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View Full Version : Will the Real Sam Gamgee Please Stand Up?


Barliman Butterbur
03-22-2004, 07:08 PM
I ran across two especially agreeable letters in the Carpenter/Tolkien volume of Tolkien's Letters, which I thought I'd share:

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184 To Sam Gamgee

[On 13 March, a letter was written to Tolkien by a Mr Sam Gamgee of Brixton Road, London S.W.9: 'I hope you do not mind my writing to you, but with reference to your story "The Lord of the Rings" running as a serial on the radio . . . . I was rather interested at how you arrived at the name of one of the characters named Sam Gamgee because that happens to be my name. I haven't heard the story myself not having a wireless but I know some who have. . . . I know it's fiction, but it is rather a coincidence as the name is very uncommon, but well known in the medical profession.]

18 March 1956 As from 76 Sandfield Road, Headington, Oxford
Dear Mr Gamgee,

It was very kind of you to write. You can imagine my astonishment, when I saw your signature! I can only say, for your comfort I hope, that the 'Sam Gamgee' of my story is a most heroic character, now widely beloved by many readers, even though his origins are rustic. So that perhaps you will not be displeased by the coincidence of the name of this imaginary character (of supposedly many centuries ago) being the same as yours. The reason of my use of the name is this. I lived near Birmingham as a child, and we used 'gamgee' as a word for 'cotton-wool'; so in my story the families of Cotton and Gamgee are connected. I did not know as a child, though I know now, that 'Gamgee' was shortened from 'gamgee-tissue', and that named after its inventor (a surgeon I think) who lived between 1828 and 1886. It was probably (I think) his son who died this year, on 1 March, aged 88, after being for many years Professor of Surgery at Birmingham University. Evidently 'Sam' or something like it,* is associated with the family — though I never knew this until a few days ago, when I saw Professor Gamgee's obituary notice, and saw that he was the son of [i]Sampson Gamgee — and looked in a dictionary and found that the inventor was S. Gamgee (1828-86), etc., probably the same.

Have you any tradition as to the real origin of your distinguished and rare name? Having a rare name myself (often troublesome) I am especially interested.

The 'etymology' given in my book is of course quite fictitious, and made up simply for the purposes of my story. I do not suppose you could be bothered to read so long and fantastic a work, but if you could be bothered, I know that the work (which has been astonishingly successful) is in most public libraries. It is alas! very expensive to buy — £3/3/0. But if you or any of your family try it, and find it interesting enough, I can only say that I shall be happy and proud to send you a signed copy of all 3 vols. as a tribute from the author to the distinguished family of Gamgee.

Yrs sincerely,
J.R.R. Tolkien

*My Sam Gamgee is Samwise not Sam(p)son or Samuel.

Mr Gamgee replied on 30 March with more information about his family. He expressed himself delighted at Tolkien's offer of signed volumes. Tolkien sent them, and Mr Gamgee ackowledged their arrival, adding: 'I can assure you that I have every intention of reading them.']

From a letter to Christopher and Faith Tolkien 19 March 1956

I have had a letter from a real Sam Gamgee from Tooting! He could not have chosen a more Hobbit-sounding place, could he? — though unShirelike, I fear, in reality.

Also A. & Unwin send extremely good news or prophesies of probably financial results to come later.

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Barley

Starflower
03-22-2004, 10:54 PM
gosh
I wonder if this Gamgee person ( or his children more likely) still live in Tooting? hmm... *goes off in search of a South London phonebook*......

Barliman Butterbur
03-22-2004, 11:31 PM
gosh
I wonder if this Gamgee person ( or his children more likely) still live in Tooting? hmm... *goes off in search of a South London phonebook*......

If you're serious about making some investigatory calls, let us know what happens!

Barley

Starflower
03-23-2004, 09:27 AM
well haven't found any descendants yet, but an ancestor, Joseph Samspno Gamgee is credited as the father of modern veterinary medicine, he's published books about cows' diseases...

edit: I found a lot of Gamgees in Australia!
http://home.worldoptions.com.au/nadsett/gedcom/dat33.htm#15

Barliman Butterbur
03-23-2004, 05:27 PM
well haven't found any descendants yet, but an ancestor, Joseph Samspno Gamgee is credited as the father of modern veterinary medicine, he's published books about cows' diseases...

Yes, Tolkien mentioned that in the letter I posted.

Mmmmmmmmooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Barley

numen
03-26-2004, 03:49 PM
wow, that is so interesting.
Maybe Mr.Gamgee has still got the signed copies of the books in his family.....

cniht
06-08-2004, 02:14 PM
touching anecdote
signed 3-vol LOTR ! I cannot spend the night without any dream of that!

joxy
06-08-2004, 09:38 PM
Tolkien's earliest explanations, however, are given in letters to his son Christopher, dating 1944:
Is there any explanation in the book of those letters for the reference to "Lamorna jokes"? Does anyone understand that?

Barliman Butterbur
06-09-2004, 06:16 PM
I thought this thread died out long ago! It's nice to see so many great contributions to it! Thanks Walter, especially!

Barley

joxy
06-12-2004, 12:29 AM
Thanks Walter....
Yes, thanks Walter: that was a new one on me.

btw BB: I always thought you owned the Pony, but, as you're only in "lodgings" there, who is the actual owner? :confused:

Barliman Butterbur
06-12-2004, 05:22 AM
Yes, thanks Walter: that was a new one on me.

btw BB: I always thought you owned the Pony, but, as you're only in "lodgings" there, who is the actual owner? :confused:

Ah, joxy, do sit down with me and have a mug o' proper 1420! You seem to understand that "lodgings" implies temporariness. Not atall atall! Those are permanent lodgings — and spacious, airy and luxurious they are too, if you understand me! The Pony was started (indeed built!) by our family generations ago, and we've always lived above the common room!:)

Barley

joxy
06-12-2004, 11:22 PM
Thanks BB, though I'd rather have a tankard, or a glass, if you have them.
Mugs are things that kids have hot drinks from.
I don't understand lodgings as implying temporariness. I know them as implying being rented. Here they are rooms in a building which the owner of the building rents out, for any period of time, to someone else. If the owner and his family live in the building
in which the owner works, then the rooms they live in are usually referred to simply as "the living area".
Once again, two nations divided by a common language! ;)

Eledhwen
06-13-2004, 12:06 AM
I haven't found a Sam yet, but the following list shows that the Gamgee clan seems to have spread quite far and wide....

I found a genealogy record of Alfred Edward Gamgee who is buried at Woodford Cemetery, Caboolture Shire, Queensland, Australia. He died Dec 15th 2001. A Queensland miner called Gamgee shared a claim with a Mr Saltrick who is recorded in mining injuries records for 1893.

I also found Author Prof, Arthur GAMGEE (M: 1841 Oct 10 - 1909 Mar 29) who wrote books on Channel Island cattle.

Some marriages from Boyds Index for Essex:
1816, Rebecca Gamgee & Humphrey Evans
1811 George GAMGEE & Elizabeth HOWARD, Wendon Lofts
1814 John GAMGEE & Elizabeth BAKER, Elmdon
1820 George GAMGEE & Elizabeth PIPE, Elmdon
1822 John GAMGEE & Sarah DIE, Heydon

Americans? How about "zero motor," a 'free energy' machine invented by John Gamgee in 1880. It didn't work, as it violated the 2nd law of thermodynamics; but Gamgee sold it to the U.S. Navy anyway.

The Protestant Cemetery of Florence (the English Cemetery) is the last resting place of Sarah Elizabeth Gamgee, daughter of Joseph and Mary Ann Gamgee, died 24 Nov 34.

Barliman Butterbur
06-14-2004, 04:36 PM
I haven't found a Sam yet, but the following list shows that the Gamgee clan seems to have spread quite far and wide....

Wow, you've been at work! And to go along with all your loving labor, here's a Google search with 68,500 entrees for "gamgee:" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gamgee

Barley

Eledhwen
06-14-2004, 07:14 PM
Wow, you've been at work! And to go along with all your loving labor, here's a Google search with 68,500 entrees for "gamgee:" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gamgee

Barley... and from my own delvings, I can guess that >90% of them are probably for the Tolkien character or his relatives.

I remember doing internet searches before everyone got hooked on the films - it was a lot easier to get useful information. There is still plenty of useful stuff about, of course, but it's finding it amongst all the dross.

Ela Gamgee
12-23-2004, 11:26 AM
Hi, Sam Gamgee was my Great Great Uncle, and I think you might be interested to know that in my house at this moment in time I have two letters from Tolkein and 1 piece of paper telling him about the 3 books! We don't live inTooting anymore, we live all over, some still in London, some in France and some in Wales, I live in Wales and at the moment I am searching my family history. My Gran has the 3 signed books, but 1 isn't in good condition, I just thought you'd like to know! I'm very proud of the fact that we have letters to Sam Gamgee from Tolkein!
Please Post Again or email me at hot_tooth_fairy@hotmail.com (hot_tooth_fairy@hotmail.com)
Ela Gamgee

:p

Barliman Butterbur
12-23-2004, 03:26 PM
Hi, Sam Gamgee was my Great Great Uncle, and I think you might be interested to know that in my house at this moment in time I have two letters from Tolkein and 1 piece of paper telling him about the 3 books! We don't live inTooting anymore, we live all over, some still in London, some in France and some in Wales, I live in Wales and at the moment I am searching my family history. My Gran has the 3 signed books, but 1 isn't in good condition, I just thought you'd like to know! I'm very proud of the fact that we have letters to Sam Gamgee from Tolkein! Please Post Again or email me at hot_tooth_fairy@hotmail.com .

WOW! How neat, and welcome to the Forum! (I took out all the red type because it's so tough to read.) Do you think there's a chance of scanning any of the letters and uploading jpegs of them for our benefit?:)

Barley

Ela Gamgee
12-23-2004, 05:10 PM
I will try yea, but my scanner isn't working atm, I'll try and get it done soon though. I thought you guys would like some information on Sam, if you want any more information I'll try and find it out, I was reading the letters last night suprisingly!
Ela
x

Barliman Butterbur
12-24-2004, 12:24 AM
I will try yea, but my scanner isn't working atm, I'll try and get it done soon though. I thought you guys would like some information on Sam, if you want any more information I'll try and find it out, I was reading the letters last night suprisingly!
Ela
x

We're looking forward! And if scans are too much, perhaps you could just type out what the letters say...?:)

Barley

joxy
12-31-2004, 09:49 PM
We're looking forward!
That includes me, now that I've caught this thread.
Those letters are enormously valuable, but I do hope the owner will share the content with us here.......

Lady_of_Gondor
12-12-2005, 05:04 AM
This is a fantastic and rare opportunity indeed. I hope Ela comes back and posts some more (maybe a pdf of the letters as Barliman suggested). Samwise has always been my favorite of the hobbits because his heart is so pure. It is really neat to think that Tolkien was kind enough to send those letters and books to the family. It's pretty amazing.