LOTR chapter discussion: Three is Company

[Starflower]

here we are, long overdue discussion on Ch 3 on Fellowship of the Ring.

Ok, an overview of what happens in the chapter:
Frodo finally decides to leave Bag End and makes up the story of moving to Crickhollow with Sam as his gardener. Frodo, Sam and Pippin set out from Hobbiton to Buckland. On the way they meet the first Black Rider of the story, but they also meet up with Gildor and the elves on their way to the Havens.


Here we see three young hobbits, seemingly with no care in the world (at least Pippin doesn't) having a 'picnic'. Things go smoothly until the appearance of the Black Rider. This is also wherewe find out that one of the Black Riders had been asking for Frodo at Hobbiton, and we make the connection that these are the Riders Gandalf was talking about. This is also the first time we see how the Ring has a life of its own, so to speak, as Frodo has an irresistible urge to put the Ring on when the Rider appears. Then things get a bit more lighthearted when Gildor and his company appear, and we get a glimpse of more serious things than a hobbits' outing.

Any other ideas on the subject ?

[Maerbenn]

they also meet up with Gildor and the elves on their way to the Havens.Please see Maglor's quote in the most recent post of this thread: Did you know that ......... (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=12233)

[Ithrynluin]

The thing I love about this chapter is that it's such a perfect combination of light-heartedness and more serious matters. On the one hand, we have the children-like hobbits walking at a slow pace, and having fun, and on the other hand they're confronted by grave peril, something that goes way back into history. I can just picture the beauty of the Green Hill Country and imagine all the different smells and colours of summer shifting into autumn.

I'm also very fond of Gildor, whose personality strikes such a neat balance he can be wise, but he can also be merry and joyful at the same time.

These are all reasons why this is probably my favourite chapter in Book I (of 6, not 3).

An interesting question we can discuss: Why didn't Gildor accompany Frodo further along the way, if he suspected the seriousness of Frodo's situation? Were Gildor & co. just somewhat unconcerned and tired of the current affairs in Middle-Earth, and eager to be gone over the sea? Do you think they had any obligation towards Frodo, or was their good will to accompany Frodo even as long as they did, more than enough to begin with?

[Nóm]

Well, I guess it all depends on what Gildor was thinking might be going on with Frodo.

I think it is reasonable to say that the hobbits could hide from nazgul more easily if not in the company of high elves, who the nazgul can likely see as white light in the way Frodo saw Glorfindel at Bruinen.

On the other hand, if attcked: little hobbits would have been doomed if they were alone, but likely would survive in the company of these mighty people. I think it reasonable to assume Gildor and his company were all elves who could face the nazgul as was Glorfindel. Granted Glorfindel was more powerful than your average exile due to his history (his return to Valinor even... and power comparable to that of a Maia), but we are told that there were others in Rivendell who could stand against the nazgul. Whoever these are, I imagine no reason that they would have more power than these elves in Gildor's group and I suppose some of Gildor's clan were among those sent out from Rivendell.

We know Gildor knew Gandalf was planning to join the hobbits but had not made it. Because Gildor was worried about Gandalf, we can assume he feared something had happened to dely Gandalf rather than that Gandalf decided he wanted the hobbits to go alone. Therefore Gildor would have known that Gandalf would have been with the hobbits if he could, and that it is better they not be alone, or at the least it is not harmful for another to be with them. So why then didn't Gildor's bunch journey with Frodo to Rivendell? Well for one... we don't know how many elves there were in the company. Maybe there was.... we'll say 20 of them. Could 20 have stood against all 9 if it came down to it, and made it all the way to Rivendell? I think maybe so, but for all Gildor knew there was more than nazgul around. For all he knew there could have been a major invasion on it's way to the Shire? If this is the case he may have thought the hobbits had a better chance in trying to go unnoticed. Surely a group of high elves would not be able to do this with nazgul and who knows what other creatures around.

Now why not send just one or two elves along, to guide the hobbits in strange lands, and to protect them if it came to an attack? While using the other elves to send word to Rivendell and to watch from a distance?

I'm inclined to think Gildor guessed that what Frodo carried was the One Ring. I think he would have known enough to figure it out without taking too much of a leap. On the other hand, look how long it took Gandalf to find out?

Gildor knew Frodo had something that Sauron wanted bad enough that he sent his greatest servants. He knew it was something small. Knew it was something Gandalf had not taken from Frodo. Now why in tarnation would Gandalf leave something small, something Sauron wanted very much, with a little hobbit in the Shire? And whatever was afoot, Gandalf had gone missing... pretty serious stuff. Gildor, assuming he knew about the One Ring (and I don't see why he should not) would know what power it worked on those around it, would know it is something Gandalf wouldn't handle. If the One Ring did enter Gildor's mind, I wont exclude the chance he didn't trust the elves being near it for long.

Personally I think the elves did more for Frodo that is specificly stated. I can easily imagine the elves watching the hobbits from a distance, and maybe going so far as to play games with the nazgul... drawing their attention away from what the hobbits where really doing.... going off on their own.

Why did the elves leave so early in the morning? (If you follow the link provided by Maerbenn... to Maedhros's post... it tells us the elves were returning from the Tower Hills) and Gildor himself says they tarry... I think it likely enough Gildor's company was in no hurry to be anywhere unless it was to get a head start on helping the hobbits. Gildor may have been counting on the nazgul assuming the hobbits where staying with the elves.

We do know Gildor sent word to Rivendell, and that it got there pretty fast.

The post linked to above also tells that the elves had been looking into the west with a palantir. Now how unlikely would it be that from this they got a message of great importance... something to do with the hobbits or Ring? I think: not impossible. I know there is no proof. But I believe in my heart that Gildor's company were more than they appear at casual glance.


PS: Why would Gildor give them alcohol, so they become careless for a time? :D Surely he knew the hobbits would not take their time drinking it.

[Ithrynluin]

Could 20 have stood against all 9 if it came down to it, and made it all the way to Rivendell?
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien; #210
Leaving the inn at night and running off into the dark is an impossible solution of the difficulties of presentation here (which I can see). It is the last thing that Aragorn would have done. It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. #05A796][/i]Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken. See III 114.


If all 20 Elves were High-Elves, the Nazgul would be pretty much powerless against them (I would think High Elves are an example of these 'fearless', so Gildor and his bunch accompanying Frodo would have rendered his journey as safe as any). Of course, they would still fight the Elves by means of actual weapons, but their greatest asset would be gone against such foes.

I think maybe so, but for all Gildor knew there was more than nazgul around. For all he knew there could have been a major invasion on it's way to the Shire? If this is the case he may have thought the hobbits had a better chance in trying to go unnoticed. Surely a group of high elves would not be able to do this with nazgul and who knows what other creatures around.

That is a good point - if there was a greater force stalking the hobbits they would probably be better off by themselves, laying low. But consider this - could a greater force even arrive at the Shire? The Black Riders passed through Rohan and the Gap, and their advantage was in great speed and also secrecy to an extent. If a greater force were sent from Mordor to hunt for the ring, would this go unnoticed in Gondor, Rohan and Isengard? Unlikely, I guess. Would they have tried to prevent it? I think so. If Gildor had considered what you say, would this also pass through his mind? ;)

If the One Ring did enter Gildor's mind, I wont exclude the chance he didn't trust the elves being near it for long.

Good observation.

We do know Gildor sent word to Rivendell, and that it got there pretty fast.

I do wonder how this 'messenger' got to Rivendell this fast, there's no mention of Gildor's company having horses. But if he had the means to send word to Rivendell swiftly, and he feared that a greater force than only the Nazgul might be looking for Frodo, couldn't he have sent for reinforcements and accompany Frodo?

The post linked to above also tells that the elves had been looking into the west with a palantir. Now how unlikely would it be that from this they got a message of great importance... something to do with the hobbits or Ring? I think: not impossible. I know there is no proof. But I believe in my heart that Gildor's company were more than they appear at casual glance.

I don't think they would get such a message from the palantir, or indeed any message having to do with Middle-Earth at all, since that palantir looked ONLY to Eressea.

Why would Gildor give them alcohol
Did he? This is what is said:


Pippin afterwards recalled little of either food or drink, for his mind was filled with the light upon the elf-faces, and the sound of voices so various and so beautiful that he felt in a waking dream. But he remembered that there was bread, surpassing the savour of a fair white loaf to one who is starving; and fruits sweet as wildberries and richer than the tended fruits of gardens; he drained a cup that was filled with a fragrant draught, cool as a clear fountain, golden as a summer afternoon.



When they came to make their meal, they found that the Elves had filled their bottles with a clear drink, pale golden in colour: it had the scent of a honey made of many flowers, and was wonderfully refreshing. Very soon they were laughing, and snapping their fingers at rain, and at Black Riders.
Perhaps this was something similar to mead? I'm not sure I'd call mead 'refreshing' though. But then again, the hobbits did start laughing very soon after consuming the drink. :p

‘Tell me, Gildor, have you ever seen Bilbo since he left us?’
Gildor smiled. ‘Yes,’ he answered. ‘Twice. He said farewell to us on this very spot. But I saw him once again, far from here.’ He would say no more about Bilbo, and Frodo fell silent.
Would the 'far from here' be Rivendell? Why not just say 'Rivendell' then? And why was Gildor reluctant to say anymore about Bilbo?

[Melian_the_Maya]

To my mind, Tolkien wanted this chapter to be a contrast, between the light of the High Elves and the darkness of the Nazgul. The meeting of the hobbits with the Elves provides not only entertainment and a first contact with the world outside the Shire (for the readers who have never read anything of Tolkien's before as well as Sam, Merry and Pippin), but also it introduces the remainders of a dying race and gives more information about the Nine (actually it gives plenty of tantalizing hints, which achieve a better effect than downright mentioning the threat they represent).

I disagree with the idea that Gildor kept his Elves away from the ring because of distrust concerning their ability to withstand the temptation of the ring. According to me, Gildor left so early so as to try and keep the wraiths away and warn Elrond and the company at Rivendell of their meeting with the hobbits. Also, he did not want to reveal more to Frodo than he already had and he did not want Frodo to feel forced to tell more of the Ring. I also think that the Nazgul would have been able, if not to defeat the High Elves, at least to take the hobbits from their midst. Remember that the Nazgul's powers were to create anguish and bring madness to the weaker minds, therefore it would have been easy to draw away four frightened little hobbits from a company of Elves, even if they were strong enough (and I still don't say I agree with that) to keep the Nazgul away.

Gildor knew Gandalf's concerns, or at least some of them, because as it was mentioned before, he knew Gandalf quite well. He would have known that Bilbo had had a few adventures in the Misty Mountains and he might have also known about the Ring (if he saw Bilbo, because Bilbo is mentioned to have had contacts with the High-Elves and he did not age for a very long time). He will have made the connection, I think and he will have known that Gandalf could be delayed by very few things. I think he went away also to warn of Mithrandir's absence and make sure the right people in Rivendell tried to find him, because to the Elves Mithrandir showed a more important and impressive part of his personality. It was said that the Elven rings were hidden, but maybe the Elves themselves, or at least the more important Elves did know where these rings were and Mithrandir was wearing one of these rings. It was very important to get it back, wasn't it?

[Eledhwen]

Chapter three is very leisurely indeed at the start, with months of preparation and the long wait for Gandalf (the first hint that things may not be as they should). I find it interesting that Tolkien himself didn't know why Gandalf didn't turn up (it's in a letter somewhere). Like his readers, he too had to wait for Gandalf's own explanation later.

This is also the chapter where Frodo sings 'The Road goes ever on and on' with 'weary feet' substituted for Bilbo's 'eager feet'. An indication of the difference in their burdens, perhaps.

Gildor doesn't say where he met Bilbo, only that it was far away. Bilbo's own account of his travels goes: When he left Hobbiton he wandered off aimlessly along the Road or in the country on either side; but somehow he had steered all the time towards Rivendell. 'I got here without much adventure,' he said, 'and after a rest I went on with the dwarves to Dale: my last journey. I shan't travel again.'That's quite a large area in which Gildor might have seen Bilbo; not necessarily at Rivendell. Also, Gildor admitted to not knowing the reason why the enemy was pursuing Frodo. He was either being clinically truthful (in that he could only guess about the ring), or he didn't know. However, he did understand that Frodo was leaving, 'and yet you doubt that you will find what you seek, or accomplish what you intend, or that you will ever return. Is not that so?' That's a lot to work out, without also figuring out why he was leaving.

Maybe some of Gildor's Elves shadowed the hobbits, but only as far as Farmer Maggott's, knowing him to be a friend of Tom Bombadil's.

[avarmacilion]

things are so different in the movie... *sigh*... :( ...

[Eledhwen]

Anyone who is relying on the film is going to have trouble understanding this thread until chapter 9.

[Melian_the_Maya]

Well, perhaps with some exceptions, such as the existence of the characters and their names - for the hobbits, that is... ;)

[Eledhwen]

Well, perhaps with some exceptions, such as the existence of the characters and their names - for the hobbits, that is... ;)
That is not much from six chapters!

[FrankSinatra]

This chapter is wonderfully 'homely' yet also sinister in its undertones.

A great set-up and even though things are lovely and green and sunny a shadow is already falling.

Excellent stuff and maybe my favourite chapter.

[Inderjit S]

This has to be one of my favourite chapters.

We get the principal villains in the first book, the Nazgûl, we get to meet some high-Elves, in Gildor and co. and we get to move around the Shire's countryside.

We also get to find out more about the wide variety of Hobbits on show. The youthful Pippin, the slow but steady Sam and the main protagonist Frodo. This chapter really carries to tale forward and has a mix of everything, from comedic scenes to more serious ones.

Truly a great chapter.