Round 1: Helcaraxë (GoT) vs. Elfarmari (GoS)

[Ithrynluin]

The debate will commence when both participants report to this thread, after which, the topic will be announced.

[Beleg]

Reporting.

[Helcaraxë]

Reporting.

[Ithrynluin]

Well, we're not a very 'wordy' bunch, are we? :D

Did Finarfin make the right choice in turning back to Valinor with a part of his people?

Helcaraxë gets to pick the side. The debate will last exactly 10 days from his first post.

Good luck, and have fun!

[Helcaraxë]

I’ll take the position that yes, he made a good and wise decision.

First off, if Finarfin had not turned back, he and the Noldor that he led would have been caught in the Doom of the Noldor and the Oath of Fëanor:
Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the Mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West to the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them, it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.

--Mandos, "Of the Flight of the Noldor."

Had the people of Finarfin been thus entrapped, they would have shared the same fate as the rest of the Noldor. The Doom of the Noldor and the Oath of Fëanor were one of the major factors in the eventual defeat of the Eldar in the Wars of Beleriand. Finarfin and his people would have been wiped out, if they had been implicated in this; this is evident in the fact that all the Noldor who took the Oath or were caught in the Doom of the Noldor were decimated, and as I said before Finarfin would share this fate.

Second: in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and the following years, the Noldor were nearly completely annihilated, all their kings slain, and their kingdoms destroyed. It is quite likely that Finarfin would have been slain as well, had he returned to Middle-earth, together with most of his people. In Valinor, he still ruled a remnant of the Noldor, thereby preserving some of them. If he had departed, none would be left in Aman, and the Noldor would have been utterly destroyed.

But even if he had gone, it would have done little to avail the Eldar in the Wars against Morgoth. Finarfin’s following was small compared with all of the Noldor; all of his sons went with Fëanor. And Fëanor would have abandoned Finarfin as well, forcing him and his folk to cross the Helcaraxë, greatly diminishing their numbers. The warriors that they brought would not make much difference when considering the massive scale of the Wars of Beleriand. It is doubtful that there even were many skilled warriors among Finarfin’s following. They had as of yet participated in no battles, and given that Finarfin and his people were somewhat gentler than Fëanor’s and Fingolfin’s, they probably had no desire to wield weapons at all. Establishing a great kingdom (which would not be possible with such a small number of Elves) would not do no good. His presence probably would have caused an even greater division among the Noldor, because he was so at odds with the fiery and violent Sons of Fëanor.

But, even if Finarfin was able to provide substantial aid, the Wars against Morgoth were doomed from the start. The herald of Manwë makes this quite clear:

Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the hall of Eä, not though Eru who thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.

If Fëanor and the vast majority of the Noldor, together with the Edain, Thingol and Melian and their people, the Nandor and the other Moriquendi, Cirdan and the Elves of the Falas, the Dwarves, all aided by the power of Ulmo could not overcome Morgoth, what chance would Finarfin have had? Nothing short of a direct invasion by the Valar overthrew Morgoth. Finarfin could have done nothing to prevent the inevitable defeat of the Elves.

If we consider all these factors, he made a wise decision in choosing not to be eradicated by Morgoth or the evils that came of the Oath of Fëanor and the Doom of the Noldor.

[Helcaraxë]

I don't want to rush you, Beleg, but we only have a few days left. Don't be pressured; I just want to make sure that we have enough time to have a good debate. :)

[Helcaraxë]

I think the ten days are up.

[Ithrynluin]

I asked Beleg whether he would post several times, and he gave me an affirmative answer on all these occasions. He also told me he didn't feel too comfortable with his side of the debate, though he liked the question. He told me he didn't have inspiration to post, so I asked him to either post or PM his replacement Elfarmari. Too bad though... This could've been a nice one. :-\

Any suggestions on what could be done to remedy the situation still? Perhaps ask Elfarmari to jump in and give another ten days?

[Gil-Galad]

Well,having in mind the situation I think that we can give Elfmari 10 days.

But that will also mean that she will be able to participate only in two more debates as replacement.

Beleg should have informed us earlier that he was not satisfied with the topic.

If she does not show up I am afraid that Helcaraxe will be the winner without any debate actually. :(

I hope that we can solve the problem ,because the topic is definitely interesting,even I would like to debate it ;)

[Helcaraxë]

Hmm. Yes, I think we should allow Elfarmari ten days if she shows up. I don't think I should be declared the winner without debate; I don't think that's equitable to my worthy opponents. But as I'm a main representative, it might interfere with my participartion in round two.

[Gil-Galad]

We are waiting for Elfarmari to confirm her participation ASAP.

[Helcaraxë]

I don't know if this will delay my debating in Round 2. Perhaps I should go on to round two and my replacement Starflower will debate with Elfarmari? If not, I'd be happy to debate with Elfarmari myself.

[Gil-Galad]

Let'e whether she Elfarmi will replace Beleg.

Ithy,has she confirmed it?

[Ithrynluin]

She has not responded to my PM yet.

[Elfarmari]

I'm really sorry for the delay, I can't access this site on my computer at home for some reason (my web browser freezes). I will try my best to participate in this debate, but I can't promise to post every day. I will try to do some quick research. . . .

[Ithrynluin]

Great.

I would like this debate to last 10 days from Elfarmari's first post, since obviously we can't count from Helcaraxë's first post, so we need to make an exception to the rules.

Anytime you're ready Elfarmari. :)

[Elfarmari]

First: the wisdom or ‘rightness’ of a decision cannot be purely decided through foresight by the consequences of the decision. However, in hindsight, we are able to see whether considering what happened after a decision was right. I will attempt to address both.

The Noldor who left Valinor left for many different reasons. Fёanor left Aman filled with the lies of Morgoth and bitterness against the Valar, who he wrongly believed to have had purely selfish motives in inviting the Eldar to Valinor. Fingolfin left to be with his people save his people from the “rash counsels of Fёanor, and because of his words to Fёanor before the throne of Manwё: “though shalt lead and I shall follow”, which neither could have forseen the consequences of. The motives of Finarfin are said to be similar to those of Fingolfin. Later, we are told somewhat of the motives of Finrod Felagund, son of Finarfin.
(From the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth)
We have seen [death] and we fear it. We too may die, Andreth; and we have died. My father’s father was cruelly slain, and many have followed him, exiles in the night, in the cruel ice, in the insatiable sea. And in Middle-earth we have died, by fire, and by smoke, by venom and the cruel blades of battle. Fёanor is dead, and Fingolfin was trodden under the feet of the Morgoth.
For what end? To overthrow the Shadow, or if that may not be, to keep it from spreading once more over all Middle-earth – to defend the Children of Eru, Andreth, all the Children and not the proud Eldar only!
Finrod obviously thought the fight against Morgoth worth dying for, and he demonstrated this by his own death: defending Beren in the dungeons of Sauron. The Valar saw a major difference between the motives of Fёanor and of Finrod. Fёanor is said to be in the Halls of Mandos until the End, while Finrod walks with his father in Valinor. Finarfin is said to be the most noble of the House of Finwё. Would he not have similar motives? Had Finarfin come to Middle-earth, would he not agree with these views expressed by his son?

Sometimes those in authority are wrong. This can be because their motives are wrong, their actions are wrong, or their lack of action is wrong. In this case, the inaction of the Valar was wrong. While Fёanor had many wrong reasons for his words, there is no doubt truth in them. Fёanor’s words to the messenger of the Valar proved true.
Say this to Manwё Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Fёanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. . . Yea, in the end they shall follow me.
Following the destruction of the Two Trees, what was needed was action, not grief. The Valar instead took the road that Gondor would take in a later Age: waiting to strike until their Enemy was secure in his power and had subjugated much (or all) of Middle-earth.
Not only the Valar fulfilled this prophecy, Finarfin himself saw the wisdom of it, marching with his people and the host of the Vanyar at the end of the First Age.

The Valar did not forbid the Noldor’s going, being grieved if the charges against them, but counseled against their going. Finarfin did not turn back when the messenger of the Valar spoke this counsel, even when he and the rest of the Noldor were told that their quest to defeat Melkor was in vain and that the Valar would give them no aid. If Finarfin did not wish to risk the possibility of defeat and destruction of his people, as later happened to others of the Noldor, he should have turned back then: before the Kinslaying (in which he took no part).


Had Finarfin come to Middle-earth, he might have been able to steer the Noldor to wiser counsels. His closer kinship to Thingol may have helped repair the breach caused by the Kinslaying and allow a closer alliance. Especially after the death of Fёanor, Finarfin might have been able to “calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone.”

Some situations in which such counsel might have proved helpful:

-Fingolfin’s duel with Morgoth (which, regardless of its futility accomplished one thing which the Valar could not do: force Morgoth to come himself to battle)

-Turgon’s refusal of Ulmos’s warning

Another situation where Finarfin could have helped the Noldor is their dealings with Men. Finrod, Finarfin’s son, was the first of the Eldar to meet the Edain, and found in them strong allies. Perhaps Finarfin would have been able to do the same to a greater extent?

[Helcaraxë]

The Noldor who left Valinor left for many different reasons. Fёanor left Aman filled with the lies of Morgoth and bitterness against the Valar, who he wrongly believed to have had purely selfish motives in inviting the Eldar to Valinor. Fingolfin left to be with his people save his people from the “rash counsels of Fёanor, and because of his words to Fёanor before the throne of Manwё: “though shalt lead and I shall follow”, which neither could have forseen the consequences of. The motives of Finarfin are said to be similar to those of Fingolfin. Later, we are told somewhat of the motives of Finrod Felagund, son of Finarfin.
(From the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth)

I don't think motives have much relevance regarding whether the decision was wise. Wise decisions can be made with unwise motives, and vice versa. The fact that Finrod and Fingolfin had far nobler motives than Fëanor did little to help the Noldor. They were still utterly defeated. In short, motives did not change the "consequences of the decision."

Finrod obviously thought the fight against Morgoth worth dying for, and he demonstrated this by his own death: defending Beren in the dungeons of Sauron. The Valar saw a major difference between the motives of Fёanor and of Finrod. Fёanor is said to be in the Halls of Mandos until the End, while Finrod walks with his father in Valinor. Finarfin is said to be the most noble of the House of Finwё. Would he not have similar motives? Had Finarfin come to Middle-earth, would he not agree with these views expressed by his son?

It is quite likely that he would agree with these views. But neither Fëanor nor Finrod would have died but for the rash and unwise decisions of Fëanor and his followers. Your point proves that if Finarfin had indeed come, he would have acted more nobly than some of the other Noldor, but not that it was an unwise decision not to come in the first place.

Sometimes those in authority are wrong. This can be because their motives are wrong, their actions are wrong, or their lack of action is wrong. In this case, the inaction of the Valar was wrong. While Fёanor had many wrong reasons for his words, there is no doubt truth in them. Fёanor’s words to the messenger of the Valar proved true.

Complete inaction on the part of the Valar would have been wrong. But I seriously doubt that the Valar would do absolutely nothing about Melkor, the murderer of the Trees that they prized above all else, cause of all evil in the world. Fëanor should have left the decision to the Valar. They eventually followed him, but not before countless deaths, the destruction of the kingdoms of the Noldor, and hundreds of years of hopeless war against the Dark Enemy. Remember the herald of Manwë's words: the Noldor never had any hope of defeating Morgoth without aid from the Valar. Only when the aid came was Melkor overthrown. The Valar would definately not let him enslave the race of Men; eventually, the Valar would have overthrown him. Fëanor's flight was unnecessary, as were the Wars of Beleriand. In this case, the action of Fëanor produced the same result that you claim would have happened if they had not acted: Melkor gained complete dominion over Middle-Earth.

Following the destruction of the Two Trees, what was needed was action, not grief.

Action, yes. But not rash action, nor action that had absolutely no hope of succeeding. What resulted from Fëanor's flight? The complete destruction of the kingdoms of the Noldor, as well as those of the other Elves and the Edain, as well as Melkor's utter victory over the forces of good, and for many years his complete reign over Middle-Earth.

The Valar instead took the road that Gondor would take in a later Age: waiting to strike until their Enemy was secure in his power and had subjugated much (or all) of Middle-earth.
Not only the Valar fulfilled this prophecy, Finarfin himself saw the wisdom of it, marching with his people and the host of the Vanyar at the end of the First Age.

And Melkor still subjugated the vast majority of Middle-Earth even when the Noldor did make war against him, which further proves that the flight was pointless.

The Valar did not forbid the Noldor’s going, being grieved if the charges against them, but counseled against their going. Finarfin did not turn back when the messenger of the Valar spoke this counsel, even when he and the rest of the Noldor were told that their quest to defeat Melkor was in vain and that the Valar would give them no aid. If Finarfin did not wish to risk the possibility of defeat and destruction of his people, as later happened to others of the Noldor, he should have turned back then: before the Kinslaying (in which he took no part).

Yes, he should have. Which is why it was a wise decision to turn back after the Kinslaying even though he should have done so much earlier.

Had Finarfin come to Middle-earth, he might have been able to steer the Noldor to wiser counsels. His closer kinship to Thingol may have helped repair the breach caused by the Kinslaying and allow a closer alliance. Especially after the death of Fёanor, Finarfin might have been able to “calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone.”

All in vain. All the "wise counsel" in Arda could not have allowed the Elves to defeat Morgoth without the direct intervention of the Valar. Perhaps Finarfin could have aided, but he too would have been destroyed.

Some situations in which such counsel might have proved helpful:

-Fingolfin’s duel with Morgoth (which, regardless of its futility accomplished one thing which the Valar could not do: force Morgoth to come himself to battle)

Again, all counsel would have been ultimately in vain. If Fingolfin hadn't fought Morgoth the final result of the hopeless Wars of Beleriand would have been little different. As for forcing Morgoth to come into battle, you yourself said it was fruitless.

-Turgon’s refusal of Ulmos’s warning

Nothing short of a direct invasion of the Valar could have conquered Morgoth. Had Gondolin held, Turgon still would never have been able to defeat Melkor, as the Herald makes clear.

Another situation where Finarfin could have helped the Noldor is their dealings with Men. Finrod, Finarfin’s son, was the first of the Eldar to meet the Edain, and found in them strong allies. Perhaps Finarfin would have been able to do the same to a greater extent?

Perhaps. But these are things that could not alter the eventual outcome of the Elve's war on Morgoth. If only a full-scale invasion by the Lords of the West themselves could overthrow Morgoth, any help that Finarfin could have provided would ultimately be in vain and probably result in his demise. The point is that regardless of any specific deeds by Elves or men during the Wars of Beleriand, it would accomplish nothing in the long run. These Wars were doomed to fail from the start. Nothing that Finarfin could have done, however great, would have changed this.

[Elfarmari]

First off, if Finarfin had not turned back, he and the Noldor that he led would have been caught in the Doom of the Noldor and the Oath of Fëanor. . . . Had the people of Finarfin been thus entrapped, they would have shared the same fate as the rest of the Noldor.
Those of Finarfin's people who did not return with him were left to this fate, as were his children.

If he had departed, none would be left in Aman, and the Noldor would have been utterly destroyed. Not all of the Noldor left Aman, and even had Finarfin not turned back, those of his people who wished to could have still done so.

But even if he had gone, it would have done little to avail the Eldar in the Wars against Morgoth.
I am not attempting to argue that Finarfin's prescence would have brought about the overthrow of Morgoth. I am arguing that is would have been right for him to go with his people to Middle-earth and to help them as best he could. The examples mentioned are ways in which he could have done this, and saved many of the Noldor from death. While Melkor himself was beyond the power of the Eldar, all the deeds of Melkor were not inevitable. A closer alliance with a greater part of the Men who entered Beleriand might have saved many lives, as Turgon could have had he listened to the counsel of Ulmo.

Fingolfin's decision to go to Middle-earth was right because only in this way could he remain with his people and help and protect them by counsel or might. We do not know how many of the people of Finarfin continued on the march after the Kinslaying, but we do know that all of his children left Aman. It would have been right for Finarfin to go to Middle-earth for the sake of his kin who still followed Fëanor.

For those of his people who wished to return to Valinor, they could still have returned, but those of his people who did not wish to return needed the cool-headed leadership of Finarfin more.

Finarfin's decision to return to Valinor was essentially a decision to separate himself from his family and the rest of the Noldor until the unforeseable distant future. Finarfin knew the power of Fëanor's words, and must also have known that the effect of those words would wear off. Perhaps, had Finarfin chosen to continue, he would have been able to persuade a greater part of the Noldor to return with him.

[Helcaraxë]

Those of Finarfin's people who did not return with him were left to this fate, as were his children.

That's the point. Finarfin's children died in part because they were insnared in the Doom and the Oath. Why would it have been wise for Finarfin to do the same?

Not all of the Noldor left Aman, and even had Finarfin not turned back, those of his people who wished to could have still done so.

Most of them did. A shattered remnant, at most, would have been left. But this is irrelevant in considering whether it was right for Finarfin to turn back.


I am not attempting to argue that Finarfin's prescence would have brought about the overthrow of Morgoth. I am arguing that is would have been right for him to go with his people to Middle-earth and to help them as best he could. The examples mentioned are ways in which he could have done this, and saved many of the Noldor from death. While Melkor himself was beyond the power of the Eldar, all the deeds of Melkor were not inevitable. A closer alliance with a greater part of the Men who entered Beleriand might have saved many lives, as Turgon could have had he listened to the counsel of Ulmo.

It is possible that Finarfin might have saved some lives. But the Noldor in Middle-Earth still would have been destroyed. The Wars were doomed to fail; Finarfin could not prevent this, and any help would ultimately have been in vain. And just because he may have helped, this does not mean he should have gone with them. I don't think Finarfin should be expected to act like a Lemur. If most of the Noldor wanted to walk off a cliff, so to speak, Finarfin was under no moral obligation to follow them, even if he could have helped.

Fingolfin's decision to go to Middle-earth was right because only in this way could he remain with his people and help and protect them by counsel or might. We do not know how many of the people of Finarfin continued on the march after the Kinslaying, but we do know that all of his children left Aman. It would have been right for Finarfin to go to Middle-earth for the sake of his kin who still followed Fëanor.

And in doing so doom himself? Fingolfin was not right to do so, nor would Finarfin have been. Regardless of what counsel Finarfin could have provided, if he went he was doomed to die because of the Doom and the Oath. Finarfin’s kinsmen were not right to go either; I don’t see why he should be expected to go to his death to try to help his kinsmen who were already doomed by returning to Middle-Earth.


For those of his people who wished to return to Valinor, they could still have returned, but those of his people who did not wish to return needed the cool-headed leadership of Finarfin more.

And this admittedly cool-headed and wise counsel would have accounted for what, in the end? Do you think wise counsel could avert the Doom of the Noldor and the Oath of Fëanor? Regardless of any counsel or aid he could have provided both he and those he aided would die.

Finarfin's decision to return to Valinor was essentially a decision to separate himself from his family and the rest of the Noldor until the unforeseable distant future. Finarfin knew the power of Fëanor's words, and must also have known that the effect of those words would wear off. Perhaps, had Finarfin chosen to continue, he would have been able to persuade a greater part of the Noldor to return with him.

The decision to separate himself from his family was justified given that his family was going forth to certain death.

I'm not sure if, when you say "to persuade others to return with him," you mean return to Middle-Earth, or return to Valinor? If you mean to Middle-Earth, then he would have persuaded others of his kin to go to their doom with him. Not very wise at all. If you mean Valinor, then I gather that, if his continuing would accomplish good by convincing others to turn back, it must have been a good decision to turn back in the first place.

[Ithrynluin]

This debate is now closed. Too bad it delivered such a small number of posts though. :-\