Morgoth vs. Sauron

[Mandella]

Which one is a more credible foe to all that is good and right?

I'd say Sauron myself.

In the books Melkor/Morgoth comes across like a spoiled brat who goes crying off to his balrog's and Sauron with the first sign of trouble! The one time he openly attacks a prepared opponent (Finwe doesn't count), he only triumphs because his opponent doesn't have his godly endurance, not because of his might or power.

A pitiful excuse for a Vala. :p

Sauron isn't that much of an Evil Overlord (TM) himself, but you have to admit that he beats his old boss in terms of cunning and longevity. Though not probably much stronger in terms of physical power than say, a Balrog or a strong Dragon, his Malignant Schemes (TM) usually worked at least partially.

[Gothmog]

Hmmm. Lets see, Morgoth had virtually the whole of Beleriand under his control and could not be defeated until the Valar and their army (and Air Force in the form of Earendil and the Birds) came to contest with him. Sauron on the other hand had part of middle earth under control, was defeated first by an alliance of Elves and Men which could have vanquished him then if the Ring had been destroyed. He was finally vanquished by two Hobbits and the pitiful remnant of a Ring bearer with a little help from a Maia who was not allowed to use his full power in the war.

So I would say that going by the power that each had to begin with they were on a par with each other.

[Gloer]

Tolkien puts that Sauron was behind Morgoth in evil inly because he once served another (Morgoth).

I seems in some aspects that Sauron might have developed a purer evil than his master. Morgoth wanted to be called the Lord.
Now Sauron didn't mind that but it ment him nothing.

Morgoth couldn't lose his face in front of his captains (Sauron) and he had to fight Fingolfin. Sauron instead didn't give a damn about losing face when surrendering to Ar- Pharazon that he considered inferior, a mere man. Sauron went further.

What Morgoth did was plant seeds of evil amongst his foes and make then do evil things though they had good intentions.
What Sauron did was turn his foes into his allies and willing evil servants: Ar-Pharazon, Saruman, The Nazgul...

Again Sauron went further because he saw no need to be called the lord. He knew it anyway as in the cases above. There is something weak and humane in wanting to be recognized the way Morgoth did. He claimed to be The Ruler of The Fates of Arda (to Hurin). He had a sort of sense of honour. That is not evil enough!

[Mandella]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Hmmm. Lets see, Morgoth had virtually the whole of Beleriand under his control and could not be defeated until the Valar and their army (and Air Force in the form of Earendil and the Birds) came to contest with him. Sauron on the other hand had part of middle earth under control, was defeated first by an alliance of Elves and Men which could have vanquished him then if the Ring had been destroyed. He was finally vanquished by two Hobbits and the pitiful remnant of a Ring bearer with a little help from a Maia who was not allowed to use his full power in the war.

So I would say that going by the power that each had to begin with they were on a par with each other.

Lol! Morgoth had much power, but he couldn't put it to good use! All those dragons and balrogs and he couldn't even break the siege of his stronghold for quite some time!

He was also a petty little scum. The way he took personal offense at Hurin's defiance doesn't speak well for good ole' Morgy. He was fortunate to have the much more capable Sauron, Gothmog and Glaurung serving him.

At least when Sauron was forced to fight personally, he took Gil-Galad and Isildur's father (Curses! I can't remember his name...) with him, whereas the great Melkor hid like a coward until Tulkas got hold of him.

[Moonbeams]

Hmmm....
Morgoth was a Valar, Sauron was a Maia.
Morgoth was batteling other Valar, Sauron was fighting mortal men and elves.
Morgoth was ruling almost half of Arda, Sauron had Mordor.
Morgoth created orcs, dragons, and curropted other Maia, Sauron improved orcs, and curropted humans (which as we all know, are soooo hard to currupt...)
Morgoth destroyed Gondolin, the hidden, greatest city of Elves, Sauron couldn't find Lothlorien after all his years on ME.
Morgoth stole the Silmarills, Sauron stole mitril.

Morgoth was a true dark lord. Sauron was his shadow.
There is no doubt in me that Morgoth was greater in use of his powers than Sauron.

[Beren Erchanion]

Right on Moonbeams;) Sauron is just the remaining of Melkor He surrender in front of the Numenorean (of course he cheat em very well) he didn't lose...he SURRENDER. Melkor cannot be beaten by somebody else than Tulkas (a very cool Vala:D ) and got to be tight whit his good old magic chain right away... Otherwise he'd be back again and again. Melkor never surrender.

[Dengen-Goroth]

let's not bring in Tulkas. Come on, the Valar were in despair, for Melkor was defeating them all, alone! His seeds of untrust brewed into horrible conflict and could never be destroyed! He forged alliances withthe likes of Ungoliant, brought about the downfall of the two trees! Held all three Silmarils! He had Beleriand under his control! He created the creatures wich served within Sauron's forces. he defeated the Elves when they were at the height of their power, not when they were already beginning to dwindle in the Secnd Age. Melkor not only corrupted Men, but Elves(then made them orcs), and Maiar (Balrogs, Sauron)

Now Sauron, he filed to hold his great stronghold (name slipped my mind) for Melkor, he was beaten and fled to Melkor. Sauron was defeated by Ar-Pharazan(And who did he build a temple for in Numenor...Melkor, his Lord), then the last alliance, nver got more then Mordor and Dol Goldur. Couldn't even enslave the Elves with their rings, and was defeated by two hobbits and Gollum! Come on, it's very simple who had many more acheivments.

The Valar sent their forces in despair, fearing that they would fall at Melkor's hand, for Sauron they sent over five Maia, not a geat force and fleet of Elves, Ealges and the like. Furthermore, out of those five, only five completed the task given! Now, who is better?

[Gloer]

and better than Sauron indeed. Morgoth still had a lot of humane desires and weakness left in him. He felt obliged by the challenge of Finwe and defiance of Hurin. He had a sense of honour. And desire to be called the Lord.

Sauron was more evil than his master. There is hardly nothing that one can do to battle against him. If you are stronger in arms he will tempt your pride, call you the Lord and corrupt you to follow your own ambitions too far. If you are weaker - he will enslave you and manipulate you. Maybe he did this to his master too... "Yes, mr. Prime minister, but...".

And he is indestructible. Unless you destroy the ring. And to destroy it you have to deny all desires of your own. Otherwise the ring willuse those desires to corrupt you. Only a very humble bearer could do this.

Ultimately Sauron was defeated by the strength of Gollums evil desire to have the ring even when it was not possible for he was too weak for the ring. In a way the power of the ring was behind the very downfall of Sauron. Gollum wanted the ring forever - and got it.

[Curufinwe]

Morgoth would and could never die really because he was only thought in the end. Iluvater's thought.

[Atticus]

Ok....look at it this way, They had to place Morgoth outside the walls of the world. They had to throw a ring (albeit powerful) into a volcano to get rid of Sauron*. hmm.

That shows who is more powerful. Morgoth will see the light (or dark, as he prefers) of Arda at the End of Days when he is let loose for the last battle. Sauron's fate is not said.

Also, ponder this, it is said in the Silmarillion that all shall make a great music for Illuvitar after the end has come. Do you think, despite their evils, that even Melkor and Sauron, despite their evils, will be let in to sing? They should, for they had a great part in the histories. What about the Orcs? Are only sources tell us they are merely the Children of Illuvitar corrupted. And the Hobbits? What about the Dwarves? The sources of Hobbits are not known. And the Drawves were created by Aule (but were given life by Illuvitar.) But it is also said elsewhere, that the Drawves believe they shall help Aule rebuild Arda after the end.


Anyway, I went way off subject, but this pertains at least to the fate of our two villians of the moment.

Thank you.
*(although, I am sure I read that he was still in existence, but just a small shadow of a spirit, without power)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Moonbeams
Hmmm....
Morgoth was a Valar, Sauron was a Maia.
Morgoth was batteling other Valar, Sauron was fighting mortal men and elves.
Morgoth was ruling almost half of Arda, Sauron had Mordor.
Morgoth created orcs, dragons, and curropted other Maia, Sauron improved orcs, and curropted humans (which as we all know, are soooo hard to currupt...)
Morgoth destroyed Gondolin, the hidden, greatest city of Elves, Sauron couldn't find Lothlorien after all his years on ME.
Morgoth stole the Silmarills, Sauron stole mitril.

Morgoth was a true dark lord. Sauron was his shadow.
There is no doubt in me that Morgoth was greater in use of his powers than Sauron. I was going to make a long post about how great and evil a foe my boss, Melkor (he hated being called Morgoth) was, but Moonbeams has already summed up everything I would have said. Good job!!:D

[gil-estel]

Whats suprised most bout this post is the fact it was posted.

In the beginning was manwe and melkor-both COEVAL in all things but melkor had the greater might and power(or something along those lines).

Don't remember reading bout sauron when discussing the Valar, probably cause he wasn't one!!!

[Aldarion]

It's notable that Gandalf seems firm in his belief that Sauron's demise could not be forseen were he to regain possession of the Ring.

Does this suggest that, unlike Morgoth, Sauron wearing his Ring could never be overcome even by a force sent from Valinor?

Or would the Valar abandon Middle Earth to eternal damnation?

Could Sauron even threaten their lofty existence and that of Ingwë, Olwë, Finarfin and their folk so long resident in apparent bliss and detached from mortal lands?

By the way, what's been going on in Eldamar all this time? Apart from the sending of the Istari, there appears to have been no involvement by the Powers in Middle Earth's constant instabilities. Is Aman really rather a dull place where people do nought but wander around in a noble reverie?

Back to the subject: Sauron put much of his being into the Ring. The posts above acknowledge his comparative status re Melkor, Manwë etc; I've even seen a comment questioning Sauron's potential capacity to exert his overlordship upon any extant balrogs - were they not corrupted Maiar and hence coëval with him?

One can only surmise that, somehow the Ring could endow Sauron with greater power than was native to him. Tolkien's message seems to be that with the Ring, Sauron would be utterly indomitable and yet without it, his frailty was so clearly demonstrated by the manner of his ultimate fall at the hands of two hobbits, a secret strategy and the strength of men.

[gil-estel]

Can't say i'd agree.
Sauron WITH the Ring was defeated by a combined force of Elves and Men. Melkor/Morgoth was not defeated by a combined force of Elves and Men when this group contained some of the greatest beings to live.

Also after reading the Sil.. It is made clear that in the beginning the 9 aratar contained Morgoth not Sauron-he was merely a servant of the Enemy, not the Enemy himself

[Curufinwe]

The Aratar consists of 8 Valar not 9.

[gil-estel]

Nope.
Not being picky but in the Ainulindae(ignore spelling) it says that originally 9 were the Valar that made up the Aratar but now they number 8 since Melkor isn't counted amongst them anymore

[Eonwe]

Well as far as Sauron surrendering to the Numenorean army of Ar-Pharazon, Melkor let Feanor slam the door in his face... So let's call it even

I think overall Morgoth performed more evil, but Sauron had a huge evil influence on the first-third age.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Eonwe
Well as far as Sauron surrendering to the Numenorean army of Ar-Pharazon, Melkor let Feanor slam the door in his face... So let's call it even

I think overall Morgoth performed more evil, but Sauron had a huge evil influence on the first-third age. I'll give you the second and third ages since Melkor was in the void in chains. But Sauron was merely a servant and crony of Melkor during all the battles before. And let's not forget that Sauron was offered a pardon by you Eonwe and he wanted to repent. But, when you told him he would have to return to Aman and humble himself before Manwe, he fled like a scared chicken. That's straight out of the book and out of your mouth Eonwe. At least your namesake's mouth in the Silmarillion that is.

[Eonwe]

yep I was dumb enough to think we could talk him into coming back to Aman without escaping. But Aule didn't make another chain of Againor (or whatever I can't remember the spelling).

You are just partial to your master Morgoth right?:D

[Grond]

As far as the Grondmeister being partial to Melkor...... that would be correct.:D
You wouldn't be partial to Sauron because you happened to let him slip away would you?:)

[Eonwe]

Well I have many more images of Sauron being particularly nasty in the world. Including the one that Manwe saw with his very own eyes: Sauron defying the lightning and laughing on top of his iron temple to Melkor in Numenor!:D

[Grond]

Yes Eonwe......... Right before the temple collapsed and the island sunk taking Sauron's body to the bottom of the sea with it... Right?;)

You'll also notice that it wasn't a Sauron Temple either, it was a Melkor Temple!!:p

[Eonwe]

Hey if Illuvatar hadn't intervened, who knows what would have happened HAHA:p

[Bucky]

I think it's absurd to think Sauron was an equal or superior to Morgoth.

Moonbeams just about sums it up.

As somebody mentioned Sauron at the end of the first age, I always wondered how he got away when Eonwe refused his pardon.
Did he just walk away as Eonwe waved bye bye?

[Tar-Steve]

Originally posted by Grond
You'll also notice that it wasn't a Sauron Temple either, it was a Melkor Temple!!:p

CASE CLOSED! (Give it up Sauron people!) :D

[Eonwe]

um ok just to clear things up:

1) I am not a Sauron people :)
2) I think that Morgoth was much more powerful, I am not that dumb. I think if he hadn't given so much of his power to other creatures (like Carcharoth, dragons, etc) he would have been much more of an opponent in the War of Wrath.
3) I think that Sauron was evil for a very long time, consistently so, didn't fall asleep when it was important, was much better with a weapon (see Grond, see Grond miss again and again, see Melkor use his foot instead), and at least to me, doesn't seem like so much of a bumbling idiot (the only part I think shows Morgoth's cunning was his words to Hurin)
4) Please stop making it seem like it was my fault Sauron escaped at the end of the first age. I was there, like I said without another chain of againor we couldn't keep hold of him. (poor excuse, but its all I got):)

Ok I give up:D

[salva]

Sauron and Morgoth... They just were different. Morgoth was way more powerful that Sauron, but he couldn't aknowledge some feelings and things from other living things, and thus he couldn't use all his power to defeat them. Sauron was had much less power, but he was way more intelligent, he knew how to cheat men.

It's a matter of Evil and Power.

[Tar-Steve]

"Join the Sauron people! .... Feelin' free feelin' free!"

"Sauron people got no reason, no reason to live"



(Guess the original songs AND their authors and win ... well ... nothin!!)

I tried to contrive one for "People of the South Wind" but it came out sounding stupid! (Not good (ROTFLOL :D :D ) like the others!!)

In this world you have to ask yourself: Are you a people person or a Sauron-people person?

[Eonwe]

:) :) Sauron people = Village People

Ok this doesn't really count as a post.

[Mad Adski]

When Melkor was around, there was alot more power of light around in Middle Earth. Sauron was a weaker enemy for a weaker Middle Earth. And it seems pretty clear that the folks of undying lands didn't really care about what happened on Middle Earth by the Third Age of the Sun.

As a Maia, Sauron could never hope to reach the full extent of Valor power, ring or no ring.

They were enemies for different times - you can't really compare them.

Mad Adski.

[Bucky]

>>> (Sauron) doesn't seem like so much of a bumbling idiot (the only part I think shows
Morgoth's cunning was his words to Hurin)

How about his plan on the children of Hurin?

How about biding his time in a build-up of force to break the seige of Angband?

How about the seeds he sowed in secret to get the Silmarils & drive a wedge between the Noldorian Princes, not to mention getting them to leave Valinor?

What about using Ungoliant & then escaping from her?

What about creating Orcs?
And Dragons?
And then Flying Dragons?

How about getting Ulfang & Co. to turn on Maedhros in the 5th battle?
And Maeglin to rat out Gondolin?

How about getting all those Maiar to follow his evil path?

Sauron didn't even hook up with Smaug or the balrog (Durin's Bane) when he was in the same 'neighborhood'.....

[Eonwe]

HAHA!:)

OK OK Morgoth was the best ok!:)

I think if you put Sauron's plots on here you would go on a few pages, eh? In the end the oath of Feanor did much of the work for Morgoth, although I suppose you would say Morgoth plotted this too? :)

How about:

Sauron changes the minds of most of the men of Numenor, so much so that they start to worship Melkor and attack Valinor?

How about he gets Celebrimbor to make rings for all of the free peoples of ME and then manages to make slaves of Men who wear them, makes the elves hide them and their works are ruined when the one is destroyed, kills many of the dwarf kings and their hoards with rings and their greed?

With the witch king he reduces Arnor to a wasteland and nearly defeats the remnant of the Numenoreans in the north?

He corrupts Saruman, makes Denethor so depressed he sets himself on fire.

Even after being defeated by the Last Alliance, he manages to rise again to harass the third age?

Its not as impressive as Morgoth's list but...he was a Maia

He had much less power than Morgoth, could not create creatures of his own...