Of Reading Ut and HoME

[maarten]

I'm planning on reading some of the ME-story books like unfinished tales, do they read like the silmarrilion or more like LORT?
I liked the silmarillion better actually because of the grandeur of the events told. LOTR seemed more like just another story after i read the silmarilion...
And with what book should i begin, or is there no order in them?

[aragil]

UT and HOME read more like the Silmarillion, with Christopher Tolkien explanations every chapter describing different versions of the drafts and relating whatever personal feelings his father had shared on these matters. Just a warning, Tolkien's writing style was not yet as refined as it was in later publications. Also CT has presents them pretty much as is, so they don't have the benefit of any editing.

[Tulkas]

Ok, a couple of weeks ago I started reading The Book of Lost Tales and I eventually had to stop because I was so confused by all the name changes, such as Vanyar to Teleri and Teleri to Solosimpi. I am now reading the Unfinished Tales and find that easier to read. Could you guys help me out with what HoME books would be worth my reading, or are all HoME books like that?

I plan to read books like The Lost Tales after I have read more Tolkien and have more knowledge of Middle-Earth. The different versions of a story confuse me.

Please help.

[Ståle]

Vanyar, Teleri(and Noldor) actually refer to the three different "tribes" of Elves(also known as Light-Elves, Deep-Elves and Sea-Elves respectively).

[Tulkas]

Come on guys. All I need to know is is it ok to read things from HoME out of order? I have many of the books and I see some things that look cool, but I have to read through something boring to get to it.

BTW, it isn't neccesarily boring, just beyond my Middle-Earth knowledge and is hard to read.

[Telchar]

I'm always reading HoME "out of order", I seldom read the HoME books from the beginning to the end, only did it once I think, and now I rearly finish one book before i'm reading some chapters in another. So I agree with Walter, it dosn't matter if you follow read it in the right order or not, as long as you get through it. :)

[Andquellewen]

What are all the HoME books??? Titles I mean..

[bullitt]

History of Middle-Earth -

Volume I : The Book of Lost Tales : Part One
Volume II : The Book of Lost Tales : Part Two
Volume III : The Lays of Beleriand
Volume IV : The Shaping of Middle-Earth
Volume V : The Lost Road and Other Writings
Volume VI : The Return of the Shadow : History of LoTR : Part I
Volume VII : Treason of Isengard : History of LoTR : Part II
Volume VIII: The War of the Ring : History of LoTR : Part III
Volume IX : Sauron Defeated : The End of the Third Age : HoLoTR : IV
Volume X : Morgoth's Ring
Volume XI : The War of the Jewel
Volume XII : The People's of Middle-Earth

I hope I haven't completely confused you.


Bullitt

[Andquellewen]

THANK YOU!!!!
I can start reading them in order now :D

[Camille]

I need help guys, and since you are talking about HOME..., I went to a library last week looking for some tolkien books and I found some of the HOME books, I already have the book of lost tales ,and I read it before the sil, and it was ok to read the sil and found everything in order!! in the Book of lost tales some times you only have pieces of information.
I would like to know if all this collection of books (HOME) have something new, I mean they are based on the stories of the sil and the LOTR anthe Hobbit and just are differnt versions of them, or there are new stories like how Eorl the young made the Rohan city, or more about the dwarves, I would like to know before buying them
greetings

[Snaga]

I have

Volume VII : Treason of Isengard : History of LoTR : Part II
Volume VIII: The War of the Ring : History of LoTR : Part III
Volume IX : Sauron Defeated : The End of the Third Age : HoLoTR : IV

I bought them in a bookshop, the moment I clapped eyes on them. I wish I had VI, because occasionally I notice that there are things referred to that I don't know about but mostly each volume stands on its own quite well.

I've also got BoLT1, and can't really get used to it! I think for most of us the LotR ones will be an easier read if for no other reason than our familiarity with the final story.:)

[Tinder]

I've read the first ten volumes of HoME, but not the last two... so I'm sure there are some large holes in my HoMe lore. I don't think its nessecary to read them in order, when ever I read something from HoME it's usually an isolated chapter here and there. I loved 'The Book of Lost Tales' I think I go back and read the stories there more than any other of The HoME books - especially 'The Fall of Gondolin' and 'The Tale of Tinuviel'. 'The Lays of Beleriand' too, I love the section where Fingolfin and Melkor duel...

[greypilgrim]

I have heard that Ronald (J.R.R.) wrote a story set in the 4th age about a man finding a lost road somewhere in England and it leads to Middle-earth. Can anyone confirm this and if possible, tell me if it is worth looking into and purchasing?

[Lillyaundra]

There is a book that fits that description but I don't know if it is Based in the fourth age or not. It is called The Lost Road and Other Writings by J.R.R. Tolkien.

[Flame of Anor]

I would like to what the HoME is like and if it is worth reading, is it repeating a lot of things that I have already read, or does it contain a bunch of stuff that you cannot find anywhere else?

-Flame

[Rúmil]

Home is sort of like the Sil, constructed from old manuscripts, but MUCH more untidy than the Sil. It repeats a lot from the other published books, but if you are a true Tolkien fan it's definitely worth reading. I would suggest starting with vol. 12 and last, the People of ME, which has a lot of constructed, "finished" narrative; plus; a lot of new information. vol 10 and 11, also, are intersing, and they contain the latest version of the Sil. Vols 6 to 9 contain the drafts of Lotr: basically everything that was rejected from the final novel. This is not easy reading, mostly consists of scattered jottings. However, vol 9 also contains an unfinished novel The Notion Club Papers, not in the style of Lotr or the Sil at all, but about 20th century persons; is is supposed to have connect in the end to the myth of Númenor but never got there (only hints). Vols 4 and 5 contain earlier versions of the texts grouped into the published Sil. Vol 5 contains three chapters of an unfinished novel, The Lost road, again about 20th century people who sort of travel back through time to Númenor. Vol 3 contains two long poems, one about Túrin, one about Bren and Lúthien. Sort of like Beowulf in form. Vol 1 and 2 contain very early versions of the Fall of Gondolin, Túrin, and others.

Hope this answers.

[Flame of Anor]

Wow, thanks. I think that I will try to get my hands on it. Another question, what are the letters of JRRT like or are they included in the HoME?

-Flame

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Flame_of_Anor
Wow, thanks. I think that I will try to get my hands on it. Another question, what are the letters of JRRT like or are they included in the HoME?

-Flame

As far as i know,the letters are a separate work and are not mingled with the HOME series.
I've only taken a brief glimpse at them once - I had to return them in an hour or so,but even in that short time I literally consumed them:)
I think the letters are a must for any Tolkien fan and I'll be getting my own copy very soon.

[Flame of Anor]

Thank you. You have been a wonderful help.

-Flame

[Duguay]

Can anyone tell me if there is a topic forum that discusses the significance of each book in the History of Middle Earth series? Also, another question that is not quite related. I have Unfinished Tales, and I've only read snippets of it. But the text looks a lot like some of the HoME books (numbered notes at the end of each section, different font sizes to separate the story from commentaries). My question is: why is the Unfinished Tales not a part of the HoME series?

[jallan]

It should almost be called HoME 0, as a kind of beginning of the series.

Christopher Tolkien edited it before he decided to produce the HoME series. It mostly, but not altogether, contains material that is congruent with the published Silmarillion and writings published his his father's lifetime, and in some cases Christopher Tolkien has slightly edited the material into more finished form and replace manuscript versions of names with the names in the previously published texts.

This Christopher Tolkien does not do in the HoME series.

[redline2200]

Can anyone tell me how many History of Middle-Earth books there are? I heard there was 12, but I am not exactly sure. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[FoolOfATook]

There are officially 12 books in the History Of Middle Earth:
1. The Book Of Lost Tales
2. The Book Of Lost Tales Volume II
3. The Lays Of Beleriand
4. The Shaping Of Middle-earth
5. The Lost Road and Other Writings
6. The Return Of The Shadow
7. The Treason Of Isengard
8. The War Of The Ring
9. Sauron Defeated
10. Morgoth's Ring
11. The War Of The Jewels
12. The Peoples Of Middle-earth

However, Houghton Mifflin, for their paperback editions of the History Of The Lord Of The Rings (Volumes 6-9) printed a book titled "The End Of The Third Age", which is the first part of Sauron Defeated. So, there are officially 12 volumes, but there are thirteen books, if you follow.

One could also consider Unfinished Tales to be a sort of "unofficial" part of the HoME, since it follows the same form that Christopher Tolkien used in the HoME series, but it was published before the HoME series began, and was never "retconned" in.

[redline2200]

I follow perfectly, thanks.

[GuardianRanger]

I've also seen a 13th book listed....an index. I've only seen this in "boxed sets."

[FoolOfATook]

From what I understand, there is an index to the complete HoMe, but it's only available in the UK right now. I do know that I haven't seen it at any of the bookstores that I haunt.

[Bombadillo]

is home worth reading?... it sounds a bit boring... twelve books with (as i believe) mostly the same stories as in the sil and lotr...

(you can just pm me about this, as not to spoil this thread)

[Niniel]

I saw the Index to HoME in our bookshop. But I really want to know if it's worth reading before I buy any HoMe books, since they're at least 20 euros each (which is also 20 dollars), so that would be like 250 euros for all of them, and I can't afford that.

[Inderjit S]

You don't have to buy them in bulk. Buying one every few months would be pretty cost effective.

[FoolOfATook]

Niniel,
You'd obviously know more about Dutch bookstores than I would, but I can say that over here in the states, most, if not all, of the HoMe is available in paperbacks that cost around $8. Maybe there are similiarly priced editions in Europe?

[Niniel]

I'm afraid not. Books (and CD's, and DVD's) are ridiculously expensive in the Netherlands, compared to almost every other country. Maybe I should try buying them from Amazon or Ebay, that might be cheaper. Anyway, I'm first going to read the Letters of Tolkien, which I bought yesterday. Yay! And after that I'll think about HoME.

[Feänor]

Is is just me, or is the hardcover edition of 'The book of lost tales, part II' no longer in print? All I've seen is the Houghton Mifflin 1984 hardcover going for $100-200 used.

[morello13]

i have the red hardcover book of last tales form library right now no sure how old it is, if i can 200 bucks for i should just steal it and sell it on ebay

[FoolOfATook]

I'm first going to read the Letters of Tolkien, which I bought yesterday. Yay

Letters is a book that I fall in love with more and more every time I pick it up. I know that I enjoy it more than all of HoMe, except for the History of LOTR and parts of Peoples of Middle-earth and Morgoth's Ring. His letters to the Nazi officials about publishing the Hobbit in Germany should settle once and for all and accusations that Tolkien was racist. His letters to his children reveal just how deeply he loved them and cared for them. His letters about religion show a man who had thought deeply about his faith, exploring it while never doubting it. It's truly an amazing book, and I'm not sure if I could ever thank Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien enough for giving it to us.

[Niniel]

I completely agree with you FoaT! I've only gotten to letter 60 or so, but I enjoy them thoroughly! There are lots of very interesting ideas about the early concepts of LOTR. It's also interesting to see how JRRT struggled with writing LOTR; at first he thought he wouldn't have enough stuff to write a sequel to the Hobbit, since he had used all his ideas for the Hobbit. And then slowly you can see LOTR growing.... his publishers got rather desperate I believe. And what he writes about war does rather much apply to the current situation in the world, which makes it very interesting. I'll go on reading the rest of the letters, I love them!

[pgt]

Thanks for the list - I'm going to keep that one and use it to drop hints around Birthdays and other convenient times.

Do the books have to read 'in order'?

Anymore my interests have evolved to focus specifically on the events of LotR, men and the 3rd age (and perhaps earlier like Numenor's rise and fall). Dwarves and Hobbits as well.

Which books would you suggest staring with to focus on those areas of interest? I'm guessing Vol 6-12?

thanks,
-T

PS: Is the Atlas of Middle Earth a good companion to all of these books? Any 'other' companions worth considering too?

[Beleg]

Humm, truth be told HOME series is really, really hard to find here. Hardcovers are not avvalable, to get paperback i need to travel 1000 miles + they are real expensive, and second hand copies are also difficult to come by.
The best way is to haunt a person who has the books and then photocopy them.
Some people feel letter's are boring but sometimes they are as interesting as the story. Its like reading someone's Journal and it tells us more about the person and the reasoning behind his writing etc, etc.

[Inderjit S]

Anymore my interests have evolved to focus specifically on the events of LotR, men and the 3rd age (and perhaps earlier like Numenor's rise and fall). Dwarves and Hobbits as well.

For Numenor, see-HoME 5.

For LoTR and the Third Age see-HoME 6-9, For the develoment of LoTR, plus information on Numenor in the 'Notion Club Papers' in HoME 9 and HoME 12 for information on Hobbit geneaolgies (I found it very, very dull) and an essay called 'Of Dwarves and Men' about early Dwarven movement/history.

[Melko Belcha]

Unfinished Tales contains alot of late writing from Tolkien about the Second and Third Age, plus two great stories from the First.
I & II - The Book of Lost Tales pt. 1 & 2 in the earliest writings that eventualy became The Simarillion.
III - The Lays of Beleriand contains Tolkiens unfinished poems for the story of Turin and Beren and Luthien. A truely amazing read.
IV - The Shaping of Middle-earth contains the only full version of The Silmarillion plus the first map.
V- The Lost Road and other writings. The Lost Road is a story Tolkien never completed but gave rise to the tale of Numenor. The book also contains all his writing on the Sil up until LOTR is started.
VI, VII, & VIII - The Return of the Shadow, The Treason of Isengard, and The War of the Ring all deal with the writing of LOTR.
IX - Sauron Defeated. The first half finishes LOTR plus the original last chapter. The second half contains The Notion Club Papers and the later Fall of Numenor.
X & XI - Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels is all the later writings of the Sil from after LOTR till his death. My personal favorites.
XII - The Peoples of Middle-earth deals with the appendix's of LOTR plus a few other later writings like the sequel to LOTR.

[pgt]

Just to clarify, these various volumes 'expand' upon the relavant Sil and the LOTOR appendices and don't simply regurgitate them?

---

They aren't very easy to come by in my area either. I see an occasional paperback here or there but never more than a couple few paperbacks at even the larger bookstores.

-
thanks,
-T

[Melko Belcha]

Yes but not really.
The 12 volumes is the history of Tolkiens writings. There are many incomplete stories and essays that he never meant to release. There is alot of repetition but you see how the stories grow and also see all the stuff Christopher Tolkien had to work with to get The Silmarillion in a form that could be published.
The books are not for everyone so read Unfinished Tales and if you can handle that then the rest is not that hard.

[Melko Belcha]

I would read them in order because it shows you the growth of the legends.

6-9 deal with LOTR, 12 deals with the appendix, Unfinished Tales covers alot of the Second and Third age.

The Atlas of Middle-earth is great.
Also get The Complete guide to Middle-earth by Robert Foster.

[Inderjit S]

Also get The Complete guide to Middle-earth by Robert Foster.

I respectfully disagree. The complete guide is astonishingly innacurate geographically and information wise.

[Melko Belcha]

I respectfully disagree. The complete guide is astonishingly innacurate geographically and information wise.


Inderjit S please give example.

[Melko Belcha]

I use it to help jog my memory on stuff. And to get page #'s for alot of the quotes I'm looking for that I cannot find in the Index to a book. The Index to LOTR dosen't cover the Appendix but the Guide still gives you page #'s so you don't have to search the Appendix everytime you are looking sentence to quote.

[Inderjit S]

I am sorry, I got my scholars confused. I meant David Day.

[Melko Belcha]

Yes I agree about David Day's not being very accurate.

[Niniel]

Another question about the HOME books (since that's the topic of this thread): I finally got hold of half of them: 1, 4, 5, 10, 11, and 12, and I was wondering does it matter whether I read them in order or can I just read them anyway I like? It might be a while before I can find the other half, and I don't want to wait with reading those I have until I get the rest.

[Nóm]

I found these very useful in getting a good understanding of the contents of HoMe at a glance:

What's in the History of Middle-earth? (http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.html)

The HoMe texts in chronological order. (http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.html)

[Iluisa Olórin]

PS: Is the Atlas of Middle Earth a good companion to all of these books? Any 'other' companions worth considering too?

Christopher Tolkien recommends Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, which I find an invaluable reference.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Walter
Vol 3 - the lays (poems) of the tales of Túrin and Luthien - can IMO also be seen separately from the rest since most of the actual contents can also be found elsewhere in the HoMe.
Well Walter, I have to disagree with you here. I think that you should read them in order 1-5. Why? Because when you are reading the commentaries made by CT in Home 3, he makes references mostly to The Tale of Tinúviel and The Tale of Turambar in home 2. If you read them in order, you would have those stories fresh in your mind when the comparisons are made. In The Lay of Leithien, you can see also the development of the Nargothrond element. The name Nargothrond actually appeared here first as Felagund too. One would miss the earlier conception that it was Celegorm and Curufin the ones who founded Nargothrond.
Also, when reading Home 4, Quenta Noldorinwa, in the main narrative there are references to The Lay of Leithien, as they are in The Published Silmarillion too. Besides, would someone want to miss the great description of Nargothrond made in The Lay of the Children of Húrin? Or the details of Húrin's imprisionment in Angband?

[Lhunithiliel]

I am far from being able to advise anyone in what order to read the HoMe - volumes.
Partly, because it depends on what one has available!
Partly, because some of us are more interested in the Sil - story and others - in the LOTR - story.

I would suggest however, from what I have been lucky to read - start and procede just as the volumes are numbered. It gives you a perfect view on how the creation of the final stories had been achieved.

As for Volume III - that is a marvellous collection of some fine poetry - a poetry that if you care reading it aloud, you'll find yourself almost singing!; a poetry that inspires and moves; a poetry that gives a lot of information too; a poetry that practically takes your mind to that imaginary world, called Middle-earth!

Oh, and DO read Christopher Tolkien's comments! A lot to be learned from them! :)

[Beleg]

Personally I didn't find Volume III all that fun.
Perhaps the most boring part of all HOME series.
But that offcourse is my personal opinion since I am not very fond of poetry.

Whatever order, Volume VI, VII, VIII, IX should be read togather.
IMO.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

I rarely have any favourites regarding Tolkien; I rather view all texts as a whole, but of the things I've read in HoMe and UT, which aren't that much:

Everything in UT is completely great. ;) No need to elaborate further there.

I didn't think that I (the first volume) was so interesting, knowing that it's mostly obsolete material, and the material that isn't obsolete was so similar to the published Silmarillion. Some things like the traveller Eriol were interesting though, and that cottage of lost play. ;)

The Fall of Gondolin in II is something to be mentioned though. I haven't read it in full myself, but according to others it's very good and exciting, and it can with some fairly rough modifications be viewed as not abandonded material, because Tolkien never rewrote it, and adds many pages to the legends of the First Age.

I think The Lost Road in V is interesting with it's linking of modern times to ancient times, and it would be a good topic for a thread, I think. I know that the idea was later rejected, but the conversations between Elendil and his son Herendil can, with some modifications (thinking of Herendil as Isildur, for example), I believe, even be regarded as not rejected by Tolkien because they don't seem to contradict much with his latest views concerning the Downfall, and the conversations seem to be a quite natural part of the build-up to the Downfall, thus adding more material to the Second Age, of which there isn't so much (at least in the amount of text) written.

The development of the conceptions of Númenor until the Akallabêth are also interesting to follow in V (The Fall of Númenor) and IX (The Drowning of Anadûnê).

I've read a little of the beginning of VI and Tolkien's first views of Bilbo's doings in LR are quite amusing (getting married and all that). I am sure it's very interesting to follow the development of LR in the LR HoMe's, and I know there might be some material that one may take as small additions to the final LR, and that makes them especially interesting. In VII one can find additional material about Tolkien's views of Lothlórien and it's conception of time, for example.

I've yet to read The Notion Club Papers in IX but I am sure it's interesting.

I haven't read anything of X yet but I know a bit about it and that it is a must read for every true Tolkien fan. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth and Myths Transformed are very important texts concerning Tolkien's latest conceptions of the mythology.

I have acquainted myself with the Wanderings of Húrin in XI, and I know that it can somehow fit in with the ruin of Doriath and the rest of the legends of the First Age, so it's great that it adds many pages to that Age. In Quendi and Eldar there is very interesting information about the very first Elves.

XII is an excellent volume in that it contains a lot of material that can be added to the mythology. Of the things I've read (or know) especially The History of the Akallabêth, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Durin's Folk, Of Dwarves and Men, The Shibboleth of Fëanor, The Problem of Ros, Last Writings, Of Lembas, The New Shadow, and Tal-Elmar all add more material, in some cases very important.

It will take a long time, but I intend to read the whole HoMe series, and everything else Tolkien ever wrote as well, probably. :) I am not just interested in reading everything that can be considered part of the latest mythology - following the development of the texts is also interesting and makes you understand Tolkien's works better.

[Bucky]

I & II - The Book of Lost Tales pt. 1 & 2 in the earliest writings that eventualy became The Simarillion.

I found it unreadable 20+ years ago.



III - The Lays of Beleriand contains Tolkiens unfinished poems for the story of Turin and Beren and Luthien. A truely amazing read.[/quote[

I find most of the poetry in The Hobbit & LOTR 'skipable material' & hard to read.




[quote]IV - The Shaping of Middle-earth contains the only full version of The Silmarillion plus the first map.

Full version of The Sil?

Please explain.

Also, how does it differ from the published version?
And, is it written in 'the extreme archaic style my father employed at the time' as CT says of BoLT?



V- The Lost Road and other writings. The Lost Road is a story Tolkien never completed but gave rise to the tale of Numenor. The book also contains all his writing on the Sil up until LOTR is started.[quote]

How many different writings on the Sil are there?


[quote]VI, VII, & VIII - The Return of the Shadow, The Treason of Isengard, and The War of the Ring all deal with the writing of LOTR.
IX - Sauron Defeated. The first half finishes LOTR plus the original last chapter. The second half contains The Notion Club Papers and the later Fall of Numenor.

I really have no interest in alternate versions of LOTR.




X & XI - Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels is all the later writings of the Sil from after LOTR till his death. My personal favorites.

Sounds interesting.
How much of it is The Sil in it's published form?




XII - The Peoples of Middle-earth deals with the appendix's of LOTR plus a few other later writings like the sequel to LOTR.

Folks say it's the best copy.




BTW, If I'm only interested in more information on M-E & not alternate versions, how good are the last 3 volumes?

I'm thinking I'll get #4, 10, 11 & 12.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

The three last volumes are very good for more information. I don't know if 4 is so good for that.

[Nóm]

from CT's Foreword to BoLT

The Book of Lost Tales was begun by my father in 1916-17 during the First War, when he was 25 years old, and left incomplete several years later. It is the starting-point, at least in fully-formed narrative, of the history of Valinor and Middle-earth; but before the Tales were complete he turned to the composition of long poems, the Lay of leithian in rhyming couplets (the story of beren and Luthien), and The Children of Hurin in alliterative verse. The prose form of the 'mythology' began again from a new starting point in a quite breif synopsis, or 'Sketch' as he called it, written in 1926 and expressly intended to provide the necessary background of knowledge for the understanding of the alliterative poem. The further written developement of the prose form proceeded from that 'Sketch' in a direct line to the version of 'The Silmarillion' which was nearing completion towards the end of 1937, when my father broke off to send it as it stood to Allen and Unwin in November of that year; butthere were also important side-branches and subordinate texts composed in the 1930s, as the Annals of Valinor and he Annals of beleriand[/i] (fragments of which are extant also in the Old English translations made by Aelfwine (Eriol)), the cosmological account called Ambarkanta, the Shape of the World, by Rumil, and the Lhammas or 'Account of Tongues', by Pengolod of Gondolin. Thereafter the history of the First Age was laid aside for many years, until [i[The Lord of the Rings[/i] was completed, but in years precedin its actual publication my father returned to 'The Silmarillion' and associated works with great vigour.

The Poems reffered to are found in HoME III

The 'Sketch' is found in HoME IV, as is the Quenta Noldorinwa which was an expansion following from that outline.

The next Silmarillion which was 'nearling completing towards the end of 1937' is 'Quenta Silmarillion' found in HoME V, but it is not a complete narrative as was Quenta Noldorinwa. This is the rewritting Tolkien was doing before he ceased working and got busy with LotR. There are Annals of Valinor and Beleriand with this.

The Silmarillion writings returned to after that had been set aside for years is found in HoME X and XI. These are the Later Quentas from the 50s. LQ1 from early fifties and LQ2 from late 50s. The later annals are given with it too. The Aman portion in X and the Beleriand part in XI.

One good thing about Later Quenta is that it contains some information that will be completely new to you, especially if you have interest in elves. There is a lot of interesting stuff on them in HoME X and XI. Or don't mind me, I don't know what I'm talking about with recomendations. hehe!

And, is it written in 'the extreme archaic style my father employed at the time' as CT says of BoLT?

ha! :D ... but no, the language in this is not like that in BoLT.

About BoLT being unreadable: I found it hardly readable several months ago, though not because of the archaic language but because I thought of it as, as has been said in this thread already, obsolete, and I also didn't want it mish-mashing with the later writings in my mind. But I'd recommend taking another look at it if you haven't in awhile... maybe you'll find that it can be enjoyed for what it is regardless of the what came of it? I only suggest this because when I returned to it after after only having read Fall of Gondolin (several months earlier) and the first 3 chapters of BoLT I (a few months earlier), I found I loved the thing... which was surpising, but perhaps it happens with others too?

I am sorry I did not notice your post sooner or I would have answered right away.

[Inderjit S]

Full version of The Sil

None of the other attempts at writing the Quenta Silmarillion, were complete, Tolkien quite someway through each text. (HoME 5, 10, 11.) Tolkien does have a detailed Annals accompanying each, though. The Grey Annals (HoME 11) forms a large part of the Published Silmarillion .

BTW, If I'm only interested in more information on M-E & not alternate versions, how good are the last 3 volumes

The Quenta's and Annals of HoME 5,10 and 11 were all used to write the Published Silmarillion. HoME 4 contains some interesting and original maps, as well as early versions of the Quenta Silmarillion. HoME 5 contains a wholly independent story named The Lost Road which is (in a nutshell) about Numenor. It also contains the earliest info. on the S.A and Numenor, as well as the Latter Quenta Silmarillion and Annals of Beleriand. You seem dismissive about info. on early versions of LoTR, so I don't know how interested you will be in rejected/early ideas in regards to the F.A, which are basically what 4 and 5 are about.

HoME 10 and 11, are what made up a lot of the Published Silmarillion with some new info., but also contains some rejected ideas, so be careful. They also contain some great essays, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, a collection of essays grouped together and called 'Myths Transformed' (HoME 10) and Wanderings of Hurin and Quendi and Eldar both contain a lot of original work, hardly seen before. HoME 12, is divided with work on the Appendix and a serious of essays by Tolkien, in his latter years, and are v.interesting and informative.

The LoTR volumes may not interest you, but do not immediately discount them. The latter part of HoME 9, the last 'LoTR' volume has some interesting info. on non-LoTR things and we get some maps of M-E below Gondor/Mordor in HoME 7.

[King Aragorn]

What's HOME?

I suppose that you can get background info from other books like the Silmarillion, Book of Lost Tales, etc.

[Supernita]

HOME is History of Middle Earth. I don't actually have them all yet, all I have is Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2.. but as far as I know, it's just TONS of backstory. I've heard it pretty much explains everything. It's 12 (or 13, with the index I think) books, but you can buy them all separately or in a 3 volume set. I've been having a really hard time finding them in stores, but they sound like they'll be really interesting to read. I think History of Middle Earth says it all.. I'm hoping it's exactly that.. a history explaining all these little questions we all have. I think everyone that always answers all these little questions has read HOME... so I'm hoping when I'm done reading them, I'll be just as smart :P (keep dreaming Nita)

[King Aragorn]

I've started to read The Silmarillion and The Book of Lost Tales, but I have never been able to finish them. Probably because I have to check them out from the library.

[Supernita]

I've been buying all the books I can find related to LOTR.. but I'm only just over half way through Two Towers so far.. I haven't had much time to read in the last 6 months. I'm excited to start reading The Sil, Unfinished Tales and all the others. I'm sure I'll be posting on here a lot more when I start those.. heh. I'll have a question or two every day. I hope all you guys don't mind :P

[baragund]

King Aragorn and Supernita,

I have had pretty good success finding all of the books in the HOME series on amazon.com. What's more, you can save a bit of money by buying them used. I have been able to buy used hard cover editions of the whole series and pay around $10 each with shipping. Paperback editions would be even less expensive.

And the HOME series is more than back story. It is practically all of the drafts and iterations JRRT went through in creating his mythology. You can see the evlolution of the stories from the time he was a teenager up until his death. Interesting stuff but MAN, if you thought the published Silmarillion had a lot of names and places you had to know, just multiply it by, oh, 3 or so and you will have an idea. Like the stories, the languages JRRT created went through quite an evolution.

[GuardianRanger]

And since I started this thread with a Hobbit question and because I'm reading it...I highly recommend The Annotated Hobbit by JRRT and with annotations by Douglas A. Anderson. To me, it seems like the HOME of the Hobbit, if you know what I mean.

[HLGStrider]

I don't know if you have enough opinions or not, but I always give mine whether it is wanted or not. . .

Mine is that Middle Earth has been around and had enough cultures that they would've had folklore as well as history. This was obviously what was being told. I doubt they had a set of Grimm Brothers, but they would've had fairy tales.

I remember reading that there are dozens of versions of Cinderella from dozens of cultures, including China. Middle Earth would be no less diverse. There were such things as princesses. Princesses always have appeal. There were bound to be stories of them.

[GuardianRanger]

Don't worry HLGStrider, there is room for all opinions.

I agree with your assessment. It just seemed "fairy-taleish" (if that's a word.) I know that Tolkien hadn't written The Lord Of The Rings yet, so he probably hadn't figured that The Hobbit would be part of a great mythology. And since the book was written (initally) for children, I can see why the line was included. I guess it just stuck out at me because I know the bigger picture.

[Supernita]

About getting the books off amazon or used or whatever.... yea that hasn't been working. I'm trying to get a set of all 13 (wth index) matching.. which seems to be impossible now. I've seen a picture of them, so I know they exist, but I've gone to 14 different bookstores, at least 5 different sites (including amazon, barnes&noble, chapters.. etc), and I've even contacted harper collins directly.. and NOBODY can tell me how to get the matching set. I'm talking about the ones with the picture on the front and the title in the black box... seems to be popular, however I can only find 1 & 2 with that design. I don't want hardcover because they're too heavy, and I don't like buying used books. I may be picky, but I generally get what I want :)

[Supernita]

Well after I posted that, I went back to barnesandnoble.com and found 3 more.. so it's closer, but not quite all of them. I also found a few more on ebay, and I've contacted the seller inquiring about the condition of the books, because the price he has them at is almost as expensive as buying them new. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and hoping it all works out.

I just realized this thread has gone totally off topic. Was it because of me? I'll have to look back and check :)

[Inderjit S]

Tolkien hadn't written The Lord Of The Rings yet, so he probably hadn't figured that The Hobbit

'The Hobibt', nonetheless, has some links with Tolkiens Middle-Earth at the point it was written. Gondolin, Moria, Elrond and Durin are all mentioned-as well as Aman.

LoTR was a product of fans of 'The Hobbit' desire to hear more stories about Hobbits. Tolkien was able to inegrate it within his mythology.

[Lhunithiliel]

As far as i know,the letters are a separate work and are not mingled with the HOME series.
I've only taken a brief glimpse at them once - I had to return them in an hour or so,but even in that short time I literally consumed them:)
I think the letters are a must for any Tolkien fan and I'll be getting my own copy very soon.
You read the Letter in just one hour ?!!! :eek:

I personally think that this collection should be "swallowed" in small bits. ;)
Together with H.Carpenther's Biography of the author, the Letters are the main and most reliable source of information about the true and actual Tolkien's concept over and on his own writings.
The rest is only interpretations and assumptions.
Therefore, I think that the Letters is a read to consumed very slowly and carefully. They are a great reference source. :cool:

[Grond]

...HoME 10 and 11, are what made up a lot of the Published Silmarillion with some new info., but also contains some rejected ideas, so be careful. They also contain some great essays, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, a collection of essays grouped together and called 'Myths Transformed' (HoME 10) and Wanderings of Hurin and Quendi and Eldar both contain a lot of original work, hardly seen before. HoME 12, is divided with work on the Appendix and a serious of essays by Tolkien, in his latter years, and are v.interesting and informative.

The LoTR volumes may not interest you, but do not immediately discount them. The latter part of HoME 9, the last 'LoTR' volume has some interesting info. on non-LoTR things and we get some maps of M-E below Gondor/Mordor in HoME 7.I was just wondering who "rejected' the "ideas" and how you came to that conclusion. None of the Silmarillion was published and CT put his best face of the accumulated body of work of his father... but who can say what JRRT would have published had he lived??? To me, the published Sil is no more or less authoritative than any of the other later published Sil... all because none of it has the author's stamp of approval.

[Grond]

But you can't have it both ways. The published Silmarillion also says,from the Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
...Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.(emphasis added)yet we have later writings from the author that state,from Morgoth's Ring
Orcs.

Their nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system.
(1). As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth / Sauron, rebel against him, or criticize him.
(2). ? Therefore they must be corruptions of something prexisting.
(3). But Men had not yet appeared, when the Orcs already existed. Aule constructed the Dwarves out of his memory of the Music; but Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor so as to allow the independence of the Orcs. (Not unless Orcs were ultimately remediable, or could be amended and 'saved'?) It also seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his king that state heritable.(2) [Added later: This latter must (if a fact) be an act of Eru.] In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but are 'tinkered' with by Melkor.So from this very much later narrative we can see that the author had not "decided" what he would have "published" as the origing for Orcs. CT took his best shot. I still stand by my assertion that we'll never really know what a finished Silmarillion legendarium would look like... because the author hadn't written, compiled and edited it into a finished product for our consumption.

Don't get me wrong... I love what we have... but I'm not sure with what degree of certainty anyone can say what was fully accepted or rejected by the author... since a final version was never compiled by the author. Just MHO of course.

[Grond]

...I just don't think Inderjit was trying to say any one version is THE version of JRRT, but I guess he can answer that when he comes around.If that is indeed what he is saying... then I'm in total agreeement. There are most certainly certainties in the works (cute huh??) There are things that were apparently finally etched in stone by the author and, yet, there was much that was left in limbo. CT giving us the Silmarillion did not create a canon from which we can quote with any real certainty on many issues pertaining to the mythology. That is all I'm trying to say. Just as we can't be sure of which ideas were totally rejected and those which weren't... except for the directions and opinions put forth by his son CT (who certainly knew as well as anybody where his father was heading) and what we can glean from the author's letters.

Now... have I really confused you???? ;)

[Barliman Butterbur]

I have heard that Ronald (J.R.R.) wrote a story set in the 4th age about a man finding a lost road somewhere in England and it leads to Middle-earth. Can anyone confirm this and if possible, tell me if it is worth looking into and purchasing?

This is what I found on the Internet:

===============================


The Lost Road and Other Writings, Volume V

"Volume V, The Lost Road and Other Writings: Language and Legend before the Lord of the Rings, includes Tolkien’s writings on the First Age up to 1937, early drafts of the Legend of the Fall of Númenor, and the beginnings of a novel, The Lost Road, an abandoned time travel story. The Lost Road attempts to connect our history with that of Middle-earth by providing links between European legends (Beowulf, Atlantis and the Irish tales of Tir-nan-og) with incidents in the history of Middle-earth. A 20th century English father and son, who are the unknowing descendents of Elendil, develop the ability to reexperience their past lives and live the history of Europe and Middle-earth backwards until they experience the fall of Númenor/Atlantis."

===============================

Here is the source (http://www.greenmanreview.com/book/book_tolkien_home.html).

(What a lovely idea: that somewhere on Earth there is a hidden road leading to Middle-earth!)

Barley

[Barliman Butterbur]

Thanks for that in-depth explanation, Walter! It seems I'd better start tackling HoME. I'd been avoiding it, because I thought that it was a collection of "mere" unfinished drafts, the finished product being, of course, LOTR. But it begins to appear that I've been denying myself some great pleasures!

Which volumes do you recommend I start on?

Barley

[Barliman Butterbur]

...For more details maybe see http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?The__History__of__Middle-earth

Thanks for that link!:)

Barley

[Arvedui]

Somebody (I think it was Grond) once adviced that HoME should be read 'backwards.'
Then it would be something like sequence:
- Vol 12,
- Vol 10 + 11,
- Vol 6-9,
- Vol 5,
- Vol 4,
- Vol 1-3.

Worked well for me, but you may have other experiences.
Good luck anyway.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Somebody (I think it was Grond) once adviced that HoME should be read 'backwards.'...

There's a novel (no pun intended!;)) idea: on the theory that the later tomes reflect the most developed writings?

Barley

[Amarie Veanne]

Concerning the HoME series, I've first started to read the Peoples, because taht was the only book in the store when I went shopping :rolleyes: later I've acquired some other titles, but I still miss six titles (the books are very rare here where I live,apparently there's a couple of copies in the whole state :().
I found it quite hard to read out of order, because of the numberless references to later works, especially BoLt, and after some time it gets really frustrating... So, as for me, I advice reading by order, if possible... ;)

[Illuin]

I am seeing that some find the HoME books (including Unfinished Tales) difficult to read. Back in college, I used to tutor math and folks would come to me and say; “Ya know, I just don’t understand calculus; it just doesn’t make any sense”. And I would say; “How is your algebra and trigonometry?” They would say; “Well, it could be better”. I would reply; Well, calculus is actually very simple IF you‘ve got your algebra and trig down :rolleyes: .

The same analogy applies to the HoME series. If you have read The Silmarillion, Lord Of The Rings, The Hobbit, and now also The Children Of Hurin - and know these books well (not just LOTR and The Hobbit); the HoME series is almost intuitive, and barely even requires any thought. It’s just more detailed info on what you already know (or should know before you dive into HoME) - and it’s actually very enjoyable. If you expect to comprehend HoME, and you haven’t read (thoroughly read) The Silmarillion especially, you will indeed be a lost tale :) .

[Thorin]

"Morgoth's Ring" and "War of the Jewels" (HoME X and XI I believe) are a MUST read for Sil fans. Out of the 5 HoME books I've read, these two are the most informative and interesting and give TONNES of information about timelines when the Valar came to Middle Earth, the awakening of the Elves, the wars and many other juicy bits of info.

Highly recommended

And also the 'Fall of Gondolin' narrative in Book of Lost Tales II

[Illuin]

Yeah, I think those are the best HoME volumes by far as well; unless you consider Unfinished Tales part of that group; which is my favorite of the so-called reference material. The “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth” in Morgoth’s Ring is really good stuff.