Treebeard and Gandalf....but not Radagast

[Beorn]

[Merry:] 'And did you know Gandalf?'
'Yes I do know him: the only wizard that really cares about trees,' said Treebeard. 'Do you know him?'

What about Radagast? Had Radagast not travelled into Fangorn...ever...Or was he more of an animal guy?

[Courtney]

I think Radagast studied birds, mostly. But I would have thought that at some point he'd have come to Fangorn.

[Lantarion]

Yes, I think there's a quote somewhere both in the Sil and in UT that he became 'enamoured with the beasts and birds of Middle-earth', or something. I think he liked the actual living breathing organism-animals more than plants.

[Ståle]

Radagast also probably didn't travel very much that far South. Chances are that Treebeard didn't even know of his existence.

[Greymantle]

Perhaps... but it seems odd that Treebeard would call Gandalf "the only wizard who really cares about trees" if he were only acquainted with two! I would guess that at some point Radagast and Treebeard met... they're both pretty darned old.

[aragil]

Radagast was specially chosen as a member of the Istari by Yavanna to watch after her creations (much as the ents were made to protect her trees). These included beasts and trees- so Treebeard should be more careful about what he says.

[Courtney]

Maybe Treebeard had met Radagast, but was getting forgetful in his old age.:)

[Lantarion]

This is an interesting question actually..
Did Radagast care more for flora or fauna? In UT his name is said to be Adûnaic, meaning 'tender of beasts'.. But what do poeple think?

[Eriol]

Any good ecologist knows that you can't care for the animals without caring for the flora.

Radagast seems to me to be a good ecologist :D. I'm quite sure he cared for trees more than Gandalf.

I think Treebeard's statement is due to the fact that both -- Treebeard and Radagast -- were very "settled", and travelling was very unusual for them. Unlike old Gandalf. I don't see any evidence that Treebeard ever met Radagast. In fact, perhaps he never even heard of him, I think he was already settled in Fangorn when the Istari arrived. (Wasn't the Search for the Entwives in the Second Age? I'm not sure).

Another explanation is that Treebeard was very fond of Gandalf, and Radagast simply slipped from his mind when making his statement. Treebeard is not perfect, you know.

And a third, and perhaps more likely explanation, is that Tolkien was very fond of Gandalf, and Radagast simply slipped from his mind when he was writing that statement. Tolkien is not perfect, you know.

;)

[Lady_of_Gondor]

Thank you! I think that last explanation makes the most sense. The thing that a lot of us here at TTF do is comment on Tolkien's works as if they weren't written by a human being. We almost take them as accounts of reality (that is not to say that we believe them). It is insensible to expect Tolkien's works to be completely consistant. They are nearly consistant, and that's what makes him great. But after all, as it was pointed out, JRR Tolkien was only human!

[Thorin]

Keep in mind as well that Tolkien also created false beliefs and statements by some of his characters even though both HE and the reader knew what was correct. This was not a mistake on Tolkien's part, but rather to let us know that ME is a living thing even beyond his own control. The characters were made to be a part of that creation faults and all, foreknowledge and no knowledge. We are merely spectators in a grand show.

For example, didn't you ever hear Tolkien's comments like, "I don't know where he (Faramir) came from, but as soon as he walked out of the trees, I liked him", and "Bombadil is a mystery", and "As to the Blue Wizards, they passed beyond the knowledge of man and no one knows what happened" (Obvious Thorin paraphrase). The guy created the Blue Wizards and Bombadil! Why can't he say what happened to them or who they are? Doesn't he know, for Pete's sake? But Tolkien made it that way. ME is not a creation, but more like Tolkien is a scribe recording what was already there and the events that took place. What a genius!

My guess is that he made the error on Treebeard's part. But it may not even be an error. There may be some other factors involved that we don't know about that made Treebeard make that statement.

[Eledhwen]

Thorin's right. I found it very interesting reading JRRT's letters that, when replying to some questions, he might say something like "I'll go and find out.." as if Middle Earth was a creation outside of himself that he would have to go and look up the history, geography or whatever before he could answer the question. The fact is that while Tolkien was "Finding out", he was almost certainly looking into the matter philologically so that his answer, like much of his writings, would be derived from the meanings of the words involved.

Also, if Radagast had entered Fangorn Forest, his attention to fauna rather than to flora would not have been wasted on Treebeard, who would have noted him as 'friend', but not particularly a friend of trees, except as habitat.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Eledhwen

Also, if Radagast had entered Fangorn Forest, his attention to fauna rather than to flora would not have been wasted on Treebeard, who would have noted him as 'friend', but not particularly a friend of trees, except as habitat.

But even so he would have a more intimate relationship with trees than Gandalf -- or so I think. I never heard any deep love of impersonal nature being expressed by Gandalf; he was always too busy with the love of people.

[Lantarion]

Good point Eriol. But it sems to me that Gandalf, very unlike Radagast, concentrated on many anomalies or 'topics' at the same time (e.g. Hobbits, Ring-lore, Sauron, apparently trees:rolleyes:, the Elves and Men of Middle-earth) and seemed to like bringing up 'topics' that were not much discussed, like Hobbits, whom nobody else gave half a thought to.
Originally posted by Eledhwen
Thorin's right. I found it very interesting reading JRRT's letters that, when replying to some questions, he might say something like "I'll go and find out.." as if Middle Earth was a creation outside of himself that he would have to go and look up the history, geography or whatever before he could answer the question.
Haha, and I have read somewhere (not from Letters, don't have 'em) that he referred to his work (if you can call it 'work' :)) as something that he did not create, but was already there; and he only snatched at the existing tales and wrote them down, in his mind.

[Malbeth]

Perhaps Treebeard meant Gandalf is the only wizard who cares about trees for themselves, and not as a way to care about animals...

[YayGollum]

Yay for talking about Radagast! Well, from what you people are saying, it looks like the dude was more of an animal fan. Sure, I'll agree with what these other people have to say. Why not? A dude that looks up to Yavannah and happens to be one of her little followers would most probably care more about trees than the evil torturer Gandalf. I'd also say that Treebeard probably just didn't know about the superly cool Radagast dude. They lived pretty far apart and weren't huge fans of travelling all the time. The fact that they're both old doesn't mean that they probably ran into each other.

[BlackCaptain]

I don't think that Radagast had ever been near Fangorn Forest. Mostly just Wilderland. And one can't expect an Ent to know about all the wizards! I also think that Radaghast was just a minor character in LotR, who was just used as a ... reminder (for lack of a better word) for Gandalf at that bree incident

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by Lantarion
It seems to me that Gandalf, very unlike Radagast, concentrated on many anomalies or 'topics' at the same time (e.g. Hobbits, Ring-lore, Sauron, apparently trees:rolleyes:, the Elves and Men of Middle-earth) and seemed to like bringing up 'topics' that were not much discussed, like Hobbits, whom nobody else gave half a thought to.


I believe that each of the Istari were meant to have their own fields of study, and that these were to be melded into shared wisdom when they got together so that the Dark Lord's wisdom could be second-guessed and overthrown. Unfortunately, all but Gandalf buried their heads too deep in their given lore. Gandalf studied the Gondor archives for years before he knew enought to be sure what he was dealing with, but even so, Saruman's greater expertise in ring lore was what made Gandalf seek his advice.

Even so, though he might have lost the plot somewhat, Radagast's heart was not corrupt, and it was his affinity with the birds and beasts that got Gandalf rescued from Orthanc, saving the Quest from failing before it had fully begun.

I would like to know more about Radagast's activities in Middle Earth. He was a member of the White Council, and would have been deeply concerned with the state of the Mirkwood whilst Dol Guldur was active. He may have even been involved in its overthrow, once Saurman had given his permission, and I am certain he became aware of Saruman's destructive tendencies not long after Gandalf was.

Come to think about it, surely a regular visitor to Isengard of Radagast's mindset would not have been able to resist forays under the eaves of Fangorn Forest. Hmmm.

[Eriol]

A good point... were the White Council meetings at Isengard?

I would have thought Lórien would make a better place. First of all, because it's nicer :D. And it is also closer for the guys at Rivendell (Elrond, and quite possibly his sons).

[Eledhwen]

I think Radagast was humble and subordinate, and would have had more meetings with Saruman, the head of his Order, than just when the White Council met.

I don't recollect knowing the venue for the White Council's meetings. I thought Isengard likely because Saruman would not wish to leave his under-construction empire in the hands of orcs and treacherous men while he journeyed to Lorien (the untrustworthy are ever mistrustful). Though if the meeting were not at Isengard, I would have thought Rivendell more likely. Saruman and Galadriel were not the best of friends! I think the last two meetings were at Isengard because Saruman was not in favour of the agenda (at least for the second-last), and would not have put himself out to meet.

[Eriol]

hmm... I think Gandalf was quite humble himself, and he does not seem to pay a visit to Saruman with any frequency. I think the "Head of the Order" title is more a honorific title. Just as "Head of the White Council", by the way. Meaning, he has no authority other than that given to him by his lore and power.

I also don't think there was any open enmity between Galadriel and Saruman. Saruman was very "cagey" -- he may have appeared to be proud and wilful, but not ill-disposed towards Galadriel. After all he was trusted implicitly by Gandalf (who was always full of suspicions)! All of the "suspicions" toawrds Saruman only appeared on hindsight -- before Gandalf's imprisonment he was "a good citizen", if perhaps too proud.

Finally, I don't think the orcs were there by the time of the last meeting of the Council, which, if I recall correctly, was the one that decided to attack Dol Guldur. We should check the Tale of Years for that, but I think Saruman only began to actively breed orcs after this.

[YayGollum]

That Radagast guy was in on the White Council thing? I had no idea. Anyways, it seemed to me to be that he wasn't the biggest fan of travelling all over the place. Probably didn't hang out in one place for very long. Always wanting to get back home. He's cool. No time for Fangorn.

[Malbeth]

hmm... I think Gandalf was quite humble himself, and he does not seem to pay a visit to Saruman with any frequency.

Yes, but remember that according to UT Radagast is directly subordinate to Saruman, while Gandalf is not. I mean, even though Saruman is the head of the order, Radagast and Saruman were sent as a pair, while Gandalf was sent alone.

[Eledhwen]

UT "The Hunt for the Ring" It was at the great Council held in 2851 that the 'Halflings' Leaf' was first spoken of, and the matter was noted with amusement at the time, though it was afterwards remembered in a different light. The Council met in Rivendell...This was the White Council at which Saruman spoke against Gandalf and urged that Dol Guldur should not yet be molested.

Radagast was, of course, forced on Saruman as his 'partner' by Yavanna, who insisted that someone with her heart for ME should accompany Saruman, who was Aule's choice.

[Eriol]

Good catch Eledhwen! I think it is clear then that Radagast's route to the Council did not go near Fangorn.

The only question that remains is whether he visited Saruman with any frequency. I don't have any opinions on that.