Do you know Harry Potter? Do you think its author copied Tolkien? (merged threads)

[Lossen Vana]

Ok that is what I said. It dosn't mean it makes it a bad book. It just means it's not the origanal. Honestly Wormtounge reminds me of Snape, and Frodo, of Harry Potter, Small and not really all that brave but able to stand up to a reserecting, Saron/Voldermort type char. There is a fellowship and Hermimonie reminds me of a headstrong elf that dose wonders with magic, Ron is a Dwarf, not truely bright (happens to hate hermione at first then became friends just like Gimli and Legolas). There are the trolls that look simalar and have almost the same IQ, then there is Dobey, do I have to say Gollum rip off? Master this master that. I likes to be free, and a sock is my presious! LOL. Ok I'm a Harry Potter fan. Although not like LOTR. I think that is much better the way it is made.

And another thing about Potter and Malfloy, dosen't it always seam that the first thing they do is whip out there wand to settle a problem! [lol]

[smeagol444]

why do u have to be so rude? iF you paid attention to literature, you'd find that most stories have a foe, a friend etc. The way the characters interact with eachother, behave, the total outcome of the stories, the environment, the witty humour, the dialogue and just about everything else is different to tlotr?
why can't you just accept them as two brilliant (and different) series? It's pathetic really.

[Lossen Vana]

Ok there is no use argueing with a potter fan so I'm not even going to try. I just have to mention that LOTRs was around first. And I did say they were both great books but I did say one sounded alot like the other.

[smeagol444]

mmm
well if you feel that way (i don't see how u can just stop liking the book) than maybe you should just keep it to yourself. I mean no harm and i respect your opinion but i'm sooo sick of constantly having to justify my liking hp. obviously i'm a massive lotr fan also...

[FoolOfATook]

I too see no reason why enjoying Harry Potter precludes one from enjoying LOTR, or vice versa. There are certainly elements in Ms. Rowling's work that are inspired by LOTR, but this is true of virtually every "fantasy" work that has been written since LOTR. I don't think for a second that Harry Potter approaches the epic scale of LOTR, but LOTR is almost never as much pure, innocent fun as Harry Potter.

[Lossen Vana]

Yes that is true. Potter is a very good book, and more less more holsome and less bloody. It is a cute book and a very good read.

I read at one point or another that all books were based on 5 books The bible, Beawulf, and the other three I can't remeber. Which genrally I think is true.

[smeagol444]

and also remeber that harry potter is targeted at younger children, and i don't think you could could find a better story for an eight yr old. lotr is a much higher standard of reading which makes them more difficult to compare.
I think the harry potter books are very witty.

[Lossen Vana]

I agree it is a perfect book for the age group it is targeted too. And when they get older I'm sure alot of them will become LOTRs fans. :D

[Courtney]

I don't see very many similarities at all. First of all, Harry Potter takes place on earth in (I am assuming) the present time. LOTR takes place in Middle Earth with completely different races, societies and histories. I don't think the two books are even comparable.
By the way I love both LOTR and HP, although LOTR will always be my favorite since I fell in love with it before HP was even written...

[Emowyn]

lol I read an argument like this a while ago and so i compared the books. It is indeed very VERY like LOTR in deeper ways than you may all first notice. But here's abit of advice which answers that and will help alot when looking at other stuff:
NOTHING is original, it always came from somwhere else.
Think about it, it's ture ;)

[Lossen Vana]

Very True LOL

[smeagol444]

O have mercy on us feeble harry potter lovers----or even better, read them and enjoy and don't compare.

heehee
(and well done to courteny for stating my opinon)

[Lossen Vana]

Funny but that is my name IRL...LOL!

[???]

They don't have barely anything in common. Harry Potter did copie some stuff from LOTR, though.

[Courtney]

They are completely different styles of books, even though they are both fantasy. Everything anyone ever does is based on their past experiences, but that does not mean that HP is a rip off of LOTR. If basing what you write on your own experiences is copying others or stealing ideas, then every book ever written is ripped off of something else... including LOTR.

[Jesse]

Harry Potter is targeted for younger children. I'm 15 and I used to participate in 2 HP forums. The Chamber of Secrets & Cinescape's HP forum. I'd rather talk about a series that's already been written then a series that is yet to be completed. Plus people debate on those forums who will fall in love with who, etc........ it's sad.

[Wonko The Sane]

It's not...and I state my opinions why here:
Harry Potter Vs. LotR (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=1225)

[annalovesviggo]

Ok, firstly I would like to state that I love Harry Potter, but you can't help but notice the many similarities between the two books. I shall state them to make my point

Gandalf- Dumbledore...the wise old wizard who give the less wise hero some guidance

The dementors- the Nazgul...wearing all black with hoods.

Frodo- Harry...tragic hero.

Wormtounge- Wormtail...the pathetic spy, even their names are similar.

The Dark Lord- both, at the height of their power, lost everything except their spirits which remained. They began to get stronger, and each needed one thing to return to full power- Lord Voldemort, the Philosophers Stone- Sauron, the Ring.

Dobby- Gollum, already mentioned, 'master this, master that'

Sam- Ron- obvious!

There are more that I am sure I could think of but can't be bothered to write them all down. I feel bad about HP, I love those books too!

[tookish-girl]

Although, I too find this debate very annoying. Especially when people claim that Rowling made (and I quote) "Shorter and shittier" versions of Lord of the Rings (which I read earlier on this forum today).
The two are very different. The structure of the stories as a start, one is a journey through a country, one take place mainly in the one location of Hogwarts.

The only thing I can see that is a copy is the name Dumbledorr, which appears in a poem in Tolkien's Unfinished Tales (possibly Errantry.....) This apart from the fact that they are wizaerds and magic in is the only direct "copying" I've come across.

[annalovesviggo]

Oh come on, there are more similarites to them! As I said b4 in my list, the way they guided the hero (Frodo and Harry), and the whole aura about them! By the way, i am not saying rowling actually copied tolkien, although it is a bit suspicious. for all we know she may just think like him! Great minds think alike and all that.
Oh, I thought of some more similarities!
The spiders- Bilbo encounters many (in the hobbit) in mirkwood, HP in the forest too. Then the one big spider- hp in the maze in the 4th book, frodo in shelobs lair which is also like a maze.

there was another one but i can't remember it- oh well!

[spirit]

Originally posted by tookish-girl
Although, I too find this debate very annoying. Especially when people claim that Rowling made (and I quote) "Shorter and shittier" versions of Lord of the Rings (which I read earlier on this forum today).

'shorter and shitter' i said that. and it is really true

[spirit]

dude and dudetts can we all agree that lotr is better than HP! and u should trulely mean it beacause it is true!!!

[Lossengondiel]

hmm..actually I think that Harry Potter is very much an original storyline and I applaude both JRR Tolkien and JK Rowling for a job well done!

[S & R Gamgee]

Before I read LOTR I read HP. After I read LOTR i reread HP. As I read HP the thought popped into my head there is quite a bit of similarities. Like HP, What is he? An orphan who is being taken care of by his uncle. What is Frodo? An orphan who is being taken care of by hie cosin kinda but in the movie his uncle. What is HP's pupose in life? To defeat Voldemort (The Dark Lord). What is Frodo's purpose in life? To defeat Sauron (The Dark Lord). Dumbeldore was originally used in a book by Tolkien. Who does Hp have helping him? Friends. Who does Frodo have helping him? Friends. They also had wizards helping them (Gandalf and Dumbeldore). If its just a coincedence it's a little too much of a coincedence.

[Elendil3119]

In my opinion, the similarities between HP and LotR are more than coincidences. I think it should be quite obvious that Rowling used LotR as (at very least) a model.

[FoolOfATook]

It's called an archetype, not plagarism.

[Beleg]

Dumbeldore was originally used in a book by Tolkien.

Gimme a Quote. Otherwise that's as far-fetched idea as their was one. Who does Hp have helping him? Friends. Who does Frodo have helping him? Friends.

Right, next time i read any story where "friends" help someone I'll surely accuse the person of taking the idea's from Tolkien. Offcourse no one before has written about "friends and friendship"

They also had wizards helping them (Gandalf and Dumbeldore).

Right, and who Potter himself is? A wizard. Surely a Wizard would help him, i can't see a muggle doing that. And Gandalf and Dumbldore are entirely different types of Wizards. And except for a white beard nothing is similar in them.

Like HP, What is he? An orphan who is being taken care of by his uncle. What is Frodo? An orphan who is being taken care of by hie cosin kinda but in the movie his uncle.

1. Movie is not the books itself, thus not a valid source.

2. So with this merit, if a person in a story is an orphan and his relatives care for him then the idea's of the story are surely stolen from Tolkien.

What is HP's pupose in life? To defeat Voldemort (The Dark Lord). What is Frodo's purpose in life? To defeat Sauron (The Dark Lord).

I think you need to reread Both books. Harry's purpose is not destroying or eliminating Voldie, he lives a normal life but in one way or the other's, through plot twists encounters Voldemort or evil in every year of his Hogwarts life.

[S & R Gamgee]

In The adventures of Tom Bombadill and other verses from the red book it has a story that says "she fought with Dumbeldores." I'm not at all saying that anyone who has friends helping them stole the idea from Tolkien. Just considering the similarities I just added that as another similaritie.

[Beleg]

"she fought with Dumbeldores."

The meaning of Dumbledore is an old English word Bumblebee, so it is better suited in this context. Perhaps other people more inteligent than me will be able to shed some light on the origin of the Word Dumbledore and Bumblebee.

As for Friendship, most of the stories preech friendship and friends help friends, that's the norm of life and one doesn't necessarily have to read lOTR to understand this.
And what are the other Similarities? Can you please Explain?
And also I am not sure if we can give cross-forum links. Like can I provide a link from TD or Vice-Versa? If yes then there was a #nexcellent discussion on this topic which can be viewed on the sistersite Tolkien Debates.

[S & R Gamgee]

Ok, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It's just been in my head so I just had to get it out and disscuss it with other LOTR fans. If I offended you please forget anything I said about this subject.

[Beleg]

The fact is not about offence or offending. Why should I be offended? You have made no personal attack at me or any such thing. I just ask you to put forward some points that have some validity in them, points which you can back up with Quotes. What are the other similiarities you were talking about?

[S & R Gamgee]

If you read the top thing that is all the similarities I can think of right now. I don't mean for it to sound as if I was saying Rowling diliberatly copied from Tolkien just to me that is kinda what it seems like. I don't mean to say anything bad against Rowling. I like both the books but I cant help noticing the similarities.

[Beleg]

Well they might seem to be "similarities to your mind", but to me they are just concidences and some of the above points are the essential components of some of the very best novels/stories worldwide.

[Beorn]

Check out this thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1225)

[BlackCaptain]

A Dumbledore was a monsterous insect found in Hobbit tales. I don't have a quote, but it's true.

The Movie? The movie is very inacurate at times. Being adopted by your uncle is really no big deal, and it's a very different situation. Harry was adopted by an Aunt and Uncle with a bratty son, and they treat Harry like dirt. Frodo was taken under bilbo's ring, and treated with ALOT of respect.

Frodo's purpose in life was NOT to defeat Sauron. It was the purpose of one year of his life, while Harry has memories of Voldemort from his toddlerhood.

Friends. In just about every single book I have ever read, the character has friends helping him along the way, and the relationship between Harry and Ron/Hermoine is very different from that of Frodo and Sam/Merry/Pippin. Harry and Ron/Hermoinie is a 'I've got your back' sort of relationship. They're always there for Harry. Frodo and Sam's relationship is the kind two Brothers would have. Frodo and Sam's is much deeper

Wizards. So it's not right for Wizards to help defeat the Darkness? Sure the Wizards are helping, but what would you expect them to do? Just sit by and not let anything happen? Of course the Wizards are gonna help

[FoolOfATook]

Blackcaptain is right, Dumbledors (minus the second "e") were insects in Middle-earth, although I wouldn't call them monstrous. To quote J.E.A. Tyler's wonderful The New Tolkien Companion:
Dumbledors: A piece of comic invention in the Hobbit style. The Dumbledors were insects, vanquished by the hero in Bilbo's poem 'Errantry', which can be found in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

Pretty much everything else Blackcaptain said is dead-on as well. :D

[S & R Gamgee]

There are quite a bit of similarities. Like Old Man Willow and The Womping Willow. Both violent.

[FoolOfATook]

There are quite a bit of similarities. Like Old Man Willow and The Womping Willow. Both violent.

So are the trees in The Wizard Of Oz. Perhaps Tolkien was ripping off Frank Baum? ;)

[S & R Gamgee]

When was the wizard of oz made? I'm not saying he was ripping him off or anything. If you notice the word "similarities" I belive it says that not "copying" I'm not saying anybody copied him. I'm just saying they have certain similarities that I can't help but notice.

[Lantarion]

Yes, I agree. And I also think that they are especially noticable in the HP series; although that isn't necessarily a bad thing.. ;)
The WoO was made long before the LotR, I should expect.. Some time in the thirties, wasn't it? Ol'gafffer would probably know, he's a movie buff.
But as Tolkien set the standard for fantasy novels (which, many might say, has been raised by others since then), I think it's impossible to not have an element of Tolkien in every single fantasy novel/series out there. Most, if not all of the more recent fantasy authors have probably read the LotR, and perhaps even the Sil, but that doesn't mean they were aiming to make their stories like Tolkien's.

[FoolOfATook]

The WoO was made long before the LotR, I should expect.. Some time in the thirties, wasn't it? Ol'gafffer would probably know, he's a movie buff.

This cinema geek knows! The film was made in 1939, the books were written around the turn of the century.

I wasn't being serious, by the by, just trying to make a point.

[BlackCaptain]

Your gonna find all kinds of similarites in just about everything. I told my friend that I associated Stairway to Heaven with a LOTR theme and he said that you could relate *insert witty similarity here that no one would ever think about and never makes much sense*. Dumbeldore and Dobby were the only major simalarities I found.

And in another book i started reading, the wizards were the Istar. Now that is very near the edge of copying. In a game I got, theres some dark elf chick named Manwe. Copying, but with so many fantasy seiries', its hard to come up with brand new fresh ideas that havent been used. My idea would be to have a blanket of the night and a quilt of the day... er the other way around with the patches of the quilts being stars. Thats the most original thing I would be able to think of, and you have to give modern day authors some room to breathe. But Dumbledore and Dobby, again, are just flagerant

[Aerin]

Kudos to FoaT for knowing that the Wizard of Oz was based off of Frank Baum's books.

If you look at nearly every fantasy book, every movie, and story... guess what! They all share common themes. *gasp, faint* I know, crazy, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Pick up any book, and you can find themes that run through every other book. Friendship, magic (applies for fantasy, and some sci-fi), adoption, fighting a very powerful dark figure.... You could almost call them the 'themes of life', because they're everywhere you look.
Not everyone is ripping off Tolkien's works. R. Jordan, on the other hand.... :D

[33Peregrin]

I read all of the HP five times before I ever thought an ounce about LOTR. Then I read LOTR four times. I did see many similarities....... and they did bother me at first. I always saw the dementors and the Black Riders, Dumbledore and Gandalf, Whomping Willow and Old Willow, Dark Lord stuff, Dobby and Gollum, Aragog and Shelob...... well this could go one for ages. The simlilarity that bothered me the most was Harry letting Peter Petigrew live, and Peter being in Harry's debt, and Saruman trying to kill Frodo, but Frodo letting him live. With all the debt.
Anyways, I was at first pretty upset with all of these similarities... but after my fourth go at LOTR, I decided to take a break. My friends have gotten me pretty excited about the fifth HP book, and I decided to give HP another go. I have managed to get my copies from brother (they're the only books he reads) and am reading the second one. It is right here... open to the page I am on. I am even making my brother a wand.
I am enjoying it. I don't cringe at the similarities, I don't mind. HP is a good book...... and Jo Rowling is a very imaginitive author. Anyways, I don't really see how you can write any fantasy without going back to LOTR...... Everything I have read since LOTR is full of similarities. I even saw a book in the bookstore one time called The Paths of the Dead.

HP is a very good book, but LOTR is still much better.
My hope is that one day all of the HP fans I know will read LOTR.
Then they will see.

[Eliot]

Originally posted by 33Peregrin
Then they will see.

Ah, so true. :D

[BlackCaptain]

Im tryin to get my mom to read LOTR again... She read it in college and forgot everything. And loves HP

[Wynston]

I didn't have time to read this whole thread but I do want to comment here. I think its purely coincedental. Rowling is using a genre that was in large part pioneered and made very popular by Tolkien. I think she even said she never read LoTR. Almost every work of Fantasy literature, RPGs, etc., that came after LoTR was to some degree influenced by it, and in some cases comes close to plagirizing it, purposefully or not.

[smeagol444]

Please excuse me if i may be mistaken but if my memory serves me correctly, people have been over this topic like a million times on this forum. if you would like opinions on the matter, I suggest you take a look at them. Poor little Harry- The books are brilliant and yes somewhat similiar but who cares? Its brought alot of life into people's day. Let them both be great together.

[Legolin]

Have you ever noticed all of the similarities between the Harry Potter series and LOTR?

Dementors=Ring Wraiths

Harry Potter=Frodo

Gandalf=Dumbledore

Voldomort(sp?)=Sauron/Morgoth

Wormtail=Wormtongue (whoa, major simlilarities- and i'm not just talking names!)

got more? post 'em!

and, i say PLAIGARISM!

[S & R Gamgee]

Yes exactly alot of similarities I don't know about plagerism. I've been telling everyone about the similarities forever.

[Bergile]

Yes there are similarities but so what? I mean no offence to Tolkien or Rowling or whoever but it isn't all that hard to think of a big evil person trying to take over the world or evil people with dark hoods or giant spiders. They're just thinks you would naturally think of, i suppose.

[faila]

its caled there hasnt been much orignial fantasy since tolkien...... the worst in the Sword of Shanara series by **** i cant remember his name.

[Saruman_Sauron]

Do you think J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter´s author copied the fantastic and brilliant mind of J.R.R. Tolkien?
If you have read the sequence of Harry Potter you must hade found many similarities between these boths. But even though J.K. Rowling´s work does not get even to Tolkien´s heels, and I´m quite sure of that.
The similarities I deduce are:
-Rowling put on her second book "Harry Potter and the chamber of the Secrets" a spider name Aaragog, she desciribed it as a huge black spider, so as Tolien did in his last book, "The Return of the King", of his trilogy "The Lord of the Rings".
-Rowling on her third book "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" she introduce to us all the Dementors, as she call them, but it is simply a copied of the fined work Tolkien did, the Ringwraiths or the Nazguls. She described the Dementors as a beast that could not be seen his face, they wore long dark tunics, and they soak all happiness from the wizards.
-Rowling also included on her first book, "Harry Potter and the Philosopher´s Stone", a mirror called "The Mirror of Erised", and if you surveyed it you would find it quite familiar to something you´ve read before. Of course to Galadriel´s Mirror.

Well, I don´t remember more than that right now.
And you know what Rowling said: that she read lord of the rings once and she will never read again, cause when she reads she likes more than that.

[Sarde]

And you know what Rowling said: that she read lord of the rings once and she will never read again, cause when she reads she likes more than that.

I don't get that. What does she like more than what and why is that a problem?

I like Harry Potter, but I do not think it copies Tolkien. And even if it does, Harry Potter is nowhere near as wonderful as Tolkien. The scary things aren't quite as scary, the touching things aren't quite as touching etc. Harry Potter is adorable, funny and enjoyable, but Tolkien is grand, universal, unforgettable.

[smeagol444]

hmm this topic and been discussed so very many times i've grown rather tiresome of defending jk rowling. but yes i do think Tolkein is nothing short of a genius and that rowling takes just a little too much inspiration from his work. but really, they are incomparable pieces of literature and have nothing to do with eachother except for some similarities. they're both aimed at completely different audiences and the storylines couldn't be more unlike. if your interested in this weary little debate i suggest you take a look at the lord of the rings vs. harry potter thread in related topics. its got lots of pages of people repeating themselves, as i have just done. enjoy the forum! :)

[Saruman_Sauron]

I don't get that. What does she like more than what and why is that a problem?

I like Harry Potter, but I do not think it copies Tolkien. And even if it does, Harry Potter is nowhere near as wonderful as Tolkien. The scary things aren't quite as scary, the touching things aren't quite as touching etc. Harry Potter is adorable, funny and enjoyable, but Tolkien is grand, universal, unforgettable.

That when she reads she likes more than what Tolien wrote, she said that Tolkien´s work was a ****, and was not so goo so she won´t read it again.

I like Harry Potter too, and even though I still think she did copy Tolkien. She´s eluding everything. I reckon she never thought that Tolkien´s book will becom popular so she stole his ideas.
BTW I´m Seymar from Costa Rica were are you all from¡

If you want to add something to a post, you can push the edit button to add on. I merged a few of your posts using this method. Welcome--Elgee

[smeagol444]

hi seymar, nice country you live in! i'm annie and i'm from australia.

with regard to what rowling said about tolkein, i'm a bit confused because i've read that Rowling is actually a great fan of Tolkein's work, and enjoys the books very much so. That would be a reasonable explanation as too why she gets ideas from lord of the rings, because she likes them.. :confused:

[Sarde]

I like Harry Potter too, and even though I still think she did copy Tolkien. She´s eluding everything. I reckon she never thought that Tolkien´s book will becom popular so she stole his ideas.

Tolkien's books were popular before the movies ever existed. They have always been quite popular.

[Melian Le Fay]

Do not forget that even Tolkien himself didn't "invent hot water". His stories and ideas are in many ways derived not only from mythologies and legends of different cultures, but are also derived from universal human ideas, hopes and perceptions. Like Tolkien's "Braking of the world", doesn't that remind you of Byblical Judgement Day..., etc. My point is that there are so many things - parts of our collective culture that are naturally used by many authors. I mean not just the everlasting concept of good vs. evil, but many others. Therefore I don't believe that J.K. Rowling is copying Tolkien, I rather believe they're both using the same "cultural or mythological templates". Of course, I'm not saying that any of these authors lack originality, I'm saying that's normal and natural - to base your own ideas upon ones with universal and timless values.
I have to agree with Sarde - I also think Harry Potter is very cute and interesting, but I still like - no, LOVE - Tolkien's work better. But that's just my own taste. ;)

[jallan]

If Rowling has read Tolkien, and I suspect she has, then naturally there will be some influence. She might even have occasionally thought to herself that she wanted to put a little Tolkien feel into some incident or consciously taken bits of him into her own work.

But there are many more writers out there who are far more obviously influenced by Tolkien than Rowling.

On the other hand, Tolkien admitted his Orcs/Goblins were very much based on George MacDonald's goblins in The Princess and the Goblin. There are other borrowings from George MacDonald in Tolkien. Especially and oddly the dreams that the Hobbits have in Tom Bombadil's house are too close a similar account of dreams in MacDonald's Lilith, chapter XXXIX (http://www.classicreader.com/read.php/sid.1/bookid.1048/sec.40/) to be coincidental, particularly the dream of rising water. Tolkien's original draft version is closer still. Old Man Willow may well owe its existence to the evil Ash tree in MacDonald's Phantastes, chapter 3 (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/gm/phantastes/3.html) and following. Here also we have a forest of trees that become more awake at night. Or compare the arrival of Tom Bombadil singing nonsense verse to the arrival of Curdie singing nonsense verse in The Princess and the Goblin, chapter 6, page 3 (http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/George_MacDonald/The_Princess_and_the_Goblin/The_Little_Miner_p3.html). Both drive off evil beings by singing.

Tolkien's original writing in The Book of Lost Tales came from an attempt to write fantasies in somewhat the style of William Morris. Also, Aragorn surely owes something to James Fennimore Cooper's Natty Bumpo (Hawkeye). Tolkien remembers in his essay "On Fairy Stories" that he very much enjoyed stories aboutt American Indians as a child and he could hardly have avoided Cooper.

On can go on and on in finding other examples of Tolkien putting things into his work that he did not wholly invent. But the same can be found for his sources. There's not much point in blaming authors for such things if they mix the material properly and even if they don't as long as it reads well enough.

Am I the only person who finds Gandalf to have a little bit of the same feel as Sherlock Holmes?

In any case I don't find Rowling very close. The Mirror of Erised, for example is not much like the Mirror of Galadriel. The motif of an enchanted mirror which shows things other than a simple reflection is far older than Tolkien. In legend Nostradamas is credited with seeing the future in a bowl of water that was colored with ink.

[Saruman_Sauron]

smeagol nice country too! in what part of Australia do you live in? Do you go and watch the Australian Open? that was awesome.
By the way, I really think that Rowling said that because she try to elude everything they said about she copying tolkien.
SARDE I think that Tolien´s books were quite popular but not too much as they are now with the movies released, I think that for those who didin´t know about LOTR enjoyed it now with the movies. :D

If someone really like Harry Potter you can go to www.harrypotter.com/platform (http://www.harrypotter.com/platform) their are the message boards. I´m in Herbology Class Notes, Quidditch Training, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, and Harry Potter General Discussion.
You can look for me as flagarate. :D

How can I get a photo as you guys?

My cousin is Galardwelin the mixed of Galadriel and Arwen

Merged posts. . .Elgee

[smeagol444]

smeagol nice country too! in what part of Australia do you live in? Do you go and watch the Australian Open? that was awesome.
By the way, I really think that Rowling said that because she try to elude everything they said about she copying tolkien. :D

i live in n.s.w, about 5 hrs drive north of sydney in a wee city called tamworth. it really isn't much of a city, but that call it that and it boosts our authority.
By the way, i'm too tired to argue about that

[Saruman_Sauron]

i live in n.s.w, about 5 hrs drive north of sydney in a wee city called tamworth. it really isn't much of a city, but that call it that and it boosts our authority.
By the way, i'm too tired to argue about that
Smeagol, how can I get a picture like yourd when you post a message?

[Gary Gamgee]

Harry Potter like LotR? Never.

Of course it is, can you think of any other fantasy that hasnt been influenced by the original? LotR is the original. So of course its going to be copied. I actually dont mind that. Star Wars was inspired by LotR. And that was a huge part of my childhood. Tolkien himself was inspired other things like Beowulf(sp?).

Anyway I like Harry Potter and there are more differences than there are similarities.

Ack

[Melian Le Fay]

Star Wars was inspired by LOTR? Cool! I didn't know that...
Tolkien was inspired by mythology and legends of many different cultures, but he implemented those motifs in a most original way, giving us a wonderfull piece of literature... which goes beyond just books - the proof is this forum, for example...
My friends who have been lovers of Tolkien's work for many years, and read tons of other fantasy fiction say that Tolkien is like The Bible of fantasy... a must-read and the beggining of all (epic fantasy ;) ) things...

[Saruman_Sauron]

Lotr Compare To Star Wars? In What Fiction World Do You Live In?

[Melian Le Fay]

Lotr Compare To Star Wars? In What Fiction World Do You Live In?
What do you mean by that?

[celebdraug]

i think he means that the historical kind of background is different. you cant really compare SW and LotR

[Melian Le Fay]

Of course, but if you "peel off" all the historical backgrounds and the milleu it was written in, some basic stuff remains - good vs. evil, a hero that has to bare all the weight of the battle, his friends which aid him on his way...
I agree any comparison is very blur, but I believe SW could have been inspired by LOTR. It's the sence of epic, eternal battle of good and evil, "plain" heroes, development and growth of each character through their fight and toil, bla, bla, bla... But I believe that the new SW (ep. I & II) spoiled very much that sense of "epic" and "a history turning into myth"... as much as SWever had those...
BUT TOLKIEN RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

[pipin]

lisin does it rely matter if she got some ideas from him i mean who cares as long as she dosnt take the beast parts of his work

[jallan]

Star Wars was also inspired by the Flash Gordon serials and comic strips which were in part inspired by Edgar Rice Burrough’s Martian books ... which J.R.R. Tolkien once asserted to have liked and which might have influenced him also.

[Paul]

I read in the tolkien encylopedia that tolkien named one of his insects dumbledore thought it was funny!

[joxy]

Someone began a thread which questioned whether H Shore copied another composer. That produced a protest that copying was the worst thing anyone could be accused of, and the thread title had to be changed. I didn't take that seriously, and I don't think there's anything wrong with this thread, but I'd like to know why anyone should actually think the two sets of books ahd anything to do with each other! H Potter is full of wizards; LOTR has three of them; is that sufficient to suggest that HP was copied from LOTR? :confused: :D

For SS:

Three Rings for the Elven Kings under the sky
Seven Rings for the Dwarf Lords in their hall of stone
Nine Rings for Men doomed to die
One Ring for the Dark Lord on his Dark Throne
In the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie...
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them..
In the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie...

[jallan]

Harry Potter is also somewhat resembles Tim Hunter, who started out as a bespeckled fourteen-year old wizard in D.C. comics. See Tim Hunter (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/thunter.htm).

Of course Tim Hunter doesn’t go to a magical academy, until very recently, long after the Harry Potter books became popular.

[numen]

This may have been discussed before, and if it has i am sorry..... but, I have read the Harry Potter books(due to my bro's pestering) and well, there are so many simliarites between it and LOTR. I was rather angry.

1) Dumbledore - How Gandalf can you get?

2)Lord Volermort (sp?) or "he who should not be named" Ok that phrase was copied right out of LOTR. I think Boromir says it -i'll check. But it was def someone from Gondor, or Rohan. Maybe Eomer, actually i am sure it was Eomer.

3) Huge spider in book erm..2? named "Aragog"- right, like she made that up herself. Has she heard of plagurism?

4) HARRY-Hes an orpan who gets taken in by his uncle. Sound familiar?

5) Dobby (sp?)- Gollum like creature in appearnce.

Theres loads more i wrote down, but i left in my room. I'll post that later.

Numen

[Greenwood]

I have not read any of the Harry Potter books, but to play Devil's Advocate here for a second for Ms. Rowling (Dowling?), many of the things you point out are not exactly unique to LOTR either: wizards, orphans, giant spiders, evil personages you do not mention by name, etc. These can be found in many fantasies, legends, myths, etc. and I believe JRRT would be the first to tell you that were he around. He "borrowed" (the correct word would be was "inspired" by) many older myths, particularly Norse and Finnish legends. You can find various of the LOTR character's names in those legends.

[Sarah]

1) Dumbledore - How Gandalf can you get?



Tolkien actually thought up that name. I forget where he wrote it. It was the name of a creature in a child's poem, then it was never mentioned again.

[numen]

Tolkien actually thought up that name. I forget where he wrote it. It was the name of a creature in a child's poem, then it was never mentioned again.

Really? thats interesting. Which poem was it and in which book?

Greenwood- I know what Tolkien was inspired by myths and legends and often borrowed older myths. But Rowling appears to have copied plot lines from LOTR. It is very similar when you read it. Also what i can't forgive her for is the "he who shall not be named" stealing. That is a line used more tha once in LOTR by Faramir and Eomer, and Rowling lifts it straight out.

I guess perhaps that some of the similaites may be incidental, but there is so many of them. Maybe they both were inspired by trhe same myths or something. I think that the potter books are ok, they are kids books after all, but they are enteraining.
maybe i am wrong!

[Starflower]

i think you are trying to read too much into the story, after all there is no copyright on elves and dwarves and wizards and magic...they are all common heritage. As for Voldemort , any fantasy book you read has an evil figure, and it is fairly common not to name the being, as naming brings attention to the speaker... so I see no ripping off there. Dumbledore - the character certainly has Gandalf- like qualities, but I see them more as homage, paying respects to the great master than ripping off. Aragog - yes, there is shelob in LOTR but Aragog does not really resemble her that much, and the name is certainly not Tolkienish. Dobby- scrawny little creature with large ears , but that's where any similarity ends. Harry being an orphan - so are many great literary heroes, from Oliver Twist onwards...

I don't know how much fantasy you read, but I would suggest you do some more reading before claiming that Rowling is somehow unique in her writing, there are lot worse examples out there.

[Greenwood]

Obviously, I agree with Starflower. Something like the "he who shall not be named" is quite common, not just in fantasy but in many cultures. In some Native-American cultures you don't use the name of someone who has died because you willl disturb their spirit and perhaps draw the spirit's unwelcome attention on yourself (akin to what Starflower said).

If you really want to see an example of stealing from Tolkien check out Terry Brooks "Sword of Shannara" (sp.?)

[Starflower]

yes - the Shannara books are a good example, but also David Eddings' Belgariad features a Gandalf character (Belgarath) and a Frodo ( Garion) trying to recover a lost jewel... the examples are endless, but in the end, unless there is obvious plagiarism - for example a-party-of-nine-going-to-destroy-a-precious-artefact-pursued-by-evil-goblins - type of thing.... there's not much point in pointing fingers

[Ithilin]

Dumbledore means "bumble bee" in some language (Latin, I believe) :D
Since Tolkien's stories are so great and inspiring, it must be easy for "less creative writers" to be influenced by them :p Or perhaps we're just paranoid... :rolleyes:

[Greenwood]

yes - the Shannara books are a good example, ...... the examples are endless, but in the end, unless there is obvious plagiarism - for example a-party-of-nine-going-to-destroy-a-precious-artefact-pursued-by-evil-goblins - type of thing.... there's not much point in pointing fingersThe following is the description of "Sword of Shannara" taken from the Books-A-Million on-line bookstore's web site:

"Living in peaceful Shady Vale, Shea Ohmsford knew little of the troubles that plagued the rest of the world. Then the giant, forbidding Allanon revaled that the supposedly dead Warlock Lord was plotting to destory the world. The sole weapon against this Power of Darkness was the Sword of Shannara, which could only be used by a true heir of Shannara--Shea being the last of the bloodline, upon whom all hope rested. Soon a Skull Bearer, dread minion of Evil, flew into the Vale, seeking to destroy Shea. To save the Vale, Shea fled, drawing the Skull Bearer after him."

The plot seems more than a little familiar. I remember one reviewer when the book came out over twenty years ago wondering why the Tolkien Estate didn't sue. The problem is that Tolkien's American publisher let the copyright on the first edition of LOTR lapse so they couldn't successfully sue. BTW, I believe Brooks was a lawyer before turning to writing. I wonder what is legal specialty was? ;)

[numen]

wow! that really is a rip off!

As for Harry Potter, maybe i am wrong, Ithilin is probaly right I am being paranoid! Its just like starflower said, that what is in the book is common fantasy- i hadn't thought about it that way before!

[Sarah]

Really? thats interesting. Which poem was it and in which book?


From the The Illustrated Encyclopaedia, by David Day



Dumbledors - In the playful Hobbit poem "Errantry", a part tells of a ferocious race of winged insects. They are named Dumbledors, but nothing more is told of their origin and history.

[HLGStrider]

It's mostly just cliche. Tolkien basically made the greatest fantasy work ever and used all the good elements up and anyone who comes after will do very similar stuff.

There was no Tolkien before Tolkien. After Tolkien there were a lot of little Tolkiens because Tolkien started the genre.

I'm sure at one time there was no one writing romance novels and then someone invented the genre. . .

I'm not a huge fan of Harry Potter. They just don't get to me. I find some Tolkienish elements in there, but generally not enough to make them interesting. It might have been a better book if they'd ripped off more Tolkien.

[Ithilin]

...I'm not a huge fan of Harry Potter. They just don't get to me. I find some Tolkienish elements in there, but generally not enough to make them interesting. It might have been a better book if they'd ripped off more Tolkien.

hm...I don't agree. Rowling has a completely different writing style compared to Tolkien. That's what bugs me the most about these Tolkien wannabes ("little Tolkiens" :D ) - they steal the plot and the style.

But since I try to avoid such books, I guess I don't really know what I'm talking about >.<

[joxy]

....name of a creature in a child's poem, then it was never mentioned again.
It's Errantry, which isn't really a child's poem.
You can see it in full in The Road Goes Ever On, a Song Cycle, by M Flanders on D Swann, from poems by Tolkien: Allen & Unwin.
"There was a merry passenger, a messenger, a mariner....
He battled with the Dumbledors (sic), the Hummerhorns, and Honeybees...."

Dumbledore can't be Latin; I guess it's just an English dialect form of "bumblebee".
Can anyone give actual locations for anyone in TLOTR actually saying "he who shall not be named"?

[Ravenna]

Dumbledore, as joxy says, is and english colloquial term for a bumble bee. I'm not sure how widespread its use was, but I'm sure that I've seen the name used in another novel somewhere, although I can't for the life of me recall where.:o

I think many, if not most fantasy writers these days freely acknowledge the debt they owe to Tolkien, but whilst there may be general similarities, most have such a different style that plagiarism does not appear to be an issue. I certainly read Eddings' books with great enjoyment, also the Harry Potter books. If you read fantasy fiction, there are only so many types of character and storyline, and there is bound to be some overlap.
Btw. If you really are looking for a fantasy novel that is very non-Tolkienesque, I recommend the 'Deed of Paksenarrion', a trilogy by Elizabeth Moon. It may have the odd elf but very little other similarity imho. :D

[Sarah]

It's Errantry, which isn't really a child's poem.
You can see it in full in The Road Goes Ever On, a Song Cycle, by M Flanders on D Swann, from poems by Tolkien: Allen & Unwin.
"There was a merry passenger, a messenger, a mariner....
He battled with the Dumbledors (sic), the Hummerhorns, and Honeybees...."

Dumbledore can't be Latin; I guess it's just an English dialect form of "bumblebee".
Can anyone give actual locations for anyone in TLOTR actually saying "he who shall not be named"?

Well, that's what it said in my book. and my book is mostly correct.

[Barliman Butterbur]

...I have read the Harry Potter books(due to my bro's pestering) and well, there are so many simliarites between it and LOTR. I was rather angry.

I'm aware of that too. It's much more evident in the books than in the movies, at least they are blatantly obvious to anyone who knows Tolkien's works.

That said, I enjoy the Potter books and movies very much (the movies more than the books:p), but I think JK should pay the Tolkien estate royalties for all the ideas she lifted wholesale from him.

Lotho

[Eledhwen]

I haven't read much Harry Potter - I got bored halfway through the first book. However, I have read all eight "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever" by Stephen Donaldson, which also has many Tolkienesque threads. Tolkien himself drew on ancient Myths, and borrowed names from them (Meduseld, Balin, Gandalf), and I have no problem with authors using the names, so long as it is obviously not the same character.

I can't help with Dumbledore; I agree that it doesn't sound Latin, though it's root may be. Words change.

[HLGStrider]

The most attrative element to steal from Tolkien is the Rangers, I think. A group of distrusted men, not quite outlaws but almost, living in the woods, mostly, and really the remnents of a great kingdom? Plus the name: Rangers. It just seems so perfect. I admit to stealing this in a lot of my early attempts. I don't think this element would ever fit into Rowling.


Rowling does have an advantage if anyone wants to accuse her of Tolkien stealing. Look at the setting: Modern day England. Mythical Middle Earth.

The very location and time prevents much cross over. It wouldn't be too out of place for Harry to be reading the Lord of the Rings while at school.

Personally, I read the first two Potter books and found them ok, but the third one was so depressing and muddled I didn't feel any desire to go onto the fourth.

[joxy]

....they are blatantly obvious to anyone who knows Tolkien's works.
Not to me! Let's have examples L-P.
I venture the thought that the complete set of HP, however many that will be, will be within respectable reach of TLOTR in terms of quality of writing, imagination, characterisation, and plotting.

Sarah: I'm not disagreeing with you, but what did it say in the book, what book is it, and how do you know it is correct?

[Beleg]

Heck even Magician borrow's something from Tolkien, [the whole Dragon thing] and It is certainly one of the best fantasy books I have ever read.
Perhaps the best bar Silmarillion.

I concour with Joxy about Harry Potter.
As for 'Bumblebee' (http://www.word-detective.com/051600.html), check out the entry 'Bumble, Dumble and Dore Esq.' in the aforegiven link. Even though his preception of Dumbeldore's character working on the logic of the meaning isn't entirely correct [Specially since he hasn't read the books] but he nevertheless provides an intresting answer to a querry.

Perhaps, it was in 'Thomas Hardys' Under the Greenwood tree that you read the name?

The most attrative element to steal from Tolkien is the Rangers, I think. A group of distrusted men, not quite outlaws but almost, living in the woods, mostly, and really the remnents of a great kingdom? Plus the name: Rangers. It just seems so perfect. I admit to stealing this in a lot of my early attempts. I don't think this element would ever fit into Rowling.

Many author's have used units and characters in which the characteristics of rangers can be glimpsed, for example Robert Jordan, sometimes termed as Tolkien's successor [Ridikulus asserion, IMO] character 'Lan' bears a striking resemblence to Aragorn and the Wardens, though pretty different also share something in common with the rangers.
In 'Magician', Raymond E. Fiest employ's the Natalese rangers, a self-dependent group of expert individuals, close to the elves [And Dwarves] and protectors of the Free Cities does remind one of the Dunedain.
But this doesn't mean that these character's or even their characteristics were stolen from Tolkien.

It's mostly just cliche. Tolkien basically made the greatest fantasy work ever and used all the good elements up and anyone who comes after will do very similar stuff.

Tolkien was the first person to put togather the therto scrambled myths, folklores and tales into a coherent, likeable order thus kickstarting the high fantasy genre.
Since then there have been many who have bettered the genre but haven't recieved the compliments that they are entitled too.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Not to me! Let's have examples L-P.
I venture the thought that the complete set of HP, however many that will be, will be within respectable reach of TLOTR in terms of quality of writing, imagination, characterisation, and plotting.

Good God J, you're asking me to do actual research!:p Here's where I stand now:

I have read the first 5 Potter books at least once, the earlier books maybe two or three times. In passing, I have noted things that struck me as being very Tolkienlike: "The Dark Lord" (Voldemort), the creature Dobby (Gollumlike but much less dangerous), a magic talisiman such as the Sorcerer's Stone that needed to be destroyed without its being used (like the One Ring), those guards of Azkiban (I forget their names now) that bear a resemblance to the Nazgul and that suck your soul dry of joy, and shape-shifters (like Beorn) who were so important to HP's life.

And every time I've bumped into one of those things I've said to myself, "Hm — I think she owes that to Tolkien. One of these days when I have absolutely nothing else to do, I might just write down the things that strike me as one-to-one similarities." So far I haven't been motivated.

But now you have a few. The best way to find them if you really want to is to read the stories, or use Google to see if someone else has already done it.

Lotho

[joxy]

....J, you're asking me to do actual research!
Yes, and I appreciate it, even though I have to go against most of them!
Voldemort, if anything, is more of an equivalent to Saruman than to Sauron.
Dobby has nothing to do with Gollum at all, except that I still think he's at least as good in the films as Serkis is in TLOTR!
The Philosopher's Stone goes way back before both Tolkien and Rowling.
The Dementors, of Azkaban; yes, well, I might give you that one, and I actually think they're worse than the Nazgul.
Shape-shifters: again, back in the mists of time, alongside the Stone-that-must-be-destroyed.
Similarities to some extent, certainly, but serial, not parallel.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yes, and I appreciate it, even though I have to go against most of them!
Voldemort, if anything, is more of an equivalent to Saruman than to Sauron.
Dobby has nothing to do with Gollum at all, except that I still think he's at least as good in the films as Serkis is in TLOTR!
The Philosopher's Stone goes way back before both Tolkien and Rowling.
The Dementors, of Azkaban; yes, well, I might give you that one, and I actually think they're worse than the Nazgul.
Shape-shifters: again, back in the mists of time, alongside the Stone-that-must-be-destroyed.
Similarities to some extent, certainly, but serial, not parallel.

For me, it isn't worth getting into serious involvement or discussion. Even though there are similiarities (and I forgot to mention probably the most obvious: Dumbledore/Gandalf), she uses, IMO her material in a far different way. Her characters live in our time, and fairly much reflect many of the values of today's kids. One of the most striking images (for me in the first movie) starts out right away with the medieval-looking Dumbledore and Professor McGonogall standing around under modern street lights having conversation standing next to modern cars, and where Hagrid comes in for a landing via an airborne motorcycle. The whole feel is quite different from Middle-earth!

What amuses me far more is how upset the bible-thumpers have gotten over Rowling's themes of witchcraft and magic used by kids. They fail to see her emphasis on using power for good, and the value of loyalty and friendship (I would say "like Tolkien," but many authors use such themes).

Well J, now you've gone and done it! I'm going to have to start reading the Potter books again, in order to get caught up for the next movie!:p

Lotho

[HLGStrider]

In defense of "Bible Thumpers," though I myself have read the books and don't think they are harmful, they are not books that will morally exhort anyone to moral-Christian-heroic behavior, while Tolkien is. There are a few good elements, but most of them are overshadowed by the more modern elements.

For instance, as you mentioned, both Harry and Voldemort use the same sort of power, just one for good the other for bad, as opposed to two distinct sorts of powers, one good the other bad and corrupting, that you find in the Lord of the Rings.

Both use the same methods. In Potter it is ok to lie if you are doing it for a good cause. Harry does it often. In Tolkien, Faramir will not snare an orc with falsehood.

I don't think these things are bad enough to merit not reading it, but I don't think the book is good enough to merit reading it unless you have read a lot of more interesting things first. In moral lessons the books good and bad elements are about equal.

This is true of most modern books, of course. I wouldn't let my ten-year-old read it, but I would let my thirteen-year-old.

[Telëlambe]

stories arn't just about the actual story and charactars, all superficial. but also themes. the themes (and there are a lot of them) are all fairly obviously similar, companionship, overcoming evil and hardship, dark lords (this one is my favorite, 3 very powerfull mysterious dark lords), wise guides, and love (which i might add the main hero never gets any) in st, hp and lotr.
if you think only of the works of the authors, then yes, tolkien wins, and it is fairly obviouse to see the connection from the other two to tolkien. and the fact that tolkiens work is so much more vast and compete helps too. however. whoever said it was right: tolkien didnt invent hot water, and good themes have evolved over centuaries of storytelling, tolkien's was more popular im my opinion because he combined them, further improved them and exicuted them perfectly and in more depth than previously seen. so any lesser work after is is alwase going to be compaired to tolkiens.

[33Peregrin]

I would not say that JK Rowling "copied" JRR Tolkien, even if she were greatly inspired by many of his ideas. JK Rowling's books are highly inventive and origional, I think, and can be looked at on their own.... even if they do not come near to comparison with Tolkien's works. From what I have read in JK Rowling's biography, she was a very large fan of LOTR and often carried around a battered copy of the book. It was pure chance that the first movies of each set of books opened within a month of each other!

[ingolmo]

I don't think Rowling copied Tolkien. It might have influenced her, but no author who has read Tolkien cannot be influenced by him.
Tolkien's and Rowlings works are great in their own way, and I don't think they should be compared.

[Alatar]

Yes, i don't think that she copied tolkien, though she was influenced by hem, asin arrog.
By the way, i have read the half blood prince, and it is good. Suprising too.

[33Peregrin]

I am only here because I cannot read The Half-Blood Prince, as surprising as that sounds..... This place is to distract me. It is my brother's turn to be reading it, seeing as we bought the book together.... now I am waiting for my chance to get a hold of it again. It is quite excellent so far... I only want to keep going... keep going. I am feeling a bit guilty.... I have't even read my LOTR for the year yet.... and summer is almost over, and here comes my busy school year in a month.

[Hammersmith]

Yes, i don't think that she copied tolkien, though she was influenced by hem, asin arrog.
By the way, i have read the half blood prince, and it is good. Suprising too.
Who dies?
My message wasn't long enough to be accepted. Ho hum.

[AraCelebEarwen]

I shall share the advice of my mother. She already finished book six!

"Don't read six tell you have seven!" :eek:

She only told me a little about it but I never really got into reading any of the other books thus far anyway...

THE HALF BLOOD PRINCE IS....:eek:
:
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The voice is silenced by a stronger force. :D :p

[Alatar]

Sorry, whos dies is unspeakable(and Untypable.)Anyway, it is good, and very supiring.

[e.Blackstar]

When someone (like Tolkien) writes such a HUGE and comprehensive work like LotR, there are bound to be elements that are ripped off/copied/recycled by other writers in the genre. I've found myself falling into the trap every once in a while.

[33Peregrin]

Do you know... when you think about it... imagine another fantasy writer someday who does something worthwhile. It will probably be difficult for them to write something truy new and original without "copying" Harry Potter in some way.

[AraCelebEarwen]

Yes, and someone will find somewhere to post a thread saying how badly it was copied and that it should never have been done... ;)

Really I have yet to read HBP, though my mom thinks I should even if it's just so she can have someone to talk to about it. :D It's driving her crazy to try not to spoil it for me, I want to read it and will soon... but it might take a while. I have a few other things I'm reading right now. :) I have been warned though! It might not be the best of endings! :rolleyes: But that's part of the fun! ;) :D

[Gary Gamgee]

Let's get one thing straight Tolkien wrote the better books.

That said however Rowling's Harry Potter books have been exceptional both in their storytelling and their cultural impact. The Potter books has a huge pull on the now generation, Tolkien I don't think had that. His books have slid in and out of fashion. The past few years they have been in, because of the films, but it was not always so. The Hobbit was a big childrens book. The sequal took a long time, many of the children had grown up somewhat and that was good because it wasn't a childrens book anymore. And even though it was a hit at the time it wasnt until the hippie generation adopted it that LOTR really took hold and became a cult almost (although for such a big seller how can you say cult?). And that was what, ten years or more after it was published?

I realise that that has nothing to do with the storytelling and whether Rowling has ripped Tolkien off or not. Rowling's books are fundementally different to Tolkien's. Harry Potter is set in the here and now, even with the pretence of the magical boarding school, and all that that entails. As much as she doesn't like it it is a soap opera. Will Ron and Hermino get it together? Will Harry and Ginny? Is Snape a barsteward? Who dies in HP7? I sound cynical and I'm not. I love Harry Potter. But I dinney think it will pass the 50 year test. Even though she has sold more books.

ps is anyone ready to discuss HP6? I've got a few theories but I wont say anything until someone says.

[Kristaline]

I agree about Harry Potter not having the longevity factor as Tolkien. They feel dated to me (more in the here and now). I have read all of them with my kids, but they do not inspire me to re-read them unless me and my kids are trying to remember the fine details of something.

I have enjoyed the books for the suspense factor and I, too, have a theory or two about the next book. And I really think that this book was more enjoyable than the last two (despite our "murder").

[Telëlambe]

Something to think about.
When the harry potter generation get a bit older, and they need a simmilar literary work, where do you think they will turn? and once you discover the sheer depth of the whole world and histories of tolkien there is no going back. you will be a fan forever.

[Rosalee LuAnn]

People, lets just take a look at liturature in general.

Before I get into this, however, I would like to assure you all that I love both LOTR and HP alot. Neither is better in my opinion. Both have things I like better in one than the other, both have things I really like and things I don't like quite so much. Niether is better.

So, back to literature. People have been telling stories ever since they could speak. Storytelling is as old as man. There are hundreds of thousands of stories out there. And there are similaritys between all of them. You hear me, all of them.

Obviously, this is stretching it. Some similaritys between particular stories are few and far between. When you narrow it down, however, to a certain genre, the similaritys multiply. LOTR and HP belong to the same genre, fantasy (you could even throw 'adventure' into the genre title as well). Similaritys are bound to be there, and they are.

And, lets face it, LOTR isn't completely original, either. Tolkien himself said he wanted to write an epic. He was copying the basic form and storyline of the 'epic genre' of storys and storytelling. (As said previously in this thread, everything is copied from something else.)

But no, lets all point fingers ad JK, because her series is so enormously successful. Lets all point fingers at JK, because she's written yet another fantasy novel, with many of the basic characteristics of the genre (characters being a major one). Let's all point fingers at JK, because we happen to like a different and older fantasy series (LOTR) more, so she obviously copied it.

Come on, people. (Theose of you who are att acking HP here, that is.)

[Rosalee LuAnn]

I said this in a different HP vs. LOTR thread and I'll say it again.

Before I get into this, however, I would like to assure you all that I love both LOTR and HP. Neither is better in my opinion. Both have things I like better in one than the other, both have things I really like and things I don't like quite so much. Niether is better.

So, people, lets just take a look at liturature in general.
People have been telling stories ever since they could speak. Storytelling is as old as man. There are hundreds of thousands of stories out there. And there are similaritys between all of them. You hear me, all of them. (Yes, I know other people have said this in this thread. Just emphasizing it a bit ;).)

Obviously, this is stretching it. Some similaritys between a certain two stories (chosen an random, say) are few and far between. When you narrow it down, however, to a certain genre, the similaritys multiply. LOTR and HP belong to the same genre, fantasy (you could even throw 'adventure' into the genre title as well, though this fits a bit better with LOTR than HP). Similaritys are bound to be there, and they are. And there are many other series that use the same ideas too. (But, as they don't have the wide success and popularity of the Harry Potters or the Lord of the Rings people don't seem quite so accusatory of them)

And, lets face it, LOTR isn't completely original, either. Tolkien himself said he wanted to write an epic. He was copying the basic form and storyline of the 'epic genre' of storys and storytelling.

But no, lets all point fingers at JK, because her series is so enormously popular. Lets all point fingers at JK, because she's written yet another fantasy novel, with many of the basic characteristics of the genre (a genre that LOTR was the cornerstone of). Let's all point fingers at JK, because we happen to like a different and older fantasy series (LOTR) more, so she obviously copied it. Lets all point fingers at JK, because we're all jealous of her success. (If you cannot sense the heavy sarcasm, I'm being sarcastic :p. And I will AGAIN repeat, I LOVE the LOTR books!)


once you discover the sheer depth of the whole world and histories of tolkien there is no going back. you will be a fan forever.


Oh, really. So once you read LOTR, you have to absolutely love it, is that it? (I will repeat once again, I LOVE the LOTR series!) I have many friends who have read and loved Harry Potter, but when they tried to read LOTR, they found it too detailed and boring, they found the 'depth of the whole world and histories of tolkien' tedious. These friends gave it a good chance and really tried to get into them, I know, because I was cheering them on, trying to get them to read it. However, they did not become 'forever fans.' But, I am still friends with these people ;). Some people just don't like Tolkien. You don't seem to allow for the fact that this 'kind' of person exists.

[Corvis]

Oh man! I just finished the Order of the Phoenix and I thought I was back reading TTT when I was reading about the house elf in the Black House. That elf sounds so much like gollum, the way he walks, the way he talks to himself as if no one can hear him. I swear she copied the character right from Tolkien.

[Narya]

If Rowling ever copied anyone, I'd say it's Neil Gaiman. Not Tolkien. She may have been inspired by the good professor, but her series of books is too different to be a copied version.

Neil Gaiman however wrote a series of books for DC comic called THE BOOKS OF MAGIC.

Here's a picture of the book and tell me who the main character looks like:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/sagittastar/bom1.jpg

Many people have noticed similarities between the title character Timothy Hunter — a bespectacled English teenager with family troubles who has a magical owl as a pet — and the later and more famous Harry Potter, but Neil Gaiman has been quoted as saying that while there are similarities between the two they are largely superficial and most likely reflect the fact that both draw on common archetypes.

The original mini series was published long before the Harry Potter series.

You judge.