The reliability of the Silmaillion

[Helcaraxë]

The Silmaillion contains many contradicitons. The Ainur cannot be slain, Tolkien says in BoLT 1. But then we have Turin returning from the dead and "slaying" him. Indeed, the entire thing seems to have changed from a "true" elvish history into an chaotic mishmash of Mannish myth intermingled with some grain of the more reliable Elvish story. So how do we sort it out?

MB

[Finduilas]

Throghout Tolkien's entire set of works there many contradicions, I dare to say that there isn't moew or less a book without a contradicion. But this is the risk of creating a mythology. He has actually created a new world, one that we cannot see but do admire and wish to live there. So it is a world. But even our own universe is full of contradicions and irrational issues which we find no explanation for. For instance, the betrayal of Juda. It is well known that in order to do a crime you have to have a reason, as there is a law term. But what is Juda's motive? 30 silver-pieces as is assumed? Because that's what people have been told and that's what we believe. But is it so, there's a contradiction here if we think deeply. 30 silver-pieces are too little money (for example, they're half of the money with which Maria has anoited Jesus). However, Juda's an intelligent person, he wouldn't tempt himself for such a pitiful sum of money. What's more he's been a cashier of the Apostol's community and could steal whenever and whatever he wanted. No, the harder the Evangelists try to convince us that Juda betrayed Christ because of greediness, the more we're convinced that it is not that the reason. There's an explanation, of course, but this is not the subject of our discussion here. What I have said so far is important. There's a contradiction even concerning our own sacred religion! So contradictions are everywhere.
Therefore, it's logical to assume that every world has to consist of contradicions, otherwise not only would it be extremely dull, but we wouldn't be able to progress, to draw conclusions and thus learn.
There're even more contradicions in the Unfinished Tales. We can assume that they are made because of lack of time, or on purpose. We can interpret it in many ways. And that's what makes us readers, after all.

[Helcaraxë]

Perhaps. But I think it is a mistake to compare our world to Tolkien's. Tolkien, in creating his sub-creation, revised and rewrote much of his work, creating contradictions. I don't think anyone rewrote our world, which is why it has contradictions. The inconsistensies in our world are radically different from those in Tolkien's.

MB

[Finduilas]

Tolkien, in creating his sub-creation, revised and rewrote much of his work, creating contradictions. I don't think anyone rewrote our world, which is why it has contradictions.

Do I see a contradiction here? :D

Yes, I agree that in his works much of the contradictions are due to the imperfected structure. I mean he didn't have the time to niether finish his creation (ME), nor perfect it (concerning some contradictions and inaccuracies). Thus he brought up his 'child' and we can assume that it's in its teenage years - both quite knowledgable and yet to draw conclusions from his history as well as quite wild.

[Barliman Butterbur]

The Silmaillion contains many contradicitons.sackville-baggins The Ainur cannot be slain, Tolkien says in BoLT 1. But then we have Turin returning from the dead and "slaying" him. Indeed, the entire thing seems to have changed from a "true" elvish history into an chaotic mishmash of Mannish myth intermingled with some grain of the more reliable Elvish story. So how do we sort it out?

MB

I don't think it's possible. The published form of the Silmarillion is a well-done but still patchwork quilt put together with much loving labor by Christopher Tolkien. He admits that there was so much inconsistancy with his material that some things which were better written had to be left out, because there was nowhere to put them. He hoped, he wrote at one point, that there would be subsequent publications in which to include them.

Lotho

[Helcaraxë]

What?! You cheated! Sackville-Baggins Ainur?! :D :D :D

But there are also inconsistencies in HoME

MB

[Gothmog]

Of course there are inconsistancies in the Silmarillion and in HoME. In these books we see the incomplete vision of Tolkien as he worked on them. We do not know, and never will know, just how JRRT would have put this work together in a "Finished" form. His son had to do the best he could with the material he had at the time. Later more work was found/deciphered and a new view of the Sil. was obtained. But what this would have been like for consistancy had JRRT been able to get it ready for publishing we will never know.

[Eledhwen]

Perhaps MB should read this: http://www.weyrd.org/silmarillion.html

Seriously, hats off to Christopher Tolkien, who had to find contemporaneous texts that fitted together, with completed stories, from amongst the confetti of manuscripts that he later sorted into thirteen more books, including a round-earth, cosmologically correct version of the mythology that I'm really glad didn't make it into the Sil! (I believe it was abandoned on advice of friends who were also fans of his mythology.) No word processors then!

Do not forget that Tolkien died whilst still revising this great work. It is a travesty that he spent his time marking exam papers to make ends meet when he could have been getting the Sil ready for publication (though it was marking exam papers that got him famous in the first place: "In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit!"). JK Rowling never had a financial worry again after her first HP book.

*edit* just spotted the above post! Good stuff.

[Helcaraxë]

HA!! LOL!! That's great. :D

MB

[Helcaraxë]

But anyway, back to the original question, which parts of the Silmaillion can we trust and which can't we trust? I'd say that the most recurring and deeply rooted parts of the mythology are reliable.

MB

[Gil-Galad]

For sure the question of Gil-Galad's parentage is a contradiction.
In the Sil he is son of Fingon,but later Tolkien changes it and Gil-Galad becomes son of Orodreth.I can provide you a wonderful material by Inderjit S concerning this question if you want. ;)

[Helcaraxë]

Do I see a contradiction here? :D

Yes, I agree that in his works much of the contradictions are due to the imperfected structure. I mean he didn't have the time to niether finish his creation (ME), nor perfect it (concerning some contradictions and inaccuracies). Thus he brought up his 'child' and we can assume that it's in its teenage years - both quite knowledgable and yet to draw conclusions from his history as well as quite wild.
What I meant is, "The reason we have contradictions in our world is not because someone rewrote it," not "The fact that somone did not rewrite it created contradictions. ;)

~Helcaraxë

Therefore, it's logical to assume that every world has to consist of contradicions, otherwise not only would it be extremely dull, but we wouldn't be able to progress, to draw conclusions and thus learn.

But in learning we understand how the contradictions are related and how they are in fact, not contradictions at all, but rather two parts of a consistent whole. The same cannot be said for ME, or rather the way in which Tolkien presents us with ME. Sorry for the double post.

~Helcaraxë

[Finduilas]

But in learning we understand how the contradictions are related and how they are in fact, not contradictions at all, but rather two parts of a consistent whole. The same cannot be said for ME, or rather the way in which Tolkien presents us with ME. Sorry for the double post.

~Helcaraxë

Agree. ;)
So, this is how I see it:
We have the Nature, our World. And It's perfect. We are a creation of It (or something else, let's not turn it into a religious debate, the point is that we are not the creators but the creations). Our World is perfect because of all the "obvious' imperfect contradictions, it's a part of It's plan. We, as creations are imperfect and so is our...mental capacity. A person cannot create something perfect because he himself is not perfect! He might try or accidently make contradictions in order to make his work at least closer to perfection, but still it won't be. An imperfect person cannot create a perfect world. It's the same with Tolkien, despite his genius.

[Inderjit S]

The Silmarillion has several inconstancies that need to be ironed out, such as the parentage of Gil-Galad, several missing Finwëans and other such things.

But C.T wrote it in it's correct form since Tolkien decided that if the Silmarillion was a Númenórean tale then it must have the Númenórean errors. (so Men awoke with the Sun etc.)

[elffriend]

The Sil my have inconsistancies, but all myths whether real or fiction are full of inconsistancy. If JRR had had the time would he have really not had inconsistancy in the Sil, I think not, he was creating a myth, and all myths are inconsistance, this makes the Sil appear more real, it makes the myth appear as if it was a tale handed down over many generations, that changed slightly in its telling, which is true of myth. You only need to look at the Myths about King Arthur and Merlin, or the myths of Welsh Celts to see inconsistancy.

[Melian Le Fay]

The Sil my have inconsistancies, but all myths whether real or fiction are full of inconsistancy. If JRR had had the time would he have really not had inconsistancy in the Sil, I think not, he was creating a myth, and all myths are inconsistance, this makes the Sil appear more real, it makes the myth appear as if it was a tale handed down over many generations, that changed slightly in its telling, which is true of myth. You only need to look at the Myths about King Arthur and Merlin, or the myths of Welsh Celts to see inconsistancy.
I agree! It is the imperfection which makes his work so lovable! It really feels like tales passed on and on, losing some of their originality, and gaining new ideas and perceptions...
It;s quite clear that all these imperfections come from lack of time, and from Tolkien's desire to constantly improve his work. By this, IMO he gave it more depth... because, just like Finduilas wrhote, it feels more like our own world...
I always felt like an archaeologist while reading his work. You can feel layers and layers of his world, and it fascinated me! A real world, with real history, and its histories history... Past, beyond past, until the very dawn of his world... All these contradictions make a mosaic so impressive, which only shows us how ingenious he was... and from all this contradictions you can choose what to believe in, what to like more or less...

And as for the original question - how can Turin kill Morgoth? well, why not? really? Maybe he wouldn't utterly destroy his fea, maybe "killing" means just diminishing it (just like with Sauron)... If I'm wrong, please, correct me!
And Melko was exceptional in everything, why not in this?
I'm just guessing here, but perhaps we can find some logicity and cocsistency in this mosaic, if we consider things more "freely"...