Judging: Round 1. The-Elf-Herself vs Niniel

[Gothmog]

This is the thread for the judges to post their verdicts after the debate.

The judges are:

Eledhwen
Lantarion
Mrs.Maggott

[Eledhwen]

This was a short round, and I am sure that the arguments would have been developed, if there had been more opportunity.

The Elf Herself produced the argument that the Elves were to blame, and the first post hung on the premise that the Elves should have known better, given the nature of the Dwarves. I looked for quotes from Tolkien's works to justify the claim, but none were given. I would like to have seen some evidence that the Elves' mistrust of the Dwarves had anything to do with the latter's origins and language.

Niniel's opening salvo was much closer to the mark in that she gave more solid reasons why the Dwarves were to blame, giving examples from Tolkien's stories of events that caused division. Direct quotes were not given, so I had to rely on the fact that I knew the information given was correct. A novice should be able to judge this debate by looking up the quotations given and finding them to be true and good arguments.

The Elf Herself's second post was entirely on the back foot, fielding remarks made in Niniel's opening post, with little fresh development of the opening argument. Words like 'poncy' and 'stupid' did not help, and dulled the incisiveness of the argument. Nevertheless, there were some good counters made, especially the quotes showing the Elves' hostility towards the Petty Dwarves - strong evidence that the Dwarves were the initial victims.

Niniel's second post begins by quoting the account of the Dwarves creation, but doesn't develop any argument on it. Arguments against The Elf Herself's previous counters were answered, but I found no fresh information on why the events mentioned indicate that the Dwarves started the unrest.

The Elf Herself's third post mentions the benefits of Dwarvish activity, and the problems of language, and which Elves were the problem etc., but again the argument does not trace back to who fired the first shot, so to speak, in the Elf/Dwarf cold war. Unfortunately, Niniel did not get the opportunity to reply.

I am sure that both contestants found the debate frustratingly short; I would have liked to read more.

Based on the amount of evidence produced as to who was to blame for the animosity that existed between the two races; although I rarely come down on the fence, I have to declare my vote to be a draw.

[Mrs. Maggott]

I have read the posts in this debate and I certainly congratulate the two participants who had a very difficult topic to “get round” in what has proven (for me at least) to be an unacceptably short time in which to do it. True, both debaters presented their main arguments, but the paucity of time at their disposal prevented both from developing their arguments to the fullest and/or to examine “the facts” as it would be most beneficial to each one’s case.

Furthermore, there were some points that were simply mentioned in passing which should have been key to both sides: the first is the nature of Aule and his servants. Remember, both Sauron and Saruman had served Aule before the first followed Morgoth and the second was chosen to be a member of the Istari (and we all know how he turned out!). As well, the Noldor were most akin among the First Born to him (as was mentioned in the debate) – and subsequently caused the most problems in Arda as a result of their fixation with material things (I seem to remember a matter of “Rings” being mentioned somewhere - but not in this debate!) Furthermore, there wasn’t much “connection” made between Tolkien’s views on “technology” and machines and this particular Valar’s chosen sphere of influence. Interestingly enough, however, none of this necessarily favors either side in the debate for both sides could – and in some instances briefly did use it to make their points.

An even more important matter, however appears in the following post:

“The attack of the Dwarves on Menegroth was of course the reason for the real [my emphasis] animosity that existed between Elves and Dwarves. Of course the Elves (Thingol) were to blame as well; but the real cause of the war was the Dwarves foolish demand to keep the Nauglamír. They had agreed to fix a Silmaril [my emphasis] in the necklace for Thingol, and only afterwards they claimed it for their own. Thingol was right to remove them from his realm. The Dwarves were driven by their desire for the Silmaril to attack Doriath and utterly destroy it and kill Thingol…”

It would seem therefore, that, as the debater said, “(t)he Dwarves were driven by their desire for the Silmaril…” These great jewels were talismans of sorrow. They brought about during the course of their existence far more bloodshed and misery than can be laid at the door of the dwarves or the Dark Elves both of whose involvement with these creations of the Noldor also stained them. Yet, this aspect of the strife between dwarf and elf is not developed in the debate and no attempt is made to use the madness that seems to affect all who encounter those great jewels to buttress the viewpoint of either side.

Insofar as what has been posted in this debate, I must agree with my learned colleague that both participants have made points that were rebutted but not necessarily disproved. Yet, I believe that the points made in defense of the dwarves were more telling. However, having said this, I am also of the belief that this is a matter which contains much further food for thought (and exposition) – including a more complete development on the issue which was raised: the amount of blame that accrues to those who – through no fault of their own – have limitations vs. that which accrues to those who have been blessed with great gifts. I would like to see this debate carried on and both sides able to make use of the reference works available to them to further develop their points. However, as the debate now stands, I would rule in favor of the Guild of Outcasts.

[Lantarion]

As both judges have already pointed out, this debate was one of extreme brevity time-wise, and it is in light of this fact that I will judge the debate itself. The topic was both interesting and very difficult, and in the space provided each debater did an admirable job. (This will be a rather long judging ;)).

The-Elf-Herself had a very appropriate opening post, laying down the very principle of her argument and establishing a good ground for her claims. Two very relevant quotes were provided therein, and they were well carried out in the debate. Despite some slightly inappropriate lingo and some assumptions made in her opening post (e.g. that Aulë's rashness in creating the Naugrim had something to do with the later strife between them and the Quendi), The-Elf-Herself began the debate very well.
Now whereas the claim that the 'non-Eruhíni'-status of the Naugrim had something to do with the strife between them and the Quendi is not invalid at all, T-E-H's claim was not properly shown to be based in Tolkien's published works, giving it the apparent nature of an assumption. Niniel, however, gave a good description and reasoning related to the theory, which made it justified as a plausible hypothesis rather than an assumption. And though Niniel's opening post contained no quotes from any of Tolkien's works, her Non-Eruhíni-theory was based on her own knowledge and memory of the works; and her deep understanding of the Silmarillion was well displayed in her arguments. While this is an admirable fact, she provided no quotes whatsoever from Tolkien's works during the debate (though the short time provided must be taken into account as well), i.e. giving no first-hand evidence or backup for her claims, though she mentions sources several times. But in the end Niniel's opening post came off as more effective and thorough, as it was both the opening post and the first true set of arguments in the debate, which T-E-H then proceeded to counter.

I found it odd that T-E-H in her very thorough answer to Niniel's opening post almost went against the Non-Eruhíni argument eloquently proposed, as the argument was almost the same in her own statement. And her point was not really relevant to her argument, even if it was justified.
T-E-H's well-composed and systematic breaking down of Niniel's post continues, but unfortunately a somewhat unrelated point is made when she comments further on Niniel's 'outsider'-reasoning. But one clear and valid point is made: Yes, but I would consider that a problem of the Elves[...]; this is a good counter-argument to Niniel's claim.
T-E-H's point of Khuzdul being taught to select few was more nitpicking than real argumentation, but it did no harm to her arguments. And she pointed out once again that it was in part the Quendi's lack of eagerness to learn the language that provided this chasm between the two races, bolstering her side of the debate somewhat.
Her point of convienience in the matter of the Naugrim living underground was also a good counter-statement; however, it was solely based on rationale and logic rather than 'proof' from Tolkien's works. But she once again raises the passive nature of the Elves in relation to the underground homes of the Naugrim, one of her strongpoints in her arguments.
T-E-H didn't do a very thorough job of countering Niniel's claim that the mystery surrounding the Dwarves might have led to distrust of them by other races (the Quendi specifically), and her point of the Quendi 'getting their noses bent' over the willingness of the Naugrim to learn their languages was not well-founded and again presented as an assumption or opinion.
But T-E-H strongly counters Niniel's point of the Noegyth Nibin being hostile with quotes from the Silmarillion (or UT?) showing that it was the Quendi who triggered that hostility. In this she presents a flaw in the morality of the Quendi, which can be connected to their distrust of the Dwarves in later times. But her use of lingo is again rather inappropriate, with words like 'poncy', 'couldn't be bothered' etc.
In her attempt to justify the behaviour of the Dwarves surrounding the Nauglamír, T-E-H does not provide a strong argument for this justification, again because of lack of direct literary evidence and by relying on opinion and logic. And when she mentions that the Dwarves killed Thingol in cold blood, she is really providing fuel for Niniel's argument, not hers.
The remainder of her counter-post is very good, providing new perspectives on the issue: by pointing out that the Dwarves of Belegost tried to dissuade those of Nogrod from their warring she brings to light the fact that a generalization about the race of Dwarves has been made by Niniel. However, this is a tad insignificant to the topic of the debate.
T-E-H also points out: By the way, it's not true that this was the be-all and end-all of elf/dwarf friendships: I believe their greatest alliance in crafts was Eregion/Kazad-dhum an Age later, and this ia a valid argument, which leaves Niniel's dramatization of the events surrounding the Nauglamír somewhat weakened.
But it is a shame that while she previously points out that not all Dwarves thought alike, she makes two huge generalizations just a little later: some went above and beyond the ideas of their race, some below, but most were just happy being Dwarves and mining away.
And T-E-H's argument is mostly based on the observation that the Quendi should have known better; but in fact this actually has little to do with the actual topic of who was the greater culprit in the strife. :o

In her second post Niniel continues to justify her claim that it was in part due to the circumstances of their creation that the Dwarves had troubles with the Elves, countering The-Elf-herself's previous counter-claim. Niniel gives a semi-direct quote from 'Letters', but does not expand on her source or the context in which the passages she gave were in.
And though T-E-H's argument that the Quendi were not all that keen to learn about the Naugrim was largely valid and interesting, Niniel counters that here by saying that the Quendi never were given a chance to learn Khuzdul; and yet she provides no evidence to back that up.
Niniel makes a very important point, relating again to generalization of races, that the Elves in question in this whole situation are largely Noldor or Sindar, who like the Noegyth Nibin were not very viable representatives of their race as a whole in this context.
Where T-E-H has given the observation that the Quendi in question should have known better, this applies also to the Naugrim in the case of the destruction of Doriath, which Niniel shows. But her argument does not hold as much water as it might, because the breaking of ties between the Elves and Dwarves from that point on was not permanent, and a very harmonious co-operation was later established between them.
When Niniel says but you haven't elaborated on that a lot as yet she goes a toe out of line; it is an unnecessary statement, bordering on ad hominem.

Now T-E-H makes a good counter-point: So you can't really say that merely fulfilling what Eru doomed them to be is enough cause for the greater blame of the strife between them and the Elves, since the Dwarves had no control over that; a great argument which liuifies a portion of Niniel's earlier remarks.
The quote provided by T-E-H in relation to the learning of Khuzdul is too vague to be given as hard evidence, as it is mostly up to interpretation as to what the quote signifies.
A strong point of T-E-H's is this: The Elves, being of the 'wiser' and fairer' race, had much less excuse; they knew where they came from, they had an official part of the Music, but they still kept lowering themselves and doing foolish things time and again. It shows that the Quendi needed to go out of their way to do the deeds they did, whereas it has largely inherent for the Naugrim. Interesting and valid thought this point is, it does not bare much significance to the topic, of who was more to blame, i.e. who was the greater perpetrator of destruction of these two races in these circumstances.


Sadly, this is where the debate ends; I'm sure Niniel would have liked to make a closing post, but it was not possible due to time limitations, and this is taken into account in judging the debate.
Now of the two debators, it seemed to me that though T-E-H's points were often valid, interesting and good counter arguments, they did not have enough baring on the topic of the debate itself.
As for Niniel, her lack of quotes was slightly alarming but her knowledge of the works was large enough for her point to be brought across well and justified. And almost all points that she made bore directly to the issue, and were compelling though certainly not airtight.

In light of all the above, I nominate the Guild of Periaur, represented by Niniel, as the victor of this debate.

[Gothmog]

I wish to thank the judges for the great work each put into their judgements.

The point about the shortness of the debate noted by each of you will be brought to the tournament organiser for discussion.

So the result is as follows:

Eledhwen -----Draw
Lantarion -----Guild of Periaur (Niniel)
Mrs.Maggott --Guild of Outcasts (The-Elf-Herself)

So with one vote each and one draw I declare this debate a Draw.

My congratulations to both debators for a very well fought debate and once more my thanks to the judges.