Prototype Debate: Was Feanor Proven Right?

[Snaga]

Some of you may know the debating is over in the TTF Debating Tournament, and we are looking for a new format of debating that is maybe a little less 'debating for the sake of victory' and more 'debating to learn'.

Walter has suggested a new format, so I thought we should try it out and see how it goes.

Here are the rules:

(1) I, the host, will post a topic.
(2) There will be two teams, each taking one side of the debate. People may put themselves forward to be one of the teams. (ie you choose which side of the topic you are debating).
(3) Each team will have 5 members. When both teams have 5 members the debate may commence.
(4) The team that was filled first, posts first.
(5) The debate lasts exactly one week from the first post. (Extensions may be applied and will be granted at the discretion of the host, if both sides agree and there seems to be more to be said.)
(6) The host will appoint four other judges to assist him in voting for the winning team. Whichever team gets the most votes wins (obviously!)
(7) Each judge may also nominate one 'star debator'.
(8) Normal standards of behaviour in the debate apply... try to be friendly and honest at all times.:)

Ok? Good.... so here's the topic

Published Silmarillion - The Flight of the Noldor
Then turning to the herald he [Feanor] cried: "Say this to the Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set a greater fire in me than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!"

Were the (underlined) words of Feanor proven true?

OK... pick your sides. The Noldorin Team will argue 'Yes'; The Valarin Team will argue 'No':D

[Elfarmari]

I would like to take the Noldorin side, if anyone else ever joins. . .

Personally, I definitely prefer this type of debate, where you can pick your own side.

[celebdraug]

i will side with the The Noldorin side!
Where is everybody anyway? :confused:

[Snaga]

There seems a distinct lack of interest. Tis a shame.

[celebdraug]

There seems a distinct lack of interest. Tis a shame.
i know! *shakes head!*
Well, if i swap sides (tho i dont want to but if no one else is going to show up......) me and Elfarmari (that is if s/he still is participating) can battle it out one-on-one!

[Elfarmari]

yes, I'm still interested in participating (I'm a 'she'), although my computer access is spotty right now as internet browser at home freezes when I open the Tolkien Forum (and a few other random websites). I would not be able to check or post every day, so perhaps if the debate were extended it might work better?

[celebdraug]

How long do you think the deadline should be? im on most of the time so its no problemo wid me! :)

[Khôr’nagan]

I'll take the side of the Valar. They seem to be quite outnumbered in this debate thus far, so I might as well even the odds a bit.

I'm okay with any deadline. I typically only post about this time of night (for me it's 8:14 PM right now. I usually post from 8 until the early morning hours). So when does the fun begin?

[Elfarmari]

deadline. . . um, 10 days? two weeks? It's hard for me to say how often I will be able to post. Right now it wouldn't be more than a few times a week. Should we wait and try to get one more person to even up the sides?

[celebdraug]

thats fine, tho not many people are willing at the moment...

[Ithrynluin]

I guess I could join Khôr’nagan and defend the Valarin side just for fun. Shall we have a two on two debate then (the guys against the gals ;))?

[Finduilas]

I hope I'm not "breaking" the number of debators here (two-on-two...). I'd like to take the Valarian side, that is "No".
Maybe one more person should sign up? Or I may help with the judging if noone comes?

[Elfarmari]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm fine with having 2 on 3, as long as we actually get to debate! Whenever everyone is ready to start is fine with me.

[Ithrynluin]

Take my place, Finduilas. I don't feel like debating, and I don't have the time either.

[Finduilas]

I'd be honoured to. :)
Thanks.
So, is there someone still willing to debate? :)
If yes, when are we starting and are there going to be more members to join?

[celebdraug]

Ready!
Are the teams the same?

[Khôr’nagan]

Wow, this was so long ago...

But yes, I'm ready (as I'll ever be).

Is Snaga aware that this idea has been revived? If not, perhaps someone should PM him...

[Elfarmari]

I'm not sure if Snaga is aware of this or not, I'll pm him. . . . For me personally, it would be best if we do not start debating until next wednesday (May 5) at the earliest, preferably May 7. This would also give all of us time to do some research and give some thought to our arguments. Does anyone have a preference for time?

[Finduilas]

Well, May 9 will be somehow better since I have a birthday on May 7....:)

Is it fine with you?

[Elfarmari]

I have an idea. . . let's just say we'll start debating this wednesday, May 12, and see how this goes?
so, I think the teams are:
Khôr’nagan and Finduilas on the Valarin side
and
me and celebdraug on the Noldorin side.

should we set a time limit? I would prefer something longer than a week, so we have more time to think about our posts in between. Should we say two weeks? or is that too long? 10 days?

Snaga said he is busy, and hasn't responded to my pm about judges, but I guess we can worry about that later. . .

[Finduilas]

Ok, the teams are fine.
And about the time limit, I guess that from 12th May till 22nd May will be just as fine too. :)

So if the other members agree, I believe there's no further arrangement to be made....except the judges that is. :)

I'll try to persuade GG or Lhun, or Manveru but I'm not sure whether they'll agree....lack of time... :rolleyes:

Opinions?

And let's finally get this debate started! :D

[Elfarmari]

Published Silmarillion - The Flight of the Noldor
Then turning to the herald he [Feanor] cried: "Say this to the Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set a greater fire in me than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!"
Was Feanor proven right? I say yes.


1.And it may be that Eru has set a greater fire in me than thou knowest.
A smith without peer in the works of his hands, Feanor created the Silmarils, the holy gems capturing the light of the Two Trees. From these jewels sprung all the events which came to be called the Silmarillion. Feanor, called the Mightiest of the Noldor, completely changed the future of his people, for good or ill.

In Feanor was indeed set a greater fire than in any other of the Eldar even in their days of youth. Several episodes show this clearly.

. . the eldest of the sons of Finwe, and the most beloved. Curufinwe was his name, but by his mother he was called Feanor, Spirit of Fire. . . .
. . .in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finwe: 'Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Feanor.'
After Melkor's first flight from Valinor, he came to Formenos where Feanor was exiled, and tried to persuade Feanor to flee with him, saying among other things that the Silmarils would not be safe from the Valar.
But his cunning overreached his aim; his words touched too deep, and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Feanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame Feanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: ‘Get me gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers of Ea. Then Melkor departed in shame. . . Who else ever dared to treat Melkor like this? And who else, even of the Valar, perceived the thought of Melkor so clearly?
Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke.This is said of none other of the Quendi.

2. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. That this was true cannot be disputed. The hosts of the Valar ultimately followed Feanor into Middle-earth to defeat Melkor.

And now for perhaps the most contentious point:
3. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it.
Unfortunately, there is no record of the reactions of the Valar to the actions of the Noldor. We only know this: When Earendil reached Valinor and delivered his Embassy, the Valar completely reversed their previous actions and decisions, pardoning the Noldor and sending a host to defeat Melkor. The hurt that Feanor did to Melkor was not delivered personally – after the Formenos incident, they never met again. However, Feanor set into motion all of the events which caused hurt to the Foe of the Valar.

It was the words of Feanor to Fingolfin which first exposed Melkor for what he was: an unrepentant evil-doer, losing Melkor his place in Valinor and forcing him to flee. Feanor also created the Silmarils, the stealing of which earned Melkor the undying hate of the Noldor, which ultimately, through Earendil, brought about his destruction. The most significant thing that Feanor did, however, was the Oath which he and his sons swore, and the Kinslaying of Alqualonde, and the resulting Doom of Mandos. Feanor's fiery spirit and stubbornness made him unwilling to change course, even with the foreknowledge of defeat:
And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth thrice, and laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father.
This ensured that the loss of the Silmarils would never be forgotten. While these things worked often to the advantage of Morgoth, they also caused the hurts which he suffered. Here are three events which were caused ultimately by Feanor.

A. Melkor's fight with Ungoliant. This fight, resulting in Melkor's inability to change his shape, resulted from the Silmarils, which were made by guess who – Feanor!

B. Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth. This duel, after which Melkor never dared to come forth to battle, resulted in Melkor receiving seven wounds, a stab in his foot, and having his face marred by Thorondor. Fingolfin came to ME because he did not wish to be separated from his people, who had been persuaded to leave Valinor by guess who – Feanor!

C. Beren and Luthien's exploits This resulted in Melkor having his lieutenant (Sauron) disgraced, having himself be disgraced by Luthien, who put him to sleep enabling Beren to steal a Silmaril, and in the death of the greatest wolf of all time – Carcharoth. What started this chain of events? Thingol attempted to have Beren killed by sending him on the impossible quest of recovering a Silmaril (which as we already know was made by -- Feanor!).

I think I would be justified in guessing that the Valar would have ‘wondered' to hear of these defeats, as well as the beauty which the Noldor in ME achieved before their ultimate ruin.