Judging Round1-Bethelarien vs. Arvedui

[Gil-Galad]

Here will be posted the decisions of the three judges after the end of the debate.

The judges are:

Nom
Aule
Gil-Galad


I would like to ask Nom and Aule to post their judgements as soon as possible and of course I would like to thank them for their help :)

[Nóm]

Beth's reasons for why Aldarion is to blame!

1) Aldarion treated the forests, which Erendis loved, poorly.

2) Aldarion was generally neglectful as a husband, taking off for long amounts of time and breaking his word about when he'd return home. All this because he loved the sea more than he loved his wife!

Arvedui's reasons that Erendis is to blame!

1) Erendis wanted to change Aldarion, rather than understand him.

2) Aldarion sacrificed more for Erendis than she did for him, she didn't understand the part of a wife of a King's heir.

3) Erendis's love for Aldarion failed first. She gave up on him, while he continued to love her.


All of these claims were sufficiently backed up when presented.

How were they countered?

Beth's 1 - Arvedui presents quotes that put this in doubt. Quotes showing that Aldarion took much care of the forests.

Beth's 2 - Arvedui says that Erendis equally did not care for the needs of Aldarion. He explains why this is evident. This calls Beth's 2 into question, in that it can hardly be grounds to blame one when both were guilty of it. But they are not left equal on this point, since Arvedui goes on to question the truth of Beth's 2. He argues Aldarion was justified in the actions that Beth argue he was at fault in - being away from home so often. Arvedui says that as King's heir it was his duty, and as a Man who could see the big picture, he had his reasons. He was so qualified to be King his father was willing to resign for that reason. And furthermore Erendis should have given more thought not only to Aldarion's responsablity but also to her role as wife of the King (whose responsablity is to all the people) to be. But Beth strikes back saying it was not his duty to go out sailing... he sailed out of his own personal desire - even his father the King said as much! So we have a disagreement that doesn't get followed up on. Beth did more to support her initial claim, by pointing out that Aldarion was unable to keep his word, and others thought he had treated Erendis badly. Beth's 2 stands in the end, but will it be enough?

Arvedui's 1 - Beth disagrees! She states that Erendis was not trying to turn Aldarion into her image of him... but simply wanted her husband to be around. Neither of the debator's was able to prevail much over the other one on this point in my mind (due to the fact the debate ended before more could be said) so I call it even here.

Arvedui's 2 - Untouched

Arvedui's 3 - A very important point I think, and the one the debate might ultimately have come down it had it continued. But who can be sure? Here I must quote Beth "Erendis did continue to love him, and her love was rekindled all the more in her old age. She even faced her fear of the water and sailed out to meet him, causing her own death by drowning. So she disregarded her frailties and sacrificed, ultimately, her own life for the love of a husband who no longer cared for her." Initially it sounds good, sounds like something to stand strong against Arvedui's claim, but just how much of this is fact and how much is interpretation taken with a pretty big leap? That Erendis "continued to love" Aldarion does not necessarily have to follow the fact that in old age and "in bitter loneliness, she longed once more for Aldarion", but rather "once more" calls it into question! So on this point I am inclined to give Arvedui some credit.


Because Arvedui both provided more reason that Erendis was to blame, and did a little more to argue against Beth's claims than she did his, I vote for Arvedui.

[Aulë]

When I was first asked to judge this debate, I was quite hesitant since I had never shown an interest in The Mariner's Wife. But I decided to stick it out and read the text a lot more thoroughly than I had done so previously. And not for the first time I really enjoyed it. It's because of reasons like these that I participate in debates- it forces you to read things that you would otherwise skim over, or ignore altogether- and more often than not, enjoy it.

Anyway, on to the debate.
It was a shame that Bethelarien did not have any more time available, since it turned out to be a rather awkwardly structured debate- with Beth getting the first and last posts, and Arvedui getting everything in between.

Beth's first post was brief, but at least she put forward some key points for Arvedui to tackle over the next few days. Beth's 3 key points were A). Aldarion cut down trees, even though he knew how Eredis loved them so. B). Aldarion was absent for long periods of time. C). Aldarion did not keep his "2 year" promise. It would have been nice to have a few more supporting quotes with this though, as well as a bit more depth. Perhaps there would be some in her other post?

Arvedui's next four posts were very well structured with good support from well chosen quotes. He did well to counter Beth's "A" point, by saying that Aldarion planted more trees than he hewed down. He never convinced me otherwise about points "B" and "C", though. He said how Aldarion's actions should have been justified by their helpfulness for Numenor. But this topic was about the marriage between Erendos and Aldarion, and even though Aldarion's actions were justified because of Gil-Galad's letter, they damaged the marriage none the less.

Arvedui then points out Erendis' flaws: A). She did not comprehend Aldarion's position in society, and tried to change him into something he could never be. B). She never tried to understand her husband. C). She never acted as she should have, considering that she was the future queen of Numenor. D). Her actions with Ancalime. E). Erendis gave up on the marriage too soon.

Beth then closed things up with her second post. She says that Aldarion hurt Erendis by cutting down trees. I did not agree with this though- It was more of a two-way thing, since Erendis did not love the thing that Aldarion loved most (the sea), and would not voyage with him- and in the process hurting her husband's feelings. It would have been nice if Arvedui had the opportunity to pick up on that. I did not agree with Beth's second point in that post, since Aldarion's actions were justified, as Arvedui had already pointed out.

Basically, Beth successfully shows that Aldarion was a cause of the poor marriage as he did not fulfill a promise, and did not comminicate well enough with Erendis: why did he never tell his father or Erendis the full purpose of his mission? It was up to Gil-Galad to reveal this to his father, but it was too late for their marriage.

Arvedui successfully shows that Erendis was wrong because she never came to accept what Aldarion really was. Did she act how a future queen should have? No. She knew exactly was she was getting in to when she started courting Aldarion. Then her nasty actions with Ancalime. Sure, Aldarion had broken his promise- but did that really mean that she had to rub salt into the wound by trying to corrupt Ancalime? And Erendis was far too quick in giving up hope. Her shorter lifespan may have contributed towards this, but maybe they could have reconciled when she discovered what Aldarion had been up to (via Gil-Galad's letter). Aldarion was still willing, but she was not.

Overall, a good debate. Arvedui was the winner in my opinion. His posts were better stuctured, with in-context quotes throughout. Perhaps Beth would have done a better job had she not been so pressed for time. Arvedui also provided more reason for why Erendis was the main contributer towards the failure of the marriage.

Well done to both competitors.