Who SPECIFICALLY were the Nazgul? Related to Aragorn?

[pgt]

I recall they were 'kings' or 'nobles' of men and presumably Westernese. They either shortly predated or were of Isildurs time. I always presumed they were of the northern kingdom, Arnor. I also thought they were at least nobles and perhaps kings.

But I can find no reference to a single specific king 'going bad' let alone nine when Sauron was giving away rings despite the fact there there is fairly detailed history and lineages and so forth available.

Why is there no reference to specific kings or lords or whatever 'going bad' in all the annals of history???

Did Suaron give nine rings to would-be nobles or lesser men that had no historical significance prior to 'going bad'?

PS: If there is a link somewhere or a chapter explaining this please refer me. I've done some looking and haven't come up with much.

Thanks!

[Grond]

Only two Nazgul are identified. The leader of the Ringwraiths is the Witch-king of Angmar. The other is the Lt. of the Dol Guldor and he is known as Khamal the Easterling. A third could be Gothmog, Lt of Minas Morgul but his race was never identified. In TRotK it simply states that after the Lord of the Nazgul was defeated by Eowyn, that the Lt. of the Morgul took over for him. He could have been a Nazgul. So two for sure and three maybe. The other 7 or 8 are never identified specifically but are thought to have been mighty kings of old. There were many kingdoms to the south and east of Minis Tirith. The havens in Umbar. Black Numenorians up the coast toward Harad. Many kingdoms in both Harad and Rhun.

The Witch-king appears to be all Middle-earth as does Khamal the Easterling. But that doesn't mean that one of the other 8 couldn't be a Black Numenorean and be related to Aragorn. Don't forget that the "Mouth of Sauron" was a Black Numenorean and he, too, could have been related to Aragorn.

I have searched throughout Unfinished Tales and Histories of Middle Earth and Silmarillion and no other references are made to their specific identities. :)

[pgt]

Thank you! I needn't look further for non-existent refererences I suspect.

If the One Ring was the last ring made, I'm guessing the nine were made circa II 1500-1600. If so this predates the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor significantly making my original presumption wrong. The Nazgul are first known to appear around 2200 or 400 or 500 years after the one is forged. Still well before Gondor and Arnor.

I'm also guessing the Witch King was already long since a bad guy and under the power of 1 of the 9 rings before he went up and took hold in Angmar and started dividing and conquering Arnor.

Obviously there were other kingdoms of men in ME at the time along with some Numenorean outposts at the time the nine were made or distributed. This reaches back a bit further than I realized. Boy those Nazgul are real old!

Now if I recall, the weapons from the barrow downs were a problem or threat to the Nazgul (or is my memory faulty?). Now just why would weapons from the Barrow downs be an issue with these guys? Those weapons are much newer and more modern than the Nazgul.

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The Mouth is another enigma. I recall him being referred to as a 'black Numenorean' whatever that is. He is part of the race that never went and lived on the island perhaps? His age is a point of curiosity. The 9 were given immortality (well you know what I mean) with the rings. He doesn't get a ring. Is he real old or maybe less than 100? Does he die at 300 or has Suaron somehow figured out how to extend his life? Another enigma.

(Hey who picked up the ring after Eowyn killed the Witch King anyway? I suppose it lost it's power when the one was destroyed.)

[Greymantle]

The swords are magic. Presumbably not "magic" in the sense of "Elven," but it says that they are spelled against evil by some Numenorian power. *Shrugs* For some reason this is a threat to the Nazgul; why, I don't know!

As for the Rings... I don't believe the Nine kept their Rings with them after becoming Wraiths. I don't see why thye wouldn't, btu people have told me that they remain with Sauron. *Shrugs again* I certainly could be wrong, though.

[Gothmog]

The swords of the barrow downs were made when the Northen kingdom was at war with Angmar and therefore the swords and knifes made at that time had spells put on them for the destruction of the Witch King. It took a little longer for one of them to strike him than was hoped.

I doubt very much that the 9 Rings were not with the Wraiths. If Sauron had them himself would he not have given them out to more men to gain more Nazgul? It seems that he was prepared to give out the three Dwarf rings to futher his plans. Also Why would he want to have the 9 rings himself? He already controled them.

[Ian]

only 3 of them were black numenoreans, they were the numenoreans that were loyal to the king and settled in middle earth, they ruled over the Haradrim

[Ragnarok]

He was NOT a Nazgul. I dont have the book with me right now to get the exact passage, but more or less it says 'he LOOKED like one of the Nazgul, covered in black armour and on a black steed, but was NOT.' Now, thats not specifically quoted, but thats what it says when he comes out to discuss the terms with Gandalf. He was just a man, Easterling I think, that gained the favor of Sauron and was appointed to Lt. of Morgul. I think he was quite old in fact, and said to be more like a skeleton than a man. Sauron just gave him prolonged life.

[Grond]

Ragnarok, you need to re-read the book. I speak of Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul. He is only mentioned in the book once after the Lord of the Nazgul is slain by Eowyn and his race is not identified.

Your are thinking of the Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-dur and he was no Nazgul. He was, as I said, a Black Numenorean. I was simply making the point that many Black Numenoreans still existed on Middle-earth and could have been related to Aragorn. Not that he was a Nazgul.

As I said before, there were only two or possibly three Nazgul identified. They were the Witch-king of Angmar, Khamal the Easterling and possibly, Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul.

[Grond]

PGT, the HoME and Tolkien's letters make it clear that Sauron possessed the Nazgul's rings. That is why no ring clanged to the ground when the Witch-king was killed. The author's logic behind this was that Sauron had no mechanism to control the nine without the One. He therefore, took the nine and kept them. He couldn't give them to others for fear that he would loose his hold on the original nine and have no control whatsoever on the new nine. Get it? I'm not the clearest of communicators.

But that was how it was explained. Of course, if Sauron ever got the One back, he would have had other options. 1) returning the nine to the Nazgul and they would have become real, real bad-a**es or 2) maybe even start another nine jr. nazgul. I don't know if that was ever addressed by the author.

Hope this helps. Many of the loose end questions are answered in JRRT's letters and in the Histories of Middle-earth. You might want to add them to your collection if you haven't already. I love mine!:)

[Gothmog]

Ah Grond, I see that you are making good use of your new source of knowledge and you have scored a victory over me. I now see that I was wrong in my view about the whereabouts of the Nazguls rings. I thank you.

[Snaga]

Did the nine get ensnared before or after the Last Alliance/end of the S.A.?

Open to correction but I think it must have been before. So when he had the One did he keep hold of the Nine rings? Probably, or we'd have been onto the 18 Nazgul, or the 27 etc!

Oh, and who looked after the 9 whilst he was having a sabbatical after getting defeated? Could get complicated couldn't it?!

[pgt]

Yes, thanks all for the answers and info.

Variag I already answered your question above in my second post. They were ensnared sometime between the creation of the 9 rings (see above) and the 1st recorded appearance of the Nazgul (also above).

Considering we have little info on but a few names and no real info on the significance of those names prior to being ensnared, I doubt any more accurate dates exist than the range I already provided. We'll see.

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I am a bit curious about what degree of 'magic' the Westernese posessed in Arnor or Gondor or wherever. Until this thread, 'magic' never really much came to my mind in considering men other than their long lives which had been granted to them.

Which would you rather have? A venemous Westernese sword or a glow-in-the-dark (decoder not included) Elvish sword? - heh heh just kidding.

[Tar-Steve]

So if the Nazgul aren't wearing their rings all the time the one is lost, why don't they just die? They're still just men "stretched" and "thinned" by a great ring. Right? I don't like this inconsistency.

Until I read Grond's post, I was going to suggest that maybe the Mouth of Sauron had received one of the 3 Dwarf-rings that Sauron did recover and that might explain his being a numenorian and still alive. But that suggestion is kind of moot if the Nazgul don't wear the nine rings.

Thoughts? ...

[pgt]

There is an old non-sequiter since the 1st invisible man movies/shows whatever that is worsened by LOTR.

The recent film w/ Kevin Bacon had him invisible when he stripped his clothes. This would probabyl be the more purely techncally correct approach I suppose.

Do the clothes disappear with the body or not? Sometimes the clothes conveniently disappear too (Bilbo and Frodo etc). But sometimes the individual is invisibile beneath his clothing (Lord of Naz at gates of MT - you can see his crown 'floating' over his head. You can also see the cloaks of the dark riders.

Really I can go either way with where the 9 rings are kept. But the one problem I have with the 9 keeping their toys is that

A) They are visible or at least their clothes are visible.
B) They sometimes get 'smacked' by flooding rivers and nasty Rohirrim shield maidens and manage to leave physical remains behind such as mounts, attire etc. which leads you to presume they would lead their ring behind as well.
C) Over the millenia their # seems constant at 9

I really dunno - just some food for thought...