Judging: GoE Vs GoT round 10

[Celebthôl]

Heres the thread guys, it's nive and long ;) enjoy :)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13813

Judges are:

Periaur: Thôl
Scholars: Maedhros
Outcasts: Nom
Ost-in-Edhil: Ancalagon
Neutral: Elgee

Enjoy guys :)

[Gil-Galad]

Once again I would like to thank The Guild of Eruhini for the nice opportunity to debate with them.We all really enjoyed the debate.I hope we will meet you again soon :)

Good Luck to the judges,I hope they wil not have lots of headaches reading and judging the debate :) :)

[Finduilas]

Yes, I would like to thank for the wonderful debate too, and I hope we will debate soon again. It would be a pleasure for us.
:)
As for the judges...GoOd LuCk! :)

[Bethelarien]

Well, just wanted to say thanks to everyone who debated, and for allowing me to debate. And I apologize for the abomniably long post--I think I pulled a Nom. ;)

Very good debating, GoT.

And, of course, lovely job, Scatha and Omni. :D

[omnipotent_elf]

yeah, i think congrats all round for a good debate :D

if u wanna meet me, just say hi ( my Pm box is now completely fixed ) :P

[Scatha]

Well, GoT, thanks for another fine debate. :)
GG, your wish may come true soon enough. ;)


I hope the judges will have as much fun as we did during this debate, when they start judging it. ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Scatha
Well, GoT, thanks for another fine debate. :)
GG, your wish may come true soon enough. ;)


I hope the judges will have as much fun as we did during this debate, when they start judging it. ;)

Fun?!I hope so....but it seems they will have lots of headaches ;) :D !!!!

[Scatha]

LOL GG, nobody said we had to make it easy for the judges, now did they? ;)

[HLGStrider]

The GoE was on a good track until they got off on the Ring Wraith bit. I wanted to side with them because it just seemed a bit PJish, the whole Sympathetic Split Personality Gollum thingy. The Ring Wraith thing wasn't believable or backable and detracted from the whole arguement

Also GoT's use of Tolkien quotes was very persuasive, even though they seemed to have got the less appealing side of the arguement. HOWEVER, they also get into the Ring Wraith thing a bit.

The GoE, however, seems to be saved last minute by Beth's very persuasive post. I liked it. I liked it better than anything I'd read in the debate so far.

Though in the general debate the GoE seemed to be sort of disheveled and disorderly, their points came across very strongly in closing. . .SO the only down side for the GoE is the Ring Wraiths.

Therefore, I say GoE.

[Scatha]

Errr,.... i'm not meaning to nag, but could the remaining four judges please do their votes, so that this round may perhaps reach a conclusion?

[Gil-Galad]

That is nice idea Scatha :D ;)
The judges are risking our crafty Vala- AULE to be really angry with them.;)

[Niniel]

Yeah, but Aulë won't be back for three months, so something else must push them to judge. Maybe you can PM them?

[Gil-Galad]

Aule is missing,Nom too,I haven't seen Ancalagon and Maedhros for weeks......who will judge the debate?:(

[Celebthôl]

Ill judge when i have more time, and ill round up some other people, Aule isnt a judge here, im the Periaur judge, Nom....well....who knows? :( Ill ask someone else. And ill have a work with Anc.

Thank you for judging Elgee.

[Gil-Galad]

Do you real life problems Thol ,and then come back,don't worry we are here waiting for you :) ;)

[Gil-Galad]

But the problem with the judegs stays.
Hey,judges,where are you?:( :rolleyes:

Thol,did you find somebody to replace the missing persons?:)

[Scatha]

I would just like to see this finished, as the next tournament can be discussed better at a later stage, which is not in this thread.

[Gothmog]

I have removed some of the posts in this thread and moved them to Suggestions for improving the Judging of Debates (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=382646#post382646) In the TTF Debating Society.

If anyone has ideas for the improvement of the Judging please post in that thread.

[Celebthôl]

Well here it is people....after that MARATHON of a debate! ;) it was superbly done and a topic that could have gone either way it rested on the edge of a knife the whole time, and both teams kept it well balanced, however, it was not without some slight slip-ups and ill relay some to you:

posted by Findi
"love" and "hate" it at the same time !!!! That's the hardest punishment one's mind can be put onto !!!!

I disagree, love when you can't have, that is the hardest punishment.

posted by Omni
after the ring went from his grasp he could have just left it alone, and continued to live in the misty mountains!

We all know this is not true, the call of the ring was so powerful, it was even effecting Saruman who hadn't touched it for 5 seconds, let alond 500 years.

There were things like that though not many.

The quote that convinced me was this from Omni

thankyou for showing this
now - gollum may do some good before then end. I sense retribution, if small, but still retribution

thus, as i have been arguing all along : Gollum had the chance to gain retribution. AH HA - There was still hope.
The ringwraiths did not. Those poor ringwraiths were doomed. Did tolkien EVER right in his works that gollum was doomed - NO. He may of originally intended to, but that did not eventuate


It rheinforced my thoughts, that i had before the debate.

So having taken so so long to judge, i sowwy :o my vote goes to the Eruhini, but it was SO close, well done to both teams.

[baragund]

Hi Guys,

Maedhros is taking and extended leave of absence, so I'll be filling in for him. Please bear with me for a bit longer as I digest the debate, and then flip a coin to decide the winner (I'M KIDDING!!!)

[Gil-Galad]

I am glad to see you here Baragund,have a nice reading marathon with our debate :) ;)

[baragund]

Well, better late than never, but here is my judgment for this debate between the Elves / Dwarves (I like the old name) and the Tolkienologists. As usual, I try to put together an objective, reasoned, rational and thoroughly informed decision based on the following criteria that form the foundation of sound forensics:

1. Which team made the most effective use of Smileys.
2. Which team had the coolest avatars.
3. Which team did the best job of sucking up to the judges.
4. Random arbitrary and capricious feelings.

Using these criteria, I judge the Guild of Tolkienologists the winner of this debate. Oh, here are some other idle musings that may have something to do with my decision:



GoE had the more difficult side of the debate. Their task was to find somebody else in the history of ME that had a degree of suffering that was greater than Gollum’s, to whom JRRT dedicated thousands of words describing the awful misery and wretchedness that was his life. GoT had the defensive position, using this wealth of material in Tolkien’s writings to fend off any challenge by GoE that would, inevitably, have to become speculative in nature. The burden of proof was on GoE to show that somebody else had a more miserable existence than Gollum.

Unfortunately, GoE did not make things easier for themselves by committing several errors of fact as well as logic. These include the following:

*They compared the suffering of Gollum (an individual) to a group (the Nazgul) or even a whole society (the people of Rohan or the goblins of the Misty Mountains). This is comparing apples to oranges.

*They equated suffering inflicted on others to suffering endured by the individual (or group). Again, these are two different things.

*At one point, they proposed that Gollum “found peace” and “he was able to prevent his own suffering” by hiding in the Misty Mountains with the Ring. I found this to be such a hard sell I believe I actually exclaimed ‘No Way!’ aloud when I read the words. Gollum was driven into hiding by his guilt over murdering Deagol, and his fear of the Ring being lost or taken from him. The idea of existing for hundreds of years in the pitch dark, dank, stuffy roots of the mountains, wearing a loin cloth, grasping for raw fish out of his lake, eating raw orc and considering it to be a treat as something desirable just struck me as REALLY far-fetched. The Ring drove and tortured him from the beginning. His fear of losing it drove him into the mountains and his obsession with it drove him from the mountains after 500 some years.

*They suggested that Gollum’s “suffering was his own fault” by accepting the One just as the Nazgul accepted the Nine. Again, these are two different sets of circumstances. The Nazgul willingly accepted the Nine with promises of power and immortality. Gollum came across the One by accident and he never really understood what it was. He didn’t understand the nature of what Deagol found any more than a toddler would understand the nature of a loaded revolver.

GoE’s briefly mentioned a couple of candidates that may have suffered more than Gollum (the people of Rohan, the goblins of the Misty Mountains, Turin) but they spent the greatest amount of energy in building a case for the Nazgul. They did a nice job describing what their suffering may have been like ASSUMING they were nothing more than prisoners of Sauron’s will. Unfortunately, they did not do enough to show this was the case. As I read the passages that relate to this I kept asking myself ‘But how do we know the Nazgul are prisoners of Sauron’s will? How do we know they are not merely evil to the core?’

GoT, for their part, had an easy position to defend. There is plenty of material in the books to give eloquent descriptions of Gollum’s misery, and Lhun, GG and Finduilas each made moving posts to that effect. Lhun took an interesting approach by suggesting that suffering is defined more as a spiritual thing, governed by whether and how repentance and redemption are offered to an individual, as opposed to someone’s physical condition. Personally I think it’s both and I think Lhun’s line of reasoning could have been used against GoT’s position but it wasn’t. The post that I think best encapsulates the GoT’s position is GG’s post of 11/14. In those few paragraphs he pretty well destroyed GoE’s arguments and sums up Gollum’s existence in such a way that GoE never could really rebut it. After that, it really wasn’t a contest. Bethelarien made a very nice closing statement for GoE but it was too little too late.

If it were me, I would have made a case that Hurin might have suffered more than Gollum. He had the mental/spiritual suffering of seeing the world through Morgoth’s eyes so Lhun’s condition would have been met, and then being glued to a stone chair at the top of the Iron Mountains sure would have met the criteria for physical suffering. Oh well, maybe we can discuss this further in one of the book sections.


So as I said above, I give this debate to the Guild of Tolkienology

Thanks for letting me fill in and thanks for bearing with me for being so tardy with this judgment

[Nóm]

I've yet to read the end of the debate... I will get to it as soon as I can, it is a high priority for me. I apologise for the dely. I can not make any promises but my judgement will very likely be up within a couple days.

[Arvedui]

Did Gollum suffer more than anyone in Middle-earth ever had?

This was the topic at hand, and the teams did a good job on keeping me at least at a loss as to what where the true answer to this. Luckily, I had not made any opinion on this before I read the debate, so I start typing my judgement as fairly neutral to the topic at hand.

The GoE started of with a number of reasons to prove he did not:
* Others suffered equally, if not greater : look at the people of rohan(for one)!
* Gollum had a lifestyle (from the hobbit) in which people were fearful of him - especially the goblin king. Thus he did not suffer, as indeed, he caused others to suffer! (people of rohan didn't do that)
*gollum was never exiled - his fate never suffered like that of others
*gollum's "suffering" was due to his own devices - he caused the death of deagol
*gollum's own suffering was shared by other creatures - Isildur (who suffered a far greater fate then gollum, death), Bilbo, and all other ringbearers(including that of the wringwraiths, who lost their souls). Thus he was the not the only one suffering and indeed, he still remained himself, so thus could not be suffer more then those who paid a far greater price, their lives or their wills!.
All in all a good platform for further debate, and some really good points, especially the one about Gollum's suffering being because of his own devices.
At first they mainly kept providing quotes and arguments to support the first to points the listed.

The GoT countered by trying to define a set of rules for how to debate this topic:
1) Comparing the fates of all known characters against Gollum.
2) To establish a set of criteria of what causes the suffering of one or another, and take it from there.

I found it interesting that GoT tried to get their opponents to only debate option 2). But I also think that this was a bit too clever, as this would limit the opportunities for the GoE. And in the beginning it seemed that Lhun had managed to trick them, as they continued to compare Gollum with the Nazgûl, of all things.

My initial thought was that GoE had picked a rather strange set of characters and fates to compare Gollum with, and sure enough, the GoT gave them a hard time. IMO, no matter how much you put into Tolkien's writing, not a word can be found about what the Nazgûl thought of their situation.
But they made two very good points in the comparison between the two examples. This one by Omni:ask yourself- why and how did gollum obtain the ring! It was FOR THE SAME REASONS - GREED, DESIRE. and this one by Scatha:What Sauron gave them was not life, yet not death either.

One of the main points of GoT, was this by Lhunithiliel (I will use Lhun from here on, if needed ;) ):It is obvious that Tolkien believes that those, who found no salvation for their souls, for no chance for repentance was ever given to them, are the greatest sufferers in Arda and in ME in particular This they used as a basis to 'fight Gollum's cause' when stating Gollum was denied the chance to repent, because of Sam's blunt reaction.
I thought that with this they established a good base from where to debate further on, although I think that the use of Letter # 113 is not really right in this connection, as this letter does not concern Tolkien's texts, but those of CS Lewis, and Tolkien's abilities as a critic. Fortunately for them, they provided better quotes as the debate unfolded.

They also used this:Gollum had a life controlled by powers largely stronger than his will, yet he tried to oppose them! That caused to him sufferings that noone else would have endured!
The GoE had a lot of difficulties with countering GoT's point about Gollum being deprived of a chance to repent. Scatha took a shot at it in the beginning:Only part of Gollum wanted to repent, but that part listened to the name of smeagol. Smeagol was the part of Gollum that was kind and had a chance for salvation, the part not fully corrupted and that responded to kindness. Yet this was the same person that killed Deagol to obtain the One ring.
Gollum, who represents the corrupted side of this creature, was evil to it's core, therefor did not suffer, yet more made other suffer by his deeds. but IMO this was not enough to prove wrong the point that GoT had made. And neither was this from Omni: Gollum was though!
after the ring went from his grasp he could have just left it alone, and continued to live in the misty mountains!
and the ringwraiths weren't?
or do you not believe that sauron would control their wills so they obeyed his will completely? Not until the last post by Beth were they able to pinpont a fact that had been looming in the back of my head for some time:If Gollum had been truly repentant, Sam's words to him would have made no difference. Repentance denotes a complete change of heart. And Tolkien says "the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect". Therefore, in essence, he HAD repented.
The second point about Gollum being controlled by powers largely stronger than his will, was countered numerous times by GoE when describing the 'slavery' of the Nazgûl, although I am not so sure that they did this conciously...

----

So what is the bottom line of all my examples, and rather messed-up writing so far?

GoE gave five reasons on why Gollum did not suffer more than anyone in Middle-earth ever had. The way I see it, the GoT had an easy time arguing against the first reason as long as GoE stuck with the Nazgûl. Unfortunately for the GoT, GoE also brought in others. No matter if you like it or not, but the topic opened for that possibility, and the attempts of the GoT to direct the debate in the lane that suited their purpose best, failed here.

The point that Gollum did not suffer more than others because he caused others to suffer, and backing it up with using the Goblins as an example, were taken well care of by the GoT. Indeed I would say it backfired.

The bit that Gollum was never exiled, and therefore did not suffer as much as others, were in my opinion a bit thin, and I think that the GoT were able to prove that Gollum was indeed in some sort of an exile.

Gollum's suffering was due to his own devices. Yes it most certainly was, and I think that the GoT actually enhanced this point for the GoE when arguing over and over that the Nazgûl did not suffer because they had choosen their own destiny.

The point about Gollums sufferings being no different from that of other Ringbearers was IMO not sufficiently debated to say that the GoT was able to counter it.

Now back to what was really GoT only main stance in this debate, and the one that they tried to follow throughout the debate:Gollum suffered most than anyone else in Middle-earth! Because to him only was denied the only chance that could save his soul, the only chance for repentance and salvation. And as I have said before, Beth took the sting out of that one in her final post.

And the minor point that Gollum was controlled by powers greater than his will, is also already mentioned.

All in all, I think that the GoE maintained a steady flow of reasons to back up their initial points, and stuck with them, while the GoT IMO did not fully cope with the fact that GoE didn't accept their suggestion on how to debate the topic. Beth pointed out quite correctly in her closing post that they were in fact free to bring on the fates of everyone that has ever set their foot on Middle-earth.

My vote goes to the Guild of Eruhini.


Unfortunately, we never got to see a closing post from GoT, and the host must take the blame for that. I am not sure if it would have changed my vote, but that we will never know.

[Nóm]

This wil be short and Frank, as I don't have much time.

Eruhini started out extremely weak... putting forth arguements in the begining that were either unreasonable and/or not true.

For some time GoT put up a good case for the suffering of Gollum and did pretty good with pointing out the faults of Eruhini. However when the matter of the Ringwriaths was brought up (as I hoped it would be) the GoT lost the upper hand, and their demanding that Eruhini give quotes to prove the nazgul had suffered greatly and their discrediting of any reasonable suppositions on the sole basis that they were not stated clearly in the text, did not win me over. In the end Eruhini had grown pretty strong and I find their claim about the nazgul very reasonable and GoT did nothing to hinder it, and their the tactic used in their attempt, as I said above, did not win me over.... as surely we should not think: Tolkien did not state it, therefore it can not have existed.

While I am not convinced by Eruhini that nazgul did suffer more than gollum... I am not convinced that they suffered any less/Gollum more.. which is what the question asked.

Vote to Eruhini.

[Lhunithiliel]

Thanks to the judges for their work!
Congratulations to the Eruhini for winning this debate!

However, I can't help pointing out some of the outstanding mistakes done in the process of judging.

1/ Thol:
It rheinforced my thoughts, that i had before the debate.
No judging is fair enough when the judge has his/her own opinion on the topic discussed and only seeks which of the two teams will agree with it / prove it even stronger.

2/ Baragund:
GoT, for their part, had an easy position to defend.
No position is easy! ;) Besides NObody can convinve me that to defend Gollum - one of the most evil creatures in Arda, is "easy", my friend! The point however is that to say that GoT had an easier position to defend and failed (as obviously) makes my morning coffee a bit more bitter than usual! ;) :D

3/ Also, the last post of Bethelarien seems to have impressed the judges a lot (and no wonder - an excellent post!) so even if some were still indecisive which team to vote for , that post played its role.

I understand that the judges of course are not to blame for the unsteady and careless organization of the debate and they judged from what they had read as available. However, I find it very important to say that the GoT DID POST a closing post (and it in fact countered ALL of Beth's closing arguments AND wrapped up GoT's arguments in a way which would make the judges /I am absolutely sure!/ think twice and more times before voting.
The fact that you did not read our closing post is that when I posted it, ONLY then the Host of the debate sent me PM to say that I was late!
EXCUSE ME! But I definitely have other things to do except for looking at the callendar and the clock and know when the debate's deadline is. I however did some calculations...obviously wrong because of the time-differences and I was sure that I was still within the time-term. It turned out that I was not.
Anyway, I had to respect the Host's demand, so I deleted my post.
And now I see how much damage it has caused to the GoT!
Is it fair?

4/ The problem with the GoT (basically - me) suggesting
the comparisons to be limited.
Most of the judges seem to not have liked it. And why, if I may ask? Didn't you find it reasonable? It was after all not a discussion thread that could go on for weeks and months!
However, as I see, some judges did not like (or understand) my suggestion to limit the comparisons! And this was obviously another "-" for the GoT.

5/ Nom:
In the end Eruhini had grown pretty strong and I find their claim about the nazgul very reasonable and GoT did nothing to hinder it, and their the tactic used in their attempt, as I said above, did not win me over.... as surely we should not think: Tolkien did not state it, therefore it can not have existed.
I would not even expect you, Nom to say otherwise. ;) You and I have an absolutely opposite view on this matter - namely - to suggest (based on assumptions) or to prove (based on factual material from the writings) when it comes to a debate. I am sure you must already know that my fantasy may go too far when I let it, but in a debate this is not desireable, IMO. But I know that you prefer the assumptions and that you like it very much when you see someone using them as arguments, so no wonder you took the Eruhini's debating arguments as much stronger.
But, to say that "...the GoT did nothing to hinder it..." may speak to me about two things:
>> either you did not pay attention to the GoT's arguments at all! (Why! As we had to argue against the Nazgul, we parctically most of the time did precisely this!!!!!! :eek: )
>> or that you were not impartial.
In both cases - I disagree with your judgment.

6/ Quotes and tactics
Call me stupid, but I will NEVER be able to understand how a debate may be lost for a team, when this team:
>> supported a steady line in the position defended ( and NOT "ping-pong-ing" around)
>> took the time to "dig out" and provide quotes from the books and from peripheral sourses. I have always thought that these are to be trusted! Now it seems I was wrong to think so! :rolleyes: Because it seems that assumptions and deductions of a personal and individual character seem to be better and more gladly accepted as arguments!

To sum it up: I have seen those flaws (I dared even not mention the judging of the first judge who gave her opinion here!) and I was waiting to share them with you.
I am sure that ALL of you will now oppose me, that some may even get mad with me, that I might get into new troubles.
That is why I want to state sth. very clear:

To the Eruhini - Guys, I acknowledge your efforts and I think you did a great job! I am really glad for you winning the debate! The fact that I have commented on the flaws of judgement does not take the glamour of your victory away! It was a real pleasure meeting you in that debate and I admit you gave us a hard time! ;)

To the judges - with a couple of exceptions, I disagree with your opinions. You, that voted against the GoT, could not convince me that you were right in your opinion! :p

To the GoT - This case (as some others from earlier) has to show us that good co-ordiantion and co-operation in team activities are a must if we want to win!

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
1/ Thol:

No judging is fair enough when the judge has his/her own opinion on the topic discussed and only seeks which of the two teams will agree with it / prove it even stronger.


Its impossible to get someone of zero opinion to judge something like this, id like to see you judge and not think about the topic at all, but just what is said! :rolleyes:

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Its impossible to get someone of zero opinion to judge something like this, id like to see you judge and not think about the topic at all, but just what is said! :rolleyes:
Imagine how it is to debate and defend a position that practically the "black" is "white"! ;)
But it can be done. I have also had a couple of debates to judge and I always "cleared" my head before I started reading the arguments of both teams. But even when I had my own opinion on the topic debated, I admired more those arguments that went against it!:rolleyes:

[omnipotent_elf]

*extends hand*
Thankyou for the wonderful debate :D:D:D
Thankyou judges for your time :D :D
and thanx Lhun for having an opionion ;)

[baragund]

Lhun raises some fair points and, for my part, I'll respond to the ones that relate to my judgment:

She correctly points out that no position in these debates is easy. Fair enough; it would have been more appropriate for me to say that the GoT had the easier position to defend rather than an easy position to defend. But honestly, I thought demonstrating Gollum was the most wretched creature in the history of ME would not have been that difficult.

Now regarding Lhun's statement below:

NObody can convinve me that to defend Gollum - one of the most evil creatures in Arda, is "easy

Hmmmm... your assertion that Gollum was one of the most evil creatures in ME would draw a spirited debate from many, including me! If you don't believe me, check out the "Who is the true hero of LOTR" thread over in the books section. It is one of the longest and most passionately discussed threads in this entire forume, and there are all kinds of persuasive arguments that it was the little creep who was the true hero.

Regarding the GoT attempts at narrowing the scope of the debate, in my mind there ARE many different kinds of suffering. I agree that the psychological suffering Lhun aludes to is some of the worst, other kinds of suffering, namely physical, cannot be discounted. I think all of the judges recognized that.

Regarding use of quotes and tactics, well I'll just refer back to my judgement post.

[Nóm]

Lhunithiliel, of course I view facts as being more powerful than suppositions, and things stated by Tolkien to things assumed, and furthermore GoT made arguements of the same kind while holding it against Eruhini. Now had you did more arguing for why the wraiths must not have suffered so much as Gollum you might have convinced me.

Frankly I wonder why you are still in the tournament considering you have felt the need to do so much public complaining about judgements. The judgements are NO MORE than the opinion of the judges and in no way do these show who truely 'won' the debate. If you think your team won then perhaps you did.

I know I have won a debate that I feel I lost, as well as lost a debate that I am damn sure I won... that's just how it goes.

It's all for fun, isn't it?

Note that I didn't vote for Eruhini because they didn't use so much of what you would call fact, but because the GoT's major defence was to discredit things that are not clearly stated.

Your lack of defence! Not Eruhini's interpretations and ideas!

Of course you can whine all you want, but I'm not going to keep my mouth shut when it happens.


So get over it and accept that judgements are not perfect, or continue to be unhappy.

But as long as people rather debate than discuss... what can be expected?

And... by the way, did you ever gripe about a poor judgement when GoT "won"? ;)


orange=removed profanity
yellow=edited for clarity

[Gothmog]

Discuss this problem by all means. But do not let it get out of hand, all contributers to this topic remember above all else Courtesy and Respect to other members even if you disagree with their views.

Thank you all. :)

**steps down from the soap-box and quietly steps back into his shadow. **

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Nóm
Lhunithiliel, of course I view facts as being more powerful than suppositions, and things stated by Tolkien to things assumed, and furthermore GoT made arguements of the same kind while holding it against Eruhini. Now had you did more arguing for why the wraiths must not have suffered so much as Gollum you might have convinced me.

Frankly I wonder why you are still in the tournament considering you have felt the need to do so much public *****ing about judgements. The judgements are NO MORE than the opinion of the judges and in no way do these show who truely 'won' the debate. If you think your team won then perhaps you did.

I know I have won a debate that I feel I lost, as well as lost a debate that I am damn sure I won... that's just how it goes.

It's all for fun, isn't it?

Note that I didn't vote for Eruhini because they didn't use so much of what you would call fact, but because the GoT's major defence was to discredit things that are not clearly stated.

Your lack of defence! Not Eruhini's interpretations and ideas!

Of course you can ***** all you want, but I'm not going to keep my mouth shut when it happens.


So get over it and accept that judgements are not perfect, or continue to be unhappy.

But as long as people rather debate than discuss... what can be expected?

And... by the way, you ever griped about a poor judgement when GoT "won"? ;)
********* DELETED BY STAFF
watch your tone please

And perhaps one day when you do, you will learn how to behave!
I don't give a damn about your opinion. Too far from my understanding about judging abilities are yours!
And don't expect ME to shut up and withhold MY opinions, as you obviously have expected.
Who do you think you are to allow yourself speak to me in such a way!!!

[Celebthôl]

Alright this has already gone far enough, Gothmog can you close this thead please.

[Gothmog]

seems that quiet reminders and requests are not heeded.

Thread Closed.