Round 1:The-Elf-Herself (The Guild of Outcasts) vs Niniel (The Guild of Periaur)

[Gothmog]

This is the thread for the first round debate between GoO and GoP.

As Eriol is away he has asked me to assist in his dutes by hosting this round of the tournament. I will not be involved in the judging of the debate.

Can the debators for the Guild of Outcasts and the Guild of Periaur please post to confirm they are ready to debate.

The topic will be given after both have posted.

Thank you. :)

[The-Elf-Herself]

Aye aye! Jam is here and ready for a good debate. :)

[Gil-Galad]

It seems that Wonks has disappeared.
I would like to ask Niniel to replace her ASAP.

[Niniel]

Reporting!!! Bring it on!

[Gil-Galad]

Gothmog will post the topic,because he is the Host of this Round.

I have one more question,Niniel.It seems that Wonks is not offline,so you will participate as Representative of GoP or as replacement of the Representative.If you participate as replacement,you should know that you are allowed to take part only in three rounds.Think about it,because if Wonks is offline longer time GoP will be in difficult situation.

[Niniel]

Okay, I see. Well, if Wonks doesn't show up at all, I suppose we should either name me the representative and pick another replacement, or choose another representative and let me be the replacement. Is that allowed? We will need to discuss it among the Periaur.

[Gothmog]

We will leave the discussion about your exact position in the tournament for another time. :)

Now to the debate question.

We all know that there was great animosity between the Elves and the Dwarves. Each race blamed the other for this. So your challenge is to debate
"Who was most to blame for the strife between them. The Elves or the Dwarves"

The choice of side goes to The-Elf-Herself of the Guild of Outcasts.

You have 10 days from her opening post. Good luck and have fun. :)

[Wonko The Sane]

I have not disappeared. I am here...
It took me a while to find this thread.
Aulë only brought it to my attention last night.

I don't think you waited long enough before you declared me dead!!!

Has the debate started? Is it too late? Is Niniel definitely taking over for me?

*Humph*

[Gil-Galad]

Well,you should decide "in private" who will be the representative and the replacement.
Please do it and let me know it in private message.ASAP

[The-Elf-Herself]

*decides to delay her opening post until she knows who in fact she is debating against* That is, if nobody minds...

[Gil-Galad]

I suppose it should be Wonks,since she is back.

So,don't worry,you can post your opening post .

[Gothmog]

No, I would prefer to wait until it is certain who is debating. I therefore await conformation from the Guild of Periaur as to who is representing them in this debate.

[Niniel]

Wonks hasn't answered my PM yet, so I'll do it. Elf, go ahead!

[Gothmog]

Thank you Niniel, Let the debate commence. :)

[The-Elf-Herself]

Alright, here goes! First, I have state one obvious fact:

Everyone knows that the Dwarves and Elves were fated to have strife from the getgo, what with eager beaver Aule going ahead and creating the dwarves all by his lonesome. So really we all get to blame him. :p

However, I will argue that the Elves were the most to blame for the strife, because they acted in ways that struck me as far more stupid than anything the mortal dwarves could dream of. In the First Age of Arda, while the friendship of certain individuals from among the Eldar with the Dwarves was strong, we learn from the Silmarillion that,

Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; but at that time those griefs that lay between them had not yet come to pass.

I will endeavor to prove that in both the events referred to in the text and others, the greater portion of the fault fell upon on the Elves. While the Dwarves were

A warlike race of old...(that) would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin

this was a part of their mysterious psyches, that few knew about since frankly the Dwarves would rather not tell anybody. However, the unfavorable traits Elves displayed in these events were by and large below their kindred's standards and therefore inexcusable. Bluntly, they should have known better.

[Niniel]

I will argue the Dwarves were more to blame in the strife between Elves and Dwarves.
This was already unavoidable from their very beginning. The Dwarves were created by Aulë, not as the Children of Ilúvatar. In the Music of the Ainur, all the races (Ainur, Elves and Men, and races derived from them, such as Hobbits and Orcs) had a certain role to play. The Dwarves had no purpose in Eä; they were an anomaly from the moment they came into being. This causes- probably unknown to both Elves and Dwarves- a certain idea of the Dwarves not belonging in Arda. The Elves had no idea of what the Dwarves' purpose was, nor their fate after death, which made them mysterious, and a bit feared by the Elves. All this was not done wilfully by the Dwarves, yet their very existence proved to be a cause of unrest.
The Dwarves were already mysterious by their origin, but they added to this by their secretive behaviour. They had their own language which they didn't teach to other races, and they lived in hidden caves. This was all not very welcoming to other races; it made sure the Dwarves continued to be mysterious and thus feared- it is universal that someone we don't know, we don't trust. Thus the Elves could never fully trust the Dwarves.
The Dwarves were happy not to be associated too closely to other races; they kept to themselves, unless they could gain profit from contact with others. Especially the Petty-Dwarves were downright hostile to all others; as we can see in the encounter of Mîm and Túrin.
The attack of the Dwarves on Menegroth was of course the reason for the real animosity that existed between Elves and Dwarves. Of course the Elves (Thingol) were to blame as well; but the real cause of the war was the Dwarves foolish demand to keep the Nauglamír. They had agreed to fix a Silmaril in the necklace for Thingol, and only afterwards they claimed it for their own. Thingol was right to remove them from his realm. The Dwarves were driven by their desire for the Silmaril to attack Doriath, and utterly destroy it and kill Thingol. They could have done with less slaughter; they could first have sent an official ambassador to negotiate about the problem, and if war had proven to be necessary they needn't have destroyed Doriath. They knew that this attack would be a cause for animosity between them and the Elves for years, and they knew that Morgoth would be free to attack Middle-Earth if the Elves and Dwarves wouldn't be allies. So in fact they were responsible for the defeat of Elves and Men (who had nothing to do with anything) to Morgoth.

[The-Elf-Herself]

This was already unavoidable from their very beginning. The Dwarves were created by Aulë, not as the Children of Ilúvatar. In the Music of the Ainur, all the races (Ainur, Elves and Men, and races derived from them, such as Hobbits and Orcs) had a certain role to play. The Dwarves had no purpose in Eä; they were an anomaly from the moment they came into being.

Agreed, but Eru did give Aule's work a 'place therein'. While they were not originally intended, once made he did not unmake them, but let them have a part in the Music as it went forth. It may not have been the most harmonious part to play, but they did have one.

This causes- probably unknown to both Elves and Dwarves- a certain idea of the Dwarves not belonging in Arda. The Elves had no idea of what the Dwarves' purpose was, nor their fate after death, which made them mysterious, and a bit feared by the Elves. All this was not done wilfully by the Dwarves, yet their very existence proved to be a cause of unrest.

Yes, but I would consider that a problem of the Elves, since the Dwarves were created in an unorthodox manner, whether the Elves liked or not, so that was something they(the Elves) had to deal with. I believe in some ways this unrest was for the better; certainly Menegroth and Nargothrand would never have been so beautiful had Dwarves not had a large part in their construction.

The Dwarves were already mysterious by their origin, but they added to this by their secretive behaviour. They had their own language which they didn't teach to other races, and they lived in hidden caves.

Actually, the Dwarves did teach a few Elves their language, precious few, but still. Also, Elves weren't exactly eager to learn, they thought the tongue 'cumbersome and unlovely' and I think were just as happy the Dwarves were more willing to learn a form of elvish. Heck, I think the Elves may have thought that it was considerate of the Dwarves to go out of their way to learn someone else's tongue; it was only the evilly suspicious sorts that got all nervous. As for the caves, well, caves/mountains were THE place to mine and wouldn't you figure that they'd want live where they worked? Seems a matter of convenience to me. And the Elves knew the rough location of their main joints, after all, they gave them prettified names in their own cool language; and true, not many Elves were invited to these mysterious abodes, but considering their own racial dislike of cramp, underground places lacking greenery, I don't think many of them truly wanted to go there.

This was all not very welcoming to other races; it made sure the Dwarves continued to be mysterious and thus feared- it is universal that someone we don't know, we don't trust. Thus the Elves could never fully trust the Dwarves.

I hardly think the Elves feared them, some may have been a bit suspicious and certain distrustful, but fear is definitely too strong a word. Again, the Elves were getting their own noses bent because the Dwarves were kindly willing to come to them to work and willing to learn their language and not burden them with the unnecessary details of their own life! ;)

The Dwarves were happy not to be associated too closely to other races; they kept to themselves, unless they could gain profit from contact with others. Especially the Petty-Dwarves were downright hostile to all others; as we can see in the encounter of Mîm and Túrin.

Ummm, the Petty-Dwarves had good reason for their hostility:

'Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were'

And did these Elves decide to be smart and check out what they were? Nope!

'and they hunted them, and slew them'

This Dwarves already had a chip on their shoulders because of getting kicked out of their home cities as riffraff, so they're not the best representatives of Dwarves, but even so, to get slaughtered like animals by a bunch of poncy Elves just because the Elves couldn't be bothered to figure out they were sentient is enough to give anyone a grudge.


The attack of the Dwarves on Menegroth was of course the reason for the real animosity that existed between Elves and Dwarves. Of course the Elves (Thingol) were to blame as well; but the real cause of the war was the Dwarves foolish demand to keep the Nauglamír. They had agreed to fix a Silmaril in the necklace for Thingol, and only afterwards they claimed it for their own. Thingol was right to remove them from his realm. The Dwarves were driven by their desire for the Silmaril to attack Doriath, and utterly destroy it and kill Thingol.

Okay, first of all, Thingol might've known better; these were beings who were devoted to mining and crafting of gems and metals, it probably wasn't the smartest idea to let them have at one of three fabulously gorgeous gems that already had caused too much trouble. However, I digress. Anyway, figure this from the Dwarves perspective: they were busy working on this annoyingly beautiful gem, with the King looking over their shoulders every moment to make sure it was done right and then when they mention about how some cursed guy stole it from Nargothrand, Thingol gets all haughty and goes off insulting them. By the way, Thingol didn't have a chance to 'remove them from his realm'; they killed him right in their workshops in Menegroth.

They could have done with less slaughter; they could first have sent an official ambassador to negotiate about the problem, and if war had proven to be necessary they needn't have destroyed Doriath. They knew that this attack would be a cause for animosity between them and the Elves for years, and they knew that Morgoth would be free to attack Middle-Earth if the Elves and Dwarves wouldn't be allies. So in fact they were responsible for the defeat of Elves and Men (who had nothing to do with anything) to Morgoth.

Well, the Dwarves of Nogrod weren't exactly the level-headed type and in fact, the Dwarves of Belegost 'sought to dissuade them from their purposes; but their counsel was unavailing'. As for the idea that they had some kind of foresight about how this would put them and the Elves in bad blood with each other, they were screaming vengeance for the death of their craftsmen and weren't even thinking about the ramifications of their actions. By the way, it's not true that this was the be-all and end-all of elf/dwarf friendships: I believe their greatest alliance in crafts was Eregion/Kazad-dhum an Age later. Also, one could also blame the stupid gems that everyone was going haywire over and that started the whole mess, but I digress again. As for the defeat of Elves and Men, that's highly debatable, as there were a number of factors in that. Also, while the Dwarves of Belegost were in fact quite helpful in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, it seems that some groups of Dwarves were interested in self-preservation to begin with; unless the enemy's coming after you, why should you go after the enemy?

So you see, the Dwarves were just being Dwarves for the most part; some went above and beyond the ideas of their race, some below, but most were just happy being Dwarves and mining away. Elves, however, had to stoop below their standards time and time again(the Noldor in the Kinslaying, Thingol going nuts over the Silmaril, the Sindar hunting down the Petty-Dwarves) to mess up relations between the Elves and Dwarves;the fact that there was that many Elves with stupid streaks definitely makes them bear the greater blame.

[Niniel]

In Letter 212 Tolkien describes how the Dwarves were created by Ilúvatar. He gave them a place in Creation: ‘Thy making I have taken up into my design.’ But he adds: ‘Nonetheless I will not suffer my design to be forestalled: thy children shall not awake before mine own.’ And Tolkien adds:’Nonetheless there has been for the most part little love between the Dwarves and the children of Ilúvatar.’ So they might have a role to play, but from the start it was a disharmonious role because of how they were created.
I believe in some ways this unrest was for the better; certainly Menegroth and Nargothrand would never have been so beautiful had Dwarves not had a large part in their construction.
I don't understand what you mean, can you explain?

You say that the Elves might have been happy that the Dwarves didn't want to teach them their language; maybe it's true that if they had had the choice of learning it, they would have chosen not to; but as it is, the Elves never got a chance to learn the Elves' language, because the Dwarves were just too suspicious and selfish to even want to teach it to them.

You say that the Petty Dwarves were not the best representations of Dwarves; true, but that also goes for the Elves; most of the points you have are about the Noldor especially, and not about the Elves in general. It would be wrong to generalize and count all the Elves as the same. Maybe the question of this debate is unclear, but I suppose that can't be helped.

About the subject of the destruction of Doriath, I still hold that the Dwarves should have been wiser. I can understand why they killed Thingol, they had a reason for it, even though it was stupid of them. But they should have been wiser and stopped there; they really had no reason to return to Doriath and destroy it. They could have known it would put an end to whatever good relations they had left with the Elves for a very long time; thereby causing both the geowth of Morgoth's power and the mutually beneficient trade the Dwarves and Elves had. It was only in the Second Age, about 1000 years later, that the Elves of Eregion had re-established their relationship with the Dwarves.

Also I would like to hear more of your arguments of why the Elves were more to blaim: in your first post you say I will endeavor to prove that in both the events referred to in the text and others, the greater portion of the fault fell upon on the Elves. but you haven't elaborated on that a lot as yet.

[The-Elf-Herself]

In Letter 212 Tolkien describes how the Dwarves were created by Ilúvatar. He gave them a place in Creation: ‘Thy making I have taken up into my design.’ But he adds: ‘Nonetheless I will not suffer my design to be forestalled: thy children shall not awake before mine own.’ And Tolkien adds:’Nonetheless there has been for the most part little love between the Dwarves and the children of Ilúvatar.’ So they might have a role to play, but from the start it was a disharmonious role because of how they were created.

Yes, but that's hardly the fault of the Dwarves themselves, you have to take that up with Aule their creator. They were merely being as they were fated to be, as Eru himself fortold they would be; in other words, it was an innate part of them. So you can't really say that merely fulfilling what Eru doomed them to be is enough cause for the greater blame of the strife between them and the Elves, since the Dwarves had no control over that; they were just being Dwarves.

I believe in some ways this unrest was for the better; certainly Menegroth and Nargothrand would never have been so beautiful had Dwarves not had a large part in their construction.

I don't understand what you mean, can you explain?

You focus on the negative aspects of the Dwarves, of the disharmony, while ignoring the good things the Dwarves did accomplish. The Dwarves of Belegost were essential in the building of Menegroth, and in this they 'laboured long and gladly for Thingol', working in good relations alongside the Elves and constructing the 'fairest dwelling of any king that has ever been east of the Sea.'

You say that the Elves might have been happy that the Dwarves didn't want to teach them their language; maybe it's true that if they had had the choice of learning it, they would have chosen not to; but as it is, the Elves never got a chance to learn the Elves' language, because the Dwarves were just too suspicious and selfish to even want to teach it to them.

Hmmm, that's not what I see here:

'But they could understand no word of the tongue of the Naugrim, which to their ears was cumbrous and unlovely; and few ever of the Eldar have achieved the mastery of it.'

Right off, the Elves had a dislike for the sound of the Dwarvish language in comparision to their own pretty speech, and apparently even those who wanted to learn it had a difficult time of it; it was simply that alien to their ears.

'But the Dwarves were swift to learn, and indeed were more willing to learn the Elven-tongue than to teach their own to those of alien race.'

I don't see anything selfish in that behavior, beyond an acceptable sense of secrecy that, while odd to the Elves, wasn't openly hostile. As we see, Dwarvish grated the nerves of the Eldar, so why would they seek out to learn it when the Dwarves didn't have a problem learning their language? What elf would want to learn a dwarf's language, unless they intended to be about Dwarves for a long period of time(and we see that those who did gain the friendship of Dwarves did manage to grasp their language.) Honestly, I don't see the Elves caring that much about it.

You say that the Petty Dwarves were not the best representations of Dwarves; true, but that also goes for the Elves; most of the points you have are about the Noldor especially, and not about the Elves in general. It would be wrong to generalize and count all the Elves as the same. Maybe the question of this debate is unclear, but I suppose that can't be helped.


No, actually I haven't mentioned the Noldor once yet; it was the Sindar who slew the Petty-Dwarves and the Sindar king whom they had a problem with. In fact:

'But the Naugrim gave their friendship more readily to the Noldor in after days than to any others of Elves and Men, because of their love and reverance for Aule; and the gems of the Noldor they praised above all other wealth.'

But they should have been wiser and stopped there; they really had no reason to return to Doriath and destroy it. They could have known it would put an end to whatever good relations they had left with the Elves for a very long time; thereby causing both the geowth of Morgoth's power and the mutually beneficient trade the Dwarves and Elves had. It was only in the Second Age, about 1000 years later, that the Elves of Eregion had re-established their relationship with the Dwarves.

Yes, the Dwarves of Nogrod should have been wiser; they were caught up in the heat of the moment and allowed their thoughts to darken to vengeance on their slain kin. The Dwarves of Belegost tried to dissuade them, but to no avail. You mentioned about how the dealings of the Noldor couldn't fail upon all Elves; well, neither can the dealings of one clan of Dwarves known for being hotheaded.

Also I would like to hear more of your arguments of why the Elves were more to blaim: in your first post you say
Quote:
I will endeavor to prove that in both the events referred to in the text and others, the greater portion of the fault fell upon on the Elves.

but you haven't elaborated on that a lot as yet.

Actually, I have in my last post:

So you see, the Dwarves were just being Dwarves for the most part; some went above and beyond the ideas of their race, some below, but most were just happy being Dwarves and mining away. Elves, however, had to stoop below their standards time and time again(the Noldor in the Kinslaying, Thingol going nuts over the Silmaril, the Sindar hunting down the Petty-Dwarves) to mess up relations between the Elves and Dwarves;the fact that there was that many Elves with stupid streaks definitely makes them bear the greater blame.

The Dwarves were just living out the disharmony that goes all the way back to how that crazy Aule made them and in some cases they actually showed themselves more than that. The Elves, being of the 'wiser' and fairer' race, had much less excuse; they knew where they came from, they had an official part of the Music, but they still kept lowering themselves and doing foolish things time and again.

[Gothmog]

Ok. The debate ends at 03-19-2004, 03:05 AM. GMT. Any posts after this time will be invalid.

[Niniel]

That means the debate has already ended? Or not??? Damn, I wanted to make at least a closing post or something... couldn't you have warned a bit earlier? :)

[Gothmog]

Yes the debate has ended. I am sorry that I was not able to give a 24 hour warning :( home life got in the way.