Death March? I just don't buy this one...

[pgt]

As a kid when I read about the Orcs snagging Pip and Merry and runnng back to Isengard/Fangorn followed by Aragorn and Co I distinctly recall wrinkling my nose and thinking that was a bit far fetched and moved on and continued enjoying the story.

On a recent rescan just prior to the movie I was again hung up on the Olympic performance of the Orcs et al.

3/26 Leave Parth Galen in late afternoon

did NOT sleep that night

3/27 Reach Cliff in morning

Find broach on 3/27 mid-morning

Slept that night (~8 hours)

3/28 continued (24 leagues mentioned)

Slept that night (~8 hours)

3/29 Continued (8+15 leagues estimated)

3/29 night, reached edge of line of downs

Slept that night (~8 hours)

3/30 traveled (possibly 13 leagues), awaited Riders (10 leagues short of forest.

A total of ~96 hours minus 24 hours rest yields 72 hours travel time.

Using a ruler I measured the distance from Rauros (the 's') to to the bottom of the 'o' in Fangorn on my little map at the beginnign of my paperback. That measured about 18mm.

According to the map scale that equates to approximately 185 miles as the crow flies.

46 miles average a day for 4 days?
96 hours aggregate for 185 miles?
72 hours actual running/jogging/walking for 185 miles?

Now am I supposed to believe that Aragorn and Co averaged over 46 miles a day for 4 straight days?

The orcs actually widened their lead and beat this record substantially.

Legolas, sure. But a man, a dwarf and a bunch of Orcs, (yes, some of which were Uruk Hai). Sure the Orcs have that kick-a%#$@ booze and maybe Aragorn and Co can be high on Lembas but the entire trek is well into Olympic record proportions and beyond.

Sure I suspend belief and enjoy the magic etc. but this one struck me as poor math on the part of the author. IMHO 1) Between the crude map and 2) a need to meet an increasingly fast timeline for the entire storyline and 3) a need to land the hobbits in Fangorn, something had to give. What gave (IMHO) was a convenient moving of pieces on the board that defied physical endurance and math and wasn't explained so that everthing else fit and came together.

Just my opinion that this was a fluke in an otherwise awesome and complex storyline. It also seems to dramatically shrink ME to be small if not puny when by all other accounts I felt it be vast and continental in nature.

I know the map is crude but it couldn't be THAT far off. Leagues are somewhat mentioned in the text but: they are incomplete references, I don't know off hand how to convert to miles, they wouldn't add up to the scale on the map anyway I suspect.

Comments? Was this a convient plot fluke or am I missing something.

[Beorn]

You must remember that normal me participate in the Olympics and normal men aren't trying to save lives in the Olympics...

The Uruk-hai were bred to be Super Orcs so that they could walk in sunlight, and stuff. Orcs were made from tortured elves, and elves generally went on a long time and didn't tire easily. Sarumen probably kept inbreeding the most tireless orcs.

Legolas was an elf, so that eliminates the need to explain. Gimli was a dwarf, and they are stout, and don't tire easily. Now, I'm not sure how true the following is, but I'm only speculating: Since Aragorn was of Numenore, he might've had a longer endurance...or maybe his long legs allowed him to walk fast.

Another thing, as I mentioned above, was that in the Olympics men don't compete for other's lives (well, not in today's Olympics....maybe in Greece, but I dunno). So, Aragorn had some Adreneline (sp?) running through him, and Legolas and Gimli had probably their race's equivalent.

One last thing: 46 mi / 24 hrs is about 2 mph....as with all the other speeds....that's not all that fast...

[pgt]

Saving a life that produces an adrenaline response is very very short lived. We're talking minutes, not days. That one doesn't fly for me.

As to Legolas I already gave him a free pass, my comments were to the Orcs, man and dwarf.

As to your arguments for Gimli: very short legs. no good for long distance travel. He is ALWAYS the first to want/need rest of the 3 companions too.

As to 46 miles a day for 4 days (arguably more miles I was rounding downards to be easy). Ever done a forced march in the Marine Corp? Just try covering 40 miles in one day let alone 4 days with a very light pack, young, in shape, modern training and gear (read shoes). Then let's see you consider 2.5mph paltry over a span of 4 days! Paltry is ain't!

As to the Orcs being Elvish I don't buy it. We'll agree to disagree on this point as it's off topic. THere are some very well written essays on the web that don't buy it either and I found their logic the better. Just MO.

At any rate the Orcs regardless of their origins outpaced the Numenorean and the Dwarf handily but whether they outpaced the Elf is a moot point. Bottom line is that they do hold the record for ME endurance runs or iron man competition or whatever. How is that equipped with such physical attributes, they are so easily dispatched in combat on a 1:1 basis or for that matter 1:10 or 1:20 or whatever? That just doesn't compute in my book.

Actually the exercise of putting together my original post crystalized in my mind that this was indeed a fluke. I almost didn't bother to post it but if I missed a biggee in my logic figured someone would let me know and convince me otherwise. Can anyone convince me this was NOT a fluke in the logic of the author?

[Obbit Trifill]

well-thought out and deeply researched question, pgt.

I agree, the distance covered in the amount of time is suspect, unless.

Was most of it downhill?

If so, that could add to distance covered per day, especially if the terrain was covered with hard packed snow or fields of smooth ice which, when gravity is taken into account, would make the journey even faster.

[Beorn]

Originally posted by pgt
As to the Orcs being Elvish I don't buy it. We'll agree to disagree on this point as it's off topic. THere are some very well written essays on the web that don't buy it either and I found their logic the better. Just MO.

Orcs not Elvish? I will not agree to disaggree!

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/o/orcs.html

Grond, Cian, Tel, Kem...Do any of you guys have the exact quote-The Sil....

How is that equipped with such physical attributes, they are so easily dispatched in combat on a 1:1 basis or for that matter 1:10 or 1:20 or whatever? That just doesn't compute in my book. I'm not sure what you mean, but if you mean how did Saruman get so many Orcs w/ these attributes, it's the same as getting a Golden Retriever. All you need to do is keep breeding the one with the selected trait.


Oh, I don't think JRRT ever said anything 'bout snow, or ice, especially in the end of March...

[Thorin]

Just adding to what Mike B said,

Keep in mind the three who you are speaking about. Eomer was blown away like you were that they could travel such a distance. So it was not a normal thing, nor a normally acceptable thing. So you can eliminate any miscalculation on Tolkien's part.

Mike said the rest...

[ReadWryt]

Gimli would have been taking a good many more steps then the others!

I think that, should the math in the post that started this thread be accurate, what we witness is a simple error on the part of Tolkien in dealing with his own geography. I was reminded, while reading Mike's post, of the types of convoluted rationalizations that the folks attempting to defend the Movie in the face of my constant quotes from both Tolkien and Jackson.

(No offence Mike, I know that it is not your intent. It was not so much the quality or accuracy of the post as the general feeling it left me with)

[Ancalagon]

I like this question soo much that I am going to refrain from answering (cause it's just too hard) and partake of the 'Orcs Brew' instead, run around for a while and then fall over from exhaustion.

Phhhewww. thats just like poppas moonshine!

[curious_nomad]

Actually it would be 46 mi. divided by 16 hours(sleep for 8 hours) which turns out to be less than 3 mph. That's a relatively slow walk and slow jog. Anyone with a treadmill can attest. Keeping that pace would be easy even for a dwarf. Anyways, they did have lembas and did have adrenaline rushing through them. It's entirely possible. Just think of Phiddipides(sp) the marathon guy. 26.2 miles straight without a break. Dude!

[SarumansTreason]

You may not buy it, but the Riders of Rohan said there would be songs about their chase because it was so speedy! If there are songs, that means it certainly is a great feat indeed!

[pgt]

Obbit,
It wasn't downhill per se - it was broken terrain and later rolling grasslands. They were on the east bank of the Ent heading northwards which I would purely calculate as a slight increase in altitude in that direction. The 1st day and a half was very rough afterwards it was more open rangeland with flowing hills if memory serves.

Mike B,
I meant by the 1:10 or 1:20 as being somewhat tongue in cheek, it seemed like warriors such as Aragorn and Co slew orcs in such ratios in physical combat. I have a background in Track and Field and these orcs smoked them in distance/endurance. Lousy in physical combat but awesome in athletic ability? That doesn't add up in my book.

Thorin,
That is a very good point about Eomer's surprise. Finally someone adds something new here worthwhile to ponder. Here I suggest the author is 'admitting' 'yeah they went far & fast'. I still stand by with - they went too far too fast. When 'magic' is introduced belief is suspended by the reader. No magical explanation and the laws of physics apply. In this case the author provided no magical explanation than a brief acknowledgement of the distance (perhaps w/ a wink!?) and defied conventional physics. Or at least pushed them to their limits. Thanks Thorin!

Readwryt,
The math is accurate insofar as my ruler is accurate. If I really wanted to push accuracy I would have to push the #s upwards as to the miles (closer to 200 miles?). I deliberately erred downwards to try and make the distance/time more believable. Still didn't quite work out. The dates are straight from the text. There may be better examples of maps than my aging paperback.

Also I didn't bother with the orc traveling calculations. Those were actually faster and farther. They went all the way to the forest edges and moved quicker w/ less rest and a few got to carry extra 100 lb (Hobbit) packs that were swapped off.

Ancalagon,
I bet that stuff would be good for a long day of cross country skiing and snow camping!

Curious Nomad,
Please, please please! treadmills are NOT the same as actual movement of the body relative to the ground! If you did all your training for a 10K on a treadmill exclusively you'd be in for a rude awakening when you actually ran the 10K for real the first time.

...and the marathon dude promptly expired - dude!

Since I had hoped for more new or unique material to be introduced to this discussion I'll throw in a little food for thought of my own:
Has anybody here actually done a forced march in the military for just a day? A modern OCS or ROTC course would teach statistically something along the lines of 50 miles MAXIMUM in a single day (only few experience anything close to that even in basic training in the US military). That would include a solid 10%+ attrition rate (4 days, 40% attrition!). The military will tell you the biggest problem here folks is feet. 50 miles w/ 10% attrition presumes modern, very well fit, footwear and conditioned soldiers. Over a period of 4 days this becomes much more speculative.

If you are the type of person that will go to great lengths to come up with elaborate explanations for any aspect of the story, this thread will likely not change you mind, no more than mine. IMHO this incredibly complex and rich story was created by a human and, few though they may be, has flaws. This is but a minor flaw. Really I'd prefer to call it a "stretch" than a flaw.

---

Off topic note to Mike: Check out tolkien.cro.net/orcs/origin.html. I found this to be a very balanced and objectively written essay on the topic of Orc origins. I cannot improve upon it and suggest it for further reading. There is no conclusive answer IMHO and I choose to believe they are NOT Elvish. THen again, maybe you're right, thus making Orcs immortal and get to go to the halls of Mandos ;-)

[ReadWryt]

I have a background in Track and Field and these orcs smoked them in distance/endurance. Lousy in physical combat but awesome in athletic ability? That doesn't add up in my book.

That is because "your book" quite obviously fails to recognise the difference between Stamina and Skill, between Endourance and Tactical Ability...

[stratosphere]

1) average foot speed of a human over normal/ruff ground is 2 miles an hour at a steady walk..this can be kept for many hours..normal max to this is 20 hours then 8 hours rest . this can go on for some days before muscle waste begins due to acid build-up.

2) a fit man/women (though men appear to be better at this no offence meant ) can keep a fast jog up for 12 hours before burn kicks in. this would be about 4 miles an hour..

3) then there is what is called scouts pace. this is you run/fast jog for 50-100 paces and then walk 50-100 paces this can go on for day after day for very long periods depending on the fitness of those doing it. not sure of the speed of this but you really do cover ground at an amazing rate (from my own experience of needing to shift off mountains and back to civilisation a.s.a.p , and this was on what would be classed as broken to very ruff ground)

so if you are saying 185 miles then :-

1) would take a min of 92/93 hours with no rest

2)would take 46/47 hours no rest

3)as I said I do not know the speed of this but would expect it to be about the same as 2) but needing less rest.

note on 3) this was used allot in the napleonic wars by British scout( thus its name) and was shown to be the fastest why of moving small groups of lightly burdened men across ruff and open terrain , these men could eat drink on the move and still be in a state to fight at the end of there march.
most time on one forced march was 2.5 days solid scouts pace, no sleep.( do not know how accurate this is as things in history can get a bit embellished)

on forced marching there is many examples of these through history of troops marching there asses off over great distances that at first look would seem super human..

[Bill the Pony]

In the Netherlands there is an event called de vierdaagse (something like the four day march) where people FOR FUN walk 50 km a day for four days in a row. Admittedly, that's less than 75 or so km (46 miles). But remember those people in the Netherlands only get a medal at the end, and that's enough for them. For Aragorn et al, there are the lives of their friends at stake to keep them going. It's still an impressive walk, but it doesn't sound completely impossible to me.

[pgt]

ReadWryt,

So am I to infer that obviosly ReadWryt's BOOK says that someone CAN have superior physical ability to move long distances with iron shoes quickly but be so inept in physical combat that even 10:1 or 20:1 odds seem to get whipped.

ReadWryt blabbered: "'your book' quite obviously fails to recognise the difference between ...". Now let me get this straight, you state that I obviously don't know the definition of a couple of basic words? That is certainly one of the more obvious ways to troll for a flame war. And you call yourself a MODERATOR? May I suggest you look up the words "moderate" and "moderator". A good moderator can troll and create strife on a forum in more subtle ways as to not be directly attributed to him or her. I'd say you need some practice 'cause I just painted your skin like the broad side of a barn.

In order to correct what ReadWryt inaccurately attributed to me, Here's what "My book" REALLY says:
Running is mostly physical ability, endurance stamina, training or whatever.
Physical combat via heavy broadsword play or axe is a healthy mix of skill and physical ability. It may or may not be accurate but THAT's what my book says NOT what my good buddy ReadWryt mis-spoke.

I expected lively debate and additional data and am open to reason and logical arguments (see below where I amend my views at least somewhat). Regretfully, I'm more than a little disappointed that someone calling themselves "moderator" would troll like this.

In fact considering the literary demands the book places on the reader, I expect most enthusiastic readers to be of exemplary intelligence. I see no need in a forum like this to state that someone "obviously" doesn't understand fundamental differences in the semantics of common words when quite contrarily we all do.

===

Stratosphere,
That is a most excellent post and the kind of info I was looking for to add to this thread. I've amended my original complete disbelief at what I originally considered a 'flaw' to now consider it more of just a notable 'stretch of my imagination'. As to the specifics of your #s the only thing to keep in mind might be the statistical attrition rate in such distances. But really that probably doesn't need to be applied here in our ME model. As I said before, I'm a 'little' more satisfied with the physical situation that originally challenged my belief at the beginning of the thread though I don't completely embrace it or believe it.

Also keep in mind that I rounded the 185 mile figure downards. Also that is a straight as crows fly calculation. They wandered quite a bit the first day and a half getting out of the mountains and hills. There was no direct route over the ridge. Secondly there was a course change somewhere around the ent if memory serves. They went NW then N or something like that. That only makes that 185 mile distance an assuredly low figure.

People run marathons in the US and only get a TShirt or ribbon and some Gatorade. Registration fees are often more than the actual cost of the shirt, ribbon etc.

As to the mental state of rescuing friends (they had largely given up hope by the second day if you read the text - even the optimistic Legolas states such) as a 'superior motivational factor' that I keep seeing repeated, while it is certainly a factor I disagree that it is superior to other factors that can be experienced today by any of us. I would say that the mental condition of a USMC recruit fresh out of basic as comparable and in a mental state so as to believe nothing is impossible.

My thanks to all esp. Thorin and Stratosphere.

[Pops]

Originally posted by pgt

ReadWryt blabbered: "'your book' quite obviously fails to recognise the difference between ...". Now let me get this straight, you state that I obviously don't know the definition of a couple of basic words? That is certainly one of the more obvious ways to troll for a flame war. And you call yourself a MODERATOR? May I suggest you look up the words "moderate" and "moderator". A good moderator can troll and create strife on a forum in more subtle ways as to not be directly attributed to him or her. I'd say you need some practice 'cause I just painted your skin like the broad side of a barn.

In order to correct what ReadWryt inaccurately attributed to me, Here's what "My book" REALLY says:
Running is mostly physical ability, endurance stamina, training or whatever.
Physical combat via heavy broadsword play or axe is a healthy mix of skill and physical ability. It may or may not be accurate but THAT's what my book says NOT what my good buddy ReadWryt mis-spoke.

I expected lively debate and additional data and am open to reason and logical arguments (see below where I amend my views at least somewhat). Regretfully, I'm more than a little disappointed that someone calling themselves "moderator" would troll like this.

In fact considering the literary demands the book places on the reader, I expect most enthusiastic readers to be of exemplary intelligence. I see no need in a forum like this to state that someone "obviously" doesn't understand fundamental differences in the semantics of common words when quite contrarily we all do.


JEEEEZUS, shut the hell up, already. You expected a 'lively debate and addition data' and 'logical arguments' about how fast a group of three beings can run in a friggin BOOK?!? Are you the guy at the movies that screams "he can't have that many bullets" or "that can't be done" in the action flicks?

It's a BOOK. In fact, it's a book created by the imagination of a single man. A reality he created all his own then decided to share with us. Perhaps in his world, humans, elves and dwarves can travel at a faster pace than we can in our reality. Perhaps not, but they ARE three great warriors with a sense of urgency. Obviously with more skill and endurance than a 'normal' being.

And what's this you say that Gimli not being good for long-distance travel? Dwarves are known for their endurance. And several times Gimli mentioned that he would not be outdone by an elf when it came to endurance.

[ReadWryt]

ReadWryt,

So am I to infer that obviosly ReadWryt's BOOK says that someone CAN have superior physical ability to move long distances with iron shoes quickly but be so inept in physical combat that even 10:1 or 20:1 odds seem to get whipped.

ReadWryt blabbered: "'your book' quite obviously fails to recognise the difference between ...". Now let me get this straight, you state that I obviously don't know the definition of a couple of basic words? That is certainly one of the more obvious ways to troll for a flame war. And you call yourself a MODERATOR? May I suggest you look up the words "moderate" and "moderator". A good moderator can troll and create strife on a forum in more subtle ways as to not be directly attributed to him or her. I'd say you need some practice 'cause I just painted your skin like the broad side of a barn.

In order to correct what ReadWryt inaccurately attributed to me, Here's what "My book" REALLY says:
Running is mostly physical ability, endurance stamina, training or whatever.
Physical combat via heavy broadsword play or axe is a healthy mix of skill and physical ability. It may or may not be accurate but THAT's what my book says NOT what my good buddy ReadWryt mis-spoke.

I expected lively debate and additional data and am open to reason and logical arguments (see below where I amend my views at least somewhat). Regretfully, I'm more than a little disappointed that someone calling themselves "moderator" would troll like this.

In fact considering the literary demands the book places on the reader, I expect most enthusiastic readers to be of exemplary intelligence. I see no need in a forum like this to state that someone "obviously" doesn't understand fundamental differences in the semantics of common words when quite contrarily we all do.


...could someone show me where I was "Trolling" there? I seem to have missed something. All I did was point out that someone presumed in their post that the same physical demands that dictate good marching were somehow indicative of their fighting skills. I may not have a background in track and field but I spent 4 years in Marching Band and I can tell you that just because I could march 7 miles in 3 to 5 glide step it did little or nothing for my skills in Foil and Epee.

I suppose though that you are right. I have dissapointed you somehow and have not lived up to what you expected, and others are posting more to your liking. I should be more like them...just for you:D

[pgt]

ReadWryt innocently asks "...could someone show me where I was "Trolling" there? I seem to have missed something."

But didn't he previously sputter: "'your [PGT's] book' quite obviously fails to recognise the difference between stamina and skill ...".

Now we all know the difference between these words. Yet, Readwryt must insist that I obviously don't. The point of this was to elicit a response from moi. Perhaps you are not disappointed ReadWryt as you got what you wanted.

Followed promptly by the pointless analogy about marching and epees. Here Readwryt chooses wisely an analogy whereby a form of combat is used (epee) that is more heavily skewed towards skill compared to the basic task of marching 7 miles. It's interesting he chose not to make an analogy that included the usage of a heavy blunt weapons used in swings that is somewhat balanced in a need for both physical strenght and skill. Or are we to believe that flipping an epee is as easy as the heavy weapons in LOTR? Nice try - now how about an analogy w/ some 'weight' behind it?

Pops blasts: "JEEEEZUS, shut the hell up, already. "

My my wake up on the wrong side of the bed did we?
Where would you get the idea Dwarves aren't up to endurance. You may wish to review the books on the subject of Dwarves and even go as far back as the Hobbit. Endurance is probably one of their more renowned attributes. 185+ miles - well anybody can do it given enough time - but there's the speed or time issue. I wonder if you read this thread before posting? You're rehashing old ground we've already covered.

While Gimli wouldn't allow himself to be outdone by an elf, it is clear he is working hard to keep up and crashes every night. Legolas is held back by the other 2 and doesn't appear to sleep at night when the others crash seemingly in exhaustion. You did read this chapter didn't you?

[Ciryaher]

Actually, dwarfs are a lot like orcs when it comes to endurance. They can run far under great burdens, relatively quickly.

Also note that maps drawn by hand are not entirely accurate, and what might seem to be a certain distance actually might be quite less (or greater, for that matter).

Just because YOU don't believe in it, doesn't mean it didn't happen; YOUR book be damned.

[Pops]

Originally posted by pgt
Pops blasts: "JEEEEZUS, shut the hell up, already. "

My my wake up on the wrong side of the bed did we?

I am not the one berating moderators because they do not agree with me.

Where would you get the idea Dwarves aren't up to endurance.

Did you read my post? To clarify for the blind:

Originally posted by me:

"Dwarves are known for their endurance."

Insert quarter...try again

You may wish to review the books on the subject of Dwarves and even go as far back as the Hobbit. Endurance is probably one of their more renowned attributes. 185+ miles - well anybody can do it given enough time - but there's the speed or time issue. I wonder if you read this thread before posting? You're rehashing old ground we've already covered.

Based on my last comment, I don't hink I'm the one in need of reading this thread before posting

While Gimli wouldn't allow himself to be outdone by an elf, it is clear he is working hard to keep up and crashes every night. Legolas is held back by the other 2 and doesn't appear to sleep at night when the others crash seemingly in exhaustion. You did read this chapter didn't you?

Ahhh, yes...the always effective 'if-my-argument-gets-blown-to-hell-attack-those-who-don't-agree-with-me syndrome.

[ReadWryt]

Allright, I concede. It was wrong of me to disagree and claim that stomping around the countryside with heavy packs does not equate to keeping your ballance, swinging heavy objects and dodging blows. Why, I swing my arms in large arcs and make pointed thrusting motions all the time when I march! It's reasonable to believe that, were one experienced at Marching great distances in short amounts of time, fortified by either Orc Hootch or Lembas, that were one to do it long enough they would, by default, develop the upper arm strength and ballance needed to hold their own in combat, as well as have the reaction time needed to parry assaults from an assailant. Goes without reason...

Anyone here know how far Patton marched his troops in battle in the 48 hours it took him to reach Bastone in time to join the Battle of the Bulge?

[Grond]

PGT Okay. First, I don't believe that the author has ever said that orcs were made from elves. What he said was that they were made in mockery of elves. I seem to recall somewhere in the Letters of Tolkien where he addresses the issue and never comes to a conlcusive answer but was leaning towards their stock as being that of man, made "in mockey of elves". This, meaning their features would appear more like distorted elf than that of distorted man. Cian can help me out here as I believe the original post was made by him in another thread on the subject.

Secondly, what Army are you talking of not being able to make 20-30 miles a day. Basic training requires 20 mile jogs with 100 pound packs. They do that in 5 to 6 hours and then have another 10-12 hours of training after that. Also, the terrain from Amon Hen to Fanghorn was very flat and they were able to travel "as the crow flies". It is so, check your book. It was a great feat of endurance and speed as the author states through his character Eomer. The three runners include the most perfect speciman of Numenorean stock in many generations, a tireless elf and a tireless dwarf who will not be shown up by said elf.

It seems unreasonable that they could do it. No doubt. It seems unreasonable to me that a person can pole-vault 19+ feet. It seems unreasonable to me that a person can broad jump 29+ feel. It seems unreasonable to me that a person can run the 100 meter dash in less than 10 seconds. Guess what? People can do it even though it seems unreasonable to us to expect anyone ever to be able to do it. We must make a "leap of faith" that the author is not a blithering idiot.

It is ironic that the only time we would ever second guess the author of a great book like TLotR is when his book has been rendered to a film media and someone is trying to justify changes made by the screenwriter, director, et. al. Up to that point, we just enjoy the book and don't care if there is a logic slip up here or there.

But that's just the way I see it, and I could be wrong.

[theGrenadier]

It always amazes me when I run across a post which puts across a purely pragmatic question, based on commonly accepted, 'real-world' physics.

Just let go and enjoy it. A person questioning the average land speed of heros, but never doubting the magic nature of the world they occupy is what doesn't make sense to me.

So, on a purely logical basis, consider that these are travelers before cars, and their 'skill' at the long march would be far superior to a person from our world. Further, remove air pollution, urban congestion, and modern diet and you'd have some superbly healthy people who would be more than likely able to maintain quite a pace over a span of a few days.

Now add in magic, unstated skills, and the whimmsy of the author and the characters can do anything. And I don't think there is any template, outside JRR's own head, by which we could speculate on the performance of orcs. Maybe they're like ants. Produce rapidly, single-minded, hugely-strong and highly expendable. The Red Army proved in WW2 that numbers are everything when losses don't count. A 1:10 or 1:20 loss ratio matters little when there are another 100 behind them to take their places.

[Ståle]

pgt, get that stick out of your arse.

We are talking about a world of wizardry and sorcery. There are paralel dimensions here. Immortal beeings. Gods.

And you begin to ***** about how fast people can run? Honestly.

[zoulou]

pgt,
I think you are missing quite a big point. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are not ordinary men. They are not marine footsoldiers on a forced march. They are heroes. The incredible feet we are talking about is supposed to be incredible. Tolkien did not ever just throw anything into his work, he knew what he was writing about. Their deathmarch showed us how great the three characters are. Eomer even gave an in book commentary on how incredible it was. They did run 46 miles a day for four days, enough said. How did they do it? Who cares? They are heroes of middle earth; a place where people are used to walking and excercise. Ordinary free folk are much fitter than we are in general and we are talking about Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli: HEROES.

As for the orcs, lets put it this way: if you gave the worlds best long distance runners swords and put them up against skilled swordfighters, they would get their arses kicked. But that is not to say that the swordfighters can run better.

[Snaga]

So how does Gandalfs trip on Shadowfax from Rohan to Bree after he escapes from Isengard stack up?

Set out on 23/9 and gets to Bagshot Row in the Shire on 29/9, a journey of perhaps 700 - 800 miles in 6 days - or more than 100 miles a day. Anyone heard of a horse managing that before? Its not in the book but I expect there were some jumps along the way, but I'm not sure about dressage!

[Ancalagon]

And you call yourself a MODERATOR? May I suggest you look up the words "moderate" and "moderator".

Deja-Vu? Oh I laughed when I read this RW. I remember a 'certain member' being so impudent and uttering such rebukes way back when.

:)

[ReadWryt]

Anc,

*Gasp* No! Not HERE!! I trust it was nobody WE know...:p

Now I reveal unto you the answer to the Patton Question...

While under attack from the Germans, General Patton marched..yes, most of his troops were on foot, 100 miles in just a hair over 48 hours on his way to the "The Battle of the Bulge". These were not unopposed travelers eating Waybread of excelent sustenant value, these were American G.I.s hauling arms, food, supplies and equipment while fighting for their lives against a savage and well provisioned enemy.

[theGrenadier]

In the hope of putting the "Patton Question" into perspective;

In the bitter cold,(it was only three days before Christmas), Patton ordered the US III Corps,three Divisions,the 26th, the 80th and 4th Armored, to regroup, resupply, turn ninety degrees, launch a coordinated attack against elements of six German divisions,comprised of some of the best German units and Panther tanks, and relieve Bastogne. That's roughly 15,000 men moving over twenty miles of deep snow under extreme fighting with little to eat but their boots.

Not to mention the poor bastards surrounded in Bastogne.

People will suprise you when properly motivated.

[pgt]

Pops,
Did somebody "berate" somebody?
"Ahhh, yes...the always effective 'if-my-argument-gets-blown-to-hell-attack-those-who-don't-agree-with-me syndrome." I could not have said it better myself - says the blind man to the deaf Pops.

Grond,
thanks for your clarification on Orcs. When/where did I say an army couldn't move 20 or 30 miles a day??? Since I don't believe I ever said that (and if I did it was a mistake) I really can't respond to it. You're SURE of the 20 mile jogs w/ packs is a req. USArmy? Current Standard for ALL Recruits? I recall a single 17+ mile run. But I don't recall multiple 20 mile runs followed by an additional 1/2 days of training. That's from the Corp in the 60s which is obviously not the end-all of training standards. Obviously everyones mileage will vary somewhat on this subject based on branch and time of service.

The text clearly specifies the ground was quite broken and they even debated what route to take down through the ridge. They ended up choosing to follow the Orcs path. Once on the flats there was definately a course change towards the end of the trek (3rd day?).

I never included Legolas in my original premise and have modifed my position somewhat based on this thread.

theGrenadier, stale and zoulou,
I dealt with the point you brought up earlier when I mentioned 'suspended belief'. In fact in general I already acquiesed to much of what you posted but if you insist upon whipping a dead horse by all means...

I was wondering why someone hadn't tried the long distance runner scenario yet. My point was regarding someone who had NOT trained for such a trek but still completed it as being an indicator of their general physical or athletic abilities which in turn would indicate at least pretty decent physical combat abilities especially with the heavier weaponry of this time/place. Making anlogies to epees and skinny long distance runners takes anothing away from what is a reasonable premise.

Ah ReadWryt, the revisionist historian. You query us with your pointless 'trick' question and get so anxious for an answer, must answer for us ignorant ones. But gee you fail to mention that the mechanized elements going up the middle corridor achieved your timetable. They STARTED arriving in 48 hours but didn't ALL arrive at that instant. Far from it. And guess what the biggest complaint was regarding the infantry? It wouldn't be the cold they suffered riding in open trucks would it? Now riddle me this: What have you proven this pointless tact?

As I said earlier, I ammended my original premise somewhat. The horse is dead, shall you continue the whipping?

[ReadWryt]

Revisionist though you may accuse, I have the memories and accounts of the 87th Infantry as they left Bennistroff, France (December 23) to move on to Rheims (December 25) to join Patton's Third Army for the 100-mile trip to Belgium. These were Anti-Tank guys and weren't riding in any stinking trucks. You may have read some accounts of the Field Artilery guys *****ing about the cold ride, but hey, you have to move big guns somehow, right?

[pgt]

...and your point being...?

[Grond]

Originally posted by pgt
...and your point being...? Originally posted by ReadWryt
...These were Anti-Tank guys and weren't riding in any stinking trucks...There's your point pgt. You seemed to say in a previous post that all road in trucks. RW just responded to your assertion and that was the point. Are we not reading the posts?

[pgt]

If I seemed to say that I should have been more clear. Contrary to ReadWryt's revisionist history, III elements that arrived within a couple days were by far those that were mechanized or had access to rides. Obviously an entire Corp is not 100% mechanized and you'll have those that must traverse partly or (in some cases) wholly by foot. While I am no expert on WWII history and certainly not at the divisional level that ReadWryt creatively purports to be, it was common during this event for infantry divisions (such as ReadWryt's?) to be 'attached' to a tank or other armored division and many 'hitched' rides for many parts of the distance here there or wherever they could. Obviously I should have been much clearer so not to appear that I generalized the entirety of the III Corp was riding in trucks. But those that appeared the very first at Bastogne most assuredly did. It was also common that many of the infantry divisions were assigned the task of plugging some defensive holes here and there along the tenous lines created between Pattons original position and Bastogne. I appreciate that ReadWryts has toned down and backed off from his earlier post on III Corp.

Point? I was thinking a little broader actually than the exagerations of a WWII maneuver. Perhaps the point of the second half of this thread is to continuously deride me as "obviously" "blind" or whatever simply because I post a premise that is not agreeable or acceptable to the moderate powers that be on this forum, Well then I get it! - I guess the point is spot on!

I wish to be clear to any on this forum that bother to read this thread that the 1st half of this thread was very informative to me personally and well worthwhile as it certainly gave me pause to amend my premise somewhat. I particularly appreciated the Eomer quote, the history notes and the math people contributed.

While I'm by no means proud of the second half of this (ahem) thread, I find it interesting that some must dog this issue as if deriding me sufficiently will beat me into submitting to their way of thinking.

Here's the dead horse: I still stand by the time/distance as being a very imaginative and somewhat unrealistic stretch by the author in the case of the Orcs/Man/Dwarf. I also consider it unrealistic in that the Orcs were more than a healthy match v. men et al in moving this distance yet quite poor in battle w/ the same foes. I don't see this as A) illogical nor B) taking away from mine or anyone elses enjoyment of the story. When I'm not reading/enjoying the story I enjoy analyzing it. Hmmm it isn't coming around - shall we whip it again?

I'm beginning to learn now that on this forum, to some of the powers that be, to make an original suggestion that Tolkein would be capable of even the slightest miscalculation is sacriledge. That will likely unleash a torrent of intolerance to the mere pained presence of the thread.

[aragil]

One more thing that I thought might add to the post:
In appendix, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen it is mentioned that after 30+ years in the wilderness he 'became at last the most hardy of living Men'. With this sort of description I think that it would be fair to compare Aragorn with an olympic athlete. In defense of your post, on my wall-map of Middle-Earth, which is ~2' by 3' (easy to measure distances) the distance from Rauros to Fangorn is 290 miles as the crow flies. Of course, this is a map from the Middle-Earth Role Playing game of the late 1980's, and probably shouldn't be taken as primary material (hasn't anybody converted leagues to miles yet?).

[Obbit Trifill]

Minus a few replies, this thread is one of the best on the entire website and it deserves a 5 star rating, for the questions asked, for the answers given, for the point and counter points to the original questions--except for a few replies which really only distracted momentarily from the guts of the terrific thread-starting, thought-provoking post by pgt.

(When I went to see the movie last night, I mentioned this post to some people standing in line and it was discussed until the line broke up when we were allowed to enter the theatre. If that is not an endorsement for 5 stars, I don't know what is.)

[Wizdon]

I agree that it was possible for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimlie to achieve that distance in four days.

There is no debate about Legolas, being infinitatly fit (or something like that).

Gimlie: In the hobbit it states that an army of Dwarves once ran all day and all night and half the next day (I'm not sure about the half-day at the end, correct me if I'm wrong, though it has little influence upon the arguement) to reach a battle and fought immediatly. Also, Gimlie says that he will not be shown up by an Elf, his statement giving him more motivation (Gimlie is very headstrong & stubborn).

Aragorn was a ranger for all his life, and I assume of an incredibly high fitness.



As for the 1:10 ratio against orcs: In most battles that occured, there were seldom orc-archers. Legolas killed many, many orcs simply because he was a near perfect archer and picked out his targets well. There was nothing to take Legolas down.

Aragorn was human, therefor would have certainly had a large amount of adreneline during the battles. Add to that he may have been the best fighter of the entire human race and you have one deadly mix.

I don't recall Gimlie being as effective in the battles as either Aragorn or Legolas, but still remaining alive and slaying his fair share of orcs.

[pgt]

Great posts again - thank you very much - I'm humbled.

I specifically thought of the march of Dain's dwarves from the Hobbit when making the original post but didn't have the book handy and prompty forgot to make mention of it for who knows what reason. If someone posts the distance it might be interesting. That one 'may' have to be measured too.

Hey I remember that game (along w/ a copy Nat'l Lampoons 'version' of LOTR) - long gone though. I was shocked at the prices they are now fetching on ebay.

Gimli had a running 'competition' w/ Legolas on orc count. They were fairly neck and neck. I always got a general feeling that many warriors and such characters on the side of free peoples and so forth typically substantially out ratio'd their kills to orcs. This vague impression on my part goes all the way back to the battle of 5 armies. Both Leg and Gim were both well into the 40s if I recall by the end of TT making that 1:10 ratio somewhat low at least for them.

This makes me wonder if there are other references to Orcs that were indeed 'caught' in some battles that they 'fled' by men chasing them down...?

Though I like to refrain from making Hobbit references recall that the Goblins caught up to the Dwarves once or twice in their race for the east gate. They also caught up to them in the trees beyond the gate.

I'd have to agree w/ the points on Aragorn. To add to that consider the derisive nickname given him by an innkeeper. That conjure an image of a traveler by foot. (Now how come he doesn't live in the white towers and have a horse :) )

Good points that probably erode the original premise a bit more. If we presume this, why didn't they make better time against the Orcs? Could the ability to travel night and day, long distances in short time be one of the few strong attributes of Orcs?

Thanks!

[Ciryaher]

The Apache Indians of the Southwest were known to use horses to go 100-140 miles in a single day (of course at the consequence of the horse's heart exploding near the end...)

Also consider that Aragorn was a traveller by foot, and quite possibly had the endurance to make such a trek. The dwarves always traveled by foot, and did it almost always under large burdens. The distance between Erebor and the Iron Hills is comparable than that between the Emyn Muil and the Fangorn Forest, and an entire army of heavily-laden dwarves marched there in less than 6 days (according to my lenient calculations, which factored the time it would take for the birds to bring the message and the preparations Dain would have had to make). I could see a dwarf, ranger, and elf doing a similar distance when unburdened and over smoother ground [than the Iron Hills].

[Shagrat]

Hi all. I would just like to comment that we must remember the source of this entire story... Bilbo and Frodo over many many years. Hand drawn maps of lands never really surveyed in detail. Distances, dates, time, places and events have all most likely taken on a "legendary" status.

This is a story many thousands of years old, told by people many years after the story took place. A story about legendary heroes and mythical happenings. A story about the triumph over evil. And as all such stories go, probably not entirely accurate nor immune from the embellishments of repeated telling.

Just my two cents anyway, going by the train of thought in which Tolkien wrote these stories.. err, translated them.

[aragil]

Eomer says in TT that the companions had travelled 45 leagues in four days. www.webster.com lists a league as being between 2.4 and 4.6 statute miles. This means that they covered something between 108 and 207 miles in the 4 days. I certainly think the 108 miles is doable.

[Beorn]

*You've won Wheel of Fortune music starts playing...
Ya da da, da da da, da da daaa, da da daah, da da daaaah, da da da duuuuhhh...*

From Letter number 210 of The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien...Complain to Forrest J. Ackerman number 22

...In the book, lembas has two functions. It is a 'machine' or device for making credible the long marches with little provision, in a world in which as I have said 'miles are miles'...

*Mike jumps up and down like he won Wheel of Fortune, even though it is simply the first time he used The Letters to solve something :D*

BEAT THAT!

[carl]

according to my greatgrandfather a league = 3 mile or so he was taught in school.

[Beorn]

Originally posted by Mike B
From Letter number 210 of The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien...Complain to Forrest J. Ackerman number 22
...In the book, lembas has two functions. It is a 'machine' or device for making credible the long marches with little provision, in a world in which as I have said 'miles are miles'...
[/B]

Originally posted by Harad
pgt,
You don't need my support, but I offer it anyway. LOTR is so interesting, well written, inspirational that many otherwise normal (?) people spend time posting on the subject. To discuss interesting quirks or inconsistencies should not only be allowed but encouraged. The "Death March" is one such question. The worst that this examination could turn up is a JRRT scale miscalcuation--by a factor of ~2? Maybe even within the uncertainty of a "league"? Surely no more than that? Nevertheless a suggestion of deviation of even that magnitude from his perfection can lead to slings and arrows. Oh well, everybody gets slammed before they get popular.

I just proved that lembas was what kept them going...

[pgt]

Well all I want ot know is whether Lembas is on the DEA banned substances list or not! All kidding aside, thanks Harad and Mike.

(Hey if **** Clark doesn't have a little Numenorean in him maybe Lembas is his trick to youthfull appearance.)

cya

[Gandalf714]

I would say it was possibe fo them to travel the 45 leagues in four days. Spliting the difference between 2.4 miles and 4.6 miles you get 3.5 miles per league. Thats 157.5 miles in four days. almost 40 miles a day, assuming 12 hours of rest, 3 1/3 miles per hour a day. Now I've read how most believe Legalos could do this because he's an elf. Aren't we forgetting that Aragorn is decended directly from Elrond, thru his son Elros the first king of Numenor. that means he has elvish blood in his veins and would be more hardy than just a man.
And just as an aside it means Aragorn marries his sister an Age removed.

[Grond]

Actually Elrond and Elros were twin brothers, but the relationship is there. One must also understand that Elros chose man and because of this, was not deemed to have Elven blood. Aragorn was described in the text as the most hardy of men of the age, so that would explain his endurance, strength and stamina.

I haven't counted the generations, but Arwen would have been Aragorn's first cousin at least 300 times removed. So no problem with genetic mixing here!:)

[Gandalf714]

You are correct Grond, Elrond and Elros were brothers, but Aragorn says, in the Houses of Healing, "Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power." He's putting himself in the same race as Elrond. Don't you think that would mean he retained some elven blood or traits?

[Grond]

I won't argue the point. The relationship is there. Elrond was Aragorn's great uncle to the 500th power or so. In reading the Silmarillion, it is made clear that the Doom of Mandos hovers over the House of Elros. He chose to be numbered among the Edain or man. To them, many lives of normal man were granted by Eru or Manwe (I don't remember which). So, the same blood flows in their veins but the normal attributes of Elves would not apply, as I read the texts.

That would make Aragorn's statement true, Elrond would be the eldest of his Race as Aragorn's race was listed among the Half-Elven who were given the choice between the gift of the Eldar or the Gift of Iluvator to man.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Grond
I won't argue the point. The relationship is there. Elrond was Aragorn's great uncle to the 500th power or so. In reading the Silmarillion, it is made clear that the Doom of Mandos hovers over the House of Elros. He chose to be numbered among the Edain or man. To them, many lives of normal man were granted by Eru or Manwe (I don't remember which). So, the same blood flows in their veins but the normal attributes of Elves would not apply, as I read the texts.

That would make Aragorn's statement true, Elrond would be the eldest of his Race as Aragorn's race was listed among the Half-Elven who were given the choice between the gift of the Eldar or the Gift of Iluvator to man.

But Grond, Aragorn's "race" weren't listed among the Half-Elven after Elros made his choice - although a lot of his descendants in Numenor wished they did have the choice. However, maybe I misunderstood your last paragraph because you're dead-on about the blood relation.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Ciryaher
Also note that maps drawn by hand are not entirely accurate, and what might seem to be a certain distance actually might be quite less (or greater, for that matter).


Here is the first mention posted in this thread of the all-important fact: The map as published in LotR was acknowledged to have many problems both by JRRT and CT.

Thus, any measurement derived from this map in an attempt to discover just how far Aragorn & Co. traveled is not accurate.

This makes the issue somewhat moot. :)

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Ciryaher
The Apache Indians of the Southwest were known to use horses to go 100-140 miles in a single day (of course at the consequence of the horse's heart exploding near the end...)

Also consider that Aragorn was a traveller by foot, and quite possibly had the endurance to make such a trek. The dwarves always traveled by foot, and did it almost always under large burdens. The distance between Erebor and the Iron Hills is comparable than that between the Emyn Muil and the Fangorn Forest, and an entire army of heavily-laden dwarves marched there in less than 6 days (according to my lenient calculations, which factored the time it would take for the birds to bring the message and the preparations Dain would have had to make). I could see a dwarf, ranger, and elf doing a similar distance when unburdened and over smoother ground [than the Iron Hills].

When I was in college studying history, I learned that a Chiricahua Apache could travel 50 miles a day across the desert on foot.

This is known fact (published in Nat'l Geographic... :) )

Also a fact...

Gary Parsons (an Australian from Queensland) ran 17,071 kilometres between April 25, 1999 and December 16, 1999.

Doing the math, you come to realize that Mr. Parsons had to average around 41.5 miles each and EVERY day for 255 days in order to accomplish this.

And this is in Australia (he ran around the island anti-clockwise), where the weather is not temperate all of the year as it appears to have been for those short four days from the Emyn Muil to the eaves of Fangorn.

Lembas-schembas. Here are two REAL WORLD examples of people who are able to run VAST distances.

Interesting question, PGT, but you could have spared all of this conflict with a little research.

[Tyaronumen]

Whoops... I was using a 255 day estimate (from Apr 25 - Dec 31)... actually, since it was Apr 25 - Dec 16, our man Parsons was accomplishing better than 42 miles per day on average.

[Grond]

Ty, we're still back to the statement made by Eomer of "Forty leagues and five you have meaured ere the fourth day is ended!"

So we're back to how long is a league; but your example shows that it can be done with training, and I would daresay that all three were used to forced marches and running.

[Tyaronumen]

Grond -- in Unfinished Tales in the Disaster at Gladden Fields, the figures that JRRT/CT use indicate that a league is 3 miles...

Now I just read this the other day, so I am certain of that particular figure... but I am unable to provide a page number, etc., at this time since I am currently at the office.

However, it is to be found in the section where Isildur's decision to cut north along the Greenwood (passing Gladden Fields) is evaluated (with the distances from Minas Tirith given to the end of the old north-south road to the Far Downs and then again from the Far Downs along the east-west road to Rivendell)...

This would mean that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas traveled 135 miles in four days.

Undoubtedly, our man Parsons (having had to travel an average of 168 miles in a period of four days over his looooong journey) would consider this journey to be almost laughable in comparison to his 42-mile-a-day 240 day journey around Australia.

I would also like to note at this time that the information I got regarding Gary Parsons only indicated the amount of running he'd done _when he broke the record_. Every indication was given by Parsons that he would not cease his run around Australia (instead beginning it a second time) just because he'd broken the old record.

I think that any doubts anyone has left over as to whether a man can cover 135 miles in four days has been answered. Conclusively.

And without needing to use Lembas as an explanation.

[Grond]

Ty, a thorough review of this thread would reveal that I have been in concurrence with your assertion all along that this was no "big deal" for our three travelers. Is your recent antagonism towards me a result of my Ayn Rand comments or have I done something else to you in another life?

[Tyaronumen]

No antagonism intended, I just seem to rub you the wrong way. :)

Actually, the only part of the message that was specifically addressed to you was the mention that in Disaster at Gladden Fields the league is 3 miles, etc, etc, etc.

Sorry if that was not clear. I do not now, nor ever will bear antagonism toward ya. :) Unless you do something really icky. ;)

[Grond]

Well, I can promise you that I won't mention the writings of Ayn Rand on the forum again.... that's for sure.:)

[Tyaronumen]

To be honest, I didn't even catch the Ayn Rand quotations! :D

And I enjoy, rather than deplore, the philosophical path of conversation, e'en though I may disagree with the particular view espoused. :)

[daisy]

This may have been said and I missed it, but how much of a head start did the orc party with Merry and Pippin have on Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli? When I read it, it seemed to maybe have been half a day - preparing Boromir for waterfall send-off etc. Yet the trail grew really cold fairly fast - so were the orcs travelling at a faster pace or did they take a different route or what?

someone enlighten me please.
daisy

[Grond]

The orcs did indeed have about a half day head start and they did not stop at all. They ran straight through with only short rests and no sleeping. I don't have my book in front of me but I know that the good guys stopped at least two nights to rest and thus fell even further behind.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.:)

[daisy]

So all this time I have thought orcs actually physically couldn't 'do' daylight - like a wicked witch of the west thing but they just didn't like it? Less visibility or a Gollum-like aversion?
Also, I guess these orcs were Saruman hybrids so they were able to handle sunlight. I have always found the passages in the book where the characters are travelling to be somewhat hard to keep track of time-wise, except for the descent into Mordor of Sam, Frodo and Gollum because Tolkein very clearly spells out - it's been three days and the lembas rations...anyway thanks for the quick reply, Grond!
daisy:)

[Grond]

Daisy, actually the main group of Orcs are in fact, Saruman's Uruk-hai orcs who have no aversion to sunlight. Ironically, they are joined by some of Sauron's orcs and have a great big fight on which way to go. I remember one's name was Shagrat and one was Gorbad? Don't remember which was which but the Orthanc orcs won and the party continued towards Fanghorn and Isengard.:)

And the 3 trackers did follow the orcs for a full four days. If I remember correctly it was Eomer that said something to the effect of "45 leagues in four days...".

[aragil]

Gorbag was an orc captain (Uruk) from Minas Morgul. Shagrat was the orc captain of Cirith Ungol. The two had it out over Frodo, and decimated the tower guard. You're thinking of Grishnak, the feller who drags Pippin and Merry out beyond the perimeter of the Rohan brigade before being conveniently shot by an arrow and then gored by a lance. Grishnak's boys actually did even better than the rest of the orcs (Uruk-hai and Moria orcs). Grishnak was chased out of the group at the foot of the Emyn Muil, went back to Anduin, reported to the Nazgul, and then received two score of Orcs to bring back to Ugluk's group. Somehow the three hunters completely missed Grishnak's troop, which was able to catch up to the Isengarders at about the same time as when the Rohirrim caught them. In my opinion, Grishnak's boys definitely ran the best race across Rohan.

[Grond]

I was hung over last night and didn't have my book for reference. Besides, all Orc names sound that same Gorbad, Shagrat, Ugluk, Lurtz. Hey, give a guy a break.;)

Besides the story was right wasn't it. (Boy is Grond embarrassed on this one!!)