Round 1:Bethelarien (The Guild of Eruhini) vs Arvedui (The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil)

[Gil-Galad]

That is the thread for Round 1 of The Best of The best Tournament.

I would like to ask both debators to confirm their participation.The topic will be posted after the two debators are ready.

Good Luck

[Arvedui]

I am ready and waiting.

[Gil-Galad]

I will contact Bethelarien or her replacement Scatha.

[Bethelarien]

Never fear, Bethelarien the indomitable is here. :D I like that word. Indomitable. It sounds so lovely.

Bring it on.

[Gil-Galad]

The topic will be posted later tonight or tomorrow morning. :)

[Gil-Galad]

The topic is :

Who was to be blamed for the failure of Aldarion and Erendis' marriage, Aldarion or Erendis?


I hope that Arvedui and Beth are satisfied with the topic.

Bethelarien is the one who to chose a side in this round.

The debate will last for 10 days after her opening post.

Good Luck !

[Arvedui]

I'm not sure about this topic: it has been debated before. If possible, I would like to have a go at a 'fresh' one. But if my honourable opponent is OK with it, then I accept that.

[Bethelarien]

If the topic has been used before, then I agree with Arvedui. Probably not a good idea to re-use one. Sorry. :D

[Gil-Galad]

The topic was once discussed but not so much.
What is more,the topic is hidden at the moment by Gothmog so you will not be able to use it as a source of ideas and information :p

If both debators want I will leave the topic.Or I can change it if you want.

[Arvedui]

the topic is hidden at the moment by Gothmog so you will not be able to use it as a source of ideas and information That is NOT fair.:D (I bet I can find it, though...)

The only thing that I care about right now is that we get started. My time is very limited as of the end of next week (You'll get a PM about that, G-G).
I can live with the topic at hand. Pick your side, Beth.

[Gil-Galad]

We are waiting for Beth then.

You have 10 days after her opening post :)

Good Luck

[Bethelarien]

I would like to apologize for my delay in posting, but I ask my opponent as well as the judges to remember my current situation and also the fact that I cannot be online during the weekends either. Now, for the debate.

Who was to be blamed for the failure of Aldarion and Erendis' marriage, Aldarion or Erendis?

Aldarion was responsible for the failure of their marriage. Not only did he abandon his wife for huge stretches of time, but he also cut down the forests that she loved. Erendis showed great foresight in her long refusal to marry him, though in the end she was swayed.

Aldarion went on many long voyages; it had always been so with him. One of many lasted for six years at the time of their betrothal. He was selfish in this, not caring for the needs of his betrothed. Nearly all of his actions testify to his selfishness. He journeyed, seeing his wife little, caring nothing for anyone but himself. Is this the way a husband should behave?

Not only that, but he cut down many trees to use for his ships. His wife, Erendis, loved the forests and animals. Yet Aldarion even managed to spoil that, the tall trees eventually reminding Erendis of the masts of ships, causing a loathing for them. It is a cruel man indeed who would treat his wife this way.

...and there Aldarion made plain his desire for betrothal to Erendis; but now Erendis was reluctant...she feared now in her heart that in the war between herself and the Sea for the keeping of Aldarion she would not conquer.
I will not share my husband with the Lady Uinen.

He broke many promises to his wife, vowing he would return in, for example, two years; but he was gone for six. What kind of man keeps his wife waiting for that long? One who has no consideration for any other.

...A man shall not have two wives. You cannot wed the Sea, for you are affianced to Erendis.

Aldarion loved the Sea more than he loved his own wife. This caused bitterness between them and the failure of their relationship.

All quotes are taken from The Unfinished Tales, "Aldarion and Erendis" by J.R.R. Tolkien.

[Gil-Galad]

Don't worry Beth.

You have exactly 10days.

Good Luck!

[Arvedui]

And now it is my turn to ask for apology. Due to reasons beyond my control, I have been cut off from internett for a couple of days.. Hopefully, the connection remains stable at least long enough to post this...



My opponent have shown that Aldarion played a part in the failure of the marriage. We are all aware that he has some faults as every other human being, but those faults are not enough to place the responsibility of the failure of the marriage on his shoulders. That blame must be placed on the shoulders of Erendis.

My first argument is based on Erendis' continuous attempt at trying to change Aldarion from the man she initially fell in love with, to a man with interests that she desired. This is what is written concerning Erendis' first sight of Aldarion:Erendis looked upon Aldarion as he rode by, and for his beauty, and splendour of bearing she had eyes for little else. That splendour of bearing comes from Aldarion's confidence in himself, his self-esteem. He knows that he is not only the King's Heir, but he has shown that he is a man capable of accomplishing matters on his own.
Most of all, he knows that he can master the seas like no other Númenórean. Being aboard a ship is what he loves most of all. This is what Erendis wants him to turn away from.

And Aldarion never tried to hide his discomfort at the thought of being married. This exchange between Aldarion and his mother at Aldarion's first sight of Erendis show this:
Then Almarian said to him: "Must you depart again, Aldarion, my son? Is there nothing that will hold you in the fairest of all mortal lands?"
"Not yet," he answered; "but there are fairer things in Armenelos than a man could find elsewhere, even in the lands of the Eldar. But mariners are Men of two minds, at war with themselves; and the desire of the Sea still holds me." And this is Erendis' reaction when she heard this being said:
Erendis believed that these words were spoken also for her ears; and from that time her heart was turned wholly to Aldarion, though not in hope. [...]but Erendis deemed that Aldarion was too high. She clearly heard Aldarions saying that he was a Man of two minds, and that the desire of the Sea was still holding him. In fact, he never said that that desire had left him. He cannot be blamed for continuing to travel to Middle-earth. This was his desire, and also afterwards a 'political matter' because of the aid he gave to Gil-galad and other free peoples in their struggle against Sauron.

My second argument is linked with the first. Aldarion was the one that sacrificed most of his personal desires. He tried more to please Erendis, than she was willing to try to please him. This is shown already from the beginning, when Aldarion took Palarran out on its first journey:
At that time Aldarion first looked on Erendis with love; and he stood long in the stern looking back as Palarran passed out to sea. It is said that he hastened his return, and was gone less time than he had designed; and coming back he brought gifts for the Queen and the ladies of her house, but the richest gift he brought for Erendis, and that was a diamond. Already from that moment, Aldarion adjust his desire for the sea because of Erendis. And more was to come. Eighteen years he stayed in Númenor after that, mostly because of his love for Erendis. And even when he finally set out again, he had the love for Erendis in the back of his mind:
"Out of sight of land she will die!" he said. "Soon I shall die, if I see it longer. Then if we are too spend any years together I must go alone, and go soon!"
My third argument is that Aldarion never stopped loving Erendis, even through all their hardship. But Erendis stopped loving Aldarion at the firstmoment he set out to sea again after their marriage. She didn't even try to understand why he went away, or why he was away longer than he promised. If she had given Aldarion a chance to explain how matters were, then she probably would have seen his absence in a different light. She could very well have tried, but she was far more concerned with her own designs, wanting things to be ordered her way. Aldarion knew that he had been away for too long, but he was of a mind to try and redress that. Erendis never gave him any chance.

[Arvedui]

Bethelarien have mentioned the felling of trees as an important argument against Aldarion. The fact is that Aldarion did more to tend to the forests of Númenor than any other had ever done, as these quotes will show:
The work of forestry I took up, and I have been prudent in it; there will be more timber in Númenor ere my days end than there is under your sceptre. Said by Aldarion to Tar-Meneldur.
He found that there had been much felling of trees for building and the making of many things, but all was done without foresight, and little had been planted to replace what was taken; and he journeyed far and wide in Númenor to view the standing woods.And when he wooed Erendis, he stayed close to her,felling no trees, but setting himself to their planting only, and he found more contentment in those days than in any others of his life, though he did not know it until he looked back long after when old age was upon him. And later:There was now sufficient timber in Númenor (and that was chiefly owing to his prudence) And this is what is said concerning Aldarion's work as Master of Forests: Aldarion again gave most heed to the future, planting always where there was felling, and he had new woods set to grow where there was room, a free land that was suited to trees of different kind.***

Bethelarion also accuse Aldarion of not caring for the needs of Erendis. Maybe so, but what about how Erendis cared for the needs of Aldarion? And keep in mind that Aldarion was not just another ordinary guy. He was the King's Heir (and later became King). Being in that position, he had to always think about what was best for Númeor as a whole, and did not have the luxury that he could concentrate on himself and his betrothed alone. In fact, with the strength that Númenor represented, he thought of not only Númenor, but Middle-earth as well, being able to see further than his predecessors had done. Erendis did not see this. She only cared for Númenor, its sheep, its forests and her own satisfaction. Remeber this conversation on the Meneltarma:"Do you not love the Yôzâyan?" she said.
"I love it indeed," he answered, "though I think that you doubt it. For I think also of what it may be in time to come, and the hope and splendour of its people; and I believe that a gift should not lie idle in hoard."
But Erendis denied his words, saying: "Such gifts as come from the Valar, and through them from the One, are to be loved for themselves now, and in all nows. They are not given for barter, for more or for better. The Edain remain mortak Men, Aldarion, great though they be: and we cannot dwell in the time that is to come, lest we loose our now for a phantom of our own designs. This should be ample evidence as to how her mind worked.
Concerning Aldarion and his understanding of the wider world. This is shown in several places throughout the tale:
Aldarion was a man long-sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth; and whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of Númenor and the power of its kings; and he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion. And because of this, he came in contact with the Elves of Middle-earth, and Aldarion heard rumours of some lord in Middle-earth who hated the men of the ships. We, of course, know that this lord was no other than Sauron. So when Aldarion set out to pursuit his thoughts, how did Erendis react?Soon after the great ship set sail from Rómenna. Hirilondë he named it, Haven-finder, but it went from Númenor without the blessing of Tar-Meneldur; and Erendis was not at the harbour to set the green Bough of Return, nor did she send. Aldarion's face was dark and troubled as he stood at the prow of Hirilondë, where the wife of his captain had set a great branch of oiolairë. Is that the way to treat your husband, and the King to be? I don't think so. Erendis should have given more thought to her role as the wife of the King's Heir. I can understand that she was angry because Aldarion left her an Ancalimë so soon. But she should have 'played her part' so that what was to become later could have been avoided. I think that there is no doubt that this was one reason to why Aldarion was treated the way he was when he arrived in Númenor belated:Aldarion came back to Rómenna on the fourth day after Hirilondë had returned to haven. He was waystained and weary, and went at once to Eämbar, upon which he now intended to dwell. By that time, as he found to his embitterment, many tongues were already wagging in the city. and his reaction when talking with his father show how deep that hurt him.I will use my days to some purpose, elsewhere, where I am not scorned, more welcome in honour. But of course, before this Tar-Meneldur had recognized the importance of Aldarion's travels, and that he is best fit to care for Númenor and the troubles of Middle-earth:Meneldur let the parchment fall into his lap. Great clouds borne upon a wind out of the East brought darkness early, and the tall candles at his side seemed to dwindle in the gloom that filled his chamber.
"May Eru call me before such a time comes!" he cried aloud. Then to himself he said: "Alas! that his pride and my coolness have kept our minds apart so long. But sooner now than I had resolved it will be the course of wisdom to resign the Sceptre to him. For these things are beyond my reach. It takes a great man to come to such a conclution. And he even thought that his son was greater than himself.
And thought became action:Therefore: first for the honour of his well-beloved son; and second for the better direction of the realm in courses which his son more clearly understands, the King has resolved: that he will forthwith resign the Sceptre to his son, who shall now become Tar-Aldarion, the King He not only recognize that Aldarion is better fit to rule Númenor, but he also makes it public that he is, which his explanation shows:"This," said Meneldur, "when it is proclaimed, will make known to all my thought concerning this present pass. It will raise you above scorn; and it will set free your powers so that other losses may seem more easy to endure. Did Erendis understand this? No!When news came to Emerië of the proclamation of the decree Erendis was dismayed; for she read therein a rebuke by the King in whose favour she had trusted. In this she saw truly, but that anything else of greater import lay behind she did not conceive. Again we see proof that Erendis only cares about herself, and that she have failed completely in attempting to even try to understand the man that she fell in love with.

[Arvedui]

As I sted at the end of my first post, Aldarion continued to love Erendis, while her love for him died when he set out on a journey when Ancalimë was four years old. I think that it is fitting that I should back up such a statement with quotes so that Beth can see why I think so. First, I want to attract attention to how both of them treated the wedding-gift they got from the Elves.One morning soon after Erendis came to Emerië she awoke to the song of birds, and there on the sill of her window were the Elven-birds that long had dwelt in her garden in Armenelos, but which she had left behind forgotten. "Sweet fools, fly away!" she said. "This is no place for such joy as yours."
Then their song ceased, and they flew up over the trees; thrice they wheeled above the roofs, and then they went away westward. That evening they settled upon the sill of the chamber in the house of her father, where she had lain with Aldarion on their way from the feast in Andúnië; and there Núneth and Beregar found them on the morning of the next day. But when Núneth held out her hands to them they flew steeply up and fled away, and she watched them until they were specks in the sunlight, speeding to the sea, back to the land whence they came. Her mother immediately understood what this ment, of course:"He has goen again, then, and left her," said Núneth.
"Then why has she not sent news?" said Beregar. "Or why has she not come home?"
"She has sent news enough," said Núneth. "For she dismissed the Elven-birds, and that was ill done. It bodes no good. Why, why, my daughter?Surely you knew what you must face? But let her alone, Beregar, wherever she may be. This is her home no longer, and she will not be healed here. He will come back. And then may the Valar send her wisdom - or guile, at the least!" A very interesting and rather harsh judgement for a mother to fell over her daughter, isn't it?
But how did Aldarion treat his wedding-present? After having been at Erendis' house and been treated rather badly, he went back to Rómenna.On the next day he gathered men in Rómenna and brought them to Armenelos. there he bade some fell all the trees, save one, in his garden, and take them to the shipyards; others he commanded to raze his house to the ground. the white Elven-tree alone he spared; and when the woodcutters where gone he looked at it, standing amid the desolation, and he saw for the first time that it was in itself beautiful In its slow Elven growth it was yet but twelve feet high, straight, slender, youthful, now budded with its winter flowers upon upheld braches pointing to the sky. It recalled to him his daughter, and he said: "I will call you also Ancalimë. May you and she stand so long in life, unbent by will or wind, and unclipped!" So this show a rather different way of treating their respective wedding-presents. Aldarion preserved his, and came to recognize its inherent beauty; exactly why the Elves cherished it. Erendis sent her present away.

***

Both Erendis and Aldarion loved eachother in the beginning, no doubt about that. But Erendis never accepted what Aldarion really was. It is almost as if she wanted to marry her own image of what she thought Aldarion should be, rather than accepting reality. take a look at her thoughts after having given birth to Ancalimë:In heart Erendis was glad, for she thought: "Surely now Aldarion will desire a son, to be his heir, and he will abide with me long yet." I find that to be a strange set of thoughts having just become a mother: not rejoicing your newborn child, but scheming how to tame your husband!
Of course these thought backfired when Aldarion went on his journey: All that day Erendis sat in her chamber alone, grieving; but deeper in her heart she felt a new pain of cold anger, and her love of Aldarion was wounded to the quick. So much for wanting to marry someone: at the first sign of any challenge, the love dies and turns to cold anger.
Of course, things turned to the worse when Aldarion was away longer than he had promised, and she met him with cold anger and treated him with contempt in her own house, and Aldarion became the talk of the land as previously shown. But even after all of this, Aldarion still loved Erendis:
To her at least I spoke long and often: to cold ears uncomprehending. As well might a truant boy talk of tree-climbing to a nurse anxious only about the tearing of clothes and the due time of meals! I love her, or I should care less. And later when Erendis had given her reply to the King's request that she should come to Armenelos:It is far below my hope of her. She has dwindeled; and if I have wrought this, then black is my blame. But do the large shrink in adversity? This was not the way, not even in hate or revenge! She should have demanded that a great house be preparred for her, called for a Queen's escort, and come back to Armenelos with her beauty adorned, royally, with the star on her brow; then well nigh all the Isle of Númenor she might have bewitched to her part, and made me seem madman and churl. The Valar be my witness, I would rather have it so: rather a beautiful Queen to thwart me and flout me, than freedom to rule while the Lady Elestirnë falls down dim into her own twilight. I think that this show perfectly well how much Aldarion was willing to go through, to have Erendis by his side. If only Erendis had been willing to go through 10% of that, the marriage could have continued. Unfortunately, she was never willing to bend her stiff neck, and sought confrontation rather than cooperation. That is how she was: All or nothing. And nothing was what she got.

[Arvedui]

This is a bit weird, posting several times in a row, without my honourable opponent having time to post in between. But I have full understanding for your situation. After all, I am running out of time, myself...

The topic at hand is:
Who was to be blamed for the failure of Aldarion and Erendis' marriage, Aldarion or Erendis?

Erendis must bear the responsibility for the failing of their marriage. There are a number of reasons for this:

1) She failed to understand who Aldarion was, and comprehend his needs and desires. Instead, she wanted Aldarion to become her image of him. She wanted Aldarion to give up his main passion and desire, the journeying at sea, and instead to remain in Númenor.

2) She never bothered to try to understand her husband. As Aldarion said:To her at least I spoke long and often: to cold ears uncomprehending. Aldarion told her straightaway how he also thought of the future, and the needs of the Númenoreans in times to come. but Arendis refused his words.

3) She failed to act as a coming queen and to understand the important part she had to play as the wife of the King's Heir. Instead, because of her, Aldarion was the "talk of the town," leading him to feel 'scorned' among his own people, the people he should be the leader of.

4) She tried her best to wipe the memory of Aldarion away from the mind of her daughter. This was the more worse because Ancalimë would become the only heir after Aldarion. This is mainly because of:

5) Erendis gave up too quickly. Aldarion didn't act as she had hoped, and her reaction was that love instantly died. I don't think that that is an example of rational behavior. And what is more: Most married couples experience that the love that brought them together in the first place, cools off after a time, but it is still a bond of affection and friendship that makes it possible for them to keep living together as long as they try!
Erendis did not try. When Aldarion returned from the journey after Ancalimë was four years old, he wanted to come back to Erendis. As he said to Tar-Meneldur, he hoped to redress his relationship with Erendis. But Erendis wouldn't even give him a chance. And we are told how much Aldarion would have been willing to undergo of humiliation to keep having Erendis at his side. Erendis was totally unable to compromise about anything.

My opponent have fielded two arguments against Aldarion. I will also sum up my arguments against them. Aldarion was not to blame, because:

1) He made sure that more trees were planted than what was hewn.

2) His journeys were important because he made important connections with the Elves in Middle-earth. The map of Middle-earth could have looked very different after Sauron's advance into Eriador if Aldarion had not journeyed wide and far. It is a big difference if the contact is established between the Elves and some accidental Númenorean, or if it established between the Elves or the King to come.

3) His journeys were important because he was thinking of the needs of the Númenoreans in the times to come. IMO, it is important that a ruler have the ability to look beyond his own time. Aldarion did this.


*****

That's all from me, good luck to the judges. Thank you to the host for providing an interesting topic.
(And Beth, maybe we can try it again when both of us have a bit more time on our hands. I hope that your situation allows you to fire off some of those killing arguments I know that you are capable of, even if it may mean that I might loose.)

[Gil-Galad]

The End of that Round is coming so I would like to remind Bethelarien and Arvedui that after 03-18-2004, 07:42 PM GMT no posts will be considered valid.

:)

[Bethelarien]

I, too, wish I had had more time. But perhaps I can at least put up a good fight.

One last time, the question:
Who was to be blamed for the failure of Aldarion and Erendis' marriage, Aldarion or Erendis?

The blame for the failed marriage lies largely on Aldarion. Several reasons are as follows:

1) He disregarded Erendis's needs and wants, holding himself more important than the woman he claimed to love.
But Aldarion wooed Erendis in earnest, and wherever she went he would go;...
"I will not share my husband with the Lady Uinen," said Erendis.
"That is a twisted saying," said Aldarion. "As well might I say that I would not share my wife with the Lord Orome of Forests, because she loves trees that grow wild."
"Indeed you would not," said Erendis; "for you would fell any wood as a gift to Uinen, if you had a mind."
Aldarion, though he loves Erendis, holds his love of the sea more important that Erendis's love for the trees--he never denies Erendis's claim that he would cut down any wood, even though he knows how it would hurt Erendis. His complete disregard for his wife's interests shows a part of his responsibility in their failed marriage.

2) Aldarion, the King's son and Heir, had no need to sail save for his own desire to do so, and he refused to sacrifice this for the good of the marriage.
"The King's Heir is not a mariner by trade, nor is he under necessity."
"There are other needs than livelihood that drive a man," said Aldarion. "And there are yet many years to spare."
"Nay, nay," said Meneldur, "you take your grace for granted: Erendis has shorter hope than you, and her years wane swifter. She is not of the line of Elros; and she has loved you now many years."
Aldarion's own father, the king, told him straightforwardly that he had no need to go sailing. Aldarion replied with the usual spoiled-child's whine "But Daddy, I want to!" His want to sail overtook all else, even his love for his wife.

3) He left several times, against the will of not only his betrothed (and later wife), but also his father and mother.
But now Meneldur forbade his going; and Aldarion, before the winter was fully gone, set sail with a fleet of seven ships and the greater part of the Venturers in defiance of the King.
Six years and more passed away before Aldarion returned to Numenor. He found even Almarian the Queen colder in welcome, and the Venturers were fallen out of esteem; for...he had treated Erendis ill.
"Come Erendis!" he said. "Eight years I have stayed. You cannot bind for ever in soft bonds the son of the King, of the blood of Tuor and Earendil!...Two years! Two years is all that I ask!"
But Erendis answered: "Say rather: 'Two years I will take, whether you will or no.' Take two years, then! But no more. A King's son of the blood of Earendil should also be a man of his word."
Many times he left against the will of his family. The voyage of which Erendis is speaking in the quote above, he asked for two years, which she reluctantly consented to. He was gone for more than five years. Not only did he leave his family, but he broke his word. How can a woman trust a man who does not keep his word? Without trust there is no love, as expressed by such famous writers as Shakespeare and Chaucer. This is the greatest factor in the failure of Erendis and Aldarion's marriage.

My honourable opponent has expressed the opinion that Aldarion sailed as he did for the good of the future of Numenor. Naturally, I disagree. Never does he tell Erendis "Sweetheart, I have to go. It may save Numenor in the future." Or "Honey, I love you, but I have to go set up colonies in new lands for my people." Or "Darling, I'm going to establish Numenor on the continent so we can save the Elves, although eventually one of my descendants will be stupid and bring The Enemy back here, causing the downfall of my people." Nope, I don't think he said that. He focused entirely on himself. "Erendis, lovey, I'm going to die if I don't sail." Yeah. Sure. Once again, we see the spoiled child come out in his incessant whining. No wonder she stopped loving him. How could a mature woman love a man that acts like a two-year-old having a temper tantrum?

Erendis was not trying to make Aldarion into her image of him, she merely wanted her husband with her. How is that wrong? What loving wife wouldn't want to be with her husband? Instead of understanding this, Aldarion focused on sailing, abandoning his wife and young daughter for years at a time, including some of Ancalime's most formative years. What a great father, to leave his four year old daughter and not return until she's nine. Impressive.

Erendis did continue to love him, and her love was rekindled all the more in her old age. She even faced her fear of the water and sailed out to meet him, causing her own death by drowning. So she disregarded her frailties and sacrificed, ultimately, her own life for the love of a husband who no longer cared for her.

************************************************** ********
It was lovely debating with you, Arvedui, though I wish I had had more time. No doubt our next debate will be even better. And I, as well, thank Gil-galad for hosting, and the judges in advance. I pity you having to read Arvedui's insanely long posts. ;)

[Gil-Galad]

I would like to thank Arvedui and Bethelarien.

It was a pleasure to be your host.


Debate is closed. :)