Judging Round 10-GoS vs. GoO

[Gil-Galad]

This is the place where the judges of this debate should post their opinions and decisions.
As a matter of fact the topic was really difficult and I believe it will be very difficult for us to judge who was the better team :)
The judges are :

Gil-Galad -GoT -GoS
Gothmog- GoiE -GoO
Scatha-GoE -GoO
Snaga -GoP -GoS
Ithrynluin-Neutral -GoS

I would like to ask the judges to post their decisions ASAP!!

Thank you and Good Luck !!!

[Scatha]

Well first off, this has got to be the shortest debate in the history of this tournament.

Both sides raised good arguements to state their case, but little was done to undermine these. Both guilds made equally good posts in regards of the topic, yet the closing statement by the Outcasts for me turned the debate their way.

Well done by both teams, though sadly it was short.

My vote goes to the Outcasts.

[Ithrynluin]

The wording of the question is tricky. 'Enduring legacy' can either be positive or negative. This added to the scope of the question quite nicely I think. The Outcasts spot that soon enough.

In the opening post, the Scholars make a good case for Belegost, and also make what seems an objective and reasonable evaluation of Nogrod's legacy, concluding with:

Nogrod’s legacy was damaging but could be overcome.


The GoO also start with a strong opener.

Baragund counters the GoO's claim (that the Dwarves of Nogrod brought about the ruin of Doriath) by saying that the culprits for that were many. True enough.

GoO's second post makes me lean over more in their favour.

Elfarmari comes in, emphasizing the importance of Moria (which was populated by the Belegost Dwarves) as a bastion of power in opposition to Sauron. Good point.

All in all, an interesting and challenging debate, if somewhat short. My vote goes to the Scholars though, for building up a slightly more convincing case.

[Snaga]

I had a much longer explanation of my view but I lost it because I lost my connection at a critical moment!:mad: So I hope you can make do with this....

I'm voting for the Scholars. They didnt convince me of their point of view, but GOO didnt really take their case apart in the way it deserved. The GOO case really held no water at all IMO... to call Numenor or Aragorn a legacy of Nogrod doesnt ring true. The Scholars made a horrible error of fact in claiming the Longbeards came from Belegost. This should have been picked up on, but GOO didn't notice.

Neither side really got to the heart of this matter in my opinion but the Scholars win on points, rather than by a KO. I guess more posts would have got us further.:(

Well done to both sides. Good topic, Gil-Galad.:)

P.S. Noone mentioned Telchar, maker of Narsil, Angrist etc.!:o
P.P.S. A legacy is not the same as a long chain of subsequent events!

[Elfarmari]

hello?:(

[Gil-Galad]

Well it seems that Ancalagon and me are the only who haven't posted our opinions yet.
I wanted to be the last one to post his judgement and to close the thread,but Anc is probably too busy with his real life so I am going to post my decision before him.

As a whole I think that the topic was interesting and difficult.I expected more from both Guilds.Unfortunately some members are missing and that had a negative influence on the debate.

The Guild of Scholars posted very good opening post.Baragund accented on the fact that Belegost
...declined to take part in Nogrod’s war with Doriath and counseled them against taking such rash actions, rightly thinking that there must have been more to the story than what Nogrod was telling them, they demonstrated that they had ‘cooler heads’ and were more statesman like in their approach to relations with other kingdoms.
Baragund mentioned very briefly that the dwarves from Belegost took part in Nirnaeth Arnoediad,and that was enough.
But the best thing he did in his opening post was that he emphasized on the Belegost's legacy after I age and their relationships with the elves .

The-Elf-Herself's opening post was strong too,noting down what happened with Thingol->Melian->Doriath->Elwing etc. "thanks to " Nogrod.

Then Baragund mentioned that no matter of the Nogrod's actions the oath of Feanor would have made Curufin and Celegorm attack Doriath.Pretty good point.

But The-Elf-Herself's answer was really good:
I doubt the Sons of Feanor would have been able to sack Doriath had her power been in place-and her power would have been in place had Thingol not been slain by the dwarves of Nogrod.


they would be going up against the power of a Maia incarnate, a powerful king, and an entire city. Only after Thingol had been slain and Melian departed was Doriath truly vulnerable to their attacks

At the same time Baragund wrote one very good sentence which made me think about the real role of the dwarves of Nogrod

The dwarves simply served as a catalyst.

Then Elfmari came with some nice ideas.
She put a stress on Belegost's legacy after I age and their contributions against evil.

At the same time GoO continued delving into what would not have happened if the dwarves from Nogrod had not killed Thingol.

The-Elf-Herself's closing post put once again a stress on the Elwing->Earendil thing.

At the same time GoS tried to systemize Nogrod and Belegost's actions and legacies.(hmhm they went too far away claiming that Arwen and Aragorn surivived thanks to Belegost.The same could have been used with the same success from GoO ;) )

I don't know,both Guilds did not show their best and I can't say any of them convinced me they were right.
But for me GoS debated better than GoO.
My vote goes to GoS

I would like to thank to the judges and their nice work :)

[Scatha]

My pleasure GG. Congrats to the GoS for their win. :)

[baragund]

Thanks Scatha!:) I just feel bad that I had to cut out for the last three days of the debate. That's the way things go, I guess.

I've been anxious for the judging to finish because there is something I really want to discuss further with all of you (judges and debators). Snaga picked up on it but I want Anc to post his judgement before I get into it.

[Gil-Galad]

I suppose I know what is this something;) I am eager to see Anc's judgement ;)

[Ancalagon]

I have asked Arvedui or GOthmog to fill in for me in the judging of this debate as I am currently working and not able to post a full response. Anyway, it was difficult enough coming up with the question, surely I don't have to judge it also:D

[Gil-Galad]

Ok,but I hope Arvedui or Gothmog will post the decision of the GoiE's judges ASAP :)

[Gothmog]

A very good debate on what I felt to be a difficult question. There is only limited information that can be used. But both teams did well with what there was.

A good opening post by baragund giving the main points of the Scholars view. He did much to show that the Dwarves of Belegost did many things after the ruin of Doriath and even up to the time of just before the War of the Ring. At the same time he also did his best to cut as much ground away from the Outcasts as he could.

The-Elf-Herself responded very well with her post to open for the Outcasts. In this she claims that the destruction of Doriath led directly to the meeting of Elwing and Eäendil and so to the births of Elrond and Elros.

baragund came back saying that Norgrod's part in the destruction of Doriath was not as great as the Outcasts claimed. He lays much of the blame on Thingol and the Oath of Feanor. Baragund further points out correctly that the Girdle of Melian had already been removed and Doriath left open to attack before the host of Norgrod got there and that the Dwarves were only a Catalyst.

The-Elf-Herself answered that had the Dwarves of Norgrod not killed Thingol thatn the Girdle would have remained and therefore it would have been unlikely that the Sons of Feanor could have sacked Doriath.

Elfarmari then came in for the Scholars claiming that the Dwarves of Belegost had a big impact on the later ages including Arwen's and Aragorn's union.

The-Elf-Herself replied that Both Aragorn and Arwen were descended from the children of Eärendil and Elwing – Aragorn from Elros and Arwen from Elrond, so returning to an earlier point of the GoO.

Elfarmari posted a summery of the arguments of both teams that well covered what I saw as the important points. However, while she gave an hypothesis to cover Eärindil's voyage to Aman, she did nothing to try to asnwer the points that not only Arwen daughter of Elrond descended from the union of Eärendil and Elwing but also the line of Númenor that lead to Aragorn descendant of Elros.

A very good debate. Both sides gave very good arguments. However, in light of a lack of argument to invalidate Norgrod leading to Eärendil & Elwing = Elros and Elrond = Aragorn & Arwen. I have to give my vote to the Guild of Outcasts.

My congratulations to both teams. :)

[baragund]

OK guys, now that the judging is finished, I'd like to further explore one of the assertions that GoS made that seems to have raised some eyebrows. (I also need a break from plowing through that Round 9 debate between GoT and O-in-E!!) The controversy stemmed for the GoS suggestion that the Longbeards were from Belegost.

When I put that into our opening post, Aule sent me a PM telling me I was out of my mind, Snaga stated it was a "horrible error of fact" and even Nom said I was wrong when she returned from her absence.

Was I?

As I was gathering material for the GoS opening post, I came across these passages. First, there is this from The Annals of Aman, from Morgoth's Ring. It is describing the arrival of the Dwarves in Beleriand in the Year of the Trees 1250:

But at that time no grief lay between them, and King Thingol welcomed them; and the Longbeards of Belegost aided him in the delving and building of the great halls of Menegroth...

Next we have a couple of passages contained in The War of the Jewells, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Naugrim and the Edain, Sec. 7:

...and those who dwelt in Belegost they called the Ennfeng or Longbeards, for their beards swept the floor before their feet.

Now this seems to contradict Sec. 3 that says:

Of these (the seven Fathers of the Dwarves) Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that dwarf-kin most friendly to the Elves whose mansions were at Khazad-dum.

But there is a rather long commentary on this issue located at the end of the revised QS Chapter 10 which deals mainly with how Tolkien was trying to reconcile his original conception of two races of Dwarves as described in the Tale of the Nauglafring, BOLT vol. II with the current conception of the seven races. This commentary concludes thus:

'He was the father of the fathers of the eldest race of the Dwarves, the Longbeards, and my first ancestor: I am his heir.' It was obviously consideration of Thorin's words in The Hobbit and the need for their correction that led him to alter the text of Appendix A, which in the Second Edition (1966) reads: 'Durin is the name that the Dwarves used for the eldest of the Seven Fathers of their race, and the ancestor of all the kings of the Longbeards', with the addition of a footnote reference to the passage in The Hobbit, now published in its corrected form.

Thus, circuitously, the Longbeards finally entered The Lord of the Rings, as the Dwarves of Khazad0dum; but the texts of The Silmarillion and the Annals were never changed, and the Longbeards remained the Dwarves of Belegost.

Next we have this passage from The Peoples of Middle Earth, The Tale of Years of the Second Age:

About this time many dwarves fleeing from the ruins of the dwarf-cities in the Blue Mountains came to Moria, and it's power and the splendour of its works were greatly increased.

Not much there at first glance but it reinforces the passages given above. To me, this suggests that Durin's people migrated to Moria from Belegost. Later, in Of Dwarves and Men, Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men, Tolkien describes the awakening place the ancestor of the Longbeards as Mount Gundabad. This section also goes on to describe that the dwarves were reluctant to migrate from their ancestral homes but if the Longbeards could migrate to Moria, I don't see why they couldn't have migrated to Belegost as well.

What do you guys think? Did I take all of this stuff out of context or is this one of those annoying loose ends that JRRT left for us to ponder?

[baragund]

Sufferin' Succotash!!:eek:

Did I stump you guys or are you ignoring me?:p

[Nóm]

Hi baragund!

I am away from home (and consequently HoME ;)) right now so I can not give a thorough answer.

I can tell you there is a passage in Of Dwarves and Men that says the dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod were Broadbeams and Firebeards. One further, it says some of the dwarves awoke in Erud Luin. I recall being left with the impression that Durin's folk had been away East all along, and were later joined by some left-overs from Ered Luin. :)

I guess you have PoME so you could check for youself. If not I promise a thorough answer at a later date. :D