and tricked". But this is dishonest, and even Gothmog says: "Bilbo had already agreed to go on the adventure (though reluctantly)" and he was "a trifle disappointed" when he thought he was left behind. He is hardly bullied or tricked! Yes, he is famously reluctant at first, but to argue as Gothmog does, that he is bullied is nonsense. If he is bullied against his will, why does he run Yes he was reluctant and had Gandalf not bullied and tricked him into agreeing and then the following day leaving Bag End then he would not have gone. How did Gandalf do this. Think back to the point that Bilbo left he Hobbit hole. What was the conversation between Gandalf and Bilbo?
"But" said Bilbo.
"No Time for that" Said Gandalf.
"But" said Bilbo.
"No time for that Either!" said Gandalf Sounds more like bullying than enthusiasm to me.

Legolam

11-17-2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Gothmog
But the Periaur have based their argument on the "Fact" that Bilbo decided that the Dwarves deserved his help No, no, no, you're missing so much of what we're trying to say. Actually, Snaga's very first post set out our thoughts on this subject, which I'll remind you of:

The first, and primary reason why Thorin's Company deserved his help was the same reason that they deserved Gandalf's help, Elrond's help... anyone's help. They deserved it because they cause was good ... If the cause is good, then they deserved any support and assistance that Bilbo is prepared to give them.

Which leads me to my second point. They deserved his help because they were prepared to pay him well, and treat him fairly and professionally. A fourteenth share of the treasure is a very considerable sum, and so Bilbo stands to do very well from the quest.

And thirdly, Bilbo's willingness to help shows he felt they were deserving of help. And as the help is his to give, who has the right to say they didnt deserve it.
So you think you've countered point 3 adequately. I'd like to ask you more about point 2 ie the fact that Bilbo was rewarded in excess of what the dwarves promised, as already described by my esteemed colleague, Thol:

Originally posted by Celebthol
Just a few points i'd like to bring up; the small matter of the Mithril coat; Bilbo recieved something that was most likely more than the 14th he was promised. This Mithril coat was in total value more of the entire Shire and all things within it. This by far compensated for all that he did for the Dwarves, and even when he was discovered for what he did with the Arkenstone, he got to keep the coat, and ontop of that, he was still given the 14th he was promised, which was traded for the Arkenstone AND he was given the chests of gold and silver by Dain. So how then can the dwarves not deserve all that Bilbo did for them? He was given what was more like 1/10th of (by my reconing) of the total gold. He also earnt the friendship and respect of the Dwarves of Erebor AND the gold from the Trolls lair, although he did give that up (as he thought it wasnt rightly his because it came from thieves), he still had it and I haven't read anywhere that the Dwarves saw any of it. The only argument that the oldsters (;) ) have come up with is from Arvedui:

"Mr. Baggins!" he (Thorin) cried. "Here is the first payment of your reward! Cast off your old coat and put on this!"
With that he put on Bilbo a small coat of mail, wrought for some young elf-prince long ago. It was of silvered steel and ornamented with pearls, and with it went a belt of pearls and crystals. I don't actually remember this from my version of the Hobbit - is this something from your 1937 edition? And what exactly does it prove? We all know that Bilbo's mithril coat (and it was definitely made of mithril, as evidenced by withstanding the cave-troll in LOTR) was something of fantastic value, worth more than the whole Shire (according to Gandalf).

I don't think we can discount this gift, as Gothmog has done, as just payment for what Bilbo was "contracted" to do. It was worth far more than that. Dwarves are, by their nature, fiercely loyal and honest. Thorin and his company recognised all the "extra" tasks that Bilbo had undertaken outside of his burglary and, although they were not as grateful as they could have been at the time (would you be ecstatic if you'd been cooped up in an elf prison then stuffed in a barrel overnight??!), they appreciated his efforts and rewarded him accordingly. Therefore, although harsh words were said at the time, the dwarves ultimately deserved ALL Bilbo's help because it was rewarded with material goods and friendship.

If you think about it, this is just the logical human response to help in a dangerous situation. If you're about to be eaten by giant spiders, you don't stick around to say your polite thank-yous and give gifts. No, you wait until you're safe and comfortable then give the rescuer what he rightly deserves.

Niniel

11-17-2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Gothmog
It is the view of Ost-in-Edhil that the cause deserving of all the help it could get was that of Gandalf who wanted to remove Smaug for the good of all in Middle-earth. The Dwarves were not interested in the men of Dale or of the Long Lake. They only wanted to have revenge on Smaug for what he did to their people.
Indeed, why should Bilbo have any regrets? He has had his adventure and took part in Gandalf's deserving cause. At the same time he helped the Dwarves to acheive their sefish aims that just happened to conincide with what Gandalf wanted.
We agree with you on this point. But it hardly seems possible to separate Gandalf's cause with the Dwarves' cause. If Bilbo had not helped the Dwarves by giving them all the help they needed, they would have failed. In which case both their goals and Gandalf's would not have been achieved. Gandalf says repeatedly, in the Quest for Erebor, that it was not chance that Bilbo and the Dwarves got together. He also emphasises that he foresees that without Bilbo's help the Dwarves will fail: 'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield!' I said. 'If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.'
And later Gimli asks him: 'But who wove the web? (...) Did you plan all this then, Gandalf? If not, why did you lead Thorin Oakenshield to such an unlikely door? To find the Ring and bring it far away into the West for hiding, and then to choose a Ringbearer- and to restore the Mountain kingdom as a mere deed by the way: weas not that your design?' Gandalf answers: In that far distant time I said to a small and frightened hobbit: Bilbo was meant to find the ring, and you were therefore meant to bear it. And I might have added: and I was meant to guide you both to those points.' If Bilbo had not helped the dwarves, they would never have fulfilled their quest, and Bilbo would in his turn not have gotten so far as to find the Ring without the Dwarves' help. And being able to help the Dwarves on several occasions, something which he would never have expected to be able to do, strengthened Bilbo's self-confidence, so that he was able to end the whole quest and carry the Ring until it was his time to give it away. By helping the Dwarves, he helped himself, and Gandalf and the whole of Middle-Earth.

Nóm

11-17-2003, 07:52 PM

Behold! Snooty old-timers and pop-culture loving Elberethians, the debate will end in approximately 24 hours. It will close on the 18th at 6:39 pm GMT.

Snaga

11-17-2003, 08:10 PM

Yes, certainly there is a grain of truth in what Gothmog says but it is not exactly right. Indeed Gandalf's cause was worthy, and as Niniel points out, his strategy was inextricably bound up with quest of the dwarves. And yet, even without the wider implications, to take back what was stolen by a dragon from the house of Durin is a worthy cause. To be deserving of support, it needs no further justification.

After all, let us not forget that the dwarves of Moria, lead by Durin's house were part of the Last Alliance. They had long had prosperous dealings with the Free folk of the northwest of Middle Earth, including hobbits. That the house of Durin grew strong again was in the interest of more than just dwarves.

Gothmog

11-18-2003, 12:01 PM

So them, let us look at the Dwarves plans for the destruction of Smaug and just how much help it deserved from others. Apart that is from the selfishness of it, which has already been shown.

Gandalf's views on their plans.
"I promised to help him if I could. I was as eager as he was to see the end of Smaug, but Thorin was all for plans of battle and war, as if he were really King Thorin the Second, and I could see no hope in that." and also"So it was that the Quest of Erebor set out. I don not suppose that when it started Thorin had any real hope of destroying Smaug. There was no hope" from UT: The Quest of Erebor.

So the plans of the Dwarves were nothing more nor less than Suicide, for them and any that went with them. Not my idea of a worth cause that deserved any and all help. However, Gandalf changed that. It was Gandalf that turned this from a foolish waste of time into a worthy cause, and it was Gandalf's cause not that of the Dwarves.

As for Bilbo's willingness to go on such a quest we have Gandalf's own words to show just how willing he would be.
'There is one other thing,' I wen on; 'your must make all your plans and preparations beforehand. Get everything ready! Once persuaded he must have no time for second thoughts. You must go straight from the Shire, east on your quest.' And as we have seen such plans were needed or Bilbo would simply have stayed at home. He did not see that the cause of the Dwarves was so great that he willingly went with them. It was only the fact that Gandalf made sure that he did not have time to think about it that caused our Bilbo to join the Dwarves.

Legolam

11-18-2003, 12:20 PM

Gothmog, your team still isn't countering the point of Bilbo's reward. A deserving cause must both be looked at from the point of view of people BEFORE the action, and AFTER. And the fact remains that, especially if you consider the dwarves' actions AFTER Bilbo's help (ie his reward and their friendship), the dwarves deserved Bilbo's help.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say? OiE must prove that the dwarves didn't deserve Bilbo's help in the light of both what they did before his help, and what they did after. And I've seen no good argument to shake me from my belief, that the reward more than justified Bilbo's own inclination to help his friends the dwarves.

Niniel

11-18-2003, 12:39 PM

I'm not sure I understand what you mean Gothmog. You say that the Dwarves' cause was not worth help since it was suicide? I could agree with you if you said that it was not worth helping them if the Dwarves had tried to hang themselves, but going on their quest is quite something else. It might have been something which was very unlikely to succeed, but still the reasons why they did it were legitimate and deserved to be helped by Gandalf and Bilbo. That even Gandalf did not see much hope in it doesn't make it less worth helping, after all he did not see much hope in Frodo's attempt to destroy the Ring (he says so literally), and still he helped him with any means he could.

Gothmog

11-18-2003, 12:40 PM

Why should we counter the point of Bilbo's reward??? He was employed to do a job and gave more help than the Dwarves deserved because of the type of person he was. The Dwarves understood this and as they did not deserve the help they did the next best thing and paid for it. However, this does not show that the Dwarves deserved all the help that Bilbo gave, only that Bilbo very much deserved the extra payment because he gave such help without worrying about if it was deserved.

Legolam

11-18-2003, 12:57 PM

Oh, and just another side note on the suicide thing. What about the quest for the destruction of the ring? Was that not a completely suicidal trip? But no-one's arguing that it wasn't a deserving cause, because it actually worked.

In your words:
Not my idea of a worth cause that deserved any and all help Really?

Gothmog

11-18-2003, 01:03 PM

Apart from the fact that we are not discussing the quest to destroy the Ring. That quest was a different type of problem. There was no other option open for that.

The Quest of Erebor however, did have another option. The Dwarves came up with Suicide and Gandalf changed that to way that there was at least a chance both for the success of the Quest and the survival of those involved.

So. Yes Really. :)

Arvedui

11-18-2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Legolam
Gothmog, your team still isn't countering the point of Bilbo's reward. A deserving cause must both be looked at from the point of view of people BEFORE the action, and AFTER.
To tell the truth, we have commented on the reward earlier. One of the things Bilbo DID for the Dwarves, was not to keep his share.

Other than that, we have no intention of countering the reward he ended up with. After all, a reward was in his contract.

Arvedui

11-18-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Legolam

The only argument that the oldsters (;) ) have come up with is from Arvedui:
"Mr. Baggins!" he (Thorin) cried. "Here is the first payment of your reward! Cast off your old coat and put on this!"
With that he put on Bilbo a small coat of mail, wrought for some young elf-prince long ago. It was of silvered steel and ornamented with pearls, and with it went a belt of pearls and crystals.

I don't actually remember this from my version of the Hobbit - is this something from your 1937 edition? And what exactly does it prove? We all know that Bilbo's mithril coat (and it was definitely made of mithril, as evidenced by withstanding the cave-troll in LOTR) was something of fantastic value, worth more than the whole Shire (according to Gandalf).

I don't think we can discount this gift, as Gothmog has done, as just payment for what Bilbo was "contracted" to do. It was worth far more than that.
Just to clearify, as the Periaur have obviously missed the point. What is it that Thorin says? "Here is the first payment of your reward!" It is obvious from the way Thorin expresses himslerf, that he considers the mithril-coat to not cover the fourteenth share that Bilbo was promised.
And BTW, the only thing changed from the 1937-version to the 1966 version and thereafter, is the description of the coat. Mithril was not invented until Tolkien had written a large part of the LotR. So one can argue that the coat was of more worth after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, than it was before.

Anyway, the basic line is that even if the Periaur sees this as just payment, then Thorin does not. And it is our opinion that Thorin's thoughts carry more weight here, than does the thoughts of the Periaur.

Finally, snaga have asked for a clarification on why I think that he contradicts himself. (Sorry for not replying sooner, snaga, I have been without access to the Internet for the last days.)

IMO, he needs to argument that either
a) Bilbo came along because he had come to the conclution that the Dwarves deserved his help (which Gothmog have proven that he had not.), or
b) Bilbo came along because he wanted to prove himself. (which Gothmog have shown is obviously not the case neither).

The problem with the way the Periaur are using those arguments is that when we attack their thoughts of Bilbo's Operation Just Cause, then you argue that he wanted to prove himself.
If we argue against Bilbo wanting to prove himself, then you bring along Operation Just Cause again.

That is contradiction

Snaga

11-18-2003, 02:38 PM

Well arvedui, then clearly you are unable to grasp the concept for people having many motivations for taking actions. The seperation between Bilbo's desire to prove himself and his belief in the cause is a false distinction. I did not use one motivation to defend the other: I said that both were valid and evident in the test. I am not contradictory: you are being simplistic.

What this amounts to is that the Periaur assert that Bilbo went willingly, but you assert that he was bullied into the decision. To me that is an amazing assertion. Gandalf, the wisest of the Istari, who disavows the power to dominate others, but tries to rally the good-hearted people of the world against the Enemy, is transformed by OiE into a bully that terrorises hobbits onto dangerous quests!

Gothmog quotes Gandalf hurrying Bilbo out of the door. Why did he do that? Because Bilbo was late! Of course, yes, he didn't want Bilbo to change his mind and back out. But even the quote you gave earlier says "once persuaded"... not "once you have bullied him into agreeing" or "once forced to sign in blood".

Next arvedui wants to raise the obscurantist issue of mithril, its origin, the value of the shirt, which edition of the Hobbit to read etc. I must say it is strange to quote from the 1937 edition, unless you are just rather proud of having a copy! JRRT updated the story, and so this version is the only one that is relevant. But none of this is pertinent besides a simple fact that the dwarves offered to pay Bilbo handsomely, and in fact did so. They treated him honourably.

Yet again you pretend that Bilbo did not take his full share as a favour to the dwarves. This is not true. He did so for practical reasons: I'll produce the quote when I return home and have the book to hand. But I wish you would stop inventing. You're not screen-writing for Peter Jackson by any chance?;)

Once Gandalf and Thorin had discussed the plan, Thorin modified his approach. This doesnt make their cause undeserving, Gothmog. In any case, Bilbo was agreeing to the modified plan, not the original (so-called suicide) one!

But if we want to consider a distinction between the two plans, how did Gandalf's plan seem more hopeful? We know Gandalf was convinced that Smaug must be dealt with: but nowhere does his revised plan present any convincing means for this to happen. The errand was still a near impossible task; but Gandalf knew it still deserved support, as did Elrond, as did Bilbo. As does anyone that realises regaining your home and your possession from a dragon is a worthy cause. As does anyone but OiE!

Gothmog tells us that:Bilbo very much deserved the extra payment because he gave such help without worrying about if it was deserved. Indeed he did not worry. That's because the fact that the cause was good was beyond dispute. Would he have been so selfless if he was a victim of their bullying?! Of course not! Have OiE found anything that tells us that Bilbo ever doubted the justice of the quest? No! Have they ever found anything that shows that Bilbo felt he was a victim of bullying? No! What we actually have is the irrefutable statement that Bilbo was proud at helping Thorin and the dwarves succeed.:)

Snaga

11-18-2003, 06:37 PM

[The Return Journey
To Bilbo he [Dain] said: "This treasure is as much your as it is mine; though old agreements cannot stand, since so many have a claim in its winning and defence. Yet even though you were willing to lay aside all your claim [so that Bard could be paid for the Arkenstone], I would wish that the words of Thorin, of which he repented, should not prove true: that we should give you little. I would reward you most richly of all."

"Very kind of you," said Bilbo. "But really it is a relief to me. How on earth should I have got all that treasure home without war and murder along the way, I don't know. And I don't know what I should have done with it when I got home. I am sure it is better in your hands."

In the end he would only take two small chests, one filled with silver, and the other with gold, such as one strong pony could carry. "That will be quite as much as I can manage," said he.

There: that annuls the theory that Bilbo gave his treasure to the dwarves as a favour to them. Purely a practical decision, and a realisation that the reward he was being offered was far higher than he could ever need.

Snaga

11-18-2003, 07:40 PM

The Periaur have argued three major points in demonstrating why the dwarves deserved Bilbo's help. Despite a good attempt to knock holes in or at least sow confusion around these points, they all still stand.

What were these points:

(1) That the cause of the dwarves was a worthy cause.

- Erebor and its treasure was STOLEN from the dwarves, and their kin MURDERED. It was theirs by right. In seeking to end an injustice, they deserved any help offered, whether from Elrond, Gandalf or Bilbo.
- The removing of the dragon was a clear benefit to all good peoples of the North.
- We have shown, that contrary to the claims of OiE, that Bilbo made sure that it was a worthy cause before he went. He wanted to know the history of the dragon, the treasure etc.! His cautious Baggins side was by no means overwhelmed by his Tookish side!:)

Although OiE have shown that the plan of the dwarves changed to a more stealthy approach, they have not removed the fact that the dwarves still preferred an outcome that ended Smaug, even if they weren't sure how this might be accomplished. But even if they had failed to slay the dragon, the attempt would be worthy.

(2) That the dwarves intended to pay Bilbo "handsomely" (in Tolkien's words) for his help, and in fact did so.

- The reward was not a huge motivator for Bilbo, but was certainly fair, and showed they were treating him well.
- Even at the end, they tried to pay Bilbo more richly than anyone else! This shows not only were they scrupulous in contractual matters, but recognised his greater than expected part. The dwarves treated Bilbo fairly at the start, and very honourably at the end.

(3) Bilbo's help was for him to give to whomsoever he wished. He judged that they deserved it, so the Periaur support his right to make that choice.

- This is important, because it counteracts the theory that the dwarves were too rude. If Bilbo wasnt so offended as to stop helping the dwarves, why should anyone else think this? What is too rude is a subjective judgement, and Bilbo judged that it did not apply. Its hardly surprising. For the most part the 'rudeness' is exaggerated, or is understandable.

- The suggestion that he was coerced into coming is grossly unfair. Gandalf may have hurried him out of the door when he was late but he did not force him to do something against his will, and it is completely unthinkable that Gandalf would be party to such a plan.
- Bilbo at no time expresses the opinion that he has been bullied. He sometimes wonders what he has let himself in for, but that is not the same as being forced to do something against his will.
- His desire to go is evident from the fact he runs for more than a mile to make sure he doesn't get left behind! (I love that bit!:D )

Along the way, some further points emerged, and it is worth recapping.

(4) That the dwarves had been willing to help out Bilbo in dangerous times too:

- When he did not return from the trolls
- When he could not run fast enough from the goblins, and they carried him
- When he couldn't climb a tree to escape from the wolves.

(5) The dwarves and Bilbo constituted a team. And therefore they were entitled to each expect the others to help out whenever possible.

(6) If you want to judge with hindsight, then in the end everything works out for a much greater good. Sauron cannot ally with Smaug. Eriador is saved from dragon-fire.

- This is in contrast with a convenient use of hindsight: to judge this question at the moment when Bilbo and Thorin fall out.
- Thorin repents of his harsh words, and Bilbo forgives him.
- Bilbo is rightly proud of his part in the Quest.

(7) The house of Durin was known as a force for good throughout the north of Middle Earth. From the Second Age alliance with the elves of Ost-in-Edhil in Hollin, through the last Alliance, its good relations with elves, men and latterly hobbits were well-known. What was good for them, would be good for all people of good will. Gandalf's endorsement confirmed this.

It was a deserving cause at the outset, to rectify the injustice done to the House of Durin. To defeat a dragon was obviously a deserving cause, and Bilbo knew it, and was being rewarded handsomely for his part in that cause. So the dwarves deserved his help.

And that is the last post in this debate, and this tournament from the Periaur and from Snaga!:)

"Thanks goodness!" said Bilbo laughing, and handed him the tobacco-jar.