Would JRRT have approved of all his ME notes being published?

[Eledhwen]

This question was asked by Greenwood in a thread about The Hobbit Film, which ended up discussing Christopher Tolkien's disapproval of his son's involvement:And while I greatly appreciate CT's work in publishing The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and the HoME series, I think CT should consider the likelihood that his father would never have approved of much of that material being published when he decides to cut himself off from his own son.This begs the question: WOULD JRRT HAVE APPROVED OF WHAT CHRISTOPHER TOLKIEN HAS DONE WITH HIS WRITINGS ON MIDDLE-EARTH? CT decided the final form of The Silmarillion, then published all JRRT's other writings in all their stages of development, including abandoned concepts. JRRT had been trying to get the Silmarillion published for years, but would it have been the Silmarillion CT produced? Would stories from Unfinished Tales have made their way into the later part of the book? Would it have been a flat-earth or a round-earth cosmogony? JRRT ran out of time because of LotR, but producing LotR changed the Sil and spawned many other tales, didn't it. (I'm beginning to wonder why I started this thread :confused: )

[Greenwood]

Having just discovered this thread that a comment of mine inspired I think I should expand on my original comments.

In reading many of Tolkien's published letters I get the feeling that JRRT was a bit of a perfectionist. This is my no means meant as a criticism, but rather in a complimentary way. Given that impression it seems unlikely to me that JRRT would have wanted his initial drafts and rewrites published as so many of them are in the HoME series. I think that would be a normal feeling for any writer and probably even more so for a perfectionist. (I have had writings published, though never fiction, and I know I wouldn't want many of my early drafts published. :D ) It is in that sense that I say I don't think JRRT would have approved of Christopher publishing all the manuscripts of his father's that he has published.

However, let me add that I greatly appreciate Christopher Tolkien publishing the material and I am very glad he did. One of the wonders of The Hobbit and particularly LOTR is the feel you get while reading it that Middle Earth is a real world with thousands of years of history behind it. One of the reasons for this feeling is that JRRT in fact created thousands of years of history and it became a backdrop for the stories. The Silmarillion gaves us all a chance to see this history. Much of the HoME series then gave us a chance to see the creation and evolution of this world and the creation and evolution of the published LOTR. This sort of thing does not exist for very many works of literature and when such manuscripts do exist they are locked away in library archives where only a select few scholars ever get to read them. In the HoME series Christopher Tolkien has enabled all of us to see his father at work and I thank him for that gift. That does not change the fact that I doubt his father ever expected this material to have such a wide circulation. JRRT, of course, was a scholar himself and in sending his manuscripts to a university library for preservation he had to know there was the possibility (likelihood) that someone would look at them and perhaps publish about them, but I doubt he ever thought they would be published themselves.

Having expanded on my original comment I will return to my original point which was that in cutting off his own son for a disagreement about his father's work, Christopher should think about how his father might feel about his drafts and notes being published.

[Eledhwen]

In reading many of Tolkien's published letters I get the feeling that JRRT was a bit of a perfectionist. I can understand this sort of perfectionism, it's called being your own best critic; and in Tolkien's case, his disciplines were so unique as to make it difficult to find any critic who could make as sound a judgement on it as himself. My Dad was a soldier, but in his heart he was a craftsman, and often worked with wood, copper and silver, making furniture, toys and jewellery. If he made a piece of work he didn't think was good enough, he destroyed it. It's different for a writer, though, because you never know when a piece of rejected work will suddenly be the inspiration behind something new.

I greatly appreciate Christopher publishing the material and I am very glad he did. One of the wonders of The Hobbit and particularly LOTR is the feel you get while reading it that Middle Earth is a real world with thousands of years of history behind it. One of the reasons for this feeling is that JRRT in fact created thousands of years of history and it became a backdrop for the stories. The Silmarillion gaves us all a chance to see this history. Much of the HoME series then gave us a chance to see the creation and evolution of this world and the creation and evolution of the published LOTR. This sort of thing does not exist for very many works of literature and when such manuscripts do exist they are locked away in library archives where only a select few scholars ever get to read them. In the HoME series Christopher Tolkien has enabled all of us to see his father at work and I thank him for that gift. I think we all owe CT a debt of thanks; and any comments on this thread can only ever be subjective, unless new material comes to light.

Thanks for the original thought, Greenwood.

[Greenwood]

But I don't know much about a son being cut off for a disagreement about JRRT's work. I had heard this, filed it under 'rumor until proven otherwise'. Maybe there is more to the story than what was made public? Are CT's motives completely known?

I don't think CT has said anything publicly (or I should say I have not heard that he has). I did see his son on CNN and his son said that his father had cut him off and not spoken to him for years because the son thought the family should be involved with the making of the films. My impression from this report and earlier reports was that CT was opposed to any film being made of LOTR. Now there may well be other family dynamics going on here in addition to the films. (I kind of hope there are since IMO cutting oneself off from a child is rather drastic and the making of a film hardly seems to rise to a level that might justify such action.) However, since CT hasn't spoken (apparently), I can only go by what his son has said.

[joxy]

JRRT, of course, was a scholar himself and in sending his manuscripts to a university library for preservation....
Can you remind me: IS that what happened about the papers, and what university was it?
Regarding Tolkien's family, which of his direct descendants are still alive?

[Barliman Butterbur]

This question was asked by Greenwood in a thread about The Hobbit Film, which ended up discussing Christopher Tolkien's disapproval of his son's involvement:This begs the question: WOULD JRRT HAVE APPROVED OF WHAT CHRISTOPHER TOLKIEN HAS DONE WITH HIS WRITINGS ON MIDDLE-EARTH? CT decided the final form of The Silmarillion, then published all JRRT's other writings in all their stages of development, including abandoned concepts. JRRT had been trying to get the Silmarillion published for years, but would it have been the Silmarillion CT produced? Would stories from Unfinished Tales have made their way into the later part of the book? Would it have been a flat-earth or a round-earth cosmogony? JRRT ran out of time because of LotR, but producing LotR changed the Sil and spawned many other tales, didn't it. (I'm beginning to wonder why I started this thread :confused: )

We'll never know... As I said elsewhere, the Tolkien letters show that CT was Tolkien's ideal audience: he sent LOTR installments to CT wherever he was in the world, and confessed that when he was writing it, he had CT's reactions in mind. Tolkien said that CT was most like him in temperament and values, and most understood his efforts. I am positive that CT took that VERY seriously, and that's why he's not only so protective of JRR's works, but also why he wanted to publish the unfinished and abandoned parts: he wanted to preserve it all, wanted the public to appreciate it all, and wanted them to gain an understanding of the creative process.

I wonder to myself: should I or should I not purchase the "History of Middle Earth?" Do I want to read a bunch of drafts that didn't make the cut? Do I want to spend the money?

Lotho

[Eledhwen]

I did see his son on CNN and his son said that his father had cut him off and not spoken to him for years because the son thought the family should be involved with the making of the films.But JRRT himself agreed the principle of 'money or art'; so he was not against filming altogether. Would he have been amused, rather than incensed? I wonder. wonder to myself: should I or should I not purchase the "History of Middle Earth?" Do I want to read a bunch of drafts that didn't make the cut? Do I want to spend the money?Borrow them from the library, one at a time. If they grab you and you want a permanent copy, then buy them.

[Greenwood]

Can you remind me: IS that what happened about the papers, and what university was it?
Regarding Tolkien's family, which of his direct descendants are still alive?

Tolkien himself sent his manuscripts (I think he sold them) to Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The library there is hosting an academic conference on Tolkien this October to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the publication of LOTR.

As for Tolkien's direct descendents, I don't know how many there are. I am not even sure exactly how many children JRRT had. I believe it was three sons and a daughter. We all know Christopher and he has at least one son named Simon and Simon has at least one child (I think two). One of Tolkien's sons became a priest so there probably are no descendents from that son. :) The third son had at least one son of his own, because I believe it is that son's grandson (JRRT's great-grandson) who was an extra in ROTK. I don't know if Tolkien's daughter married or had any children.

But JRRT himself agreed the principle of 'money or art'; so he was not against filming altogether. Would he have been amused, rather than incensed?

I am not quite sure what you mean here, but it was JRRT himself who sold the movie rights to The Hobbit and TLOR, so I guess we would have to say that, in principle at least, he was not against the books being made into films.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Borrow them from the library, one at a time. If they grab you and you want a permanent copy, then buy them.

Excellent suggestion, thanks!:D

Lotho