Discussion - The immortality of the feär

[Helcaraxë]

The question will inevitable arise: are feär immortal? Here are my theories on the subject.

If you consider only Arda, and not Eru, than yes, I believe they are. But consider Eru for a second. Certainly he is an omniscient, and yes, úlairi, deterministic, being ;). And certainly he contains all of his creations within his mind as well as outside. He certainly knows everything about all of his creations; if the feä of an Elf for some reason died (it has been argued that the Elve's feär will eventually perish after Dagor Dagorath), Eru would remember the Elf, he would know what part in history the Elf would have played if he had lived, he knows what the Elf's future might have been if it had lived. Additionally, that future actually plays out in Eru's mind; history is also present in His thoughts. The Elf's feä exists in the mind of Eru. And not only that, but it also plays its role in history within Eru's mind. It can also be said that Eä is merely a projection of Eru's mind, and that the real feär exist and have always existed with Eru. And Eru can't destroy the feär that exist within his mind without destroying part of himself, and I don't think that's possible.


As a final note, it is also possible to think of feär as the manifestation of that particular part of Eru's mind that the being in question occupies. Feär are spirits, and Eru is the spirit. Therefore the feär can be thought of as a manifestation of Eru.

Comments?

~Helcaraxë

[Lhunithiliel]

I think, it very much depends on what interpretation we give to Eru himself!
What is he - just a spirit.... a materialized spirit.... some form of energy...a sentient super-being of flesh .... ???? WHAT?? :confused:

IMO, it depend so much because if he is a spirit or some form of energy, then the fear of all the creatures he created might be understood as a part of this energy. In this case, however, I (though absolutely illiterate in matters of physics! :o ) think that those ... "bits" of energy, once separated from the main source, can very well exist separatey and independently from it and what is more - they can develop and grow and at one point become as potent as the initial source; they can materialize in solid forms (bodies) of various kinds if they wish ... But what is most intriguing in this case is that all of these - the primary source + its offsprings, can be creative, because in their nature and essence they are all equal - hence with equal powers for creation.
If we take this theory to be true, then I can understand the Valar's significance and importance in "finishing up", in putting the "final touch" on the grand project - Ea = Arda. But so are the Children - both - the First and the Secondborn! They too are said to be created by Eru and if it means that their fear are parts from the primary source, then they too have the same powers as the Ainur and as Eru himself!!! And in certain cases, these "bits" (the fear) may return back to the original source, thus increasing its force...But they may very well exist independantly, too. I think from such a theory sprouted the numerous discussions "Free will or pre-destination", as well as I find this theory most suitable for what Tolkien said about the fear of Men. ;) :D

Now, there is also another possibility - that Eru is a being of flesh but also having a mind and this mind possesses certain super abilities. Then, this being makes "puppets" and makes them act as if alive and creating, so that they can do the hard work for him... but only "as if"!!!
So much for the free will - matter !!! :p But I can hardly accept this theory because then it will counter Tolkien's own words about the fear of Men - that they, after the body dies, go back to his Halls... What are these Halls if not the primary source (above)?

[Helcaraxë]

Hehe. Nice theory. :D But it does, as you say contradict some of Tolkien's writings. The "little pieces of energy" if that is indeed what they are, cannot become like Eru; only Eru has the flame imperishable. And anyway, I don't think Eru is enerygy, because energy is a thing of the natural world, and Eru is higher than the natural world; he is its creator. He can best be described as the highest level of consciousness.

And I don't think he can be a thing of flesh as well as a mind, for the same reason. He created flesh, and not immediately, mind you. When he first created the Ainur, they were things of spirit, things of "disembodied consciousness" if you please. It was not until the creation of Arda that they took physical form. I believe that they couldn't take physical form at all in the creation of Arda. Arda was the first physical thing created, the first thing of stone and ice and dirt and blood that was made. And it was made after the Ainur. Perhaps this is because when Eru created Arda he made another form of being which the Ainur could pass into and out of at will? This would be consistent with the fact that Men and Elves, being created in Arda, had to remain withing their bodies until death. The feär of Men and Elves can be explained as a more limited form of a non-material existence, a more limited alteration on the "default" existence for the Ainur. Hmmmmm.......

Anyway, I think my theory still stands, because Eru is omniscient and deterministic. The feär can be though of as directly connected to Eru, in which case they are indestructible. Or, they may be conceived as seperate entities. But even in this case, should their feär external to Eru's mind be destroyed, the feär would live on inside his mind. Again, it may be said that his mind is more real than Arda.

~Helcaraxë

[Melian Le Fay]

The questions you two are asking are probably the oldest questions in the world... what happens to our spirit when we die...And is there a free will or are we all bound to unchangeable fate...?As soon as I started reading The Sil, I was under a strongest impression that Tolkien's Genesis is based upon Byblical ideas and beliefs of God and creation of the world. After all, Tolkien was a very religious man. And just being a member of our ("western" - Judo-Christianic) culture impresses certain ideas and perceptions about these truly existential questions.
I understood Eru to be just like God (Almighty) - the creator of everything, who is everything. You know what I mean. And philosophical and religious debates about God and who/what/why He is could go on forever.. which they probably will ;)
The Sil says that the Ainur are in fact Eru's thoughts, so I believe your ideas, Helcaraxe, apply here.
But for children of Eru it is said that he put his "flame imperishable" (i hope I spelled this right) into them... It is just like in Bible - God put a part of himself, a part which is everything... So, the question is:
How can a "flame imperishable" ever perish?! Can even Eru unmake that which is him...or that which is "by default" imperishable?!

I understand your idea of explaining, Lhun, but it's verry difficult to "physically" explain something which completely belongs to meta-physical domain... For what is soul ? If we strictly knew what, perhaps we could answer the thread question...
But, here we can debate, and share our ideas and primarily beliefs... not so much knowlege... I believe Tolkien wrote this based on his beliefs...

I made this parallel with biblical beliefs simply because I couldn't help not feeling the direct connection... And I don't even consider myself so much a Christian, or believer, or whatever...

And as for the free will, I am utterly convinced by some meta-physical cognition that all Tolkien's beings have it! I don't know how to prove it, but I just do.
I don't believe we're masters of our destiny. There are things in this universe you just cannot control. But, just like Gandalf says: It is what we do with the time given to us. There are opportunities, and our choices. That's my belief.

Oh, this topic is soooo interesting, please guys, don't stop posting here!! :p :D

[Helcaraxë]

The questions you two are asking are probably the oldest questions in the world... what happens to our spirit when we die...And is there a free will or are we all bound to unchangeable fate...?As soon as I started reading The Sil, I was under a strongest impression that Tolkien's Genesis is based upon Byblical ideas and beliefs of God and creation of the world. After all, Tolkien was a very religious man. And just being a member of our ("western" - Judo-Christianic) culture impresses certain ideas and perceptions about these truly existential questions.
I understood Eru to be just like God (Almighty) - the creator of everything, who is everything. You know what I mean. And philosophical and religious debates about God and who/what/why He is could go on forever.. which they probably will ;)
The Sil says that the Ainur are in fact Eru's thoughts, so I believe your ideas, Helcaraxe, apply here.

Well, the offspring of his thoughts, but certainly he reserves a "copy" of them in his mind, which in many ways is more real than Eä. This is evident in the sentence

But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Iluvatar

But for children of Eru it is said that he put his "flame imperishable" (i hope I spelled this right) into them... It is just like in Bible - God put a part of himself, a part which is everything... So, the question is:
How can a "flame imperishable" ever perish?! Can even Eru unmake that which is him...or that which is "by default" imperishable?!

Certainly. Although perhaps the Flame Imperishable goes back to Eru when the "sub-feä" dies; although the Flame Imperishable is free will, and free will is by definition separate from the entitity that created it. So you're right.

I understand your idea of explaining, Lhun, but it's verry difficult to "physically" explain something which completely belongs to meta-physical domain... For what is soul ? If we strictly knew what, perhaps we could answer the thread question...
But, here we can debate, and share our ideas and primarily beliefs... not so much knowlege... I believe Tolkien wrote this based on his beliefs...

I agree that he was heavily influenced by his theological convictions.

I made this parallel with biblical beliefs simply because I couldn't help not feeling the direct connection... And I don't even consider myself so much a Christian, or believer, or whatever...

And as for the free will, I am utterly convinced by some meta-physical cognition that all Tolkien's beings have it! I don't know how to prove it, but I just do.

They may have free will, but only the Free Peoples and the Ainur are kindled with the Flame. Everything else was sung in by the Ainur, but certainly dwell in Eru's mind as well.

I don't believe we're masters of our destiny. There are things in this universe you just cannot control. But, just like Gandalf says: It is what we do with the time given to us. There are opportunities, and our choices. That's my belief.

I believe a quote would help us out:

[Men] should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else...

Oh, this topic is soooo interesting, please guys, don't stop posting here!! :p :D

I don't intend to. :)

[Melian Le Fay]

[Men] should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else...

I always wondered about that... It is implied that Men have no fate, but all other do (Elves and Ainur). But what about free will then? What's the use of it if you're bound to your fate and cannot do anything, cannot make any choice that would alter it?!

My second question is: if Men can change their life, their destiny (fulfill it or not), wouldn't they be able to change fates of others, too? It's like ripples in the watter, they grow wider and wider... One choice can shape the future. And thus alter destinies of others... I guess... :rolleyes:

[Minuel Lasgalas]

I always wondered about that... It is implied that Men have no fate, but all other do (Elves and Ainur). But what about free will then? What's the use of it if you're bound to your fate and cannot do anything, cannot make any choice that would alter it?!

Somewhere in my reading :) Tolkien described the initial fate after death of elves and men to be a characteristic of the fëa and the hroa of the two races - as such: elves are bound to Arda and cannot leave; men are bound to leave Arda and cannot remain. In Morgoth's Ring it was said that, "Men had a shadow behind them, but the Elves had a shadow before them," a kind way of saying that the Elves were unsure of their fate at the End.

In the Sil [though I am at work and don't have it here in front of me,,,] the fëar of dead Men are first summoned by Mandos - whether they will or no (Morgoth's Ring), and pass through his Halls before leaving the Circles of the World. I also seem to remember reading that Tolkien believed that it was the nature of Man's fëar to have a strong impulse to seek Eru...

[Melian Le Fay]

So, you're saying that fate is what happens with the souls - fear of Men and Elves when they die... In which case the questions of free will and fate do not conflict; while I was thinking of fate as what happens to their souls when they live. (meaning all they do in life is bound to this fate - destiny - predestination)

[Minuel Lasgalas]

So, you're saying that fate is what happens with the souls - fear of Men and Elves when they die... In which case the questions of free will and fate do not conflict; while I was thinking of fate as what happens to their souls when they live. (meaning all they do in life is bound to this fate - destiny - predestination)

I see the word fate interchangeble with destiny no matter in death or life, but, this thought sticks in my mind [probably paraphrased]... thought I cannot place it right now:

"Eru gave his Children freewill and told the Valar the world which had been created was for them, even though they would often commit acts against the land that the Valar would not like."

Children meaning Elves and Men. So if that is true, they had freewill in the world during life; indeed the Elves were summoned to Valinor - but some were unwilling and some did not go... indicating to me, 'freewill.'

Then again, it had to be freewill within reason... for why else would he destroy the Numenoreans when they invaded Aman? ;)

[Melian Le Fay]

So, both Men and Elves have but one fate - for Men it is to leave Arda after their death, or better said, their death is their only fate (only must-do), while the Elves are bound to remain on Arda, they are bount to the inevitable fate of Arda.
But it still confuses me (I guess I consider words fate and destiny a little different) - that quote which says that Men had the virtue to shape their lives, amid the chances of the world, and beyond the music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things...

What does that quote mean?! :confused:

[Khôr’nagan]

It means that the actions of Men are not pre-destined and are independent from the fate of everything else. In other words, the actions of everything else that existed were pre-determined and 'set in stone,' as it were. The actions of Men, however, were not 'set in stone,' so that everything they did was not pre-destined. Men were completely removed from the fate of the world; their actions were not destined to happen and after their deaths they left the world to be with Ilúvatar.

Think of it this way: The entire history of the world was essentially written before it ever began, but then Eru added an additional aspect to the pre-determined history that in itself was not pre-determined. So Beren didn't have to run into Lúthien, it was a coincidence. It was not a pre-determined event, because Beren, a Man, was independent of the world and it's fate. Túrin didn't have to join the band of outlaws; he could just as easily have not if he didn't want to, beause it was not pre-determined. On the other hand Fëanor had to go after Melkor when he stole the Silmarils; it was a pre-destined event and was set in stone. Nothing could have changed that event.

If I'm being confusing then I apologize, but that's about as clear as I can make it.

[Melian Le Fay]

Yes, that's exactly as I understood it! But, again, I wonder: what's the point of free will, which is said all Iluvathar's children had it, if all you do is predestined? Then you don't have a choice, no free will!!!

And if Men are not bound to the fate of the world, if their actions have no predestination, then how could anything else have? Men are like unknown element of the equasion. Because everything they do affects everything else - e.g. Beren chose to marry Luthien, and hence came all their offsprings, who later on shaped the world... So, if you have an unknown element, how can you know the solution of the equasion? If you don't know what Men would do, how can you predestine the course of the rest of the world?! :confused:

[Minuel Lasgalas]

Yes, that's exactly as I understood it! But, again, I wonder: what's the point of free will, which is said all Iluvathar's children had it, if all you do is predestined? Then you don't have a choice, no free will!!!

And if Men are not bound to the fate of the world, if their actions have no predestination, then how could anything else have? Men are like unknown element of the equasion. Because everything they do affects everything else - e.g. Beren chose to marry Luthien, and hence came all their offsprings, who later on shaped the world... So, if you have an unknown element, how can you know the solution of the equasion? If you don't know what Men would do, how can you predestine the course of the rest of the world?! :confused:

I believe that Tolkien deliberately left this undeveloped...

The Noldor to Men: "Yes... We have met the powers that rule, and they tell us there is a higher power; but no, he hasn't informed them [or they, us] of what happens to YOU when you die... no one knows that, but him."

I can say that from what I have read that there is belief in some sort of existance beyond death - i.e., the Rohirrim have funeral rites, but... speak of no higher powers.

I think their world is comparable to our Pre-Christian world... so it makes it hard to relate. The difficulty is that there was no established Hell, Purgatory, Heaven as we know them. There is no real speculation in the writings on what it entails [Heaven, etc.] again, it seems Tolkien stayed away from that and I believe in his Letters, he says that specifically.

You say that if one doesn't know what Men would do, how can you predestine the course of the rest of the world... so, is that much different than the Now? You know, based on your beliefs, what will happen at the end of your life... what about the in-betweens? :) Consider your answer after you take away your knowledge of Hell, Purgatory and Heaven.

In the Pre-Christian world, Men simply existed... these know their fate at the end, and I think they just made the best of what they could, for they and their kin, in the times between.

Note: I don't know if Fëanor's actions were 'pre-determined,' seemed more like a moral imperative based on his oath and Melkor being who he was had to be destroyed, but again, that's just my thoughts. I haven't really sat down and considered it - so... I may agree with you later when the facts as I see them change. :D

Just musing....... and I need more coffee.

[Khôr’nagan]

I honestly am unsure of how Men tie in with the Fate of Arda, but I believe that Men's decisions led others down a certain path, but that path was already made, just not the only one to be taken. I know I'm being confusing here, so let me try and clarify what I mean:

The Fate of Arda is completely pre-determined, but the choices of Men change that predetermined path. It's like Fate was traveling within a maze that starts from one point, branches out into practically infinite paths, but all the paths ultimately converge in the end upon two possible conclusions, and every time a Man made a choice that effected others, Fate comes to a fork in the path, and that decision decides which way Fate will go. But that Path is still already made, all that is unknown is in what way Fate will arive at the end, but the end will be the one of two pre-determined events. If Men make enough bad decisions, the path Fate takes will lead it to the bad of the two ends, and visa-versa. All the things Elves and others do in reaction to what Men do are pre-determined; If Beren chose to go after Lúthien and Met her, then she was destined to marry him and become Mortal, bit if Beren didn't, then she would live out a different, but still pre-determined, fate.

If that's confusing, I understand why. But whatever. Of course there is another theory that, to me, seems more realistic:

The Fate of Arda was pre-determined, but the Fate of Men was not, and when Men made decisions that directly affected the Fate of Arda, Arda's Fate changed in whatever ways they were influenced in. For example, I do not believe that even Ilúvatar knew that Sauron would corrupt then Númenoreans and convince them to attack Aman. He may have known that Sauron would try to do so, but whatever Men decided to do was entirely up to Men, and neither he nor anyone knew what they would choose when given certain circumstances. Eru was then furious with the Númenoreans for having chosen so poorly and therefore cast their land beneath the Sundering Seas. The Fate of Arda was unknown by all because the choices of Men allowed for too great a variable to allow prediction of prior knowledge. If Isildur had cast the Ring into Orodruin, Sauron would have been ended forever and all of Middle-Earth could regain at least some peace. But if he didn't, Sauron would live on with enough strength to wield great evil still. The choice was up to Isildur and Isildur alone, and what he chose nearly brought an end to good in Middle-Earth. It was then the choices of others that would decide the outcome of everything, for though Isildur repented when he was attacked by Orcs two years after recieving the Ring and attempted to escape with the Ring to Rivendell in order to have it brought back to Mordor and destroyed, he was slain in the Gladden Fields, upon the shores of Anduin, and it was no longer his choices that would lead the fate of the World. But my point here is that no one, not even Ilúvatar, knew what the outcome of the World would be. It was up to the Ainur to attempt and accomplish what Eru and they had created. The choices of Men would influence this, possibly influence others to do things that they would not have otherwise done (such as Sauron corrupting Númenor, which I don't think even Eru knew would happen, because it only happend as a result of something Men did). But if the Ainur would fail or succeed, none save maybe Eru alone knew, and even he did not know in what way the world would unfold that would result in the accomplishment of his will. Again I say this is just a theory I have.

Now, as for Free Will, I suppose no one had free will but Men. It was fated that Lúthien would love Beren and would thus want to marry him, so essentially you could say that everyone did what they did because of their hearts, and their hearts being pre-determined therefore made their choices also predetermined. As for Men, their decisions too were all based upon their hearts, but since the Hearts of Men were what was unknown and different from everything else, their choices were also unknown and impossible to predict.

But these are just my thoughts, and I'm not confident that they are necessarily correct.

[Helcaraxë]

Interesting theories. But in the first one, it still would not be predestined which of the two possible end results would occur. In the second, you say that Eru did not know that Numenoreans would be corrupted. But I think Tolkien makes it clear that he is a deterministic being. Thus, my own theory is that Men are not bound to the "Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else" (Silmarillion), but they are still powerless to change its ultimate course. Thus Mandos's prophecy regarding the Last Battle will still prove to be true regardless of Men's actions. Men's actions would, of course, be free, but they would also have an effect on Arda. However, this effect still could not change its ultimate fate. The problem, now, is how Eru could predict Men's actions if they were free, even if they didn't affect the ultimate fat of Arda. The old free will vs. determinism problem.