Exchange Debate Between GoT and GoE

[Gil-Galad]

Finally we are ready with the teams.It has been a long time since we decided to do such a debate and finally everything is almost ready.I hope that this debate will be only the first one of many "exchange debates".
The debators from GoT and GoE are:
GoE
-Scatha
-Beth
-Celebthol
-Omni
GoT
-Melian L
-Starflower
-Celebdraug
-Finduilas

From these 8 debators team A and team B will be formed:
Team A
-Melian L
-Starflower
-Celebthol
-Omni

Team B
-Scatha
-Beth
-Finduilas
-Celebdraug
The topic will be posted soon(let me first see who will participate-Ulairi or Manveru).
Judges:
Gothmog
Nom
Walter

Good Luck!!!!

[Scatha]

Since when is Snaga debating in this? :p

Last time I checked, my name was Scatha. *snickers*

[Gil-Galad]

It was a typing mistake.It happens. :o

[omnipotent_elf]

well well, i've been traded...hmm......

lets get this thing started :D

[Scatha]

Aye, let's get this party started. I have asked all our debators to report in this thread.

[Lhunithiliel]

... a Nazgul takes a seat in the first row and prepares to watch the show... :p

[omnipotent_elf]

.....Seeing the black coat in the front row made omni increasingly nervous, with sweat dripping of his face even before everyone else has arrived..... :p

[Starflower]

Reporting ready for debate,Sir! :p

[Bethelarien]

Bring it on.

Lhun, sweetie, that avatar is disgusting! ;) Perfect for a wraith. :D

Come on, Findi and Draug! Let's go! :D

[celebdraug]

im here! :)! Findi?

[Gil-Galad]

Master Gothmog will post the topic some time this day!!!

The one team which post its opening post first will actually choose a side.The slower team will have to take the other side
GOOD LUCK

[celebdraug]

Okay! :)

where is Findi tho....?

[Finduilas]

Oh, here...sowwy.... :o

Ready.:)

[Gothmog]

Master Grond will post the topic some time this day!!!


Seems that Gil-Galad made a mistake with the name. The topic is to be set by myself.*bows*

So here it is.

The One Ring.

There have been many threads complaining that Gandalf should have recognised the One Ring during the time that Bilbo and Frodo had it in the Shire. Well, it could also be said that he could have recognised it when first he saw it, or at least on the way back to the shire when he had finished his pressing business in Dol Guldur. (this would in some ways be more likely as he had just dealt with Sauron and the One would no doubt be on his mind).

So your mission, should you wish to accept it, is to debate this question.

Had Gandalf recognised the One Ring before Bilbo had returned to the Shire, would the Ring have been destroyed before the Rise of Sauron?

Good luck and have fun. :)

[Gil-Galad]

Good luck!!!!

You have one week after the first post.

[Bethelarien]

The question of the debate is:

Had Gandalf recognised the One Ring before Bilbo had returned to the Shire, would the Ring have been destroyed before the Rise of Sauron?

This is a hypothetical question, having little to no substantiary evidence. My team will endeavor to prove that, had Gandalf recognised the One Ring at the time suggested, it would indeed have been destroyed before the Rise of Sauron.

Let us examine the question a little more closely. In order to satisfactorily answer the question, we must discuss what is meant by the Rise of Sauron. During the Quest of Erebor, Sauron was known simply as the Necromancer, and resided in Dol Guldur in the southern part of Mirkwood. Certainly he was feared there--but he was not yet a major force to be reckoned with throughout the rest of Middle-earth.

As we are told in the Tale of Years, it was not until AFTER Bilbo returned to the Shire with the One Ring in 2942 that Sauron returned to Mordor. And, also told in the Tale of Years, it is not until 2951 that Sauron declares himself openly and begins the rebuilding of Barad-dur. We see that there is a substantial lapse of time--nine years, to be exact--between Bilbo's return to the Shire and the beginning of Sauron's rise to power in the Third Age.

Thus we see that, had Gandalf recognized the One Ring for what it truly was, there would have been ample time to arrange for its destruction BEFORE Sauron regained power. Sauron was still in the midst of trying to rebuild, to regain what he had lost. Therefore, had Gandalf recognized the Ring, it would have been much easier and much more possible to destroy it, rather than having to face the thousands of Orcs as well as the Nazgul, as Frodo and Sam did.

[Gil-Galad]

The debate was started on
January 26th, 06:26 A.M.CET
You have exactly on week which means that no more posts will be allowed after February 2nd,06:26 A.M CET

Good Luck!!

[omnipotent_elf]

IMPORTANT:

Who is on my team
Celebthol has left TTF
and which one of Ulairi or Manveru is participating. It makes it incredibly hard to have an argument when i don't know who's helping me, and what ideas everyone else have!!!!!!

[Gil-Galad]

Since Celebthol is not here I guess Manveru and Ulairi can debate both!!!You should be 4!!
so your team is :
you
Manveru
Ulairi
Starflower

you can pm them about your tactics etc.

[Scatha]

Err, I have not been advised that Thol left TTF, but give me a little time to provide a replacement for him from within the GoE?

[Gil-Galad]

I asked Manveru to replace him so,I believe that the debate can contiue.The topic is really very good one. :)

[Manveru]

Err, I have not been advised that Thol left TTF, but give me a little time to provide a replacement for him from within the GoE?
I asked Manveru to replace him so,I believe that the debate can contiue.The topic is really very good one.
Hmm... I'm not from the GoE (though I fancy Elves a little... no, not in this way; c'mon...;)) so I can wait, Scatha, my pointy-eared friend... but if you can't find her/him, I guess it won't be a problem for me to debate... guess so, don't know yet (problems usually "occur" during...;)).

[Gil-Galad]

Manv,I spoke with Scatha and he said there was no problem for you to debate.:)
So let us see the angel in action.

[Manveru]

Uff... another "thingy" on my humpback... geesh...
(hope your conscience will endure that, your Majesty;))

:D

-------
We'll continue with it, just let me get in touch with the rest of the team...

[Gil-Galad]

Having in mind this small problem I will give three more days to the debators.
The end of the debate is February 5th,06:26 A.M CET
I hope that it will be enough for you to make one interesting and pleasant debate.

[omnipotent_elf]

Excellent - so we have found the question :D (i was lost for a few days, thisa would have been up sooner, but for RL)

Had Gandalf recognised the One Ring before Bilbo had returned to the Shire, would the Ring have been destroyed before the Rise of Sauron

On behalf of my time, I will open. There happens to be very little evidence from the novels, for this is a hypothetical question - but looking at some of the letters from tolkien, we, the opposing team (come on guys, we need a NAME *looks at team*) are proving this this statement could indeed be false.

Look at the possibilities. Sauron was indeed at Gul Duldur, But as this is hypothetical, why cant we simply assume that he stayed in Mordor. That Gandalf, instead of actually having to face against him, had instead stayed with the mission and helped the dwarves (and indeed bilbo). He could have found out, just like the rest of the dwarves, at the same time as them! So Sauron, in this time, could quite easily have built a much larger strength in Mordor, protecting mount Doom!!

Also, the reason why Frodo succeeded was, in some respects, due to the fellowship. Gandalf could quite easily have spent TIME finding a suitible group, but even without the "strength", Sauron still had the ringwraiths, at his disposal, in mordor which would have been more then adequate protection from the "destruction" of the ring.
Ok, this is just an openor, so my team, back me up!

[Scatha]

The ringwraiths were brought back into life/power, long after Bilbo had found the one ring, thus they could not have played a real part in the prevention of the destruction, had Gandalf recognised the ring for what it was. Sauron himself was not even near mount doom, nor was there any large force to be reckoned with in mordor at that time.

If Gandalf would have recognised the ring sooner, when he laid eyes on it, then the destruction of it would have been so much simpler. With no real opposing force between the western kingdom and mount doom, the ring would have landed easily within the firey abyss, with less people lost in the process.

More elves were around at that time as well, to aid in bringing this ring to mordor, even more dwarves willing to do so.

So I fail to see where you think this is not the case. :p

[Manveru]

Geesh, maybe I'll be "the One" (no, not the ring;)) to spoil this great and breathtaking (;)) debate, but, from my "shallow" part, I think that this topic isn't good to debate without too much "free interpretation" so to say... looks very one-sided, but maybe it's only me... don't wanna complain, though... no, Precious, nooooooo... :p

*flies away to dig some more on the matter... doubtfully;)*

[omnipotent_elf]

I second Manv - this debate is too one sided.

[Finduilas]

So, are we proceeding? :confused:
Come on, guys, I have just gone through "The Letters" (after a calm sleepless night) and am in full shape of debating..:D

[Eriol]

I think that in this stage of the debate (each team has posted at least once) the topic may only be discarded by common agreement between the two teams. It is an interpretation of the rules -- since this debate was staged differently than ordinary debates, with the "who posts first picks a side" rule. But I think it is a reasonable interpretation, and if someone asked me :D, that would be my opinion.

In other words, if you think the topic is one-sided, get the other team to agree with you. If they don't, well, do your best :).

I know no one asked me, but I am watching this with interest and I am a big mouth.

[Manveru]

I know no one asked me, but I am watching this with interest and I am a big mouth.
No kidding;) (just kidding)

As for the rest... we do our best, but, well, it needs some "changes" in the history (I'm not going to "dare" that thing). Though, maybe not... I'm not familiar with "The Letters"... :o

[Finduilas]

What's happening to the debate?
I think that we all should agree for a change of topic and then go on debating!:D
Come on!:p

[Gil-Galad]

Well,I like the topic and actually there are som very interesting things which can be added,but it seems nobody sees them.

The debate should be over today,but if you want I will continue it with one more week?Do you want it?Or you do not like the topic?

[Bethelarien]

Scatha and I have spoken about this, and if the other team wishes to change the topic, we will agree to it. Finuilas seems to find that acceptable as well. So, if the other team wishes it, we will accept a topic change.

[Gil-Galad]

Ok,now it depends on the other team.
Let's see what they will say.

[Scatha]

Excuse me, but now we have waited for two weeks, in vain, while it was the other team in the first place that started the issue on the topic. Can we either get on with this or blow it off?

[Gil-Galad]

Ok,so you want a new topic?

[Finduilas]

I vote "yes".

The others?

[Scatha]

As I stated earlier, almost everyone has agreed on a new topic. So what are we waiting for?

[Manveru]

Hmm... for a topic?;)

[celebdraug]

you and your smart comments! :p

I too would like t see another thread too.

[Gil-Galad]

I will post the new topic these days.

[Manveru]

Goodie, be sure to do that, Kingy... my days are "counted"... sorry, soon won't have too much time to spare:(
(I mean I'll be here, but not able to participate in such things like debates or the longlasting researches... maybe some minor things, from time to time... to not let you forget 'bout me;)).

*waiting, hoping his team's around, too*

[Gil-Galad]

ufffff.......Thus we need someone to replace him,right?

I would ask one of the Two new Melians to do it.I suppose that it will be pretty interesting for them to debate and what is more,they will have the chance to debate with experienced debators like Finduilas,Bethelarien,Scatha ;).

[Minuel Lasgalas]

ufffff.......Thus we need someone to replace him,right?

I would ask one of the Two new Melians to do it.I suppose that it will be pretty interesting for them to debate and what is more,they will have the chance to debate with experienced debators like Finduilas,Bethelarien,Scatha ;).

Huh? [laughing]... My resources are limited to the Sil and LoTR right now, but I admit I am interested...

[Manveru]

So, MelianL, it seems you're better than me... cause I scarcely remember anything of these two... and as they're my only 'bits of knowledge'... and since I'm quite good in disappearing...;)

[Gil-Galad]

I put your name in the list of the Debators Melian L.

I will post a topic ASAP,hopefully it will be concentrated on LOTR.

[Minuel Lasgalas]

I put your name in the list of the Debators Melian L.

I will post a topic ASAP,hopefully it will be concentrated on LOTR.

Or the Sil. Anything beyond that - I will have to go to a bookstore which has proven in the past to be a very dangerous place for me..............

[Scatha]

Makes you want to go on a shopping spree? ;)

[Minuel Lasgalas]

Makes you want to go on a shopping spree? ;)

Oh heck yes, but don't start that thread. :D