Judgement, Round 9: The Guild of Scholars v The Guild of Eruhini

[Gothmog]

Here is the thread for the judgement of the deabte between The Guild of Scholars v The Guild of Eruhini to be found Here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13649)

The judges for this are

Periaur - Snaga1
Ost-in-Edhil - Gothmog
Outcasts - The-Elf-Herself
Tolkienologists - Lhunithiliel
Neutral - ILLOTRTM

I am sorry I could not get this up quicker.

[Inderjit S]

I'd just like to thank Eruhini for a great debate.

I'd also like to wonder what it would take to bribe the judges? A pack of Jelly beans? Some cyanide? Or both?

[Snaga]

The Scholars say that Treebeard was right because

1. Saruman died a short while after his release.
2. He was motivated by pity
3. The evil he caused in the Shire in was good because it enable them to be defeated. :confused:
4. He wasn't very strong any more, and could no longer be a menace.
5. He still had power while in Orthanc
6. If he'd stayed locked up, he would have later escaped:confused:
7. Damage done to Shire trees didn't matter because trees get chopped down all over the place.:confused:
8. Keeping him in Isengard for years was a bad option because those able to resist his voice were leaving ME, and eventually he would have arisen as a great power.

The Eruhini say that Treebeard was wrong because:

1. Saruman still had the power of his voice.
2. Treebeard was deceived and persuaded.
3. Saruman would be a growing force for evil once freed.
4. Saruman's people destroyed many trees in the Shire. [my comment... and hobbits;) ]
5. Gandalf could have dealt with Saruman upon his return to Orthanc.
6. There would have been less suffering if Saruman hadn't reached the Shire.
7. Saruman's demise was luck, rather than a foreseen consequence of Treebeard's choice.
8. Treebeard was motivated by pity, but his action wasn't just.
9. He should have waited for Gandalf's return, and consulted others before making his choice.
10. Saruman had lost his glory and could not gather new followers.:confused:
11. While Saruman was trapped in Orthanc he was not a threat.

An interesting debate with some strangely contradictory posts on both side. First the Scholars got all messed up trying to say that Saruman was both not a threat (so he could go free) but also he couldnt stay in Orthanc for long, because he later would be a threat. Then, amusingly, the Eruhini decided to dispute BOTH elements of that!:D

Nevertheless I have to conclude that the Eruhini are right that Treebeard should have waited for Gandalf's return. I also have to agree that the same outcome could have been achieved with less pain for the Shire. And finally, the benefit of Saruman's death was not intended by Treebeard. These are all points not dealt with adequately by the Scholars, who I am afraid should have spent less time on the differences between pity and justice, and on whether you can shout 800 meters, and rather more on raising the attitude of Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond when they caught up with Saruman later. A rather crucial element missed by you. I don't know if the Eruhini remembered it, but in their shoes I wouldnt have been anxious to raise it either. The Scholars really should have.

Therefore I give my vote to the Eruhini. Congratulations: that was the best team effort I have seen from you guys yet. (And it was nice that Beth got to have a break too! She deserved it!:) )

[ILLOTRTM]

Oh boy... as much as I love judging these debates, I hate the way I ALWAYS end up looking like an idiot when trying to explain my reasoning when placed next to a vote like Snaga's....

Well anyways, let's get to it. Right off the bat I want to say that this was an excellent debate. I enjoyed it very much.
The Eruhini definitely had a lot of defenses that caught my attention, and I noticed that they had an excellent way of making me look at things in a different light.

Correct, inderjit. Justice is interpreted by each in a different fashion. Pity however, is greatly influenced by circumstance, whether the idea that sprouted it, may nontheless be wrong.

This caught my eye. Up until that point there had been quite a bit of talk to justice, and I had been previously swayed by the talk of justice being differently interpreted. However, when the fact was brought up that pity was quite a different thing, and the way it was said, I immediately began to question some of my views.

So far as the book tells us, Saruman's demise was one of pure luck, so if you look at it like that, Treebeard's choice was wrong.

Once again, a point that one might think is obvious is brought up, and causes me to once again rethink things in a new light.

However, even though I found the Eruhini's way of showing you all the different ways of looking at the situations and use of words persuasive, I still found myself with some unanswered questions at the ends of some of there posts. This did not occur when I read most of the arguments from the Scholars. I noticed that they had a great defense and offense. I did happen to find that some of their posts were somewhat contradictory, but that seemed to be overpowered by all of the other points brought up.
My apologies for not having a better way of explaining my views, but with that, my vote goes to the Guild of Scholars.

[Lhunithiliel]

You know... When I am asked to judge a debate, I prefer to start reading the debate itself with a "blank" mind. I do not ask the debate question to myself as I might decide one way or another and this would be a prejudice to one or the other team.
So, with such a "blank" mind I entered this debate too.

What did I find?

A short, dinamic debate with all the participants posting arguments directly concerning the question (well, of course I would leave aside the "discussions" on what "impotent" is or whether one could be heard over 800 meters-distance or what material would have Saruman needed for a ladder... ;) ).
Very well done!

Now, the Schollars' main argument to me seemed that Treebeard was right to let Saruman free because of the final result which turned to be a positive one - he died. A very "shaky" argument I'd say! And the Eruhini here did their best to counter it.

- 1

I however very much liked the argument about the Hobbits being "educated" and being given the chance of finally taking the fate of their people and their country into their own hands! A very clever point! I mean... the Schollars persuaded me that if Saruman was not let free and if he hadn't caused the troubles in the Shire, the Hobbits (and I don't mean the 4 heroes only) might have probably never dared to "rise" up to the standards of the new time - a time which gave freedom but also required taking responsibilities! A very good point indeed! And the Eruhini IMO could not counter well this argument.

+1

The Eruhini's main point as I was able to understand, was that Treebeard let Saruman because of being careless; that he should have waited for the counsel of Gandalf or Ellesar. Not very convincing, I'm afraid and the Schollars felt it well and countered it well.

- 1

The Eruhini also said that this happened to be because Saruman had still the power of his "magic" - his voice, which argument the Schollars actually supported :) So, the point is that Saruman in fact persuaded T to let him free, therefore it was a mistake. Good logic! :) The Schollars could do little to counter this argument.

+ 1

Now... What more was there ...?
Ah! The "hot" discussion about whether Sauron was powerful in Orthank, outside Orthank, now or hundreds of years from now...

I honestly liked this discussion!
But.... Let me see... Who said that if Saruman was let free he might have chosen other ways of escape (other than going to the Shire) and eventually might have in time gathered to himsel fthe new allies of the arising evil ?.... The Eruhini! I must admit, this sounded to me very probable. Treebeard should've thought well about the consequences!
Here I was expecting the Schollars to counter this "What if" but still very probable outcome mainly by the issue of Treebeard as being an Ent (was he not the oldest creature on ME? ;) ) had different look and understanding upon the events in general terms. Sth. was said... but obviously not enough ... So I was left persuaded by the Eruhini. Saruman let fee could be a trouble later. So it seems it was a mistake to let him free!

+ 1

Let's now do some mathematics:
(-1)+(+1) = 0

(-1)+(+1) + (+1) = 1

So, you see... taking into consideration the main arguments provided and commented by both teams and the effect they had on my "blank" mind, the result is very close...yet

The Eruhini win this debate based on my "mathematics".
(I hate judging! :( )

I just want to say:

Guys, you were all excellent and did your best! It was a pleasure to read your posts!!!!

[omnipotent_elf]

I'd also like to wonder what it would take to bribe the judges? A pack of Jelly beans? Some cyanide? Or both?

i'll double it :p (this IS a joke)

nah, thanks for the debate. I enjoyed it

[Scatha]

*laughs*

I see Indy has got a sense of humor after all. ;)

[Inderjit S]

Well I think that's all the debates I have taken part in I have lost. Arf. (Well we are losing here.) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anyway, I must take my frustrations out by banally psoting quotes from HoME in some thread or another, which will most likely have nothing to do with the actual question itself. Or try and match my record of Warnings Points (18) by doing a posting a hell of a lot of perverse posts.

I think a good way is to start with that Saruman impotency thingy. ;)

And ILLOTRIM that cyanide is on the way to your house as I speak...or type.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Okay, here's my judgement, took me a while to read through all those posts, but it was worth it. :) Very interesting arguments from both sides! Alright, let's hope I can make this clear:

I must admit that after the first bout of arguments I sided with the Scholars. Their arguments about Treebeard's pity moving him to release Saruman correlated nicely with the other shows of pity in LOTR. In addition, the way they portrayed Saruman's part in the Scouring of the Shire and all the good it eventually lead to in the culture of hobbits worked very well. I was nearly sold on the idea...but-

-while the arguments the Eruhini gave on the real menace Saruman still possessed did not seem an adequate rebuttal(since I already knew the outcome of the Scouring of the Shire), this did impact me:

Treebeard could not have foreseen the outcome of Saruman's release, therefor was wrong to let him go.

This made me stop and rethink what was being argued. The debate was over the 'rightness' of his decision to allow Saruman to leave and did not concern the favorable outcome of the decision, however great that may have been. Treebeard did not have the second sight, he was merely moved by pity-and suddenly that seems unacceptable in the light of what could have happened, as the Eruhini were quick to note. I believed they argued this point very well, and although I think they could have emphasized the latter idea more, it was effective enough for me.

Therefore, I cast my vote in favor of the Eruhini.

[Scatha]

Well, Indy, how about we discuss that impotency thingy sometime, huh? ;)


Truely though, with 3-1 in our favor, we have won our first debate. But allow me to congratulate the Scolars on an excellent effort to give us a very hard time. Well done guys. I enjoyed this debate with you and we thank you for that, Scolars.

[baragund]

Whoo-Hoo!!! Three cheers for the Elves and Dwarves!!:)

Great debate, guys. You really hung in there and gave a super team effort. Now aren't you glad you decided to stay in the tournament? ;)

Again, well done and a special tip of the hat to Beth for sticking it out during the lean times.

[Scatha]

Well Baragund, we probably never would have come this far without her. Even though she is not with us in the final rounds of the debates, she is in our hearts and minds.

[Bethelarien]

A huge congratulations to the Eruhini for their (our) first win. Scholars, well done! I was very impressed with the debate.

Although, I must say I find it rather ironic that my team won the first debate I did not participate in. Hmmm.....;)

[Gothmog]

Judgement Round 9 GoS v GoE

I would first and foremost like to congratulate both teams. I had great pleasure in reading through this debate. Though less pleasure in trying to judge it. :)

Both sides argued well and fairly bringing much thought to the problem of this question. Baragund started the debate with a very good post giving the position of the GoS. Omnipotent_elf opened for the GoE with an equally good reply.

The main point of the opening posts that struck me was that of motivation, the GoS stated that the motivation of Treebeard to release Saruman was that of pity. A very good reason and well presented by baragund. However, this was called into question by the GoE and they showed that Treebeard was "Persuaded" or "Deceived", thus casting doubt as to who's decision it actually was, Treebeard's or Saruman's.

There followed some debate on how powerful Saruman was still which Scatha tried valiantly to keep out of the debate but which Inderjit S showed was in fact an important part of the question and therefore needed to be discussed. Both sides agreed that he did have power so it was a question of the harm that Saruman did compared to the Good that came about because of this. A side issue was what would happen if Saruman was kept in Orthanc after Gandalf had left Middle-earth.

Throughout this debate I found that the arguments by both sides were well thought out and very well presented and I wish to congratulate both teams on an excellent debate conducted in a fair and courteous manner. But now to my decision. For much of the debate I found the arguments of both sides to be equally convincing. However, there was one point that was brought up in both of the first posts, that of Treebeard's Motivation. The doubt cast on this by the GoE was not answered conclusively by the GoS.

I vote for the Guild of the Eruhini.

[Gothmog]

So with my vote finally in the result is

Eruhini 4 votes
Scholars 1 vote.

I therefore wish to congratulate the Eruhini for winning this debate :D

[Scatha]

Thanks Gothmog. :D