Judging: Snaga... oops I mean Periaur ;) vs. OiE

[Nóm]

Round 10: Periaur vs. OiE (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=13812)

Judges:

Elfarmari - GoS
Idril - Neutral
Khôr’nagan - Eruhini
Lhunithiliel - GoT
Nóm - GoO/Host

[Snaga]

Hey-y-y-y-y! All of the Periaur team posted!:rolleyes: OK, not as much as me, but I never did learn when to stop talking, as people often have reason to observe.:p

Thanks to OiE for a good, and hard-fought contest. Please forgive me any barbed comments: I sometimes let my rhetoric run away with me but there is nothing personal in it. I learnt a lot from this debate.:)

All Hail the Judges!:D

[Khôr’nagan]

I vote in favour of the Guild of the Periaur in this debate.

After long deliberation, I have indeed decided that I must side with the Periaur in this debate. Although both sides put forth very great (indeed extraordinary) cases, I find that the Periaur put forth the strongest argument (though this was, as I see it, partly do to the facts available for the different sides, i.e. more facts were available to prove the Periaur’s argument). As I am new to debates (both debating and judging), perhaps this is common, but I found it extraordinary almost all of the arguments put forth were founded upon each debater’s own interpretation of the topic in question. Indeed, much of the retorts between teams were based solely upon the difference and accuracy of the interpretations. However, as my interpretation of the topic goes, the arguments of the Periaur prove their cause the most strongly. I found myself unconvinced by the Ost-in-Edhil debaters’ arguments, or more precisely, their lack or clear evidence. Perhaps my being unaccustomed to the manner of debates has played a role in my decision whereas my knowing more would have made it different, but nevertheless, my judgment stands thus: I vote in favour of the Guild of the Periaur in this debate.

I thank you, Nóm, for the opportunity to judge in this debate. It was an interesting experience.

[Snaga]

*brings this back to the surface in the hope that the judges find time to judge*:)

[Celebthôl]

Hahahah!! :D

Nobody is judging any of the debates at the moment, its weird, i think its been a fraught time for most people. . . :(

[Legolam]

The suspense is killing me :D !!!

[Elfarmari]

sorry for the delay, I should be able to finish reading the debate tonight, and should post my judgement tomorrow. . .

[Idril]

Hi Guys & Gals

I'll hopefully be posting my verdict tomorrow.
Suspense is good for the soul :D.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Idril
Suspense is good for the soul :D.

No, chicken soup is good for the soul. ;)

And I'll be posting my verdict...oops, wrong thread. :D

Anyway, nice debate everyone!

[Celebthôl]

Oh thats just mean!! :D

It seems that everyone has given up on debating and judging, right when it got to the crunch! :D

[Lhunithiliel]

First of all I would like to congratulate Nom for offering such a wonderful topic for this debate!

To tell the truth it was extremely difficult to decide to whom to give my vote! It was a tough fight and I would sincerely wish to congratulate both teams for their work!

I was however finally convinced by the OiE.
My vote goes for them.

[Idril]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
No, chicken soup is good for the soul. ;)

Anyway, nice debate everyone!

Hehe, I believe confession is also good for the soul :)

Great debate and so much information!. Again this was not a question I'd pondered at all, so you can be 100% assured that I approached the debate with a completely open mind.

Fab debate and it was a very close thing but I have to give my vote to OiE.

Well done OiE!

[Elfarmari]

Excellent debate, I had a very hard time deciding which side would receive my vote. I have not read the Hobbit in over a year and have never considered this question. The debaters made me change my mind many times throughout the debate! In the end, I feel that the Periaur earned my vote. Here are some of their arguments that convinced me:

originally posted by snaga1Erebor was theirs by right -- they had every justification in seeking to regain it. The defeat of Smaug would remove an evil from Middle Earth, and a threat hanging over many people. If the cause is good, then they deserved any support or assistance that Bilbo is prepared to give them.

In response to Ost-in-Edhil's originally posted by ArveduiThorin and his company
only cared for their own cause, not of the Free Peoples as a whole.
originally posted by NinielIf Bilbo had not helped the Dwarves by giving them all the help they needed, they would have failed. In which case both their goals and Gandalf's would not have been achieved. Gandalf says repeatedly that it was not chance that Bilbo and the dwarves got together. He also emphasizes that without Bilbo's help the Dwarves will fail.

other points:
originally posted by snaga1So it seems that Thorin would still much prefer to tackle Smaug. At the most you can say he thinks ‘burgling' some heirloom might be better than nother, if Smaug cannot be destroyed. And so you are left with a picture of a dispossessed dwarf-lord, who is driven to try to regain the realm of his fore-fathers, and is willing to risk his life and face a mighty dragon, but realizes that this quest may be beyond him.
originally posted by NinielI could agree with you if you said that it was not worth helping if the Dwarves had tried to hang themselves, but going on their quest is something quite something else. It might have been something which was very unlikely to succeed, but still the reasons why they did it were legitimate and deserved to be helped by Gandalf and Bilbo. . . After all Gandalf did not see much hope in Frodo's attempt to destroy the Ring, and still he helped them with any means he could.

Congratulations to all the debaters from both guilds!

[Nóm]

I apologise for the delay, and am sorry I was not replaced. I had read the debate in full twice before I left, and know who won but must look it over again and type up a judgement. It is a high priority for me and I will get to it as soon as I can. I see no reason my judgement will not be up within a couple days.

[Nóm]

Thanks to the teams for putting up a good fight. Thanks also to the judges.

Difficult to decide on a winner in this debate. First of all I want to say that this debate was good for the fact that several people made excellent contributions. That doesn't happen in all debates.

Periaur argued well as far as form, though I find many of their arguements weak. They used a variety of types of reasoning which made their overall case questionable. Though most of their points where reasonable if taken alone and out of context.

OiE made some good points, and I was especially happy with OiE's making me unable to buy into the idea that Bilbo went along because he had deemed the cause worthy. I also find OiE's presentation of Bilbo being suckered into going along, a good one. There wasn't much in the way of solid proof in this debate... and all in all it is such that I am giving my vote on the basis of not who argued best, or who saw the least damage to their case, but rather on which side was more convincing to me. More a judgement of the heart... thing I do not resort to very often in judgements. I vote for OiE.


I can not see as how any payment in treasure, no matter how great, should automaticly render the employer worthy/ deserving. Periaur could not show me why it should.

I was not convinced that Bilbo really deemed the dwarves deserved all that he did. OiE's position felt right when I read it... Bilbo gave much help out of goodness. Periaur couldn't show me why a person's willingness to give something means that the giving was deserved... even in the eyes of the giver.

The trickiest part of the debate, to me, was the matter of the purposes and causes of the dwarves and as that relates to/dances with/stands apart from/whatever Gandalf's purposes and intentions. Periaur could not convince me that dwarves deserved Bilbo's help because of the high cause that Gandalf was thinking of. While they left no doubt in my mind that the dwarves' cause was good... (and this is where they came closest to winning me over) it just doesn't sit well with me ultimately, that this cause made the dwarves deserving of Bilbo's help.



Now to go look at the other judgements... see who won this baby. :D

[Gothmog]

I wish the thank Nom first for such an interesting topic.

Now, my thanks to the judges for their time and effort and to the team of the Periaur I give congratulations and thanks for their hard work which made this one of the most enjoyable debates I have taken part in.

[Celebthôl]

Very well done OiE! :D

Boy! Aulë's gonna be maaaaaaaaaaaaaad! *angelic smile* :D

Good debate guys! Well done on the tournament aswell. :)

[Legolam]

Nom, how could you?! :mad: Did Thol's beautiful piece of writing mean nothing to you?!




;)

[Nóm]

I just learned people are pretty unhappy with my reasoning in my judgement here. (not uncommon.. I admit I suck at judging) but anyhow... sorry my judgement was poor (I assume it indeed was... certainly less quality than even my other judgements) and thank those unhappy people for not posting here in attempt to get me to change it. hehehe.

[Snaga]

I was disappointed of course, because it would have been nice to win. But your judgement was legitimate, even if patently wrong (;) ). I was pleased that you gave some reasons, because then at least one judge who voted against us did so! *cough cough*

Anyway... this is water that has long since gone under the bridge.:)