Round 10: GoT vs GoE [Archive]

omnipotent_elf

11-14-2003, 02:36 AM

Gollums portrayal within the hobbit, depicts him as a powerful being, one capable of dealing suffering. Indeed, Tolkiens words reflect an ideal that gollum caused more suffering then he recieved.

from Riddles in the dark, the hobbit
Goblin he(gollum) thought good, when he could get it; but he took care they never found him out. He just throttled them from behind, if they ever came down alone anywhere near the edge of the water, while he was prowling about. They very seldom did, for they had a feeling that something unpleasant was lurking down there, down at the very roots of the mountain.They had come on the lake, when they were tunneling down long ago, and they found they could go no furthur; so there their road ended in that direction, and there was no reason to go that way-unless the great goblin sent them. Sometimes he took fancy for fish from the lake, and sometimes neither goblin nor fish came back.

The description supplied by Tolkien depicts goblin fear. I would be fearfull if i was forced to a lake in which neither goblin nor fish returned. They feared gollum. Therefore the presentation of gollum, within the hobbit, reflects a being who causes more suffering then he recieves. Indeed, gollum, never in danger as he took care that "they never found him out", and indeed goblins attempted to stay away from gollum. By the very nature of this, gollum cannot, from the writings of the hobbit, have suffered more then any other race. Indeed, the suffering of the goblins, a race of middle earth, was much greater then that of gollum.

Even the riddle competiton which Gollum forced upon Bilbo was aimed at causing suffering (this time the death of Bilbo, which is emphasised by sufferings definition as a major example). Indeed,
the deal

from Riddles in the dark, the hobbit
"bless us and splash us, my presciousss! I guess it's a choice feast; at least a tasty morsel"

and

from Riddles in the dark, the hobbit
"It must have a competition with us, my presciouss! If prescious asks, and it doesn't answer, we eats it.

The deal was not made from a being who WAS suffering, it was made by a being which wanted to CAUSE suffering. Thus, from the hobbit, gollum does not suffer as much as he causes suffering. As a result, while living near the goblin king, Gollum did not suffer. He was living in an area in which the food "he thought good". Gollum was not suffering. The goblins were.

Lhunithiliel

11-14-2003, 10:27 AM

Did Gollum suffer more than anyone in Middle-earth ever had?

To answer this question we see two ways:

one – to start browsing through the stories in the Legendarium, pick up a character and say: “See! He/she suffered so much! How would one even try to compare his/her suffering to those of the wretched creature of Gollum?!” But then others will definitely find the destiny of yet another character who suffered even greater, in their opinion, and claim that that character’s sufferings were even greater than those of anyone else! …

Thus we shall have to forever keep on comparing the fates of all the characters known – both between them, and on the other hand – each one’s sufferings compared to those of Gollum.

But if we look deeper we’ll see that in the world of Arda (and Middle-earth as a part of it) grievously marred by Evil, there is very much grief present everywhere and at any point of the story, and we may thus trace the sufferings of all the races and their individual representatives in their struggles for freedom, peace, well-being, power etc.

So, this line will lead us nowhere! For our arguments will ever be strongly based upon personal = individual perceptions, opinions, partiality etc. of us as readers.

However, we may chose line
two – to establish a criteria on the base of which we can find out what is it that causes the sufferings of one or another and to achieve some sensible understanding of the very nature of this cause.

This line will also provide us with the chance of finding out whether the sufferers (Gollum mainly of course!) have some way out, some sort of salvation from their sufferings.
Because we firmly believe that the lesser hope for salvation of the soul for the sufferer, the greater his/her suffering is!

The GoT – team has chosen line two and believes to have found the criteria. To this I’ll come a bit later.

First, let’s see what our opponents have said.
In answer to the question of the Debate they say: “No! Gollum was not the one who suffered most. There are others who did.”
Thus,, they seem to have chosen line one! :eek:

And following this line, they provided a list of those who suffered more than Gollum: the Rohirrim, Deagol, the Goblin King etc.
Oh! But I could also add a couple of dozens of names too!!!! ;) (Feanor, Maedhros, Luthien, Beren, Turin, Hurin, Morwen…) …. And I am ready to argue for weeks in favour of the sufferings of those from my list against those from yours! Shall I continue? I think not!
Besides, ask Gollum how he felt and how great his sufferings were when Sauron tortured him! (just a small reminding about Gollum’s sufferings of which our opponents seem to not pay attention to!)

I have, however, already explained where we think such a line will lead us and the debate if we follow it! Lots of sufferers lived and died in Arda and in ME in particular! Who is to judge who suffered more? We? And who are we to judge?! We were not the ones who created those characters nor their stories. Only their creator can judge them because we think that each of Tolkien’s characters was once created for a purpose! So, we believe that only Tolkien can be the true judge about the extent of the sufferings of one or another of the characters he created!

tbc

Lhunithiliel

11-14-2003, 10:28 AM

And what does Tolkien say on the sufferings and of those of Gollum in particular?

Let’s see:
Letter-181: Into the ultimate judgement upon Gollum I would not care to enquire. This would be to investigate 'Goddes privitee', as the Medievals said. Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him. His marvellous courage and endurance, as great as Frodo and Sam's or greater, being devoted to evil was portentous, but not honourable. I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge.
Letter-113: It is one of the mysteries of pain that it is, for the sufferer, an opportunity for good, a path of ascent however hard. But it remains an 'evil', and it must dismay any conscience to have caused it carelessly, or in excess, let alone wilfully.
In me simplest case: if a man has stolen something from me, then before God I declare it a gift. That is, of course, a simple way of making use of a wrong, and getting rid of the sting, but that is not the direct object (or it would not be effective); for it seems to me probable that such a gift has effect on the culprit's situation before God, and in any case in any true desire to 'forgive' the desire that that should be so must be present. What happens when the culprit is genuinely repentant, but the sufferer is deeply resentful and withholds all 'forgiveness'? It is a terrible thought, to deter anyone from running the risk of needlessly causing such an 'evil'. Of course, the power of mercy is only delegated and is always exercised with or without cooperation by Higher Authority.

I underlined and highlighted some portions of the above quotes that clearly express Tolkien’s attitude towards the matter of suffering in general!
Therefore, he himself gives us the clue, the base, the wanted criteria which can help us decide who suffered most and was Gollum this one.

It is obvious that Tolkien believes that those, who found no salvation for their souls, for no chance for repentance was ever given to them, are the greatest sufferers in Arda and in ME in particular.

Following Tolkien’s understanding and agreeing with him, the GoT therefore states:

The criteria on the base of which the question of the present debate can be answered we call the chance for repentance!

And based on it, we claim that

Yes, Gollum suffered most than anyone else in Middle-earth! Because to him only was denied the only chance that could save his soul, the only chance for repentance and salvation.

Letter – 246: For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes …when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is wasted.
Letter 181: By temporizing, not fixing the still not wholly corrupt Smeagol-will towards good in the debate in the slag hole, he weakened himself for the final chance when dawning love of Frodo was too easily withered by the jealousy of Sam before Shelob's lair. After that he was lost.
Letter-191: There exists the possibility of being placed in positions beyond one's power. In which case (as I believe) salvation from ruin will depend on something apparently unconnected: the general sanctity (and humility and mercy) of the sacrificial person.
A terrible doom it is to face the chance of salvation through repentance and being ruthlessly denied it!
The other sufferers either found their salvation, or rejected the chances willingly. But to want to repent and find salvation and be deprived of it – this is a sufferings with no comparison!
This fate Gollum had! Therefore he becomes the one whose sufferings can be thus considered most bitter and worst than the sufferings of anyone else.

Our arguments will follow further on, as the debate develops.

Scatha

11-14-2003, 05:31 PM

Only part of Gollum wanted to repent, but that part listened to the name of smeagol. Smeagol was the part of Gollum that was kind and had a chance for salvation, the part not fully corrupted and that responded to kindness. Yet this was the same person that killed Deagol to obtain the One ring.

Gollum, who represents the corrupted side of this creature, was evil to it's core, therefor did not suffer, yet more made other suffer by his deeds. Killing orcs, his kin and who knows what else this creature has killed. It would have killed Bilbo, if he had the chance to do so.

No, Gollum caused others to suffer, leaving behind widows and children (not accounting for race here) of the victims he made.

Smeagol has had chances, but as Gollum ignored them.

Therefor the logical conclusion is that he did not suffer more then anyone else in ME.

Lhunithiliel

11-14-2003, 07:42 PM

A few answers:
Omnipotent_elf:
Our case is determined by thse factors

* Others suffered equally, if not greater : look at the people of rohan(for one)!
Line one? :eek:
We may continue forever defending our personal points of view who suffered most if we take this superficial understanding of "suffering".
But I have already cited Tolkien on this matter.
* Gollum had a lifestyle (from the hobbit) in which people were fearful of him - especially the goblin king. Thus he did not suffer, as indeed, he caused others to suffer! (people of rohan didn't do that)
He did not suffer because he caused others to suffer?
Strange logic!
And I saw it in Scatha's post too!

But if we go by this logic, tell me, did Turin suffer when causing sufferings to so many people? Oh! He did, didn't he! Then based on this logic, Gollum must have suffered most for the sufferings he himself caused! ;)
*gollum was never exiled - his fate never suffered like that of others
Oh yes he was! For about 440 years (if I'm not mistaken) he was exiled from the world. Hated by everyone and most important - hated by himself, he hid in the Misty Mountains where he believed he could find peace for his doomed soul.
*gollum's "suffering" was due to his own devices - he caused the death of deagol
I wouldn't mistake wickidness for [/i]suffering[/i]!
Two completely different things!
One may be wicked and still suffer. You yourself gave the example with the goblins!
*gollum's own suffering was shared by other creatures - Isildur (who suffered a far greater fate then gollum, death), Bilbo, and all other ringbearers(including that of the wringwraiths, who lost their souls). Thus he was the not the only one suffering and indeed, he still remained himself, so thus could not be suffer more then those who paid a far greater price, their lives or their wills!.
Death - you say is the criteria for greatest suffering?
IMO it depends what one is dying for! Or better say - what did a death lead to?
Isildur died but his death brought no good.
Bilbo ?????
Ah! The Ringwraiths! ;) Great evil these creatures brought to the world . The point is that they NEVER wanted to repent! The lust for power and domination made them lose their souls forever. Not in one instant none of them EVER regretted his choice or EVER wished or tried to undo the wrong done to the others!

Quite a different case with Gollum, though!
A wicked creature, struggling to survive under a burden he was not ready to bear - the immense influence of the Ring! Chased by everyone. In need to survive at any price...
Yet, wicked to his bones, Gollum still could find a moment in which he understood the evil done and caused by his actions and he was ready to repent and bring back the good in him as a return to Frodo's generosity. It was on the edge of a knife and were it not for Sam's misunderstanding his master's intentions, Gollum could have had the chance to save the one thing that Tolkien always shows to be more, MUCH more important - the soul!
If he had refused this chance - then who would blame us for despising him and never bother about what and how much he suffered!
But that was not the case!
The good in this creature responded to the power of generosity and was ready to "pay back" for it.
And at that tiny spot of time, the ONLY chance he had was wiped away by Sam's mistake.
And he was lost forever.
To be forever denied kindness and purity of soul- this is a suffering that is incredibly hard to bear!

Scatha: Only part of Gollum wanted to repent, but that part listened to the name of smeagol. Smeagol was the part of Gollum that was kind and had a chance for salvation, the part not fully corrupted and that responded to kindness. Yet this was the same person that killed Deagol to obtain the One ring.
Exactly! Imagine the extent of suffering that this poor creature had to bear fighting with himself! He was never of a strong soul. That's why he was so easily corrupted by the Ring!
But can you imagine the horror of fighting the evil in yourself?
Brrr!
Hard for far more outstanding people (both in mythical and in real worlds!), what to speak about Gollum!
No pain can cause more suffering than the inner struggle!
And Gollum had to deal with this for hundreds of years!
This is not mere suffering. This is torture!

omnipotent_elf

11-15-2003, 12:33 AM

Line one? :eek:

what brought that on, my debate post was the initial post!!!!!:D

now: Because we firmly believe that the lesser hope for salvation of the soul for the sufferer, the greater his/her suffering is!

That is an interesting theory. But without comparison, there is a snowballs chance in hell of proving who suffered greater. that is what the question is asking. How can you tell me that the greatest sufferer is gollum, if you cant even compare the suffering of others?

Point 1: first, i must address this

sufferers in Arda and in ME in particular. But if we look deeper we’ll see that in the world of Arda (and Middle-earth as a part of it)

the questions dictates that we talk about middle earth. By comparing a larger scale, it is like making statements about Australia from looking at a world context! The interpretations are often generalised and don't give the full picture (and dare i say it, wrong in some cases). By referring to arda, you are chasing a red herring.

Point 2: I mean to prove this point by a way you did not consider : similar presentation of gollum, across both hobbit and LOTR. By doing so, his character can be established, and weather he suffered, throughout his WHOLE LIFE greater then anyone else, is therefore represented.

He did not suffer because he caused others to suffer?
Strange logic!

I disagree. Gollums portrayal in the hobbit was one in which he caused the goblins more grief then he himself recieved. By that very logic, he cannot have suffered the most.
However, i would also like to say that this is not the only time in which Tolkien referred to the ability of Gollum to cause suffering is also displayed.

[I] from Fellowship Of The Ring, The great river
'ah!', said Aragorn 'So you know about our little footpad do you? He padded after us through Moria and right down to Nimrodel. Since we took to boats, he has been lying on a log and paddling with hand and feet. I have tried to catch him once or twice at night; but he is slier then a fox, and as slippery as a fish. I hoped the river voyage would beat him, but he is too clever a water-man".
and
"Orcs" cried Gimli. "gollums doing, I'll be bound". said Sam to Frodo. "And a nice place to choose, too. The river seems set on taking us right into their arms"

does this sound like the works of a creature which is suffering the pain and suffering of 100's of years. NO. Unlike, the melodramtic portrayal of the "tortured gollum", gollum still had his wits, his stealth, his power.

Furthur: gollum, in the hobbit (and the VERY MANY years he spent near the Goblin king, in the misty mountaain) was not under torture. He had "his prescious", was next to food "which he liked", struck fear into the goblins so he would hardly be disturbed. as you said "He hid in the Misty Mountains where he believed he could find peace for his doomed soul.". Indeed he did. He found peace. By doing so, for many hundred years, he was able to prevent his own suffering.

Also, from my knowledge (so please, forgive me if i'm wrong), gollum only started the "torture" you speak of, (his conscious returning) once he had lost possesion of the one ring. Was that for hundreds of years? NO. I would of thought it was at most 60 years.

Gollum, who represents the corrupted side of this creature, was evil to it's core, therefor did not suffer, yet more made other suffer by his deeds

Scatha is right. Gollum, evil to the core, did not suffer. Gollum was prevelent while he had the ring.

Other creatures (allthough, it is all up to perceptions, i guess....)suffered for a lot longer time period, even their whole lives. Gollum did not.

Point 3: Ah! The Ringwraiths! Great evil these creatures brought to the world . The point is that they NEVER wanted to repent!

if my will was controlled by my master, i would not like to go against him either... They had no will of their own. How could they have wanted to repent?

Pont 4: Three rings for the elven-kings under the sky
seven for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone
Nine for mortal men doomed to die
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the land of mordor where the shadows lie
One rind to rule them all, one ring to find them
one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
in the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie

this is the prophecy.
I see no torture, no doomed soul among that of the one ring. The corruption came from within, so to an effect was gollums own fault
Now: "nine rings for Mortal men doomed to die" - We have the torture you were referring too. Hundereds of years of it
The men who accepted the rings were doomed. Gollum accepted the one ring, but by doing so, was not dooming himself. The ringwriaths lost their souls forever, therefor suffering a much worse fate (please forgive me, if i have strayed into line 1. ((sense the sarcasm)) However, I think it needed to be shown that gollums suffering was his own fault.)

But to want to repent and find salvation and be deprived of it – this is a sufferings with no comparison!

What about the deprevation of a will, of a soul. I would have thought that losing your soul, your will, your humanity is a suffering of no comparison. For hundreds of years,a loss in control, the doing of deeds you cant even control. These things suffice for the greatest suffering - one which you can bring upon others.

Death - you say is the criteria for greatest suffering?

Death is the ultimate sacrifice, thus the ultimate suffering, the ultimate loss. Tolkien represents this by the fact that the elves ultimate sacrifce was death. In ME, the unlitmae suffering was death!

Scatha

11-15-2003, 01:37 AM

Allow me to add a small note to that.

To be forever denied kindness and purity of soul- this is a suffering that is incredibly hard to bear!

Did not Frodo show Gollum kindness?
Then how can you state that he was denied of it forever?

This is a contradiction, Lhun.

Gil-Galad

11-15-2003, 02:45 AM

Ok,I think it is high time took part in the debate!!Great job Lhun!!!!!

But!!
First I would like to comment some of Omnipotent_elf's statesments.

I disagree. Gollums portrayal in the hobbit was one in which he caused the goblins more grief then he himself recieved.

He caused them suffer?How?You want to compare their "suffer" with Gollum's one?
Ok.From what did the Goblins suffer?From Gollum's actions,from his need to eat.It was a physical suffer.And what did they do.They stopped going there!!Only in very rare occasions they went there.Because they knew something dangerous was there.And they stopped going there.They made their choice .
And what about Gollum?
First of all HE DID SUFFER from the fact that he had to leave his place near the river.

There was among them a family of high repute, for it was large and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had. The most inquisitive and curious-minded of that family was called Sméagol. He was interested in roots and beginnings; he dived into deep pools; he burrowed under trees and growing plants; he tunnelled into green mounds; and he ceased to look up at the hill-tops, or the leaves on trees, or the flowers opening in the air: his head and his eyes were downward.

From this quote we can infer that Gollum was quite an unusual hobbit-curious one.Just like Bilbo.Smeagol was from a family of a high repute,which means also that he had a lot of contacts with other hobbits.To be with a good reputy among the other hobbits meant to be rich and talkeble person with opinion for every thing.And Smeagol definitely had friends!!!But the One found him and he changed,not because he wanted to but because he nobody could resist the Ring.He changed in such a way that he had to leave.He left not because of his will but because of the circumstances,because of other's attitude towards him.We can see how much he suffered from that from the next quote:

But these ordinary aboveground everyday sort of riddles were tiring for him. Also they reminded him of days when he had been less lonely and sneaky and nasty, and that put him out of temper.

Why he hated everything which reminded him about his life,before finding the One?Because it reminded him about the life he had and about the fact that he would not ever have it.Thus it is absolutely correct to state that all is memories caused a pain in his heart and soul.We can state that he did not like the life he had,but he DID NOT have a choice.
While the Goblins were able to chose not to go to the lake and thus not to "suffer",Gollum did not have a choice,he did not have where to go,he did not have where to escape,he was not able to escape from the Ring.And that was probably the worst thing- the psychical suffering he had.It lasted forever,till his dead(just for a comparison the Goblins did no suffer 500 years!)

The Ring did want to let him even die in peace after Gollum lost it.Let's make a comparison.What happened to Bilbo in Rivendell?When Frodo met him Bilbo seemed really old and exhausted from life.He seemed as if he was 111 years old.He faced aging without the ring.
And what happened to Gollum?The ring poisoned his life 500 years!!!Thus Gollum lived more than any other mortal creature!!!!And what happened?The normal thing would be to die without the Ring,because it supported his life and without it he should have been dead long time ago.But no,he did not die,his suffering countinued.For the Ring did not let him die.Gollum could have faced aging just like Bilbo,and die fastly because 500 years life was something quiote unusual.But he did not have even this chance!!!!He did not have even this chance to find the rest he desired so much!The One Ring did not let him even die.
And while Bilbo finally was able to find the rest he desired so much,Gollum did not have this
choice .
As you can see,the difference between the Goblins and Gollum is that they had a choice while Gollum did not have any choice.

posted by Omnipotent _ef
Indeed he did. He found peace. By doing so, for many hundred years, he was able to prevent his own suffering.
Did he found peace?Another comparison now.This time with Frodo.Frodo too possessed the Ring for some time,and with the time he was obsessed by it too.And what happened to Frodo?He started suffering,because of the burdeon he carried,because of the Ring he was carrying,because Frodo was trying to oppose it.
The same did Gollum,but he was too weak,he could not oppose the Ring and hewas obsessed and he had to get used to that burdeon,living in the Misty Montains.He had the ring and that made him happy,but he also was not able to leave it,despite the burdeo,and he had to carry it for 500 years!!That is why he also hated the One.But he could not resist as I said.
That was the thing which made Gollum suffer more than everybody else.He knew he did not have any chance,he knew there was no hope for him.No matter how much he wanted to escape from his destiny.

- Sméagol promised, - said the first thought.

Sméagol promised to help the master

- But Sméagol said he would be very very good. Nice hobbit! He took cruel rope off Sméagol's leg. He speaks nicely to me.

From these quotes (and from some others which I am too lazy to find-shame one me! ;) ) it can be clearly stated that Gollum did everything possible to escape his destiny,to escape from his burdeon.He was very close to it,because of Frodo's attitude towards him!An attitude based on compassion,pity,even love.Smeagol faced an attitude which gave him encouraged his fight,his psychical fight agains the Ring and heavy burdeon.He desired for repentance and he was very close to it,but then even the repentace he desired,he begged was refused.Sam's jealousy and distrust,and attitude broke into pieces the last try of the poorest creature ever to repent.

Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee - but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.
Yes,this is the way in which a creature without any hope for saving,without any hope for escaping from his doom looks like.Heart-rending.

Gil-Galad

11-15-2003, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by Scatha

Did not Frodo show Gollum kindness?
Then how can you state that he was denied of it forever?

This is a contradiction, Lhun.
This is not a contraciction.Frodo's attitude towards Smeagol engouraged Smeagol's hope that his repentance will be accepted.But at the end Samwise's actions broke everything.Thus once again,due to the distrust and jealousy by Sam ,repentance was refused to Gollum,and nobody deserves such a refusal.
Even Melkor received a chance to repent after the first time he was defeated by the Valar(although he did not repent actually).Even the One who is the reason for all suffering in Middle-earth received such a chance,but Gollum did not.

Lhunithiliel

11-15-2003, 09:37 AM

I see that our opponents do prefer to stick to "Line 1"!
As much as I am amazed at this decision, just because I like you guys :D, I would like to offer you sth.
Bring out the greatest martir in your opinion and then we'll start comparing his/her sufferings to those of Gollum.
This is fair , don't you agree?
Thus we shall be able to focus. Otherwise, as I have multiple times already said we can spend the whole week of the debate, and many weeks to come, bringing forward various examples from the Legendarium.

Now... some answers

Omnipotent_elf:
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Lhun: Because we firmly believe that the lesser hope for salvation of the soul for the sufferer, the greater his/her suffering is!
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That is an interesting theory. But without comparison, there is a snowballs chance in hell of proving who suffered greater. that is what the question is asking. How can you tell me that the greatest sufferer is gollum, if you cant even compare the suffering of others?
Hey! I DID use the comparatives! Which means that I AM doing comparisons! You make me wonder : either you did not express yourself clearly or you think I am stupid enough as to state the Gollum suffered the most without making any comparisons! :eek:
Nah! I don't think the last is possible!

the questions dictates that we talk about middle earth.
I don't usually like being told what to do, but I do agree with you on this! :)

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Lhun: He did not suffer because he caused others to suffer?
Strange logic!

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I disagree. Gollums portrayal in the hobbit was one in which he caused the goblins more grief then he himself recieved. By that very logic, he cannot have suffered the most.
But
1/ You quoted only one part of my statement.!
2/ You still don't seem to be able to answer the end of my statement (which you preferred to not quote). You did not answer my question about Turin!
But I'm mean (a wraith :p ) and I'll ask again:
Did Turin suffer while causing sufferings to so many other people?
By your logic he did not! :eek:

Furthur: gollum, in the hobbit (and the VERY MANY years he spent near the Goblin king, in the misty mountaain) was not under torture. He had "his prescious", was next to food "which he liked", struck fear into the goblins so he would hardly be disturbed. as you said "He hid in the Misty Mountains where he believed he could find peace for his doomed soul.". Indeed he did. He found peace. By doing so, for many hundred years, he was able to prevent his own suffering.

Also, from my knowledge (so please, forgive me if i'm wrong), gollum only started the "torture" you speak of, (his conscious returning) once he had lost possesion of the one ring. Was that for hundreds of years? NO. I would of thought it was at most 60 years.
Can you prove that Gollum did not suffer while living in exile in the MM? Can I prove the opposite? Do we have enough information to do this? Unfortunately not enough! Tolkien brought Gollum onto the "stage" of events years after he first got hold of the Ring. All of a sudden Gollum started to play an important role and Tolkien started paying more and more attention to him. In the "Hobbit" Gollum was not a character to influence events. But later, in the LOTR Tolkien had to provide a suitable link and he had to introduce Gollum again and to pay more attention to this character ...
Here is what he says in Letter 70 To Christopher Tolkien; 21 May 1944 :
Gollum continues to develop into a most intriguing character.
Gollum was a developing character gaining more and more importance in the course of writing the story!
Besides, Gil-Galad provided wonderful comments on some issues concerning this period of existance of Gollum! I bet he satisfied your curiosity on the "goblin"-issue. ;)

if my will was controlled by my master, i would not like to go against him either... They had no will of their own. How could they have wanted to repent?
The will of the Ringwraiths was totally subdued and controlled by Sauron through the rings. Completely right!
The very same thing however experiences Gollum! The Ring is his Master and the Ring controlls his life.
Now let's see
>> The Ringwraiths not once had tried to counter the force that controlled their will. They simply never wanted to get rid of it! Never did it cross their fully corrupted minds to try to undo the evil they had done and were still causing! No resistence whatsoever!

>> Gollum's case however is far much different!
Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017 and taken Barad-dûr, and there questioned and tormented. When he had learned what he could from him, Sauron released him and sent him forth again. He did not trust Gollum, for he divined something indomitable in him, which could not be overcome, even by the Shadow of Fear, except by destroying him.
UT, Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo
Read carefully the underlined extract, please!
Sauron NOT even through all his powers could overcome the core of good he sensed in Gollum! That's why he could not trust him, because he feared a power that could not be overcome!

This clearly shows that to say that "Gollum" prevailed in the character of "Gollum-Smeagol" is a bit hasty decision.

But to return to the Ringwraiths. Why did Sauron trusted them ? Because they had long before lost any good in them, they fully corrupted and Tolkien says in the same work (the one I quoted from above) that even if any of them had found the ring it would've never crossed his mind to wield it but he would've hurried to his Master to deliver the Ring to him. No resistance!

Gollum, on the other hand resisted! And suffered for that! And suffered greatly and crually - both physically and mentally!

What about the deprevation of a will, of a soul. I would have thought that losing your soul, your will, your humanity is a suffering of no comparison. For hundreds of years,a loss in control, the doing of deeds you cant even control. These things suffice for the greatest suffering - one which you can bring upon others.
How very well put!
But it all applies to Gollum case!
Oh! I see! You are backing our argument! Why!!! Thank you!!! ;)

And finally
Death is the ultimate sacrifice, thus the ultimate suffering, the ultimate loss. Tolkien represents this by the fact that the elves ultimate sacrifce was death. In ME, the unlitmae suffering was death!
As I said before death is a grievious thing to happen in the life of anyone. But it strongly depends on the: a/ cause of death and b/ consequences.
I think that you will agree that the deaths worth being considered are those cases when someone sacrificed his/her life.

Let's see what Tolkien says about it all:
Letter:191
There exists the possibility of being placed in positions beyond one's power. In which case (as I believe) salvation from ruin will depend on something apparently unconnected: the general sanctity (and humility and mercy) of the sacrificial person.
and
Letter:246

Nonetheless, I think it can be observed in history and experience that some individuals seem to be placed in 'sacrificial' positions: situations or tasks that for perfection of solution demand powers beyond their utmost limits, even beyond all possible limits for an incarnate creature in a physical world – in which a body may be destroyed, or so maimed that it affects the mind and will. Judgement upon any such case should then depend on the motives and disposition with which he started out, and should weigh his actions against the utmost possibility of his powers, all along the road to whatever proved the breaking-point.
So, you see, there it is! This the understanding of Tolkien himself ion the matter of sacrifice and the death it leads to.
The above quotes reveal Tolkien's attitude towards cases like the one of Gollum. Because what he speaks of is in fact Gollum's case!
So... it thus becomes obvious that in such cases death could be considered as a relief, as a salvation... Not for Gollum however! Gil-Galad commented wonderfully on this matter and I need not now repeat what he said.
I would like to however remind it

- Gollum had a life controlled by powers largely stronger than his will, yet he tried to oppose them! That caused to him sufferings that noone else would have endured!
- Gollum was not given the choice or the chance of meeting a peaceful end. This is a cruel doom!

Lhunithiliel

11-15-2003, 10:07 AM

To Scatha's post:
Allow me to add a small note to that.

quote:
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Lhun: To be forever denied kindness and purity of soul- this is a suffering that is incredibly hard to bear!
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Did not Frodo show Gollum kindness?
Then how can you state that he was denied of it forever?

This is a contradiction, Lhun.
There would have been no contradiction, my friend, if you quoted the WHOLE part.
Besides, is it that you don't or that you don't WANT to understand what we are saying?
Gollum - Frodo's relation was a most important one! It was for Frodo's attitude to Gollum that "Smeagol" appeared! There could have been a slavation for the poor creature at that tiny spot of time...were it not for Sam's mistake and misunderstanding. It is Sam's reaction that killed "Smeagol" not Frodo's!

This, however lets me continue a bit further with my arguments
We are speaking here of Gollum's sufferings and, I hope, GoT's position on this is clear.

Gollum, we state, suffered most because he was deprived of the chance to find salvation for his soul and he was deprived of the opportunity to make a choice for being so strongly influenced by the Ring and for being rejected by everyone (except for Frodo).

I just can NOT neglect sth. very interesting that I found in relation to this matter in Tolkien's Letters (To me, these actually are a sort of a recording from which I "hear" Tolkien's voice! I trust this source absolutely!)
Letter:181
At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end – but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one could have done for Frodo!
Into the ultimate judgement upon Gollum I would not care to enquire. This would be to investigate 'Goddes privitee', as the Medievals said. Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him. His marvellous courage and endurance, as great as Frodo and Sam's or greater, being devoted to evil was portentous, but not honourable. I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge. The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean son of thief before it crossed his path. Need it ever have crossed his path? Need anything dangerous ever cross any of our paths? A kind of answer could be found in trying to imagine Gollum overcoming temptation. The story would have been quite different!
and further:
Letter:246
For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense ) wasted. Shelob's lair became inevitable.
This is due of course to the 'logic of the story'. Sam could hardly have acted differently. (He did reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222)4 but for the good of Gollum too late.) If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some ***** twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.
I think that an effect of his partial regeneration by love would have been a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He would have perceived the evil of Sauron, and suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite: the only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together – and in a flash he may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo. Frodo in the tale actually takes the Ring and claims it, and certainly he too would have had a clear vision – but he was not given any time: he was immediately attacked by Gollum. When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same way: cast himself with the Ring into the abyss. If not he would of course have completely failed. It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?
I appologize for the length of the above two quotes! I could've rendered the content into a much shorter version, but why not listen to Tolkien!!!!!!
HE is the ultimate source to be trusted!

And we also state that it is wrong to mistake "wickidness" with "suffering". We state it is wrong to think that if one is wicked he/she cannot suffer!

We state that the heaviest sufferings are those mental battles within one's own mind. The more fierce these are the greater sufferings for the one who experiences this mental torture!
And we see it in Gollum's case!

omnipotent_elf

11-15-2003, 11:26 AM

the questions dictates that we talk about middle earth.
hey- no fair! you didn't quote me fully!
and then you state
1/ You quoted only one part of my statement.!
i guess we all get a bit lazy :rolleyes:

Hey! I DID use the comparatives!
Which means that I AM doing comparisons! You make me wonder : either you did not express yourself clearly or you think I am stupid enough as to state the Gollum suffered the most without making any comparisons!

now, we all know i didn't (aparently) express myself properly!
my pure meaning was that to deny "line 1" completely is to deny aspects which have a bearing. I mean, you are debating from the perspective that gollum. If you can detach yourself completely from a strong feeling that gollum suffered the most (which would indeed lead to you agreeing with our side, ;) :D :rolleyes: ), then yes, by all means tell us line one has no bearing on THE argument

From these quotes (and from some others which I am too lazy to find-shame one me! ) it can be clearly stated that Gollum did everything possible to escape his destiny,to escape from his burdeon

YES, BY LEADING THEM INTO SHEALOB. This is yet another way in which gollum attempted to cause suffering.

Did Turin suffer while causing sufferings to so many other people?
By your logic he did not!

how?. Of course Turin did. But did he suffer greater then that of the sufferings he caused?, i think not!

But to return to the Ringwraiths. Why did Sauron trusted them ? Because they had long before lost any good in them, they fully corrupted and Tolkien says in the same work (the one I quoted from above) that even if any of them had found the ring it would've never crossed his mind to wield it but he would've hurried to his Master to deliver the Ring to him. No resistance! you do realise that my quotes are going to be exceedingly long now?

Ok. Ringwraiths lost their powers of thought, will, freedom. Like you said, if they found the ring it would've never crossed thier mind to wield it. Indeed, surely that would have been suffering enough, to have a master who controlled vereything you thought.

and : why did Sauron trust them?. He had complete control over them. They do not do his bidding, they suffer. They do his bidding, they suffer.

And what happened to Gollum?The ring poisoned his life 500 years!!! I only quoted this much because it had a thus after it - may i stop explaining why i use your quotes now?

Gollums life had been poisened?. He was left alone, he had food to eat (which he liked), he had freedom, he had a place to live undisturbed. He did not suffer, the way in which the ringwriaths suffered for those many years!. They were not left alone. They were in continuous suffering, doing the bidding of their master

Exactly! Imagine the extent of suffering that this poor creature had to bear fighting with himself! He was never of a strong soul. That's why he was so easily corrupted by the Ring!

sorry, i know we've moved on, but imagine the ringwriaths. They had to suffer the exact corruption you speak of, but they had no chance of redemption. Image, to know that you have absolutely no way of redeeming yourself, you have no way of making up for the evil you've done. You have no freedom. No will. No mind. That suffering is more ubearable then fighting with the hope of someday redeeming oneself, to find oneself free!

From this quote we can infer that Gollum was quite an unusual hobbit-curious one.Just like Bilbo.Smeagol was from a family of a high repute,which means also that he had a lot of contacts with other hobbits.To be with a good reputy among the other hobbits meant to be rich and talkeble person with opinion for every thing.And Smeagol definitely had friends!!!But the One found him and he changed,not because he wanted to but because he nobody could resist the Ring.He changed in such a way that he had to leave.He left not because of his will but because of the circumstances,because of other's attitude towards him.[QUOTE]

hmmm....Faramir did not resist the ring, did he? niether Aragorn.......Bilbo obviously did not resist the temptation to stalk frodo and Sam
PLEASE!!!
Smeagol was just as strong willed, if not more, for keeping his sanity and not ruling the world despite the fact he had the power to do so.

[QUOTE]Gollum was a developing character gaining more and more importance in the course of writing the story!

quite right, but your interpretation of this differs from mine. Gollum was indeed developing more intrigue, but that involved a greater role within the story. Gollum, himself, was important within the hobbit

In the "Hobbit" Gollum was not a character to influence events

so bilbo obtaining the ring, and finding a way out of the misty mountains had absolutely no effect on the rest of the story?
really?

The Ringwraiths not once had tried to counter the force that controlled their will. They simply never wanted to get rid of it! Never did it cross their fully corrupted minds to try to undo the evil they had done and were still causing! No resistence whatsoever!

HOW COULD THEY. Sauron, as you have so nicely pointed out, controlled their will. No controll over will = no chioce in resistence. That is a great suffering. To exist, yet not to be able to controll oneself. Gollum could control himself. He did not have to suffer the ideal that he could never repent. Never find retribution for the atrocites (actually wait, did he ever commit atrocities?) which he commited

tbc (aparently, my arguments were too long...first time for everything)

omnipotent_elf

11-15-2003, 11:28 AM

and now it continues

He caused them suffer?How?You want to compare their "suffer" with Gollum's one?
Ok.From what did the Goblins suffer?From Gollum's actions,from his need to eat.It was a physical suffer.And what did they do.They stopped going there!!Only in very rare occasions they went there.Because they knew something dangerous was there.And they stopped going there.They made their choice .

well, death is a very great suffering, especillly for an inkling of fish, for which the fish was not even ensured...

The same did Gollum,but he was too weak,he could not oppose the Ring and hewas obsessed and he had to get used to that burdeon,living in the Misty Montains.He had the ring and that made him happy,but he also was not able to leave it,despite the burdeo,and he had to carry it for 500 years!!That is why he also hated the One.But he could not resist as I said.

But he was happy with it. He only "hated" it when it escaped from him. For at least 440 years, he was happy with it. Even if he did hate it(for limited times), he still had a happiness with it. How can you claim that he suffered greatly, due to an object which he both loved and hated. His suffering, due to something he loved, is something not alltogather unbearable. It is the reason he could not suffer like that of those who lost their souls.

If i have no made myself clear, i am stating that because gollum both loved and hated the ring, he did not suffer more then Frodo, who simply wished to be removed of the ring. Frodo did not love the ring, and thus suffered greater under it's influence.

Additionally, gollum's resistence to the ring was strong enough to not consume him, after 500 years. Boromir couldn't do it for one year!. if gollum's weak, what is Boromir?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Letter:191
There exists the possibility of being placed in positions beyond one's power. In which case (as I believe) salvation from ruin will depend on something apparently unconnected: the general sanctity (and humility and mercy) of the sacrificial person.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Letter:246

Nonetheless, I think it can be observed in history and experience that some individuals seem to be placed in 'sacrificial' positions: situations or tasks that for perfection of solution demand powers beyond their utmost limits, even beyond all possible limits for an incarnate creature in a physical world – in which a body may be destroyed, or so maimed that it affects the mind and will. Judgement upon any such case should then depend on the motives and disposition with which he started out, and should weigh his actions against the utmost possibility of his powers, all along the road to whatever proved the breaking-point.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, you see, there it is! This the understanding of Tolkien himself ion the matter of sacrifice and the death it leads to.
The above quotes reveal Tolkien's attitude towards cases like the one of Gollum. Because what he speaks of is in fact Gollum's case!

no it isn't. It could apply to the ringwraiths. Gollum never reached that exact breaking point, the way the ringwraiths had. The ringwraiths too, had their mind and bodied maimed, to an extent which far outweighs the small sacrifices of gollum.

- Gollum had a life controlled by powers largely stronger than his will, yet he tried to oppose them! That caused to him sufferings that noone else would have endured!The above quotes reveal Tolkien's attitude towards cases like the one of Gollum. Because what he speaks of is in fact Gollum's case!
Gollum was not given the choice or the chance of meeting a peaceful end. This is a cruel doom!

hello ---- ringwraiths.

Everything which you have provided as a suffering for gollum can be attributed to the lives of the ringwraiths. Yet the ringwraiths suffered greater. They had to endure the loss of their very souls. Gollum was never removed of his will, or a hope in redemption.
gollum even obtained a redemption within The Two Towers

Now: Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee - but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.

and your reply was

Yes,this is the way in which a creature without any hope for saving,without any hope for escaping from his doom looks like.Heart-rending.

He wasn't without hope. Frodo recovered. Bilbo recovered. With time, Smeagol too, would have recovered. He was showing the first fleeting signs within the quote, not showing hopelessness!

now, there is nothing except to eagerly await your reply
*eagerly awaits your reply*

omnipotent_elf

11-15-2003, 11:43 AM

sorry, i forgot this

This is not a contraciction.Frodo's attitude towards Smeagol engouraged Smeagol's hope that his repentance will be accepted.But at the end Samwise's actions broke everything.Thus once again,due to the distrust and jealousy by Sam ,repentance was refused to Gollum,and nobody deserves such a refusal.

icluding the ringwraiths?

Even Melkor received a chance to repent after the first time he was defeated by the Valar(although he did not repent actually).Even the One who is the reason for all suffering in Middle-earth received such a chance,but Gollum did not.

i beg to differ*get on hands and knees*

Gollum did not repent, but he also could have. He could have while out of the rings control!
yet, he didn't
The ringwraiths, had no such luck, being forever under the control of Sauron

Lhunithiliel

11-15-2003, 01:18 PM

Lhunithiliel suggested:
Bring out the greatest martir in your opinion and then we'll start comparing his/her sufferings to those of Gollum.
And our friends did so! They have obviously decided that the greatest martirs were the ringwraiths! ;)
And I suppose then we shall have to compare their sufferings to those of Gollum, right?

All right.
But surprisingly enough (even for myself :D) I'll be brief this time.

Throughout the story as it is there is not a place where Tolkien shows any "mental tortures" going on in the minds of the Ringwraiths!
On the other hand, much is there to show this in Gollum's case.
Then what to believe? Assumptions or statements?

In other words: Show me some quotes where a Ringwraith is shown to contemplate over his condition!
I doubt one can find such a thing. Simply because the author never dealt with this matter in their case!
While in Gollum's case Tolkien paid much attention to this matter.
Thus we witness the inner struggle within Gollum's mind and we actually witness the immense suffering he experienced!
No suffering of this kind is shown in the case of the Ringwraiths!

And I have noticed that you do agree with our point of view that this is the greatest suffering one can be put onto!

Now... a few minor details to address:
hey- no fair! you didn't quote me fully!
and then you state...
It's one thing to extract the essence of a statement and quite a different thing to extract one part of it and "fit" it to suit a statement of a different meaning, my friend! :)
I did the first!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did Turin suffer while causing sufferings to so many other people?
By your logic he did not!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how?. Of course Turin did. But did he suffer greater then that of the sufferings he caused?, i think not!
Show it to me, please! Prove it. ...Though we then may fall out of topic, I guess... But still... :rolleyes:

sorry, i know we've moved on, but imagine the ringwriaths. They had to suffer the exact corruption you speak of, but they had no chance of redemption. Image, to know that you have absolutely no way of redeeming yourself, you have no way of making up for the evil you've done. You have no freedom. No will. No mind. That suffering is more ubearable then fighting with the hope of someday redeeming oneself, to find oneself free!
Ah! The Ringwraiths again! :)
What you're saying is true (though only an assumption of yours!;) ). But then again... they NEVER questioned their status! They NEVER wanted to have this chance! No one ever deprived them of such a chance! It was their own choice and they never repented for making it!
While Gollum did and was unfortunately deprived of it!
See the difference now?
so bilbo obtaining the ring, and finding a way out of the misty mountains had absolutely no effect on the rest of the story?
really?
Yes!... I still hold to my (and Tolkien's) opinion that in the "Hobbit" Gollum still had no much importance for the events. What you bring in the above statement of yours concerns Bilbo, not Gollum!
If I am to agree with you, then we shall have to make Gollum the central figure of the WHOLE story as told in both books - the "Hobbit" and the LOTR, which he obviously is not!
But he was happy with it. He only "hated" it when it escaped from him. For at least 440 years, he was happy with it. Even if he did hate it(for limited times), he still had a happiness with it. How can you claim that he suffered greatly, due to an object which he both loved and hated. His suffering, due to something he loved, is something not alltogather unbearable. It is the reason he could not suffer like that of those who lost their souls.

If i have no made myself clear, i am stating that because gollum both loved and hated the ring, he did not suffer more then Frodo, who simply wished to be removed of the ring. Frodo did not love the ring, and thus suffered greater under it's influence.
But, Omni, can't you see it?
"love" and "hate" it at the same time !!!! That's the hardest punishment one's mind can be put onto !!!!

And here I find it essential to differentiate Frodo from Gollum.
There is much in common in these two characters!
Yet, I find a major difference too when addressing the issue of the influence of the Ring on each one of them!
In Frodo's case it was more "hatred" than "affection" or "attachment" to the Ring! Frodo's prevailing attitude towards the Ring was "hating" it! His mental sufferings were great! I do admit! But he still had always the support on behalf of many friends to help him bear these sufferings! And the best "friend" was himself! Frodo is a Hobbit! One of those astonishing creatures who proved more resilliant to evil than anyone else in ME! The "good" in him was far greater for he had been influenced by the Ring in much a shorter period of time. His "good" side was still strong when fighting the "shadow" that the Ring was casting on him!

Gollum's case on the other hand seems hopeless. For hundreds of years he was imposed to the influence of the powers of the Ring.
Now... what strength would one need to be so deep into the "shadow" and still "dig up" from the depths of his mind the "good", bring it up, try to hold to it and believe in it and in its power to get redemption ... and all of a sudden this chance being completely lost for being rejected to him?
Think of it!
It's monstruous!
Even if you "transfer" this case not even thinking of Gollum but about real-world people, one can only agree that this is a suffering matching torture of highest level!
He wasn't without hope. Frodo recovered. Bilbo recovered. With time, Smeagol too, would have recovered. He was showing the first fleeting signs within the quote, not showing hopelessness!
But this IS the point! Gollum was deprived of the chance!
In all other cases there WAS a chance and the respective people only had to make THEIR OWN choice - to accept it or to reject it.
In Gollum's case it was completely diffrent.
To him the chance was rejected from out! He was NOT let make his own choice!

Finduilas

11-15-2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf:
Gollums life had been poisened?. He was left alone, he had food to eat (which he liked), he had freedom, he had a place to live undisturbed. He did not suffer, the way in which the ringwriaths suffered for those many years!. They were not left alone. They were in continuous suffering, doing the bidding of their master

Yes, he was ALONE! To be alone when you actually desire to have a friend is a punishment of no measurement! It's a suffering which cannot be replaced by any satisfied hunger or thirst! While the Ringwraiths indeed were NOT alone...THEY were all together in their grief! The grief they accepted by taking the Rings. It was their choice, just as it was Gollum's own choice, but the difference is that Gollum remained contious enough to have his own feelings (his "love" towards Frodo) which, unfortunately, strenghtened his sufferings. The Wraiths were under a "viel" set upon them by their Master. They only desired the One but not for themselves but for their Master...it is a grief but their poisoned mind was not capable of understanding it because it had long ago passed away...

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf:
well, death is a very great suffering

As Ancient wise people said (and we continue to believe it):
Death is sometimes a salvation, one better than life itself!
Imagine your life in everyday grief, doubt and hatred. A life of no love but one-towards the object which is slowly killing you. Is it a life...or is this what is called Hell? Hell on Middle-earth... Gollum was dependant but again not death and contious enough to realize what life he was leading. In other words, he could see himself falling down before the One and yet he could not make himself stand up. That's a suffering.A suffering with no salvation but Death. And soon death becomes a thought, the thought becomes a dream, the dream becomes a desire, the desire-an aim! Death was his salvation and not only his!

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf:
How can you claim that he suffered greatly, due to an object which he both loved and hated. His suffering, due to something he loved, is something not alltogather unbearable. It is the reason he could not suffer like that of those who lost their souls.

It is most painful and weary to love and hate something (or someone...) at the same time! You love it and yet its disastrous nature makes you hate it for it enslaves you. But again it is the one thing that keeps you alive, it is the one thing you live for, the one thing you deeply love...and hate! It is your Life, for it makes you go on, and yet it is your Death, for it makes you desire Death as salvation! It gives you wings and it brakes them. But whatever it makes you do or feel you continue to love it...Isn't that painful?

As Lhun said:
"love" and "hate" it at the same time !!!! That's the hardest punishment one's mind can be put onto !!!!

Gil-Galad

11-15-2003, 02:52 PM

posted by Omnipotent_elf

Gollums life had been poisened?. He was left alone, he had food to eat (which he liked), he had freedom, he had a place to live undisturbed.
So you think he liked the place where he lived?
I don't think so.You probably have missed this quote:

Also they reminded him of days when he had been less lonely and sneaky and nasty, and that put him out of temper.
If he was happy with his place in the Misty Montains,why every recollection of the past,of the time when he had lived near the River,made him angry?If he was happy with his place(the lake)he wouldn't be put out of temper everytime he remembered about the past!!!!This is the simplest logic!!!!!
And something else,did he go to the Misty Montains because he wanted to?No!He was forced.The other Hobbits changed their attitude towards him,he became needless and everybody tried not meet him.
Let me ask you something.Would you stay somewhere where nobody wants you,where everybody dislikes you?!I doubt you will stay!!
Smeagol had to leave his place due to the attitude of the others,and he had nowhere to go.Thus he went in the MM,where nobody can find him and hurt him.Smeagol did not have a choice.

Very good said my dear Lhun,
"love" and "hate" it at the same time !!!! That's the hardest punishment one's mind can be put onto !!!!
Gollum loved the Ring as well everybody who possessed it (Frodo,Bilbo,Isildur),nobody could resist the One.Everyone was obsessed by it soon or late.
Gollum also hated it because he knew,he could not ever escape from it.Gollum hated the ring because it caused him all that suffering.
Did Gollum had to live in MM because of is own will.No,the Ring changed him and with that the other's attitude towards him changed too.
Was he tortured by Sauron because of something else,not because he had had the Ring?
Just think of all the suffering which The Ring caused to him.
How could Gollum not hate the ONE?

And I cannot understand why you continue stating that the Ringwraiths suffered more?They chose their destiny!!They were leaded by greed,desire for power and glory,thus they accepted Sauron's offer.

posted by Omnipotent_elf
Three rings for the elven-kings under the sky
seven for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone
Nine for mortal men doomed to die
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the land of mordor where the shadows lie
One rind to rule them all, one ring to find them
one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
in the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie]

I would like to use this quote,thank you for showing to me something really important,something really logical.
:rolleyes: ;)
The Ringwraiths received the Nine Rings of Power.And they became servants of Sauron.If we accept that your words are true,that they suffered(I already showed that they were leaded by greed and desire for glory and might.And btw Lhun showed that they did not have anything in mind ,they did not want to change),they suffered because of the burdeon of the Nine Rings.
And now,The One Ring,Smeagol had to carry the burdeon of the One.A small and weak creature had to carry it.But which burdeon was bigger?
Which Ring was greater?The One Ring!!A small and weak creature had to carry the burdeon of the greatest evil of II and III ages and the Ringwraiths,strong and noble men,had to carry the burdeon of the rings which were actually the powerless ones(the three Elven were more powerful,as well as the Dwarven ones).
Let's compare them now?!Who suffered more(if we can say that the Wraiths suffered)?!
Answer=Gollum

Finduilas

11-15-2003, 07:34 PM

Let me add some contribution and back up to the point our team made - that death is not the ultimate suffering.

Originally posted by Omnipent_elf:
Death is the ultimate sacrifice, thus the ultimate suffering, the ultimate loss. Tolkien represents this by the fact that the elves ultimate sacrifce was death. In ME, the unlitmae suffering was death!

Now:

From the Letters, Letter to C. Ouboter, 208:
Though it is only in reading the work myself (with criticism in mind) that I become aware of the dominance of the theme of Death. (Not that there is any original "message" in that:most of human art & thoughts is similarly preoccupied.) But certainly Death is not an Enemy! I said, or meant to say, that the "message" was the hideous peril of confusing true "immortality" with limitless serial longevity. Freedom from Time, and clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy and one of the chief causes of human disaster. Compare the death of Aragorn with a Wringwraith. The Elves call "death" the Gift of God (to Men). Their temptation is different : towards a faineant melancholy, burdened with Memory, leading to an attempt to halt Time.

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf:
icluding the ringwraiths?

Yes, including the Ringwraiths for they had no physical strenght and could not attack with violence, which I think is enough for a reason for a repentance since EVERY creature deserves one. But let's quote Tolkien:

From the Letters, Letter to Mrs. Eileen Elgar, 246:
I do not think they [the Ringwraiths] could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.

omnipotent_elf

11-16-2003, 01:11 AM

And our friends did so! They have obviously decided that the greatest martirs were the ringwraiths!

but i hid it soo well:rolleyes:

It's one thing to extract the essence of a statement and quite a different thing to extract one part of it and "fit" it to suit a statement of a different meaning, my friend!

I apologise if i did, for it was not my intention.

Now, onto the debate

I challenge you : find an aspect of Gollum's suffering, and tell me the ringwraiths haven't also suffered to an equal, or greater level. (evidence should be enough as a proof)

Ok - back to the ringwraiths. I mean, they did suffer for a lot longer after all, and never had any CHANCE of retribution. Don't say that the never showed any signs of wanting retribution, because they could not controll their wills.

I do not think they [the Ringwraiths] could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.

Lets see: Sauron - evil. He had priamary controll of the ringwraiths wills. he ensured that they could never want retribution. He used his influence over their wills to influence their thought process to such a level that they suffered greatly. They HAD to do his bidding, no choice in it. Is that fun for you. To do the evil bidding of a person, with no choice and not ever a chance of redemption. With sauron controlling their wills, they never had a chance of retribution (remeber, Sauron = Evil guy)

So you think he liked the place where he lived?

No. I did not. But i don't think he was suffering in it. Indeed, he led a life within it, which did not include any excessive suffering, for well over 400 years.

Now, the ringwraiths. For those 440 years, they had to suffer doing the will of their master. They were compelled to do his wishes, with no questions asked. That is torture, suffering if you will,

Which Ring was greater?The One Ring!!A small and weak creature had to carry the burdeon of the greatest evil of II and III ages and the Ringwraiths,strong and noble men,had to carry the burdeon of the rings which were actually the powerless ones(the three Elven were more powerful,as well as the Dwarven ones). Let's compare them now?!Who suffered more(if we can say that the Wraiths suffered)?!

first of all, i would like to ask weather you consider loos of freedom, thought, mind, etc is a suffering. I know to me it would have been. Loss of Freedom and humanity in particular, would be an unbearable suffering.....but hey, thats just me ;)

The ringwraiths, as you said, were strong and powerfull men. So their loss of fredom would have been a greater suffering, then for example,that of gollum, who never had such a great loss. Indeed, this led to a greater suffering in that of the ringwraiths.

If he was happy with his place in the Misty Montains,why every recollection of the past,of the time when he had lived near the River,made him angry?If he was happy with his place(the lake)he wouldn't be put out of temper everytime he remembered about the past!!!!This is the simplest logic!!!!!

but gollum is an intriguing character - you quoted tolkien on saying that :p. There is NO simple logic surrounding Gollum. If there was, there is no way he could have turned into the intriguing character he was.

But, gollum only grew angry once he remembered. The memories made him anger. He was happy, untill he had to remeber. Ok - that was a bit repetitive. But what need did he have to remeber. None. He found solitude in the misty mountains, due to the fact he DIDN'T have to remember. That equal's happiness, untill such time as he remebered.We all have things we regret doing. Some make us angry. That was a case of gollum feeling the same way.

Yes, he was ALONE! To be alone when you actually desire to have a friend is a punishment of no measurement! It's a suffering which cannot be replaced by any satisfied hunger or thirst! While the Ringwraiths indeed were NOT alone...THEY were all together in their grief! The grief they accepted by taking the Rings. It was their choice, just as it was Gollum's own choice, but the difference is that Gollum remained contious enough to have his own feelings (his "love" towards Frodo) which, unfortunately, strenghtened his sufferings. The Wraiths were under a "viel" set upon them by their Master. They only desired the One but not for themselves but for their Master...it is a grief but their poisoned mind was not capable of understanding it because it had long ago passed away...

Yes, so a whole bunch of sufferers is greater then one suffering?. SUrely, to see a bunch of others in exactly the same state as yourself isn't insiring, especially with the fate the ringwraiths endured.
And on this matter - what a suffering to have a GREAT desire for something, only not for youself. That is torure. You really want something, but you will never be gratified by getting it. Getting it, will also mean great suffering for others, but you have no choice, you have been implanted with this desire.

And I cannot understand why you continue stating that the Ringwraiths suffered more?They chose their destiny!!They were leaded by greed,desire for power and glory,thus they accepted Sauron's offer.

tell me then, why did gollum follow the fellowship through moria, right untill Mt doom?. It musn't have been for any of the reasons why the ringwraiths took the ring :rolleyes:

But this IS the point! Gollum was deprived of the chance!

Gollum was though!
after the ring went from his grasp he could have just left it alone, and continued to live in the misty mountains!
and the ringwraiths weren't?
or do you not believe that sauron would control their wills so they obeyed his will completely?

Scatha

11-16-2003, 01:34 AM

Also, may I remind all of you that the ringwraiths were in no way ever a key part of the book, where gollum's character was deepened out by Tolkien, for it's greater part in it.

and adding to that:
Gollum also got angry over having to remember his past, when he did not have the ring yet, when he played the riddle game with Bilbo.

Gandalf even stated:
Smeagol was once a different person, much like a hobbit.

So he could have resisted the ring more, but instead he gave in to it, basing his life around the lie that it was his birthday present, while in fact he had killed to get it. Who suffered more in that case, Smeagol or Deagol's family?

Gil-Galad

11-16-2003, 03:08 AM

posted by omnipotent_elf

No. I did not. But i don't think he was suffering in it. Indeed, he led a life within it, which did not include any excessive suffering, for well over 400 years.
You probably mean physical suffering.But think about the psychical one he had.440 years he had to live alone(he was a hobbit who liked contacts) together with the Ring.And he had no choice.
you probabl did not understand my point.Smeagol DID NOT want to leave his place near the river.But the Ring made him do it.It changed him and the others' attitude towards him changed too.So Smeagol had to leave his place,though he did not want.You claim he did not suffer?!Then why the recollection of the past made him angry?
I'll tell you why,because he left the place he loved and he had to live 440 years alone with the thing he loved but with the thing he hated too.

Now, the ringwraiths. For those 440 years, they had to suffer doing the will of their master. They were compelled to do his wishes, with no questions asked.
Did they suffer?First asked yourself why they accepted the Rings?Because of their greed,because of their desire to rule over vast lands,because the power they wanted to possess.Even because of immortality(don't forget that men's greatest dream is immortality)
And they all received what they desired for.Power-there was nobody who could oppose them,they reached immortality,they had invincibility.They had what they wanted.Did they suffer?I don't think Tolkien states anywhere that they suffered.

first of all, i would like to ask weather you consider loos of freedom, thought, mind, etc is a suffering.
Freedom?Ask yourself did Gollum had a freedom?NO!The Ring possessed him.The One Ring possessed him,but Smeagol did not want it.The problem was that he was not able to resist it,nobody was able to resist it.He DID TRY,but he was too weak.
At the same time the Ringwraiths NEVER TRIED to resist their Rings.That is the point.How could they suffer from something when they never try to escape from it,when they never tried to oppose it?.Gollum tried,but he was too weak and he could not escape from the ONE.That was his tragedy,he knew he had no choice,he would not ever escape from it,he knew he was doomed,he knew there was no hope for him

tell me then, why did gollum follow the fellowship through moria, right untill Mt doom?. It musn't have been for any of the reasons why the ringwraiths took the ring First of all he met them in Moria by luck.It was the destiny,which made him meet them.There Smeagol heard the call of the Ring,like the first time when Deagol found the One.
He followed them because of the same reason which could explain why he did not die,when he lost the ONE.The Ring did not want to leave him yet.He followed the Ring not because he was leaded by greed or desire for glory and might(which made the Ringwraiths take the Rings),but because he was too weak to oppose it

posted by Scatha:
So he could have resisted the ring more, but instead he gave in to it,
He TRIED to resist the ring but he was too weak to oppose the one.Take for example Frodo,you see what happens with him for one year of posssessing the One Ring.Think of Gollum 440->years.

Gollum also got angry over having to remember his past, when he did not have the ring yet, when he played the riddle game with Bilbo.
At the moment the Ring was not with him,but it was with him 440 years before that moment.440 years he remembered his past,his place near the river.440 years he remembered the time when he did not carry that burdeon.It was the Ring which caused that suffering!!!

Who suffered more in that case, Smeagol or Deagol's family?
Come on!You've gotta be kidding?!!!You compare the suffer of Deagol's family with Smeagol's one?
OK,they suffered for some time year,2,5,10 ,30 years,till their dead,and finally they had their peace when they died.
And Gollum?440 years he carried the burdeon of the One Ring,the greatest evil of II and III age!!!!And he even was not given the chance to die in peace when he lost it!!!!!Isn't this a greater suffering?!!!

Lhunithiliel

11-16-2003, 09:10 AM

Scatha:
Also, may I remind all of you that the ringwraiths were in no way ever a key part of the book, where gollum's character was deepened out by Tolkien, for it's greater part in it.
Thank you graciously for reminding it to us!
But then, please have in mind that:
1/ there is no such thing as one single central character in Tolkien's works
2/ whether the wraiths were or were not key-characters has nothing to do with the question of the present debate.

Gollum also got angry over having to remember his past, when he did not have the ring yet, when he played the riddle game with Bilbo.
??????????????
"Yet"???
Omni:I challenge you : find an aspect of Gollum's suffering, and tell me the ringwraiths haven't also suffered to an equal, or greater level. (evidence should be enough as a proof).
Now, I see you guys enjoy playing ball (as much as kicking butts), but we here have a debate to deal with, not a game.
It was us (or more exactly I ) who suggested to you to provide solid evidence for your argiuments that the ringwraiths suffered more than Gollum.
You have provided none so far but some assumptions, fantasies...whatever. No solid proof!
As for Gollum, you may read a lot on this matter in the ROTK. I don't think it necessary to quote whole chapters! But Gollum's tragedy is written! The wraith's "tragedy" is NOT!

An example: No matter how much I would've liked Tolkien to have written more about what was going on in the mind of Feanor, he did not. So, all I can do is to fantasize!
The same is with the ringwraiths!

As I said earlier: Show us quotes from the book proving your fantasies about their mental "torture" :eek: .... which in fact never existed as far as the story tells us!

Finduilas

11-16-2003, 10:00 AM

Indeed there is no proof that the Wringraiths suffered, not one provided by Tokien in a clear written form. However, he did provide ones for Gollum.
The drafting of the chapter "The Taming of Smeagol" says:

Deserve it! I daresay he did/does, said Gandalf. many that live do deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not eager to deal out death even in the name of justice. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I do not much hope that Gollum can be cured
( From HOME, Volume VIII)

he after that rewrites the chapter into a slightly different texts:

Deserve it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. Maybe the Enemy will get him. Maybenot. Even Gollum may do some good, willy nilly, before the end.

It is essential to notice that Tolkien himself intended to "doom" Gollum in his work, by saying what he thought about the character, but later dared not to do it, but allowed the reader to decide and assume. For if Gollum cannot be cured it turns out that he's actually predetermined to suuffer...as he had been suffering 440 years. Now that's a torture!

Lhunithiliel

11-16-2003, 10:09 AM

Letter 181:
'Lead us not into temptation &c' is the harder and the less often considered petition. The view, in the terms of my story, is that though every event or situation has (at least) two aspects: the history and development of the individual (it is something out of which he can get good, ultimate good, for himself, or fail to do so), and the history of the world (which depends on his action for its own sake) – still there are abnormal situations in which one may be placed. 'Sacrificial' situations, I should call them: sc. positions in which the 'good' of the world depends on the behaviour of an individual in circumstances which demand of him suffering and endurance far beyond the normal – even, it may happen (or seem, humanly speaking), demand a strength of body and mind which he does not possess: he is in a sense doomed to failure, doomed to fall to temptation or be broken by pressure against his 'will': that is against any choice he could make or would make unfettered, not under the duress.
Did any of the Ringwraiths ever had even the slightest thought of a sacrifice? Hardly ever!!!
However Gollum found in him the strength to do it.

omnipotent_elf

11-16-2003, 11:10 AM

Even Gollum may do some good, willy nilly, before the end

thankyou for showing this
now - gollum may do some good before then end. I sense retribution, if small, but still retribution

thus, as i have been arguing all along : Gollum had the chance to gain retribution. AH HA - There was still hope.
The ringwraiths did not. Those poor ringwraiths were doomed. Did tolkien EVER right in his works that gollum was doomed - NO. He may of originally intended to, but that did not eventuate

oh, and if you want a quote to show that the ringwraiths suffered, i thought

Nine for mortal men doomed to die would suffice, but hmm...i will search for more quotes

hmm - I will give you quotes depicting the suffering the ringwraiths cause, then in a later post (we must be fair, i need some time now that I am aware quotes are demanded :D) I will show you the suffering they recieve due to Saurun. Will that suffice?

Ok : ringwraiths causing suffering

from strider, Fellowship of the rings
'I am afraid it is true' said Merry " though I don't know what I said: i had an ugly dream, which i cant remeber. I went to pieces. I don't know what came over me."
"i do" said Strider. "The Black Breath"

Ok, - the black breath caused suffering in the heart of Merry! Now, I'll let you guess the creature responsible.

need i say more?
ok, yes i do...

Now Ringwraiths own suffering can be reflected by

from strider, Fellowship of the rings
"what will happen?" said merry. "will they attack the inn?"
"no, I think not". Said Strider. "they are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and lonellinees they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while the league of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to evil work: Ferny and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry aat West-gate on Moday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.

forgive me if i'm wrong, but you have argued thus far that Gollum's suffering was due to his past, and the fact that this reduced to isolation. Hey - look at the quote. So do the ringwraiths. Now thats a coincidence : rolleyes: ;) :D

Hmm.... ringwraiths are strongest in dark and loneliness....hummm......i think ringwraiths also suffer to this, and this was gollums worst suffering.......gollum and ringwraiths suffer the same, yet ringwraiths are doomed....gollum, despite originally being intended to, is not doomed....hmmm....(sorry, i fell entish this eveening)....hummm....hmmmm.....gollums suffering greater then that of the ringwriaths- I think not. The other way round....hummm...on the evidence provide...YES.

(anyone like the ent acting preformance *is hit by a boot*...ok....i'll give up on it)

The ringwraiths are the embodiement of suffering. The cause, and dare i say it, suffer the slings of suffering :D

However,in light of this, i can safely say that

It is essential to notice that Tolkien himself intended to "doom" Gollum in his work, by saying what he thought about the character, but later dared not to do it, but allowed the reader to decide and assume. For if Gollum cannot be cured it turns out that he's actually predetermined to suuffer...as he had been suffering 440 years. Now that's a torture!

good - ringwraiths were 9 mortal men, doomed to die. However, they never did. Ha- they SUFFERED (now i'm over that little sadistic crave). This may be a coincidence, but guess what, the reader had no assumption in this one. We have no choice except accept the fact that these ringbearers were doomed, and suffered due to it - do i need to say what they have lost, again?

If it is up to the readers interpretation (for the reader to decide and assume), then is it fair for me to say that i don't think that gollum's very "suffering", may not be anywhere near the level that you think? Hypothetically, he could have suffered little, having merely been a selfish being.
also, by Tolkien intending to doom gollum, but deciding against it, daring not to, it kinda lends to the idea that gollum in the end was not doomed, merely unlucky....

but, you attempt to counteract this by claiming

he is in a sense doomed to failure, doomed to fall to temptation or be broken by pressure against his 'will': that is against any choice he could make or would make unfettered, not under the duress.

i hope i havent taken this out of context...

but that quote is not meant to be taken literally. Nine men doomed to die is! Gollum's 'dooming' - is not referred to in tolkiens works, and is but one interpretation, by a reader.If so, please find me a quote! Even if it is true, gollum's dooming is only in a sense, while the ringwraiths suffer far greater, in a whole context.

First asked yourself why they accepted the Rings?

ask yourself- why and how did gollum obtain the ring! It was FOR THE SAME REASONS - GREED, DESIRE.

You probably mean physical suffering

good, cause i don't think we descriminate over what type of suffering one endures. I see you classify suffering into two froms : Physical and Pschological. Gollum, i THINK i can say, did not suffer (for the majority of his life) physically. Ringwriaths did. They lost their form, and as a result were forced to stay in darkness. Now i also think that i have proven that Ringwraiths also suffered to an equal extent than gollum Pshchologiacally, for a MUCH longer period of time..

Gil-Galad

11-16-2003, 02:25 PM

I don't know why,but I have the strange feeling that you guys do not read or do not try to understand my posts.Anyway.
Now I've gotta say things which I already said,but I'll be a good boy today and I will do it ;) :p

posted by omnipotent_elf

oh, and if you want a quote to show that the ringwraiths suffered, i thought
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nine for mortal men doomed to die
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what's the suffering in their case?I think you did not understand my previous post.Men's biggest dream was immortality,throughout their entire lives they were striving for reaching immortality(that leaded to the Fall of Numenor as you probably know).The Nine Kings of Men who accepted the Rings were descendents of the Numenorians and they too had that dream of immortality.Actually that was one of the resons for them to take the Rings.They DID NOT have in mind being immortal,that was the thing they were striving for for years!!!And Sauron gave it to them.
Acttually what does this quote prove?!Nothing,just they were doomed to die.

forgive me if i'm wrong, but you have argued thus far that Gollum's suffering was due to his past, and the fact that this reduced to isolation. Hey - look at the quote. So do the ringwraiths. Now thats a coincidence
What kind of isolation?I don't see any isolation.440 years Gollum was completely alone!!!Without wanting it.
At the same time The Ringwraiths were not "lonely",they had Sauron,they had all his armies(don't forget that the Witch King leaded Sauron's armies)they had servants and spies everywhere.They had everything they wanted.Power,invincibility,immortality(they desired power and glory and they received it!The Witch King leaded the biggest army ever,the army of all evil creatures,isnt' that the might all Nine Kings wanted?)
How could anyone suffer when he had everything he wanted,everything he desired ??!!!

good - ringwraiths were 9 mortal men, doomed to die. However, they never did. Ha- they SUFFERED

I think I said some lines above,but I will repeat in case you have understood what I wrote.
Men's greatest dream was immortality.That was the thing they were striving for!!And one of the reasons for the Nine Kings of Men to accept the Rings and Sauron's offer is the immortality.They received the thing which every man in Middle-earth,in Numenore dreamed of -immortality .
I think that was clear enough ;) :p

Nine for mortal men doomed to die
I think also that you cannot understand the contextual meaning of these Tolkien words.
I'll clarify it for you (I can't believe I'm such a good King today ;) )!Man were doomed to die,that was the design of Eru,the One,a design which even the Eldar and the Valar could not understand.But.Men did not want to die.For them,especially with the coming of the Shadow in Numenore,death was equal to suffering(a result of Melkor's lies and the seeds of evil he spread in their hearts in the beginning of the their days).That was what Tolkien what to underline to put his stress on:Men,though all their attempts to reach immortality,were and would be mortal-forever.
Physical suffering?

Physical and Pschological. Gollum, i THINK i can say, did not suffer (for the majority of his life) physically. Ringwriaths did.
Really?How did they suffer?Physically?They were Wraiths,invinsible!!!!!They could not suffer physically!!!!!How could a wraith,a spirit suffer physically??!I don't get it.
And I will mention one more thing,to prove you that Gollum suffered physically more than the Wraiths(because they did not suffer physcially,actually).
What would you say about the time spent in Mordor and all the torments he had to suffer.Sauron's torments were "the finest ones" at that time!!!!!!!!:p

Omnioptent_elf,you try to prove your points but at the same time we are still waiting for a proof,a quote or something like this,which will prove that Gollum was not the one who suffered more.At the same time Lhun did a great job posting some interesting letters where even Pr.Tolkien stated our side!!!!!

Finduilas

11-16-2003, 02:53 PM

Ok, let's make it your way:

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf:
first, i would like to state what suffering means[...]

From the Longman Dictionary of English Language and Culture:
retribution - (a) severe deserved punishment
repentance - being sorry for wrongdoing

And you say that you sense retribution? Now Gollum indeed made good in the end but, come on, you have read LotR!!! ;)
It was an accident, let's call it. He didn't mean to destroy It. He merely slipped and received no satisfaction of the good done, he didn't even realize it! Imagine that the Ringwraiths had come earlier and they took the One from Frodo but not Gollum. Imagine that Frodo, mad at them because of the One, tried to oppose them and accidently they slipped...and fell into Mount Doom. I actually mean one of them, the one who took the Ring, not all of them. :)
But the point is that they would have done good to ME, even though they didn't want and intend to do it. But if they did so, ask yourself would they be happy? Would they feel relieved? Would they not suffer?
I may disagree with you, but I must say NO! They would even suffer more, because the One was their Master and they were dependent ! Just as Gollum was dependant by the One, It gave him his life and it could only take it away from him. Gollum loved and hated the One! Would YOU suffer if the one thing you love THE MOST dies? Would you? Yes, indeed you would! And if you accidently die with it you wouldn't be able to feel the grief,yes, but you wouldn't even feel relief too!
And so was with the Ringwraiths. The One was destroyed and so were they! Their life is over, and the suffering is over! They are at peace!
Therefore, I claim that we can easily neglect this final tragedy (and victory! ) because it stops the suffering of both Gollum and the Ringwraiths! We should try to trace their suffering troughout their lives.

thus, as i have been arguing all along : Gollum had the chance to gain retribution. AH HA - There was still hope.
The ringwraiths did not.

No, he didn't have the chance! Once more, I remember you that it was an accident, not a conscious act! If the Ringwraiths had been there instead of Gollum and done the same it wouldn't have been retribution either!

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf:
This may be a coincidence, but guess what, the reader had no assumption in this one. We have no choice except accept the fact that these ringbearers were doomed, and suffered due to it - do i need to say what they have lost, again?

If it is up to the readers interpretation (for the reader to decide and assume), then is it fair for me to say that i don't think that gollum's very "suffering", may not be anywhere near the level that you think? Hypothetically, he could have suffered little, having merely been a selfish being.
also, by Tolkien intending to doom gollum, but deciding against it, daring not to, it kinda lends to the idea that gollum in the end was not doomed, merely unlucky....

The reader has a choice! We accept the facts but understand them by our own vision and opinion of the book. However, if Tolkien himself had stated something we must accept it! After all, the author knows best! If he thinks that something is essentially important to the book he states it! If it can be left to interpretation he simply allows us to interpret!
However, I think you have misunderstood my post, let me repeat it and underline the essential parts which carry the meaning:

It is essential to notice that Tolkien himself intended to "doom" Gollum in his work, by saying what he thought about the character, but later dared not to do it, but allowed the reader to decide and assume. For if Gollum cannot be cured it turns out that he's actually predetermined to suuffer...as he had been suffering 440 years. Now that's a torture!

And you say that we have to accept the fact that Ringwraiths were suffering when Tolkien says that Gollum was the one who could not be cured! And what's more, you can't say that he suffered little because he didn't! He had to go through tortures that nobody else had been through(we have already clearly stated them)!
If you want to interpret, as you have the full right to do so, please at least interpret parts of the book for which Tolkien has not been specific!

Lhunithiliel

11-16-2003, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Finduilas
Therefore, I claim that we can easily neglect this final tragedy (and victory! ) because it stops the suffering of both Gollum and the Ringwraiths! We should try to trace their suffering troughout their lives.

And you say that we have to accept the fact that Ringwraiths were suffering when Tolkien says that Gollum was the one who could not be cured! And what's more, you can't say that he suffered little because he didn't! He had to go through tortures that nobody else had been through(we have already clearly stated them)!
If you want to interpret, as you have the full right to do so, please at least interpret parts of the book for which Tolkien has not been specific!
And to those and many more arguments of our Team (What a Team!!!!!! :) ) I am adding some more facts, coming however NOT from my imagination, my assumptions, my interpreatations ..... etc.... BUT from the books DIRECTLY!
UT: "Of the Journey of the Black Riders":(after Gollum had been put to physical torture by Sauron himself :
Then he became filled with a hatred of Sauron even greater than his terror, seeing in him truly his greatest enemy and rival. Thus it was that he dared to pretend that he believed that the land the Halflings was near to the .places where he had once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden.
Remarkable!
and more:
What then happened to Gollum cannot of course be known for certain. He was peculiarly fitted to survive in such straits, though at cost of great misery; but he was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have he could only get by thieving dangerously.
So much as for the "happy" and "satisfied with food and state" Gollum in Moria.

And as we have been made to compare the Ringwraiths to Gollum in their sufferings, let's not forget a "minor" detail:

The Ringwraiths were ones of those all who were after Gollum, chasing him all over ME! They needed him to lead them to the Shire but he had escaped from the eye of their Master and for them it was then a primary task to find him.
He, on the other hand, had to hide from from everybody - from Sauron, from the Wraiths, from the Elves, from gandalf, from the Rangers, from the orcs.... Prity "peaceful" life!
And what was he to do so that his enemies could not find him? Hide. Where? In the dead Marshes. Wow! What a lovely place to dwell!

The most perilous thing however that Gollum had done was that he fooled Sauron!!!! (see above quotes)
While the Ringwraiths were:
... by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master...
Absolute devotion and loyalty to Sauron!

Let me tell you sth. Having chosen "wraith" as my forum sub-name is not accidentally. But one of the reasons was that I have always been very interested in these creatures. And I have read a lot about them .... yet NOT in one single place I have been able to find ANY evidence of their sufferings WHATSOEVER! These creatures might have indeed suffered. Who knows! I may only fantasize and speculate... But NO evidence of this I have found so far ANYWHERE!

So, I can't see what can our opponents bring as a proof to their assumptions that the Ringwraiths suffered!

Scatha

11-17-2003, 12:11 AM

The reader has a choice! We accept the facts but understand them by our own vision and opinion of the book. However, if Tolkien himself had stated something we must accept it! After all, the author knows best!

Well, Findi, try and explain that to the one that wrote the bible, as his work is interpreted differently throughout the entire world.
A book and even it's author, is not void of reader interpretation, no matter what the writer of the work states.

So what's the suffering in their case?I think you did not understand my previous post.Men's biggest dream was immortality,throughout their entire lives they were striving for reaching immortality(that leaded to the Fall of Numenor as you probably know).The Nine Kings of Men who accepted the Rings were descendents of the Numenorians and they too had that dream of immortality.Actually that was one of the resons for them to take the Rings.They DID NOT have in mind being immortal,that was the thing they were striving for for years!!!And Sauron gave it to them.

The nine kings of old strived for immortal life. What Sauron gave them was not life, yet not death either. They had to walk the road in between the two, enslaved by the rings and Sauron's will. Now correct me if I am wrong, but "enslaved" is being ordered to do things that you would not under normal circumstance, acting beyond your own will and therefor suffering. Not physically perhaps, but mentally for sure.

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Then he became filled with a hatred of Sauron even greater than his terror, seeing in him truly his greatest enemy and rival. Thus it was that he dared to pretend that he believed that the land the Halflings was near to the .places where he had once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden.
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Nice quote, Lhun, but let me enlighten you a l