An Optional Screenplay / Council of Elrond

[Thorin]

Alright folks. We were challenged by Courtney to come up with a screenplay for a scene if we didn't like the way PJ did it...So here is the Council of Elrond that I have done. This screenplay is an insertion in place of Jackson’s council, still part of the movie and taking into account Jackson’s previous scenes, specifically the telling of the history of the ring at the beginning of the movie, and the voice over of Galadriel. I know I could do more, but I;m anxious to post this. Sure it is not perfect but I wanted to show some of the things the movie lacked while still trying to keep it exciting and suspenseful by movie standards:

1) Having Narsil play more of a part in Aragorn's and Gondor's destiny than what was shown in the movie.
2) Introduce characters omitted, how then can add to the ring's story, as well as give Gandalf a bigger part like the book.
3) Explain Boromir's presence a bit better and Gondor's part
4) Show the riddle of Isildur's Bane and why Frodo plays the part he does.

Though I was told time factor wasn't an issue, I tried to keep it as short as possible, yet give the book justice. Be merciful to me folks! I know some of you are going to love pounding me on this one!

Screenplay for Council of Elrond

(Bell rings)

GANDALF : (speaking to Frodo) That is the warning bell for the Council of Elrond. Come along now. Both you and Bilbo are wanted.

(All three walk through the door of Elrond’s home and camera from behind shows Elrond standing at the head of the table and the future fellowship and other elves sitting around the table)(All three walk through the door of Elrond’s home and camera from behind shows Elrond standing at the head of the table and the future fellowship and other elves sitting around the table)

ELROND: Here my friends is the hobbit, Frodo son of Drogo. Few if ever come here through greater peril or on an errand more urgent.

(Elrond introduces each member by name and where they are from, camera pans to each as introduced)

(Gloin stands up and addresses the council)

GLOIN: About a year ago, a messenger from Mordor came to Dain, King under the mountain. (Flash to scenes of a rider, similar to the black riders coming to the dwarf kingdom before Dain and continue scenes as Gloin talks) A horseman in the night. Sauron seeks our friendship, he said, and information on hobbits. In exchange he promised us rings like the rings of old. He wanted us to find a thief who stole one of Sauron’s rings, as a token of good will. He has come twice and gone unanswered by Dain. The third and last time , so he says, is soon to come before the ending of this year. And so I have been sent by Dain to warn Bilbo that he is sought by the Enemy, and to learn if may be, why he desires this ring.

ELROND:You have done well to come. You will hear today all that you need in order to understand the purposes of the enemy. I will tell you the tale of the ring from its beginning.

(Camera pans around as Elrond begins to speak)

VOICE OVER: And so Elrond told them the tale of the forging of the ring in Mount Doom by Sauron, the Second Alliance of Men and Elves, of the overthrow of Sauron and the claiming of the ring by Isildur, and of the betrayal of Isildur by the ring and its loss.

(Camera pans to Elrond once more)

ELROND: Sauron was diminished, but not destroyed. His ring was lost but not unmade. The Dark Tower was broken buts its foundations were not removed, for they were made with the power of the ring and while it remains, they will endure.

(Boromir stands up and bows his head at Elrond)

BOROMIR: Give me leave, Master Elrond to speak of Gondor for from there I have come. The Nameless Enemy has arisen again. (Flash to scenes of Mordor, and Baradur while Boromir speaks) Smoke rises once more from Orodruin that we call Mount Doom. . Long have we fought and held back the enemy on our borders.(Flash to battles between orcs, men of Harad and Gondor) I fear that in time, unless aid should come to us, Gondor may fall. This evil hour I have come to ask council of you. Twice a dream came upon my brother and once upon me. In it a voice spoke a riddle: Seek for the sword that was broken, in Imladris it dwells. There shall be counsels taken stronger than Morgul spells. There shall be shown a token that doom is near at hand. For Isildur’s bane shall waken and the Hafling forth shall stand’ My father Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith stated that Imladris was of old the dwelling place in the north of Elrond Half-Elven. Long have I wandered seeking the house of Elrond.

ARAGORN: And here in the house of Elrond more shall be made clear to you.
(Stands and lays Narsil on the table)

(Boromir looks at Narsil and then at Aragorn with suspicion and puzzlement)

BOROMIR: Who are you and what have you to do with Gondor?

ELROND: He is Aragorn, son of Arathorn. Heir of Isildur. Heir to the throne of Gondor.
(Boromir looks at Aragorn with a distrustful and hardened look then turns away)

FRODO : (Jumps up, addressing Aragorn) Then the ring belongs to you not to me!

ARAGORN: (Looking kindly at Frodo)It does not belong to either of us, but it has been ordered that you should carry it.

GANDALF: (Turns to Frodo) : Bring out the ring Frodo. The time has come. Hold it up and then Boromir will understand the remainder of the riddle.

(Frodo reluctantly takes out the ring. Camera zooms in on it in the palm of his hand)

ELROND: Behold, Ilsildur’s Bane!

BOROMIR: (Stunned and disheartened) The Halfling. Then has our doom come at last? (Battle scene flashes again of armies of Gondor being overtaken)

ARAGORN: Doom and great deeds are at hand. The Sword that was broken is Elendil’s sword, the same sword used by Isildur to cut the ring from the hand of Sauron and which will be reforged. Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the land of Gondor?

BOROMIR: The Sword of Elendil would be a help beyond our hope - if such a thing could indeed return out of the shadows of the past. (Looks doubtfully and scornfully at Aragorn)

(Gandalf stands up to speak)

GANDALF: After many years, the ring was found again by the creature Gollum, and then by chance, so it may seem, by Bilbo. Now we have heard the tale. Here we all are, and here is the Ring. but we have not yet come any nearer to our purpose. What shall we do with it?

(Camera pans from Gandalf to Frodo to the ring.)

ELROND: The ring cannot be hidden, for it will eventually be found. We do not have the strength to resist the enemy as long as the ring remains. Their lies our hope, if hope it be. To walk into peril-to Mordor. We must send the Ring to the Fire of Mount Doom from where it was forged.

BOROMIR: (Standing up suddenly and with eagerness) I don’t understand. Gondor weakens but has not yet fallen. Why do you speak of hiding and destroying? Why should we not think that the Great Ring has come into our hands to serve us in our time of need?

ELROND: We cannot use the Ruling Ring. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. It’s strength, Boromir is too great for anyone to wield at will.

(Boromir looks doubtful and resentful, yet lowers his eyes from the gaze of Elrond and sits down)

BOROMIR: So be it.

(Bilbo stands up and speaks with righteous indignation and pomp)

BILBO: Very well, very well, Master Elrond! Say no more! I know what all this is implying! Bilbo the silly hobbit started this affair and Bilbo had better finish it for himself. I was very comfortable here, and getting on with my book. When ought I to start?

GANDALF : (with some amusement) Of course, dear Bilbo, if you had really started this affair, you might be expected to finish it. Your valiant offer, though made in jest is one beyond your strength, Bilbo. You cannot take this thing back. Finish your book, but be ready to write a sequel when they get back.

BILBO: And who do you mean by “they”?

GANDALF: The messengers who are sent with the Ring, though we do not know who they will be.

(Camera pans to Frodo showing an obvious inner struggle. Finally Frodo stands slowly as all eyes turn to him)

FRODO: I will take the ring, though I do not know the way.

(Elrond and the others look towards Frodo, Sam with widening eyes stands up)

SAM: (flabbergasted) You won’t send him off alone, surely Master?

ELROND: (turning to look at Sam) No indeed. You at least shall go with him. It is hardly possible to separate you from him even when he is summoned to a secret council and you are not.

(Sam blushes and looks away, then looks at Frodo and sits down)

(Elrond thinks for a moment)

ELROND: The fellowship of the ring will be nine, to be set against the nine riders that are evil. And I will choose the companions to go with Frodo and Sam representing the free peoples of the world. Legolas shall be for the elves, Gimli son of Gloin for the Dwarves. For men, you shall have Aragorn son of Arathorn and Boromir of Gondor. The other two I have not yet decided.

(Merry and Pippin, listening behind the door, rush in)

MERRY: We don’t want to be left behind! We want to go with Frodo!

ELROND: I need messengers to go back to the Shire to do what they can and warn people of their danger. I wish to send the two of you.

PIPPEN: Then master Elrond, you will have to lock us in prison or send us home tied in a sack, otherwise we will follow the company!

(Elrond sighs)

ELROND: Let it be so then. You shall go. Now the tale of Nine is filled. Soon the company must part.

(Noon bell rings)

[Ancalagon]

What do I think? I think you have taken time, even though it is unrequired, to post an excelllent alternative to the version we witnessed.

If I had one query, it would be the omission of Aragorns remark to Boromir regarding his Ancestry, but then again; Arwen already stole that in the movie.

Well Done.

[Greymantle]

Apologies again for not getting back to you in time... *glances mornfully at his scribbled comments from 2 AM*
Given that this is intended as a literal replacement for the PJ CoE, and that there are severe time constraints, I feel that your screenplay works very well. It remains accurate to character and plot, and the only changes are necessary cuts for time. Elrond, Gloin and Bilbo are excellent additions/alterations from the PJ.
However, if I were to view this as a piece of a new film (part of a set of six, perhaps?), there would be many things I would have done differently. In general, I adore long scenes of council and debate above all others, both in books and in movies. I also firmly believe that the Council of Elrond is truly one of the most important parts if all of LotR: the long history of the Ring, and the momentous decision about what must be done with it. For both of these reasons, I would advocate the inclusion of large bits of dialogue and film time for this scene, rather than the abbreviated form forced in the PJ.
First of all, in my half-way comments I proposed the same thing you added in this final version: scenes of history, narrated by the speaking characters (Gloin, Boromir, Gandalf, Bilbo). That way, the original book text can be preserved while maintaining the audience's attention. I would advocate the inclusion of each of the accounts-- notably missing in this version is Bilbo's account, but that is probably because this was already explained at the beginning of the PJ.
Even if they have to be in abbreviated form, I think that every major part of the Council should be included. Bilbo's verses and Aragorn's monologue directly following come to mind.
Finally, even if it takes up a lot of screen time, I definately think the debate and choosing of the Fellowship should be done differently. Following Gandalf's "What shall we do with it?" there are pages and pages of debate in the book. In this version, the entire argument and thought process is summed up in a few words of Elrond's. This is obviously because of time constraints; but given the freedom, this scene could be portrayed very well in its full speldour, as the book had it. Also included is discussion of what the end of the One means, and reveals the great sacrifice of the Elves. All of this culminates, finally, in Frodo's simple words: "I will take the Ring, though I do not know the way." The scene finally ends with Sam's extremely appropriate comment: "A nice pickle we've landed ourselves in, Mr. Frodo!" :)
Since Thorin's version is a replacement for the PJ, the choosing of the Fellowship and the words of Merry and Pippin are forced to be in the scene. To me this seems very rushed. It looks as though Elrond has been decided all along, and just says "Okay! Whatever! Here you go, have fun." In the book, the Fellowship is not announced until two months after the Council, obviously giving time for Elrond to think. Furthermore, the book strongly implies that the Companions make the choice themselves, and are consulted by Elrond. Having them suddenly be picked and sent off to Mordor doesn't seem very likely or very logical. Boromir, at least, would have had many qulams had he immediately been forced to go.
Hmmm.... I think I've run out of things to say, at least for the moment. It may sound as though I'm being nit-picky... sorry! Don't be fooled: Great, job, Thorin! :cool: Well done.

[chrome_rocknave]

I think that you done a wonderful job :D Although I would have had a more obvious inner struggle with Frodo (trying to decide if he should take the ring) I thought your version was great! I only wish that you could have shown it to PJ before he came up with his own, quite different version.

[Thorin]

Boy, it sure would have been nice to get this feedback BEEEFOOOORRE!!!! I posted this...;)

Yeah, I looked at the rushed scenes after Bilbo spoke and thought "Jeez, this sounds corny!" Because I was replacing PJ's version and thinking about the time restraints of a movie, I decided, like PJ, to include Elrond's decisions at the same time as the council. It wouldn't seem right to all of a sudden put in..."two months later"... I guess it shows that that scene NEEDS be like the book to really make sense.

Elrond's decision is the only part I would like to redo.
And yes, I cut Bilbo's story down because it was mentioned at the beginning of the movie.

Thanks for the feedback so far guys!

[Foe-Hammer]

What I will do now is, prepare these roles and basically act out the scene and see how it translates to live acting. Right off, it looks like about 6 minutes longer than the pj version. Thats not a problem because some of what you cover here might be eliminated in other areas. The real trick is the rushed scene with bilbo. If I might suggest a technique for that specific spot?
1) We need a visual to help blend bilbos offer to take the ring. a shot of him with a look on his face that he feels they are talking about him. This should go back and forth 2 times and then he makes the offer.

I also think that the introductions and then the selections of the 9 coupled with the time Gloin gets will over-power the real character of the scene, which is frodo of course. But really I must wait to judge that until I see it acted out.

Good job.

[Mearas]

I like Thorin's screenplay better than what I actually saw on screen!

[chrome_rocknave]

Me too! LOL :D If only we could have seen this version on screen!

[Ancalagon]

I also think that the introductions and then the selections of the 9 coupled with the time Gloin gets will over-power the real character of the scene, which is frodo of course

I agree, but surely Frodos power should have been realised at the Ford! This would have removed the need for an addition to the Council.

Arwen; Come back with Frodos power. it's not yours too keep!

[Foe-Hammer]

ancalagon,

I think we should allow the Fellowship of the Re-write to get a workable entertaining screenplay for the CoE, before asking them to re-write the other scenes. (if they chose to do so)

Great job Fellowship!

[Aerin]

Great job Thorin!!! :)
I wish that version had been in the movie! That explains so much more than PJ did!
One thing that has bugged me from the movie is the lack of symbolism. Narsil has little or no part in the movie. It goes from a broken blade on a pedestal to a sword in Aragorn's scabbard. The CoE should have had much more importance laid on Aragorn's true identity and his sword with its lineage. Also, Boromir's horn had absolutely no part in the movie until he blew it before he died.
I think PJ was going in for special effects more than the symbolism behind FotR. There were many things that happened in the book because of the history behind them, that were completely glossed over in the movie.
True, there was some importance laid on Narsil in the movie, but you only found it if you were looking for it and had read the book.

I'm not trying to nit-pick here, just saying that I would have prefered more of the history and symbolism to have showed up in the movie.

Once again Thorin, Good Job!

[Foe-Hammer]

Sorry thorin, I tried.
I guess they aren't going to be happy until you're re-written the entire story. Their suggestions, I think you'll agree, would force you to ignore their scenes or pare your version down to make theirs do-able. I think you should stick to your interpretation of it and just refine it until it will actually work in the medium of film.

Despair not! I'm rooting for ya!

[Ciryaher]

Very good. More descriptive and less dwarf spittle ;)

Did anyone else catch the 'drooling dwarves'?

[Evenstar]

Great job Thorin!!!!

This was great- it proved that the Council of Elrond could be shortened and still have meaning. :D

[Beorn]

Very good Thorin! I like how you've taken 5 original apples from 10 (I dunno why, but I like my apples...). I was thinking of acting it out myself, but Foe did that...I'd be amazing if everyone pitched in and rewrote it. Then we could send it off to PJ...hehe... Of course, that'd take a lot of conversing between what gets chopped and what doesn't....

[Foe-Hammer]

Evenstar,

Well, we haven't proven anything. This was not an exercise in futility. We still have to make sure it works on film, do some editing and refine it until we like it.

The next step is to act it out and see how the story flows and make sure that the important parts are emphasized.

[Grond]

Thorin, an excellent and well thought out endeavor. I applaud you. As a matter of fact, I applaud everyone who has responded on this thread. These comments are very productive and I agree that it would be great if we did entirely rewrite the screenplay just to show that it could have been done. Yes, it might not have come off as well on the screen, but I think it would have.

Foe-hammer, I am making a promise not to be personal or attacking anymore. You're contribution to this thread is excellent and I hope we will find more areas where all participants in the forum can get along and work together for the betterment of both the movie threads and the book threads. Hail and well met all!:)

[Greenleaf]

Thorin, excellent! it stuck so much better to the book the did PJs :)

[Greenwood]

Thorin

Excellent. A most impressive job. I mean that sincerely. Unfortunately I think the scene might take half an hour of screen time if it was not going to be extremely rushed. Remember that the various scenes that you refer to as "flashes" also take screen time if the viewer is to absorb them.

[Aldanil]

Bravo to Orcrist-wielding Oakenshield for his proto-screenplay, using that famous Elven-blade his pen as scalpel surgically to repair and redress some of the mournful Jacksonian scarring. This central great scene and set-piece of interlacing narrative, so ripe to be told in the intercut fashion that film can so richly portray, is much better served by your effort, Thorin, than its hashed presentation by PJ & Co. Once more, I'm moved to recommend mightily that any and all lovers of LOTR lay hand and reader's eye to Tom Shippey's book "JRRT: Author Of The Century", which I'll be drawing on again in my new thread next; pages 68-82 well and brightly bring into light the chapter's bulging treasure-hoard of character-revelation and story-telling threads. The movie's chop-job version rather reminds me of that well-known line in "A Few Good Men", spoken by another Jack(Nichol)son: "You want the Council of Elrond? You Can't HANDLE the Council of Elrond!" The salient point being, that the angry Marine colonel in the courtroom is wrong, yes we can handle it thank you, and even if we couldn't, it still wouldn't suffice to serve as any defense, excuse, or justification for the wrong that was done. Thorin's fine draft makes me ask: are there places still to be filled in the Fellowship of the Re-Write? Alas, another golden opportunity missed by Lord Peter J the Auteur!

[Eomer Dinmention]

Congratulations Thorin that was very good you took a long time and in the end it was worth it

[Thorin]

:) I appreciate all the positive comments! I must admit that I thought I'd be lambasted on this one. I tried to make something that the even the die-hard movie fans and the die-hard purists (like myself) could accept and appreciate. I hope that I have done that at least, though I know there are many revisions that I could do right now on it.

I would like more opinions, positive or negative, on this screenplay from more of the members. I am planning on doing another one on the whole Prancing Pony scene, in the bar and in the room. Though these scenes do need to be cut down and altered from what Tolkien wrote, I felt that they could have been done better in the movie.

If anyone agrees and thinks this would be a good idea and would wish me to start working, or would like to collaborate on it, let me know!

[stevehope]

I like it a lot. My suggestion would be to cut all of the cut scenes (Gondor battling Mordor) and have Elrond summarize what Gloin said and perhaps reduce the number of times Boromir interjects (i.e. consolidate his various concerns into a single exchange between Boromir and Elrond and Aragorn towards the end of the Council). The last may not be possible , but I'd be nervous about fitting everything in that you include within the time allotted.

[Thorin]

I thought about combining speeches, but I didn't consolidate all the things that Boromir and Elrond said because each comment has a specific response that is necessary for the other to exist. By combining all of Boromir's comments to be answered by all of Elrond's comments would not make the scene any shorter, and to combine them and then cut them down would seem rushed and too compacted.

I wasn't given a time factor to do this, but I tried to keep it reasonable. I don't think that it would take a half hour like Greenwood thinks. I think that it would move fairly quick (20 minutes at most) but I think Foe said he might be acting this out to see. That would be interesting.

Thanks stevehope for your comments! :)

[PRH]

If you really wanted to put Elrond's choice for the Fellowship members into another scene, you could do like Bashki did and have Elrond do a voice over as they are leaving Rivendell explaining his choices. This would have to be carefully done so as not to destroy the scene of huge vista shots with music only.

Nevertheless, it's a great rewrite for sure - nice job!

[Foe-Hammer]

I figure roughly about 11 minutes for Thorins first draft. Obviously too long, IMO, for a scene that is admittedly less than riveting.

The first change I would suggest is a segue into the invitation to Elronds council. Perhapes, gandalf passing by, poking his head in the door as Frodo and Bilbo finish with the freak-out scene.

2nd change. Did anyone else notice how even as the second showing of Sauron's finger getting cut off, it seemed boring? Like "OK, what did I miss the first time?". While re-writing this we need to not repeat ourselves, or state the obvious. There are other things, but that'll wait.
For that reason I feel the introductions should wait until the point that Elrond announces who the 9 will be. Except for Frodo, of course. That will pare the time down while keeping it true to the intent. I also like the idea of the voice over as the fellowship leaves Rivendale. That is very workable.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Foe-Hammer
I figure roughly about 11 minutes for Thorins first draft. Obviously too long, IMO, for a scene that is admittedly less than riveting.

The first change I would suggest is a segue into the invitation to Elronds council. Perhapes, gandalf passing by, poking his head in the door as Frodo and Bilbo finish with the freak-out scene.



That's it?? Eleven minutes?? Great! I thought is was going to be longer. I think taking 11 minutes to properly show a pivotal moment in explaining to the audience more of what needs to happen concerning the ring is time well used, no matter how riveting. That is why I put a few flashbacks to keep interest to get through an important part. And when you look at many movies, there are far longer explanation scenes that subject the audience to meaningless dialogue rather than explain a purpose. That does not mean that a few riveting things couldn't be added or the scene itself be spruced up. I think the dialogue is important, though. Don't under estimate the power of the well thought out and spoken word to keep people's attention! After all, I hang on your words with eager anticipation like waiting for honey to come out of the comb! :)

The only riveting things that occurred in the movie's scene were Gimli smacking the ring with his axe and the council erupting into the Jerry Springer show. I would call that less then riveting compared to most scenes, considering that the surrounding happenings of the Council left me more confused and short changed then anything.

I like the idea of melding the two scenes with Gandalf and Bilbo's conversation. My question is this: Didn't the movie show the Bilbo/Frodo scene AFTER the council of Elrond?

[Foe-Hammer]

Yes, you're right and that means we can't use the voice over the way I imagined it because frodo recieves the mithril shirt before they leave rivendale and after the 9 are selected.

11 minutes is 6% of the total film time and we haven't dealt with Narsil yet, and the rest of the rivendale scenes. I imagine the entire Rivendale scene from the movie being no more than 8 minutes or so and that includes the council scene. We wont know for sure until the DVD is out. Bummer. Cause I don't want to start talking about deleting other scenes because it will get pretty balled up real fast. But on the other hand, we don't want to spend a ton of time on this scene and then scrap a lot of it over time constraints.

Well, that not worry about time. Figure out the segue to brgin the scene, and trim the repeticious dialogue and well see how it works.

[PRH]

Foe

Yes, you're right and that means we can't use the voice over the way I imagined it because frodo recieves the mithril shirt before they leave rivendale and after the 9 are selected.


Elrond might state that companions will be selected in the Council. Sam can of course burst into the Council demanding to go with Frodo and Elrond would say "no indeed...ect" and continue with "other companions I will appoint to join you and these I will consider" or something to that effect. Then you'd have the scene with Bilbo giving Sting and the shirt, then they'd leave Rivendell and we'll have the voiceover naming the appointed companions.

Still, this treatment might do more harm to the scene of vistas then it would do good to the narrative. I don't know.


Also, why should the scene start with Gandalf leading Frodo and Bilbo into the Council? As the movie currently has it, we cut from Arwen and Aragorn on the bridge to the long shot of the Council - which is very nice. I think the scene could still start with Elrond introducing Frodo around without Frodo explicitly entering the Council last being shown.

[Wide Boy]

Top effort, Thorin.

I'm a PJ FOTR version fan, overall I gave the movie about 85%. However, the Council of Elrond was in the other 15%. Your version would have improved that dramatically. The "Seek for the Sword that was broken" rhyme is particularly important.

The only thing I'd add is getting in the bit where Gandalf recites the rhyme of the Ring in the Black Speech. I always find that to be a dramatic and pivotal moment when I read the book and it would counter what some people are saying is the risk of the whole scene being a bit rivet-less. I don't agree but I concede that there are some movie goers whose attention span might be tested by it.

[Foe-Hammer]

prh,

As it isn't my screenplay we'll leave it to thorin to make the changes. I hope it hasn't become overwhelming for him yet. I think it is very close and I'm pretty sure he's making changes in his free time.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Wide Boy
Top effort, Thorin. The only thing I'd add is getting in the bit where Gandalf recites the rhyme of the Ring in the Black Speech. I always find that to be a dramatic and pivotal moment when I read the book and it would counter what some people are saying is the risk of the whole scene being a bit rivet-less. I don't agree but I concede that there are some movie goers whose attention span might be tested by it.

Thanks Wide,

You know what? When I set out to do this screenplay, I meant to add that Black Speech episode to keep it a bit menacing....I totally forgot!! What was I thinking?

Foe,

Maybe I'm a little dense at getting the message, but I wasn't even planning on redoing or changing the screenplay :rolleyes: ....If there is an interest in me creating a finished product with all the input I've received, I will go back and do it....And I would like to add in the Black Speech/Gandalf scene.

Any objections?

PS: I have finished the revised screenplay for the bar scene at the Prancing Pony and have submitted it to a few people for review. There are a few problems with the whole thing, however and I'm not sure how to solve them....yet.

[Wide Boy]

We want the script! We want the script! We want the script!

[Foe-Hammer]

Thorin,

No, you don't have to. It just wouldn't work the way it is and by the time it was ready for film, you would not have what you started with.
Among the other things I've already mentioned, Gloin takes over the scene and Frodo's acceptance of the ring is like "OH, yeah, that's why we were here". It just comes off differently on film. And the viewer does not have a book in front of him to develope Frodos character here.

So as it is, I'd have to disagree that it is a better than what we have in the FOTR and this is probably why PJ did it the way he did. Nothing personal.

[Grond]

Thorin.... forget it! No matter how good your product is, they will find fault. It won't work on film. It won't translate to the audience. It won't reflect visually what's on the written medium.

Foe, your last post has four negatives in the first paragraph alone. I equalled your four negatives in my paragraph above. Our basic differences are easily explained. Your standards relate to how the movie reflects the screenplay's adaptation. Our purist standards relate to how well the book is reflected in the movie.:)

[Foe-Hammer]

Grond,

I thought thorin did a great job. You just don't expect to throw a screenplay that took a couple hours out there and have it be perfect, do you? And you just can't say "There, thats better than what we have already" without proving it somehow. I was serious about this challenge and I believe that it is possible to write a better scene than what we have already. But we don't have that yet and that isn't a slam at Thorin. He is not a writer and he did a good job. He had the balls to put his vision out there for everyone to see and to be judged by FAD and weenie alike.

Our differences are really explained this way....

My standards relate how well the book was adapted to a screenplay and how that screenplay was filmed.

You have skipped the middle step. And that is not a view that is realistic when adapting books to movies.

I suggest YOU come up with your version of this scene and we'll see if you can improve on what PJ did.

[Wide Boy]

I'm a bit lost with where this debate is going. Even those of us who see much merit in PJ's work mostly agree that the Council of Elrond is one thing he doesn't get full marks for. Thorin's version might have a few bits to tidy up but it is still streets ahead. And what I've read says to me that most people are of that view.

I'd personally love to see a revised, polished product but not all of us are in a position to do naught else but write detailed screenplays for our fellow members' entertainment. If Thorin is able to find the time to do a final, then that would be fantastic but I'm grateful for the outline we have already seen.

I would have thought we have plenty to argue about without having to get into spats about something we all like......:D

[Wide Boy]

Hmmm...... Harad you have planted the seed of doubt. Are we just so critical of the Council of Elrond because we've all memorsied it and see a lot of what we think is necessary material left out? I know a couple of Tolkien virgins who saw the movie. I'll check with them to see if they give the same response as your five.

You almost had me convinced until you referred to Fritz-the-Cat Bakshi.

[Thorin]

Thanks for the feedback and support! :) I haven't decided if I am going to go back and edit the COE yet. I am planning on posting a new screenplay on the Prancing Pony in two parts: the scene at the bar where Frodo accidentally puts on the ring; and the scene in the room where Aragorn reveals himself to the hobbits. I am finished the first scene and am waiting for some feedback. I want to make it as a replacement for PJ's scene. That means that I would have to make it make sense with what happens before and after. Herein lies the problem...

I want to include Gandalf's letter. I know that in the movie, Gandalf goes straight to Orthanc and then ends up in Rivendell at the same time as Strider and the hobbits. In the book, he gives Butterbur the message before he goes to Orthanc, so it could still work. Considering Gandalf's letter drop is not shown, but discovered later in the book, I feel that it would be feasible to put it in my screenplay. I think that it is important to further develop Aragorn's character which is one of the reason's why I am doing it.

Any comments?

[PRH]

Thorin,

The letter will be hard to work in around the existing scenes. I'm not sure how you'll do it. I had a very long message typed out here with a suggested outline but I just couldn't make it work plot-wise. I kept making changes to have it make sense and the changes kept taking things in the direction of the book (what does that tell you?). No, I don't think you can really make it work with the letter without bringing it almost completely back to the book's scenario.

Also, what would be the point of the letter? In the book the point is for Frodo to set out immedietly from the Shire (and also that Strider is a friend, but this is the lesser purpose of the writing). In the movie, Frodo is already on his way when Gandalf leaves.

I'm anxious to see what you come up with anyway!

[Jamesy]

excellent thorin that is the kinda common-sense that was needed when they were producing the film.

[Foe-Hammer]

jamesy,

Well since the movie has made almost $300 mil in 14 days, you won't be offended if I chose their kind of common sense over yours, right?

[Grond]

Once again I will be civilly at odds with you Foe. We are not arguing that the movie wasn't successful. We're not arguing that the movie doesn't deserve to be successful. We're just arguing that it could have been better!! Your jabs are misplaced. After all, Thorin is simply responding to your challenge to right a script that includes more of the way things happened in the book and I think he's doing an admirable job. Don't be sour grapes about that.

[Jamesy]

you tell'em Grond!

Do you guys follow me around looking for a fight?

Im the new guy in town. Ive come to shake up this joint. You guys are getting lazy, and we all know the devil finds work for idle hands.

You're getting cosy with your easy-come easy-go movies and you've become too caught up in the impossible task of winning an argument with me. Relax boys. Take a quiet moment. Reread the books. Immerse yourselves in the beautiful language and the rich story line. Remember back to the days before this accursed film when you liked the novel called the Lord of the Rings.
breathe in. breathe out. mmmm. isnt that better? Uncle Jamesy will make it all better. I know you've been a silly boy but that's all over now. You know you've been naughty. There, there. It was all just a bad dream.

[Foe-Hammer]

Grond,Once again I will be civilly at odds with you Foe. We are not arguing that the movie wasn't successful. We're not arguing that the movie doesn't deserve to be successful. We're just arguing that it could have been better!! Your jabs are misplaced. After all, Thorin is simply responding to your challenge to right a script that includes more of the way things happened in the book and I think he's doing an admirable job. Don't be sour grapes about that.I am trying to engage in that same arguement, but I require proof that it is better. I have not jabbed at Thorin. After all, he's the only one with enough balls to back up his mouth with action. My opinion of Thorin's attempt is well documented and defending him against me means you didn't read all my posts.

But facts are facts, and as it is, the movie version is better. It captures the character of all the fellowship in a way that is consistant with the book without turning it into a boring narrative.

Besides, reading jamesy's response, it's clear he is only here to stir the **** and I gave him the response he deserved.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Foe-Hammer
...But facts are facts, and as it is, the movie version is better. It captures the character of all the fellowship in a way that is consistant with the book without turning it into a boring narrative...Foe, my problem is your statement above. "...But facts are facts, and as it is, the movie version is better." How would you know that? I am assuming by your definitive statement that you feel this is a fact instead of opinion. and without that addendum of in my opinion, you are on the attack and not participating in debate.

Therein lies my problem. State your opinions as opinions and we'll be okay. Otherwise, reveal to us why you are able to state it as fact. Are you a professional director, a critic, an actor? What gives you the awesome ability to tell us that something would be better on film? Just wondering?
:)

[Foe-Hammer]

Well, the fact that the movie has made almost $300 mil in 14 days, tells me that they did a pretty dang good job. It doesn't make any sense that he did a great job onthe entire movie except for the CoE scene. And if he was savy enough to make a great movie, don't you think he would have used a better version of the CoE if it was possible?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Foe-Hammer
Well, the fact that the movie has made almost $300 mil in 14 days, tells me that they did a pretty dang good job. It doesn't make any sense that he did a great job onthe entire movie except for the CoE scene. And if he was savy enough to make a great movie, don't you think he would have used a better version of the CoE if it was possible? Your problem Foe is that you state hypotheticals as fact. The only fact you've presented is that the movie grossed $300 million in two weeks. You haven't presented any facts that it would have done better or worse had the screenplay been changed... because you can't. If I were to follow that line of logic I could say.... Wait a minute... I will say it..

I can unequivocally tell you that had PJ done the scene the way Thorin put it forth in his screenplay, the movie would have grossed $350 million in two weeks. How's that for a definitive, hypothetical fact?

Foe, state facts as facts and keep your opinions as opinions. Just because you think it's so doesn't make it so and you have no idea how the movie would have done financially had it been written differently... all you have is an opinion.:(

[Foe-Hammer]

The facts are (again) that the movie made 300 mil in two weeks the way it is. I don't have to prove any other way would have been better or worse. That is the burden of those who think they could do a better version.

The difference is that I allow that those that can make 300 mil know how to write and direct scenes better than us and would have done so if it were possible.

[markrob]

300 MIL? Really Foe? That is fantasic! And the best part about it is we know at least 21 or so bucks of it came from Readwryt, Grey, and Thorin's pockets. Oh the joy. :p

[Foe-Hammer]

Yep

[Grond]

Don't forget $14 from Grond. (I've seen it twice). :)I'll probably see it again next week. (God I hate that movie):D I'm only going again to get a better perspective to argue with you guys.;)

[Thorin]

Just thought that with all the newbies to the forum the past three months, I'd resurrect this thread to get your opinion on my revamped screenplay scene....

initially, I was challenged to come up with a scene closer to the book because I disliked the way Jackson did his.....I also did another one on the Prancing Pony....I can resurrect that one as well....Enjoy and give me feedback!

[Rohansangel]

Great screenplay, Thorin! You should be a screenwriter :)

~The Angel of Rohan

[Ol'gaffer]

It's very good, nicely written. But IMHO it wouldn't work with as well as the PJ version. Atleast with normal audiences.

This is all speculation and guess work on my behalf, but I feel that normal audiences do not care to hear about messengers to the dwarves and dealings, what is needed to be said is that the ring is dangerous and there is little time. Then the fellowship has to be formed and gotten off on their journey, because at this point of the story, to have another scene with about 16 minutes of story telling and history of the ring, the audience would become bored with the story not moving along, also, even 16 minutes is a horrendously short time to condence a lot of info in, this was already shown in the Prologue sequence of FotR they crammed a lot of info into it for a introduction and still it was far from the complete history.

But having said that, it's a very nice work and you've obviously have taken a good deal of time making it.

We could use this thread as a screenplay section for alternate scenes in which people could post their own versions which they would have wanted to see rather than the ones in the movies..

[Thorin]

Way back in the good old days of the forum, we had many arguments between film defenders and purists. Right after the FoTR TE came out, Foe-Hammer basically said, "Put up or shut up" to the purists. I decided to try and re-do some scenes taking into account both movie medium and faithfulness to the book. I wanted to try and redo the parts that stray grossly from Tolkien and make you cringe with one liners and PJ's personal touch that screwed it up even more.

The result was this thread.

I also did "An Optional Screenplay / The Prancing Pony" but it seems to have been lost in the Void of TTF. :( It was redoing the scene where Frodo slips on the ring and meets Aragorn. It seems to be lost forever. Must have been deleted in the clean up that happened awhile back.

I thought I'd revive this thread for a few reasons:

1) Dwarves like recognition when they're not hoarding treasure :D
2) To allow the newbies and even the members who joined the last two years to comment on it (see 1)
3) To stimulate thinking on others parts to think of a scene from the movies that bothers them greatly and find a happy medium between book and movie and possibly write it over using the book.
4) To revive some of the dialogue that has seemed to slow down the last couple of months.

Enjoy!