Finn and Hengest

[Serendur]

Has anyone read Tolkien´s Finn and Hengest? I am very interested about it, haven´t read it though. Give me your opinion/thoughts. :confused:

[Serendur]

I read some reviews at Amazon.com that gave me so idea what the book is about. I have read the Fight at Finnesburg and Beowulf and I enjoyed them very much so I think I should read this book, but I´m not very interested in Old English, because I´m a Finn.

[Ireth Telrúnya]

Has anyone read Tolkien´s Finn and Hengest? I am very interested about it, haven´t read it though. Give me your opinion/thoughts. :confused:

I haven't but perhaps I will, since it's very interesting that there is Finn in the name of the book. And hengest also sound a bit like my language. I think it's incredible that Tolkien was so interested in our language and actually learned it so well that he based a language on it.
In my opinion, Finnish is such a tricky language that had I not learned it in my childhood like everyone else here, I would never try to learn it as a foreigner.

I've also wondered about Mark Twain's "Huckleberry FINN". Did Twain get an idea for his novels from seeing one young rascal, an immigrant from Finland???

Maybe my thoughts go too far...

[jallan]

The Finn in the story of the battle of Finnesburgh is a Frisian. I believe the etymology of the name is unknown.

Finn is also a Gaelic name meaning ‘white, fair’ and not an horribly uncommon surname and given name in Ireland. See Finn genealogy and surname search (http://ancestorguide.com/F/Finn). Oral tales of the famous hero Finn mac Cumhail were still prevelent in Ireland and Scotland in the early twentieth century. This name would have nothing to do with Finns or Finnland. I suspect Huckleberry Finn is supposed to have Irish ancestry.

Compare Mickey Finn (http://www.heartlandspirits.com/Distiller.aspx?AutoId=2).

Hengest means ‘stallion’ in Old English and according to later English and Welsh legendary tradition was the name of the first Germanic leader to settle in what later became England. The name is also given to a prominent leader in the Finnesburgh story, usually now identified by scholars with the legendary English founding father.

Tolkien’s Finn and Hengest is a very technical, scholarly discussion of some features of the story of the battle of Finnesburgh, a tale known only from the old English poem Beowulf where part of it is retold beginning at Beowulf Section XVII (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/beo/beo17.htm) and from the Finnesburgh Fragment (http://www.angelcynn.org.uk/poetry_finnesburgh.html).

As Walter indicates, the book is intended for people who have some previous interest in its subject matter. But it is an excellent piece of work and I find Tolkien’s and Miles’ arguments quite convincing. This is the kind of writing Tolkien was supposed to be doing for his salary instead of writing about Hobbits and Rings and inventing and reinventing Elvish.

[Ireth Telrúnya]

Okay, thank jallan.
Then "Finn" is a purely Irish name. We Finns never actually call ourselves Finns in our language or in any word even remotely similar. We call ourselves:
"suomalaiset" (plural) "suomalainen" (singular). And "Suomi" is both our language and country. I don't know where this Finland came...but it's interesting to know that in Gaelic it means "white and fair", just like many people here are. Maybe the name was adopted from Gaelic into English?
In German it is Finnland with two n:s.
And Finlandia in Italian and Spanish if I remember correctly.

Hey, it's good Tolkien wrote about the Middle-Earth and wasn't so concerned of his salary!

[jallan]

The name Finn for the inhabitants of what is called by most of the world Finnland is of dubious origin, apparently a name of common Scandinavian Germanic use when records first appear.

I remember seeing somewhere a suggestion that the ethnic name Finn may have originally meant ‘hunter’ with the caveat that there are other suggested explanations and all was very dubious. I know that a connection to the Gaelic word finn (older find congate to Gaulish vind) is not usually considered credible. After all, most blond hair is common in Scandinavia also among non-Finns and why would the Germanic folk in Scandinavia use a Celtic word?

[Eledhwen]

This book is an academic study of two short Old English pieces of writing. The ancient words are studied and their meanings discussed. A large part of the book is an extensive glossary of names, and only near the end are there translations of the Fragment and the Episode, which go as follows:

THE FRAGMENT: Then in the hall was the sound of deadly conflict: the hollow shield, protector of the body, was to shiver in the hands of the brave; the timbers of the hall resounded, till in thfight lay Garulf son of Guthulf dead, the first of all the inhabitants to die, and round him a host of good men, the bodies of hte brave. The dusky dark-brown raven circled round. The gleam o f swords shone as if all Finnesburg was aflame. Never did I hear that sixty valiant fighters bore themselves more honourably in a clash of foes, nor ever did a man's own brave companions make better payment for the white mead than this young warriors made to Hnæf. For five days so well that none of the retainers fell: nay, they held the doors.

When the wounded champion turned away, saying that his coat of mail was damaged, his armour useless and his helmet also pierced, the ruler of the people quickly asked him how those other warriors endured their wounds, or which of the two young men...(ends) THE EPISODE: There was song and music together before Healfdene's war-captain; harp was played, ever and anon, a tale was duly told. Then Hrothgar's bard, in performance of his office, recounted a thing for the entertainment of those in hall upon the benches, [told how life's ending came to] the sons of Finn.

When the sudden peril came upon them, the doughty Healfdene, Hnæf of the Scylding house, was fated to fall in the Freswæl. Indeed no cause had Hildeburh to praise the Jutish loyalty: without fault of hers she was in that clash of shields bereft of those she loved, child and brother; they fell by doom, wounded with spears; an unhappy woman was she. Not without cause did Hoc's daughter lament her destined lot when morning came, and she then beneath the light of heaven could see the murderous evil among kinsfolk. Where he aforetime had possessed the greatest of earthly bliss, there war swept away all the knights of Finn, save few alone; so that he in that place of encounter could by no means fight out the battle with Hengest, nor with war wrest the survivors of disaster from the king's thane. Nay, they offered him terms, that he should make free for them another building entire, hall and throne, so that they might have possession of half thereof, sharing it with the sons of the Jutes; and that at the giving of gifts Finn, son of Folcwalda, should every day honour the Danes, and should gladden Hengest's troop even as greatly with jewelled treasures and plated gold as he was wont to enhearten the Frisian race with in the drinking-hall.

[jallan]

I’ve just reread this book.

Tolkien works hard extracting evidence from some of the most unlikely places to reconstruct the probable back story for these passages.

What do these passages actually mean? What was the author’s intent. Who are the people named in the texts? How are they related to one another? Why is one intepretation of an Old English word better than another in the particular context? Is what we are reading the text as originally written or has it been corrupted by a later transcriber?

The amount of erudition is frightening. Only here did I learn that King Lother of Denmark is in one obscure text the slayer of Baldr.

It takes pages and pages of commentary to explain the literal and poetic meaning of these passages and to relate what they say to other traditions of the migration period and later.

Tolkien doesn’t fully succeed of course. Tradition is far too fragmentary and too much is missing from the fragments of the tale to allow certainty.

But Tolkien’s reconstruction of the back story is a fully reasonable one, perhaps the most reasonable one that yet appears. I think it generally true though probably not true on every point. Tolkien indicates he is well aware of the problems in his use of some of the supposed evidence. He is only presenting a reasonable hypothesis and attempting to reference every piece of surviving evidence that might have a bearing on the fragments.

But failing discovery of more manuscripts that relate to these fragments we will never know how close Tolkien’s back story is to the the story as know to those who first made these texts.

Tolkien’s work, as is the work of other scholars bent on interpreting ancient texts or tales and traditions in languages not well known is to discover as far as possible the precise and exact meaning of the text and the author who wrote the text, using careful comparison of other similar texts, historical tradition, grammatical study and etymology.

In this kind of work there is no use for the nonsensical philosophy that any meaning that can be read into a text by any reader is as valid as any other.

Tolkien sees Hnaef as a Danish lord with a train of various followers of different origins including Hengest who has a band of Jutes in his own service. Hnaef and his followers have come to spend the winter at Finnesburg, the hall of his brother-in-law Finn, King of Frisia. But Finn has in his service other Jutes, Jutes who have a feud with Hengest and his followers.

Violence springs up. Hnaef and Hengest somehow control of Finn’s own hall and hold off the attackers. In the battle the lord Hnaef is slain but also Finn’s son along with most of Finn’s warband.

Peace of a kind is made. It is winter, so Hengest with his suviving Jutes and the surviving Danes cannot easily leave. They are therefore allowed to stay as guests of Finn, though in fact by strick heroic standards they probably ought to have fought to the death. The agreement states that Finn will act as liege to this band of Danes and Jutes during the winter and treat them justly and with equality as though they were his own people.

But the desire for vengeance is not erased. One of the Danes bestows on Hengest an ancient and valuable sword, perhaps the sword of Hnaef, and persuades Hengest and his Jutes to join him in a plot to take vengeance for Hnaef’s death.

In spring the Danes sail off. But Hengest and his Jutes remain for a time. Then the Danes return suddenly and secretly with reinforcements. The Danes are treacherously admitted into Finnesburg by Hengest. The Danes and Hengest with his Jutes burn the hall, slay Finn. The Danes return to their home with Finn’s widow, Hnaef’s surviving sister.