Scholar-sponsored discussions

[Elfarmari]

Ok, here are some questions from the cottage of lost lore (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=9873) thread. If you have any additional quotes or thoughts, or more questions, please add them! Also, if you know that any of these topics have already been discussed, please let me know. The idea is to put together ideas and quotes and then post threads for discussion in the book fora.

1) Rather than wondering what kind of creature Tom Bombadil was, I would like to ask this - Are Tom and Goldberry the same kind of being? Would you put them in the same category/race? Why (not)?
(Mirabella) I reread "In the House of Tom Bombadil" just last night as I pondered my response to this question. I have never been satisfied with the commonly accepted belief that Tom and Goldberry were Maiar, or the even more (IMO) implausible suggestion that they are Valar. What struck me as I read last night, were the many references to nature that were used to describe Tom and Goldberry and their actions. (jallan) Tom of course was also, according to Tolkien, the spirit of the Berkshire countryside, though probably not really meaning (or only meaning) spirit in its strictly literal sense.

Tolkien may expect us to consider Tom and Goldberry as the human sides of basically inhuman powers.

Also, Tolkien intended both of them to be mysterious in their origins, abilities and kind. When an author creates a mysterious stranger that being may be just as mysterious to the author as to the reader, for that was the author’s intention.


2) How exactly did Sauron manage to salvage the One Ring from the destruction of Numenor? In letter #211, Tolkien tells us that Sauron indeed had the One with him in Numenor, and also
Quote:
Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.

How are spirits able to carry material objects? Why should we not question this? Because Tolkien had no appropriate explanation for it? Or something more complex, which I do not seem to grasp?
(jallan) In Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), “Myths Transformed”, VIII, Orcs, Tolkien speculates about Maiar who have become incarnate as Orcs and their deaths:
Quote:
When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be ‘damned’: i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).

If Tolkien could speculate that a spirits weaker than Sauron might be able to manipulate matter when disembodied, then indeed one might well imagine that the more powerful Sauron would be able to do so, at least enough to carry off the Ring with which he had a psychic link in any case.

3) From "TLOTR; Many Meetings":
Quote:
Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside, and took a good look at Frodo. The colour had come back to his face, and his eyes were clear, and fully awake and aware. He was smiling, and there seemed to be little wrong with him. But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside upon the coverlet.
`Still that must be expected,' said Gandalf to himself. `He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.'

Quite simply - what do you think Gandalf meant by that?

(I think this one would be interesting to just post the question and see people's thoughts)

[Isthir]

Of the Questions of Lost Lore


That of Tom Bombadil
Tom is one of those elusive characters when one attempts to learn more of him. However I can shed some light as to his origins, though with every single question answered it is inevitable that four more are raised.

The possibilities of Tom’s race: Elf, Maia, Vala, Eru himself, and lastly a Spirit


¤ Elf: Disproved through his own words in FotR: “When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already…”


¤ Maia: A common idea, though one construed through a lack of better options. The problem with this assumption is that Tom is unaffected by the One’s power, nor does he desire to posses it after placing it upon his finger. Even those of Maia origin (ie Gandalf) have stated themselves that if they were to take the ring they would overthrow Sauron, only to replace him. The power of the One is pointed out by JRRT himself:

The power of the Ring over all concerned, even the Wizards or Emissaries, is not a delusion – but it is not the whole picture, even of the then state and content of that part of the Universe.


¤ Vala: It is conceivable that a Vala would be able to resist the power, and lure, of the Ruling Ring. Is it possible then that Tom was of the Powers? I must say nay, for all the names of the Valar are named for us. Although, it is said in the Silmarillion that the Valar have many names amongst the tongues of ME, especially that of Men, causing it to be a possibility that Tom was a Vala incognito. However, this entire theory wavers when Tom’s own words are analysed.

”Eldest, that’s what I am… Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn… He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from the Outside

Through the readings of the BoLT we know that Melkor came before all other Valar into Arda, causing Tom (from his own accusation) to be before the Dark Lord. Yes, it is possible that he spoke of Sauron, though I believe this to not be, for Tom states that it was fearless in those days, and Sauron came after Morgoth. Along with this Sauron appeared in the tales during times of great fear and evil.


¤ Eru Ilúvatar: Through looking at Tom’s powers and words, it is possible that he was the embodiment of Eru himself, though this is easily tossed aside when the Letters of JRR Tolkien are looked at again, for within them JRRT states that ‘There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers’ With Eru meaning The One, and he himself being the one god, for he created each of the Ainur and Valar, this passage dismisses the idea of Tom being Eru.


¤ A Spirit: This would be the most plausible origin for the mysterious Tom, IMO. As jallan stated, he indeed seems to be the spirit of the Berkshire countryside. By spirit I mean: brownie, fay, leprawn, or nature spirit, for all came before the Valar and are mighty in power.


Through this analysis I would most believe that Tom is that of a Spirit that has endured through all the Ages. Though this is my opinion, and all others are free to make their own.


-Isthir