Round 1 Judging - Helcaraxë vs Elfarmari

[Ithrynluin]

Aside from myself, the judges will probably be Beorn and Grond, being the only ones not picked yet by the other two hosts for this round. And Turgon has disappeared.

Seems to me like debators are losing the zest or/and time for debating...

Judgement should follow in a couple of days...

[Elfarmari]

Hello? Anyone there? :confused:

[Nóm]

I was asked by ithrynluin to judge this debate. Or rather, I suggested myself. :D


Helcaraxe says Finarfin was right because:

1) Had he not returned, his followers would have been caught in the ruin of the WotJ. Elfamari says he could have done much good in exile. More on this below.

2) The race of Noldor would have been utterly ruined had Finarfin not ruled some in Tirion. Elfamari goes on to destroy this by pointing out not all Noldor orignally left Tirion.

3) There was little he and his people could have done against Morgoth had they gone. Elfamari argues the wisdom of Finarfin would have been of help in Beleriand, eventually Helecaraxe admits that Finarfin might have done some good there, but claims it would not matter in the end, as the exiled Noldor were doomed to ruin without Valarin intervention. Even Finarfin himself would have perished, Helcaraxe says. This arguement proved to be the heart of the debate. Here it came down to this: Was the life saved in Finarfin's turning back a greater good than what Finarfin might have done through wisdom and subtle influence in Beleriand? Had one of them been able to convince over the other, that debator would have the victory. But no one did this. I am not sure if one of them could have done this given it was a comparison of history with a might-have-been. Helcaraxe could have dismissed Elfamari's might-have-been and insisted that Finarfin's action be judged on other terms, but he/she chose to argue against it instead. Sadly, at one point, Helcaraxe denies the wisdom of an action should be judged by motive, and I wonder if he/she forgot this was about what was the right choice, not what was wise. Was it right? Defining "right" here, could have potentially been a debate in itself, but as it happened this wasn't really questioned.

Some other points of Elfamari...

Elfamari argued that action, and not inaction! was needed at this time in history. However, this point really goes nowhere in the debate, but Helcaraxe says action, and not rash action was needed.

Elfamari also questioned the motive of Finarfin. If the protection of his people was his motive, why did he wait until after the kinslaying to turn back? Unfortunately the point about Finarfin's motive didn't come to anything either way.

Elfamari states that those who followed Finarfin could have turned back without him! Helcaraxe doesn't prove otherwise.

She also says that had Finarfin not returned at that point, he might have later persuaded even more Noldor to return. Helcaraxe reasons that if it would have been good to turn back, then it was was indeed good to have turned back in the first place.

A different mix of reasoning and approach was taken in the debate, and it didn't really go anywhere. I judge it to be a draw.

[Ithrynluin]

I think Helcaraxë makes a good first argument for Finarfin not to have gone into exile. He juxtaposes the good and the bad of his hypothetical departure, and he makes it quite clear that Finarfin would have been enmeshed in the hopeless doom and curse upon the Noldor, and adds that the people of Finarfin weren't that numerous to begin with (the part of his people that returned to Valinor, I don't mean the whole of his people). Therefore Helcaraxë presents this going-to-war-against-Morgoth aspect of Finarfin's not going very well. However, he does not tackle the 'moral' aspect, whether Finarfin should have followed the majority of his people or not, etc...Which I think is quite an important factor...but nevermind, moving on...

Elfarmari strikes up a nice reply, in which I was especially impressed with the Finarfin-Finrod comparison and her examples of what Finarfin could have done, had he come to Middle-Earth. Interesting stuff!

I think I'll also have to settle for a draw. Sorry you guys, you were both very good, and I'm sure one of you would have emerged victorious, had the debate been longer and spanned over more issues. After each of you presented their case, I felt the arguments going in circles.

[Helcaraxë]

Now I'm starting to sweat... ;)

[Elfarmari]

Is this debate judging ever going to be completed???

[Helcaraxë]

It seems the whole tournament has died. :eek: :confused:

[Aulë]

Is anyone planning on being the third judge for this?
I think we need to give Elfarmari and Helcaraxë some closure over the matter! ;)

[Ithrynluin]

I think Beorn forgot about judging this...so any volunteers? How 'bout you, Rog?

[Aulë]

If Beorn isn't up for it, I'm sure I could give it a shot some time after Tuesday.

[Beorn]

Yeah, I forgot :o . I'll work on it now then post my judgement.

EDIT: I'm keeping this short and to the point.

I'm surprised no one included these quotes:
(In response to Oath of Feanor)
But Finarfin spoke softly, as was his wont, and sought to calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone;


But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor. There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the Valar, since not all of them had been guiltless of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on, and swiftly the evil that was foretold began its work.

Helcaraxe pointed out that in turning back, Finarfin avoided the Doom of the Noldor and the Oath of Feanor, and avoided all that killing/dying/war/negative stuff later on. That was a very strong point, and originally made me think it was impossible that anyone else could win the debate. Initially, I thought whoever argued it was the correct decision would win, merely because it was obviously correct...BUT...

Elfarmari pointed out something which I felt strongly countered Helcaraxe's offense: Camaraderie. Brotherhood. "I am arguing that is would have been right for him to go with his people to Middle-earth and to help them as best he could."....."Fingolfin's decision to go to Middle-earth was right because only in this way could he remain with his people and help and protect them by counsel or might."

I feel that Elfarmari's point of standing together, even if it meant dying together is better than going back to Tirion, although neither of the other judges addressed it changed my mind as to who would win. Elfarmari has provided an unopposed piece of evidence which I feel strongly outweighs Helcaraxe's offense. Elfarmari is the winner in my opinion.

[Ithrynluin]

This concludes that with 2 votes against 1, Elfarmari is the victor of this debate. Congratulations!

And congrats, Helcaraxë, for putting up a good fight, and an interesting read to boot.

[Elfarmari]

Thank you, Beorn, for finishing the judging! And thanks, Helcaraxë, for a great debate, even if it did take a while to judge. . . :D

[Helcaraxë]

I've been gone all summer, but I have returned at long last. Well debated, Elfi.