Looking for someone to write with.

[Nóm]

There is something I have wanted to do for a while now. I've asked a couple people to write different things with me but none were interested, so I thought I'd start a thread here.

There are several things I'd like to work on eventually. The most urgent to me is the tale of the kinslaying of Alqualonde more from the point of view of the Teleri, and as a poem, not narrative. Now I'm scarcely a decent writer and often unable to write anything at all so my part might be slow going, but I believe two minds are more creative than one and can fuel the other. I was thinking perhaps we (my partner(s?) and I) would start out writing some bits, and then decide on which format or style to use. Exactly how we do this, I guess, will depend upon how the people involved prefer to write. For example I'd probably end up writing random bits and then work on glueing them together, where others might rpefer to write from beginning to end?

Anyone interested or have questions?

[Minuel Lasgalas]

There is something I have wanted to do for a while now. I've asked a couple people to write different things with me but none were interested, so I thought I'd start a thread here.

There are several things I'd like to work on eventually. The most urgent to me is the tale of the kinslaying of Alqualonde more from the point of view of the Teleri, and as a poem, not narrative. Now I'm scarcely a decent writer and often unable to write anything at all so my part might be slow going, but I believe two minds are more creative than one and can fuel the other. I was thinking perhaps we (my partner(s?) and I) would start out writing some bits, and then decide on which format or style to use. Exactly how we do this, I guess, will depend upon how the people involved prefer to write. For example I'd probably end up writing random bits and then work on glueing them together, where others might rpefer to write from beginning to end?

Anyone interested or have questions?

I'm kind of cramped for time these days, but it sounds tempting... tho' poetry construction would have to be really worked out so that the meter is close :) otherwise you get this bumpy thing [laughing]

Either way, I work at a newspaper and would be more than happy to help you proof your work... a second or third set of eyes is a blessing sometimes.

[Isthir]

I, too, am held within the confines of time, but am very interested. Count me in Nom!


-Isthir

[Manveru]

Hmm... seems no one has time these days;). Yeah, I won't be original utterring the words on my "time-availabilty", I guess, but this sounds so interesting (like every bit of master T's legend that wasn't developed...). I know there are better "weavers of words" hanging 'round here, but I'd gladly learn more of this matter... maybe I could work on some rhymes... anyway, good luck with this "project", Nom (and anyone who's going to join you). Should be a wonderful piece of art... looking forward to it.:)

[Isthir]

I have encountered a problem with this writing. A very simple one it is: Which pov of the Teleri shall we write this from? One that survived it? Olwë? Ossë? Ulmo?

-Isthir

[Nóm]

Thanks for your interest, I feared no one would want to do this.

As for point of view I was thinking it could be done in such a way that it seems like some nameless Teler wrote the thing years after surviving the Kinslaying. Not necessarily from his point of view at all times, but the people as a whole. It could maybe start out with a description of the Swan Haven and the mood of the day, when to their surpise up come the Noldor marching and armed, and then the King greets Feanor at his doors (or somehwere)... there should probably be some dialog (where we are able), and then it tells of the events as they unfold...


What do you guys think?

[Isthir]

Not a bad idea Nom, not bad at all. Though I will be delayed in my writings for work and sickness hinder me at the moment. But ever do I trudge on.

[Saermegil]

Hey, perhaps Im a bit young but would love to contribute. Although this kind of poetry is not my usual style, i'd like to try it. Eh, I never liked h/w anyway, so I will be able to make time if we are to co-operate.

[Isthir]

Thanks for your interest, I feared no one would want to do this.

As for point of view I was thinking it could be done in such a way that it seems like some nameless Teler wrote the thing years after surviving the Kinslaying. Not necessarily from his point of view at all times, but the people as a whole. It could maybe start out with a description of the Swan Haven and the mood of the day, when to their surpise up come the Noldor marching and armed, and then the King greets Feanor at his doors (or somehwere)... there should probably be some dialog (where we are able), and then it tells of the events as they unfold...


What do you guys think?
Perhaps something starting like:

After a night the story did unfold,
being unforseen and blindly untold.
The night before was that of a raven,
but the morning was fine in Swan Haven.
Awoken to the normal rush of waters
came forth our calm and happy fathers
to see what the new day would show,
and to feel Manwë's mighty wind blow.
To our suprise, and not to our horror,
we found our kin marching, the Noldor.

Tell me what you think so far?
-Isthir

[Isthir]

Or perhaps, you would rather something a bit more detailed?

-Isthir

[Nóm]

That is much like what I ha din mind, Isthir.

Awoken to the normal rush of waters
came forth our calm and happy fathers

I'm really happy with the sound of that especially.

to see what the new day would show,
and to feel Manwë's mighty wind blow.

I like the idea of a new day and Manwe's wind, but the wording sounds a little forced.

Maybe:
The stars twinkled high and bright in air clear,
a light that our gem strewed shores did mirror.
The winds of Manwe, from the West did not blow!
For the Valar still grieved - what would this day show?
But our friends to the west were mourning lost light,
and restless Noldor, unknown, prepared for flight.
The darkness had passed, now we sing on fair shores
But terror slew Finwe, Feanor's father at his doors.

Okay I was carried away. I guess in attempt to reword I changed the whole idea from feeling wind to there being no wind.

But if we want to include this, I'd suggest we add some more before introducing your last two lines... the coming of the Noldor.

Maybe give some more lines about Alqualonde that morning, and here and there insert something about Noldor, vanyar, Valar or Morgoth... mentions that will help compare Alqualonde and the Teleri (at this point little effected by Morgoth and Ungoliant) to those in Valinor who are still greiving or becoming angry and will set out to get vengence on Morgoth. Perhaps we could mentioned that is was Morgoth who spread a hidden poison among the Noldor... his lies. But all of this still unknown to the Teleri until after the fact. So far they'd only know there was a short time of darkness, then winds came and blew the darkness away, and now Valinor is grieving. perhaps we could mention more about their sparkling shores... definantly mention the ships. Can also mention sea birds, pearls (which they gathered) or silver which they worked with of all metals. But a mention of the Telerin pearls or silversmith would be a good time to bring up the well-known Silmarils of Feanor. In hindsight our writer will know Morgoth took them.

And anyone who is reading this, feel free to rework what I posted.

[Saermegil]

Also something else; what about the poet? Is he going to introduce himself, and then remember back? Do we know anything about hiim? His lineage? Maybe we could have him as a relative of one of tolkien's characters.

[Lantarion]

This seems like a fantastic idea, Nóm!! :D
These opening lines drifting about look really great atmosphere-wise, but perhaps they should be a little more mystical? These direct references to Manwë, the Valar and other aspects, as well as the tense ("what would this day show?", interrogative lines in this kind of narrative poetry is not recommendable) are a little too obvious; and the choice of words should be an art, we should choose words which create effects that we seek instead of just filling space in telling the story. Poetic and auditory tools should be used, like assonance (many similar sounds in a row creating a desired effect), skilled rhyming, rhythm etc. And although these present lines do look very promising and have a real mythical nature aobut them, the beat or metre is very inconsistant; I find that the metre Shakespeare uses, the iambic pentameter, is a good system for this sort of poetry. It means that the stress is on every other syllable, with ten syllables in a line (and therefore five stressed), for example:

'The violent winds did hearth and harbour test'

Hehe that doesn't sound half bad. :D But you see my point, there needs to be something consistant in this, and the iambic pentameter would offer that.

And I think an important thing would also be that the speaker were not so personally involved; the Teler-point of view can be maintained without his direct comment or involvement in the poem itself. I think impersonality, use of metaphors and a sort of indirect approach would be most effective here. And when the killing begins, the rhythm could either be held the same and only the assonance and style changed to fit the deeds (with an emotion like grief, anger or fear emphasized).

As for the Teler-minstrel himself, I'd offer Eäranto, Arvenë or Ciryalindo as names for him (they all have sea- or sailing-elements in them).. I think the tragicness, mixed with anger, should be emphasized if he was, say, a close friend of Amras or Celegorm, or one of the sons of Fëanor.


How does this sound? :)

EDIT: In fact while I'm still in the mood I think I'll take a shot at rewording that passage of your, Nóm, if you don't mind. ;) It'll be in the pentameter, but don't pause or halt the diction at the stressed syllables.


The eyes, those pearls of darkened heavens bles't
Did glow and dance, and 'pon our shores took rest
No breath nor gust did from the West take part
And all our lords still wept with weary heart
Yet long hence fled that mournéd light had passed
And brother-smiths in anger arms amassed
Our joy thus shadow-free was bright but brief
For Finwë fallen left a ling'ring grief


I think it sounds pretty good, but please suggest any changes you want. I tried to keep it a little mysterious, and not too obviously Silmarillion-based. The mention of Finwë was fitting though, I think, because we can't keep making allusions throgh the whole poem! :D
Hmm I think I'll work on this some more, I had forgotten how fun the Shakespearean metre was to work with! :D

[Nóm]

OMG!! Lantarion is here!!

You know, how about you all write the thing while I sit here and comment on it? hehe! Your bit is so much better than mine that it becomes funny if you think about it long enough. :D

It needs to have a pattern for rhyming and syllables. I'll see what others think... especially Isthir since he/she submitted something first. Whether or not we use this iamb...pent-whatever doesn't matter so much to me... so long as we have something consistant. I do like the 10 syllable lines though, and 10 was originally what I had in mind. (I had wrote a bit a few weeks back.)

Thanks a lot Lantarion. I hope that wont be your last visit. :D

[Lantarion]

Aaa I am appreciated! :D
Thanks; and yes I'll be around. It's nice to put some of my hard literary training to practical use.. :rolleyes:

[Isthir]

I do like iambic pentameter very much, though most of my writings go off a rhythm set by the first few lines. I see it much as a composition, not a literary work, as I do not think that ancient bards set a certain style for their songs and poetry, they just wrote what felt natural and fit to the story they were attempting to convey. I may be wrong in that but it makes logical sense to me. I also agree that the words should have a hint of mystery to them, but not completly oblivious to the point. As for that which I posted it was written at the time of the posting and hastily, for I wished for this project to get underway as soon as possible.

I also believe that we should research the Kinslaying in full before making further jests of this writting. It would be vitally important to know what Swan Haven looked like and consisted of on a geometric scale, the events that led up to the slaying, what truly happened, words exchanged, and the Pantheon of the Teleri. All this would be known to a surviver (save, perhaps the exchangement of words) and would be a nice way to add depth to the poem/song. This thought occured to me in the middle of last night and I began researching the topic.

From The Book of Lost Tales 1, Chapter 7-The Flight of the Nodoli:
Now Swanhaven was like a bason of quiet waters, save that towards the eastward and the seas the ring of rocks that enclosed it sank somewhat, and there did the sea pierce through, so that there was a mighty arch of living stone. So great was this that save of the mightiest ships two might pass therethrough, one going out maybe and another seeking inward to the quiet blue waters of the haven, nor would the mast-tops come nigh to grazing on the rock. Not much of the light of the Trees came thither aforetime by reason of the wall, wherefore was it lit ever with a ring of lamps of gold, and lanterns there were too of many colours tokening the wharves and landings of the different houses; but through the arch the pale waters of the Shadowy Seas might distantly be glimpsed, lit faintly with the shining of the Trees.
I believe that answers my question of a description of Swanhaven. Most of the rest is contained in that same chapter, save the Pantheon. Furthermore, the Pantheon is not a requirement (in my eyes anyways) but would provide those Valar that a Teleri would have in common usage. Perhaps we should begin, as already suggested, with a description of that faithful day but in details that describe its beauty?

-Isthir

[Nóm]

The only thing I dislike about what Lantarion suggests is that there is stress on every-other syllable, and I think this is a little too aggressive for the subject matter? hehe... in fact I never knew it was suppose to be read that way . *shrugs*

But I would like to have some kind of rhythm whether convential or not. I know nothing to be honest, about poety.. yes nothing, and I'm sure we all have our own natural styles.. but we'll figure out how to make this work.

Isthir... I agree about looking at all that is published on the Teleri of Alqualonde, and agree that BoLT is where we should get our description. It is the best one avialable. As for the Valar I'd rather we stick with what we have later in The Silmarillion... but I'm not sure what you have in mind? But even given all the published texts on the matter we'll have a lot of inventing to do.

Quendi and Eldar in HoME 10 is a good source of information on Telerin. I think it would be good to include a couple Telerin words in this somewhere.

[Lantarion]

as I do not think that ancient bards set a certain style for their songs and poetry
Actually the 'ancient bards' or songwriters of our own world some thousand years ago would definately have had a rhythm, style and concrete literary basis for their odes and ballads, as they were intended to be sung and accompanied by various instruments. They were not called Bards for no reason, they were masters of both music and verse.
The only thing I dislike about what Lantarion suggests is that there is stress on every-other syllable, and I think this is a little too aggressive for the subject matter? hehe... in fact I never knew it was suppose to be read that way . *shrugs*
Well if you think about it (or rather if you don't thikn about it, while reading) this every-other syllable stress is very close to how we talk in everyday life anyway.. And that's one of the things I love about Shakespeare, his words are so poetic and stylistically beautiful, and yet there is a sense of 'normality'; because he wrote his plays for the common people, not some single class or sophisticated elite.
And it's funny that you find the pentameter 'aggressive'; I think the only way it could be perceived as harsh or too strong is if you view the words themselves in that light, or if you consciously speak them in an aggressive manner. I think it's a very fitting standard for rhythm in this type of poetry, but it is certainly not the only option! :)

Oh and what do you think of my name-suggestions for the Telerin bard? They are in Quenya, which would probably be the language that literary works were recorded and spoken in, even in Valinor.

[Isthir]

Actually the 'ancient bards' or songwriters of our own world some thousand years ago would definately have had a rhythm, style and concrete literary basis for their odes and ballads, as they were intended to be sung and accompanied by various instruments. They were not called Bards for no reason, they were masters of both music and verse.
Indeed they would have a rhythm, this I was not denying, but it would not be set such as iambic pentameter is. At least this is my belief, for I believe that these masters of words would have had a natural rhythm that would make a music unto itself so that the cordination of the music would be easier, more natural.

Oh and what do you think of my name-suggestions for the Telerin bard? They are in Quenya, which would probably be the language that literary works were recorded and spoken in, even in Valinor.
I do like the names for the Telerin bard, though I know not if it would be used in the composition, most likely not in my views.

-Isthir

[Saermegil]

In my opinion a great poem doesn't need a set rythm. Rythm can be substituted by images and description. Have you heard of Kavafy? His poem, Waiting For The Barbarians is thought to be one of the greatest poems he wrote and it sounds almost like normal text. But if a lot of persons contribute without a set rythm, each part is going to sound different.

[Isthir]

I have done a bit of thinking and would like to see the iambic style to remain throughout the writing, for it conforms easily to music and can be set in fours (which most music is written 4/4 or 6/8 time signatures). Pentameter was used in Beowolf,and many other highly recongnized works, very effectivly. I, however, see this as a constriction if to conform to music, or music to conform to it, for only certain numbers are divisable by both four and five. It is true that most of the earlier writtings were written in iamic pentameter and sets of four stanzas. *Shrugs* I guess I leave that up to the others.

-Isthir

[Aiwendil2]

Isthir wrote:
Pentameter was used in Beowolf,and many other highly recongnized works, very effectivly.

Sorry to jump in and nit-pick like this, but as a matter of fact, "Beowulf" was not written in iambic pentameter, nor in any of the various other metrical forms employed in modern English poetry. It was alliterative poetry (the same form used by Tolkien in, for example, the "Children of Hurin" and the songs of the Rohirrim) - and alliterative poetry is accentual; that is it does not have a strict pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables.

[Isthir]

*Strikes down a resource* Blast them for giving me false information!

Anywho, according to what was just told, I believe that we should not use pentameter *Shrugs* Too much thinking going on over here....

-Isthir

[Lantarion]

Exactly why shouldn't we use the pentameter? :confused:

[syongstar]

I am a musician,tell me what you want to say and I can transform them into rythym with rhyme or even set them to music ~~*~~

[Nóm]

Well... I don't know how to settle this.

To those who know about all this meter stuff... which would be most fitting of the Teleri (or just elves in general will work), do you imagine?

syongstar, your opinion on anything I post would be appreciated.

[Isthir]

Personally I feel that the elves are a race intune with Nature and would have songs that come naturally. Perhaps the Teleri would have something more flowing with rises and falls in dynamics, much like the Seas themselves. Just my thoughts.

Isthir

[Bethelarien]

I know I've not put in any comments yet, but here I go. Heh heh.

For one, I'd love to be a part of this, obviously since I'm replying. I'm in an obvious mood today. :D

For two, while it is true that Beowulf was not written in iambic pentameter (or any other distinguishable rhythm), keep in mind that it was written in old Anglo-Saxon, old English. Therefore, their mode of writing poetry was different than our modern concept of poetry is.

Take a look at modern poetry, or rather poetry from Shakespeare's day. All of the best poetry was written in the iambic pentameter.

I agree with Lanty that it should be in that form. It sounds more...rustic, more....Elvish, I guess. Elvish poetry would have, in my opinion, had a defined flow to it. Iambic pentameter gives it that.

[Lantarion]

Woah someone agrees with me. :D :rolleyes:
Well listen, what I'd like to have done is that somebody (namely Nóm as this whole thing was her idea, i.e. if it goes wrong we can all blame her :D) would write out a simplistic sort of skeleton for each stanza (I propose that each stanza be four couplets, i.e. 8 lines), in other words write a short eight-lined poem about some specific instance of the Kinslaying; perhaps before the actual killing, if this is to be along and diverse. And when it is written, we could all take a shot at rendering it into a style that we find befitting.
This skeleton-poem (what a chilling phrase! :eek: ) would not even need to rhyme, the idea is to set forth a very short part of the whole account in somewhat abstract langauge, which we will then mold and shape together.

What do you think? Nóm your previous poem was wonderfully inspirational, it was a real joy to read and alter, I would feel honoured to do it again! :D

[Nóm]

Hi Bethelarien! Glad you're joining us.

I like the idea of coming up with some skeletons. We can do some in that iambic pentameter, and anyone who wants to try anther style could do a skeleton for the style they have in mind. After the skeletons have been filled in or switched around and fixed up and sounding pretty we could vote on which style is better... maybe.

[Isthir]

Sounds good to me!

[Bethelarien]

Same here.

Although I should warn you, I'm not very good at poetry. In fact, I really suck at poetry. So.....you may not want to count on me writing anything too inspired.

[Lantarion]

Ok then! Nóm if you want you can put up a new mini-poem for us to interpret. :)
Heh, as long as you try it out and have fun at the same time it doesn't matter Beth! :)

[Lantarion]

Um, perhaps Nóm has forgotten about this? :o
Let's see if she remembers (I'll note her if she doesn't), this is her idea after all.